View Full Version : Cutoff point . . .

04-15-2004, 01:09 AM
So where exactly does one draw the line between Old School and new School muscle? To me basically I think new school is not having a carb :rolleyes: What do you think?

Prince Valiant
04-15-2004, 01:36 AM
I not big on having hard cut-off points as some may be...I agree that fuel injection should certianly rule one out.

However, since retrofitting fuel injection or complete fuel injected motors is big it's hard to even use that anymore...

...I say it kind of comes down to both the shape and the powerplant.

A 66 nova with an LT1 swap would qualify as an old school muscle...

...an 85 mustang GT with the carbed 302 does not...

...a 86 Olds Cutlass Supreme 442 would be a "definite maybe" however. (I do consider it old school...w/ reservations)

...a 4th gen camaro with 454 carbed large block does not...

....a 79 little red express (truck) does...

...a 91 454SS does not...

...a 1976 Valiant 4 door does not....no matter the powerplant....

...a 68 two door valiant does....provided it has 4 barrel carb, dual exhaust minimum....

As you can see...kind of got to go by feel...and with your gut.

Would your car? IMO not really...it would be a definite tweener for sure. In b/w new school and real muscle cars(as I would call it). But the shape is a little on the "modern" side of the equation (whereas an olds/monte/GP have the non-aero principles incorporated into their designs) but certianly it's powerplant could be quite evocative of "old school" (IE:real) muscle cars.

04-15-2004, 02:21 AM
The whole muscle car vs. whatever else is purely subjective. Many true old school guys think anything muscle stopped in the early 70's and they have their points. Many argue cars like the Turbo Regals can't be muscle because its a V-6 and EFI even though they obviously perform. I'm sure some do not consider f-bodies muscle besides the 1st gens and early 2nd gens....they are sort of pony cars along with Mustangs, which is not a knock. More of a handling/power mix and somewhat of a smaller car(besides 4th gen f-bodies) or at least thats how one might think of them.

IMO a real muscle car is balls to the wall torque and an old fashioned carb(ok any carb) and V-8, after that theres sub categories. No fancy options or even A/C sometimes :D. *80's muscle* is what I consider like what I have, easy enough to make perform with a better motor ;) and have the platform and style for it, Pony cars, *late model muscle* like LT1/LS1's and not sure how the SC'ed 3.8 cars fit in, being FWD. Hard for me to consider FWD *muscle* as fast as some of them are getting :wow . I'm sure some consider Neon SRT-4's muscle because they perform too, but theres a line somewhere in there where people make their own judgement :). Hope I don't offend anyone, no harm meant if I don't consider a car muscle, fast is fast.

Makes for a good conversation or argument for sure!

04-15-2004, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Prince Valiant

Would your car? IMO not really... Well don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for validation or anything, just starting conversation;) IMO the "muscle" era died when Big Blocks became exticnt and people started to worry about silly things like fuel mileage and comfort. IMO a true old school muscle car measures gallons per mile, feels like you are riding in a boat being dragged along the ground, and is almost really the scariest thing you have ever driven:thumbsup I mean how much talent did it take to drive a car with manual non-rack steering, standard radial or bias ply tires, manual brakes (be it drum or disc), maunal trans (with no syncros mind you:eek: ) and a massive engine puttin almost 400 to the wheels:stare and still have the balls to be fast? Sounds like fun to me!

Just a topic, thats all:shades

Prince Valiant
04-15-2004, 05:28 PM
It really is such a subjective term that people oftentimes like to act all funny about...sometimes getting bent out of shape.

Part of it is what YOU as a person simply WANTS to be identified with or as...

04-15-2004, 05:30 PM
true, just thought it would be interesting to see what others thought here;)

Rocket Power
04-15-2004, 09:04 PM
I would say my 64 is old school:goof
maybe the 86 is an " Old School tribute" car since it has an Old school big block wrapped in a "medium" school body:D

Prince Valiant
04-16-2004, 12:13 AM
Here's some of the muscle car clubs definitions of what is a TRUE muslce car:

strictest definition
A muscle car, by the strictest definition, is an intermediate sized, performance oriented model, powered by a large V8 engine, at an affordable price. Most of these models were based on "regular" production vehicles. These vehicles are generally not considered muscle cars, even when equipped with large V8s. If there was a high performance version available, it gets the credit, and not the vehicle that it was based on.

