View Full Version : My 351W buildup.

02-23-2011, 09:05 PM
I just got a vintage '69 351W engine. And since my goal to to make it on the BCM time board (the one that is on the home page). I need to start looking at a set up that will get me there.

I have the engine just need heads, intake, cam, pistons, rods, and well you get the idea. Stoke and bore, leave it and go for a HCI combo? Any ideas from some of the pros here?

I have dreams to run a turbo later on but with all the parts need to get it finished n2o sounds like a little more in the budget. But I was hearing that you build a turbo motor and run it with nitrous.

This is what it is going in and what it currently has.

1965 Mustang
C4 transmission with shift kit and fresh rebuild with red bands
2000 stall TC
9" with 4.10:1 gears
90/10 front shocks
50/50 rear shocks
Cal Tracs
Stock rear leafs
Subframe connectors/ driveshaft safety loop (Thanks Ron)
A1000 pump
5 gallon cell
Rear mounted battery
235/60r15 MT drag radials

Its gutted as much I can bring myself to do it. I am thinking 2900# with driver.

Most of of these parts are BS for the question but it might clear up the question a bit. 10s are really expensive but so if I aim for low 11 and some practice I might make my dream of getting on the board happen.

02-23-2011, 09:17 PM
Whats the budget, and is it a dedicated race car or pump gas street terror?

Are you concerned with "semi-frequent" maintenance or are you a "set it and forget it" guy?

02-23-2011, 09:41 PM
Well I have a budget of 5500 for the engine, and another 1000 for misc parts, like hardware, plumbing and other BS.

I am looking at a tear down every year. So anual-frequent lol. Pump gas if I could but race gas if needed.

Was looking at the DSS 408 and Victor Jr for heads.

Prince Valiant
02-25-2011, 04:22 PM
Well, for the moment, there doesn't seem to be a list to get on :D

But, obviously you want to be fast...still not sure if you want street/strip, STREET/strip, or street/STRIP. I always tend to go for the most streetable, and my definition of streetable is much more conservative than many of the fastest cars. The following recipe should be good for hitting the high 11's, low 12's all motor:

As far as stroker vs stocked cubed, depends on intended usage...if track only, stick to stock cubes (cheaper) and just get more nitrous. If street/strip, I like more cubes just since it'll make any combo easier to live with.

408 ci...obviously find a kit that uses the appropriate material and design depending on how much nitrous you wish to run. If you're sticking around 150 shot, most forged kits should be fine. Going higher, you might want pistons designed for even more severe duty. Obviously think of investing in a cap girdle, use quality fasteners, probably studs for the main caps and depending on the shot you want to run, studs for the heads. Again, depending on how fast you want to go, how much nitrous you wish to use, perhaps filling the block to the water jackets with hard-blok is worth it...for what I'm putting down and assuming no more than a 150 shot, it should be fine with stock caps, studs, girdle. Plan on getting a quality oil pump (high pressure, not high volume), baffled, with a good pick-up...definitely budget for windage tray and crank scraper. I don't know off hand, but make sure that there are no common oiling mods that need to be done to windsors for high rpm applications...I don't think so for the level you're looking at, as windsors are typically stout engines.

11.0:1=12.0:1 compression ratio (should be okay w/ pump gas with AL heads and big cam)

Heads: Shoot for heads with increased runner volume...205 cc minimum, 215 probably preferable. Obviously flow is important, as well as price...more cubes though need more runner volume. Make sure the pistons work with whatever style combustion chamber you pick (open vs. closed....I favor closed combustion chambers generally). If looking at flow, you'll want a minimum of 280 cfm out of the box...at the size runners we're looking at, that shouldn't be a problem.

camshaft: Budget, it might make more sense to stick with a mechanical flat tappet. Solid roller would be the "best" but could be hard to live with on the street...again, if you don't mind frequent lash adjustments and the cost, you'll definitely get great power out of it. You COULD get away with a big HYD cam, but it might limit you more than you'd like....advantage though is easiest to live with, cheapest to buy and buy valvetrain for.

for the mechanical cams, I'd probably shoot for 254-ish @ .050 lift, with a 106 lsa...lifts will be what they are.
the hydraulic flat tappet one, around 248 @ .050, again, narrowest lsa you can get...106, 108 is likely what you'd find.

Intake: Big single plane.

Carb: 750 cfm minimum w/ mechanical secondaries, 850 would be perfect.

Ignition: lock out the timing...no need for any advance. Probably setting the timing around 32-34 degrees if using closed chambered heads/flat-top pistons.

Headers: 1 3/4 diameter minimum...1 7/8th better.

Converter: 9 inch, stalling around 3,800-4,200rpm ideally.

Gears: 4:10's should be fine.