Examples: Buick GS, Chevrolete Chevelle SS, Dodge Charger R/T, Ford Torino/Cobra, Plymouth GTX, Plymouth Road Runner, Oldsmobile 442, Pontiac GTO

Full-size Muscle Car
The strict definition only includes intermediate size vehicles. In reality, performance oriented intermediate size vehicles didn't appear until 1964. Before then, manufacturers took existing fullsize vehicles and added extra performance to them. Because of this, the early fullsize performance vehicles are generally considered muscle cars.

Examples: Chevrolet Impala (SS only), Ford Galaxie (with 390 + cid engines only), Dodge Coronet (R/Ts only), etc

Pony Cars and Compact Cars
In addition to fullsize and intermediate muscle cars, a number of smaller vehicles started appearing on the automotive performance scene. These new "pony cars" and compact cars are generally considered muscle cars only if they have the top of the line performance engines and options.

Examples: Chevrolet Camaro (SS and Z28 models only), Ford Mustang (GTs and Boss only), Plymouth 'Cudas (no Barracudas), AMC Javelin, etc.

Personal Luxury Cars and Luxury Cars
Although there were several personal luxury vehicles with performance engines and options, their heavy weight and high sticker prices went against the low cost performance definition of muscle cars. Therefore, they are not considered muscle cars.

Examples: Buick Riviera, Chrysler 300 Letter Cars, Pontiac Grand Prix, etc.

Two Seat Sports Cars
Two seat sports cars such as the Chevrolet Corvette and the Ford Thunderbird are not considered muscle cars due to their high price and specialty nature. The only exception is the AMC AMX as it was relatively cheap, and was based on the AMC Javalin pony car.
It should be noted that there is an error...they list the cornet R/T as full-size but the roadrunner as intermediate...they are same model, different nameplate. Same wheelbase, same weights, same everything virtually. I think they may have been thinking of something like the sporst furry or Hurst 300

Prince Valiant
04-16-2004, 12:16 AM
They provide a breakdown of the many of the cars here (The YES/NO answers the question of "Is it a muscle car?"):

AMC AMX Yes Pony Car Even though it only has two seats, because it is based on the Javalin, it is a muscle car

Buick GS Yes Intermediate Muscle Car Based on Buick Skylark

Buick Riviera No Personal Luxury Car Too expensive and big

Buick Wildcat No Fullsize Car Too large

Chevrolet Camaro Yes Pony car Only SS and Z28 models are considered muscle cars

Chevrolet Chevelle SS Yes Intermediate Muscle Car Only SS versions are considered muscle cars

Chevrolet Chevelle (non-SS) No Intermediate Only SS versions are considered muscle cars

Chevrolet Corvette No Sports Car The two seats, fiberglass body, and high price make it a sports car.

Chevrolet Impala SS Yes Fullsize Muscle Car Only SS versions are considered muscle cars

Chevrolet Monte Carlo No Personal Luxury Too expensive

Chevrolet Nova Yes Compact Car Only
SS versions are considered muscle cars

Chrysler 300 Letter Cars No Personal Luxury Way too expensive and luxurious

Dodge Challenger Yes Pony Car Only R/T versions are considered muscle cars

Dodge Charger Yes Intermediate Muscle Car Only R/T versions are considered muscle cars

Dodge Coronet Yes Fullsize Muscle Car Only R/T versions are considered muscle cars

Dodge Dart Yes Compact Only Darts with 383 or 440 engines are considered muscle cars

Dodge Daytona Yes Specialty Muscle Cars -

Dodge Super Bee Yes Intermediate Muscle Car -

Ford Fairlane / Torino GT/Cobra Yes Intermediate Muscle Car Only GT and Cobra models are considered muscle cars

Ford Galaxie Yes Fullsize muscle Only Galaxies with 390 engines or larger are considered muscle cars

Ford Mustang Yes Pony Car GTs, Mach 1's and Boss Mustangs are considered muscle cars

Mercury Comet / Cyclone Yes Intermediate Only GTs and Cyclones are considered muscle cars

Mercury Cougar Yes Pony Car Only GTs, Eliminators, and Boss engine models are considered muscle cars

Oldsmobile 442 Yes Intermediate Muscle Car -

Oldsmobile Cutlass No Intermediate Only 442 models are considered muscle cars

Plymouth Barracuda No Pony car Only 'Cuda models are considered muscle cars

Plymouth 'Cuda Yes Pony car 'Cudas with 340s are generally not considered muscle cars

Plymouth Duster Yes Compact Muscle Car Only Dusters with 340s are considered muscle cars

Plymouth GTX Yes Intermediate Muscle Car -

Plymouth Road Runner Yes Intermediate Muscle Car -

Plymouth Superbird Yes Specialty Muscle Car -

Pontiac Catalina 2+2 Yes Fullsize Muscle Car Only Catalinas with 400+ cid engines are considered muscle cars

Pontiac Firebird Yes Pony Car Only Firebirds with 400 cid engines are considered muscle cars

Pontiac Grand Prix No Personal Luxury Too expensive

Pontiac GTO Yes Intermediate Muscle Car The first true muscle car

Prince Valiant
04-16-2004, 12:30 AM
I disagree with the contention that high power intermediates didn't appear until 64 though...