But the above, at 2900# should easily hit 11's all motor.

All in all, I'd utilize and source as much as I could from Ron's shop...obviously he's been there and done that. Given your budget, I'm sure he can put something together that would get you to the number you want to run. Hell, he could probably get you the number for less than half what you're looking to spend, lol.

02-27-2011, 02:36 PM
I can get a set of heads that might fit the bill. But I do not know how street worth are they. I was offered a set of early Yates C3 heads. This would change my pistons because of the canted valves. And well once you port the heads I am thinking that you are building a serious engine. But putting them on a stock 351 block is sort of a waste, because they really wake around 7000 and when in the world would anyone be driving around town with that under the hood.

Prince Valiant
02-27-2011, 07:28 PM
I would say that given the capability of ported C3 heads, you'd probably want to use it on a stroker for sure...and probably a 420+ ci for ones if you get considerable port work. And it sounds like the C3's are nothing too special unless ported...so I don't know. Sounds like they wouldn't be too good unless you paid good money to get them ported, and then they'd likely be overkill.

Have you decided if you're going stroker or not? What are you planning to budget for heads?

02-27-2011, 07:59 PM
Yeah that is what I am reading so far, unported and they flow worse than Victor JR, port them and I'm looking at overkill.

So its a catch 22.

Still looking at the Victor Jr as a possible head and a good set of Probe pistons, Eagle rods and reuse the stock crank after a clean up and cut.


Probe pistons
Eagle H rods
Stock crank
High Performance Oil pump
Canton Oil pan
gear drive timing
Comp cams, SK35-330-3
Victor Jr heads
Victor Jr intake
750 CFM C&S carb
All clevite bearings
and what else I might have forgotten

I would try to source as much as I could through Ron. And this would be mild setup that I wouldn't kill my C4 and still be streetable.

Prince Valiant
02-27-2011, 08:11 PM
Sounds like a good recipe really...a good budget one too. Should be able to hit the 12's fairly solidly all engine...and if you do go with a 200 shot, enough to scare the bejeezus out you, lol.

Do you know your compression ratio? Make sure you have stout enough HG/fasteners to live with the shot you're planning. Should be a cool car!

02-28-2011, 09:42 AM
I have just a few thoughts Greg. I dont know about your gas down there but every now and then I will get a bad tank of 93 octane and spark knock at 11:1 CR, there is no way I would consider 12:1 on pump gas. The camshaft is the brain of your engine, after running my custom cam, the cam is the last thing I would skimp on. If you went with a solid roller and quality valvetrain components you will most likely be checking your valve lash but not needing much adjustmemt, however you can make very nice power with a hydraulic roller also. Keep in mind that C4 has no OD so if you do alot of highway driving that may be an issue, may want to look at an AOD/4R70W swap? I wouldnt bother filling that block, as you know the C9's are the toughest they made and your 500-600fwhp on the bottle isnt gonna hurt that block if the tune is good. Is there a reason you want that gear drive? I would go with a quality timing chain set such as the Rollmaster Red set, no problems there. Lastly, myself personally, I would not lock out the timing on a street car. Do you really want to be sitting in traffic and a red light at full advance? With today's distributors there is no reason to do it on a street car when you can accurately dial in the advance to how you want it.

Youve seen my car, very close to the same cubes, custom hydraulic roller cam, AFR heads, Vic. Jr intake with a QF750 carb. It weighs 3370# with me in it and I have run 11.17@126 with it, I have a 10 second car with an 11 second driver. At 2900# your goals are a little slow I think.

You may want to snoop around at hardcore50.com for some excellent info.

02-28-2011, 06:11 PM
That is some good info Danno.

It is a safe bet that this car will never see the freeway. So as a dual purpose car that much will be limited. So I am safe with the C4 as my transmission. Plus C4 can be a good transmission if properly built.

Again I agree with the cam and valvetrain. This is one part that is the most understood and if picked wrong it can KILL the engine. Power band, torque converter, and rear gear are all based off the cam. Custom cam might be the way to go.
I just dont know yet. The gear drive was a thought and most likely wont happen.

My boss wants me to take some of his racing parts off his hands. The only thing he doesnt have is a crank. The problem is this engine would be overkill, Yates heads, blocked 351 SVO block, Ross pistons, Crower rods, Jesel valvetrain and shit load more. I asked him if I get away with some street and he paused for a minute and replied "lol sure anything can be driven on the street". It was the pause that was the real answer. And if I remember right that engine was pushing 750 at the flywheel. In a stock 65 it would tear it apart, unless Ron would brace it everyway till Sunday. Not to mention this is running with 8.5 drag radial.

I never got to see your car close up just the once at coops and at the car show as you were leaving. But if Im up by Wausaw I would like to come by and look at it a bit closer.