The first B-body mopar's came out in 1962 as the plymouth fury (The fury would change names to the belvedere later and the fury name would again be utilized in true full size's again) and were on significantly shorter wheelbases than the cars they replaced (109 vs the typical 116 IIRC) and would form the basis for the road runner, cornet, super bee, charger later on...so they were most definitely midsizes.

That plus you had your choice of two 361 large block with either single 4bbl or 2 4bbl's on cross ram induction manifold, not one, but several 383 large blocks that utilized either a single 4 bbl, 2 4 bbl's on cross ram induction manifold, or 2 4 bbl mounted inline, then you could choose several 413's...a single 4bbl, or two "max wedge" motors rated at 390, 415 and then 425hp. ALL the motors above were rated 300-350hp

Thing was, they did NOT have "the look" of the GTO so while the powertrains were second to none during the time, they didn't catch the imagination of the youths like the GTO would.

No doubt that both the plymouth version and dodge version were left out of the list, dodging the quesiton of if it is or isn't a "muscle car"

In any event...I think that's why hard-set definitions do little if anything to clear the issue up as to what a true muscle car is or isn't.

04-16-2004, 09:50 PM
THIS is old school!

04-17-2004, 01:01 AM
That is one hell of a long list Chris:goof

05-11-2004, 02:54 PM
Would an 86 Mercury Capri be considered an old school muscle car/ pony car?

05-11-2004, 04:25 PM
Would an 86 Mercury Capri be considered an old school muscle car/ pony car?
Pony car - since it is basically a Mustang.

07-26-2004, 11:00 PM
i own 3 dodge challengers (almost the same as a plymouth cuda but subtle differences on almost every damn part!)

and i own 2 dodge chargers.

2 of my dodge challengers are 440's. putting out 390 horses. the first one is a 4 speed.

the other i just got done hauling home from missouri, is a 318.

the charger's are 440's also, yes i have a weird thing for big blocks :)

this 318 is built big time, it hauls, nothing like the torque and horsepower of a 440, but i was actually surprised at how the thing hauled ass!
to be truthful, ive probably driven 2 small block "muscle car era im talking here" cars ive owned no small blocks until recently, unless you count "modern cars", i always put out for the big blocks with the 6 pack off the show room floor.

back in 1970 i bought a dodge challenger 440 6 pack... R/T and oh yea it was a convertible, i dont know how much i paid... probably 3500 or something in that area, i sold it in 1984 for 8500 dollars thinking i made a killing... 20 years later im kicking my self in the face every other day when i see the damn things selling for $100,000 + ive seen hard top all original go for $80,000 with a 440 6 pack.
then just tack on another 15-30,000 on the time of sale if it has a hemi (all original that is)

i hate myself for the cars i sold back in the day, but im getting back :) i own more muscle cars now then i ever did before.

07-26-2004, 11:09 PM
also, you cant tell me that a dodge challenger that isnt in the R/T version cant be a muscle car, thats just crappy.

i feel any challenger that was V8 was muscle.

hell just the body of it gives the feeling of "oooh muscle"

if its in the Ralley set up or not i dont think it matters the cars had the style of muscle and the horsepower ratings for most of the V8's were pretty nice then compared to cars now :/

but i can understand some of you guys thinking a big block 440 6 pack (three 2 barrel carbs in a line) with a mpg area of like 8-10, but with the companies out there now, they can make a little small block 318/340/360 make huge horsepower.

what would you consider that modified muscle?

07-29-2004, 02:52 PM
81 camaro? old school? 82..id say no..not in stock form anyhow

08-10-2004, 10:18 PM
THIS is old school!

Better pic....


08-11-2004, 08:29 PM
boy I tell you whut, dat's a nice lookin' autermobile right thar! Lookie how all dat silver shines in the sunlight.
Thanks for taking the pics Scales, they look a MILLION times better than that "photographer's"

08-11-2004, 10:45 PM
Yeah, I thought you might like em. :thumbsup I'm really impressed with how they turned out!!

09-27-2004, 05:14 PM
Any one that would try to tell me my car wasn't a Muscle Car, I'd say "get in, shut up, and hold on!". But we're all intitled to our own opinoin.

1966 Chevelle 300 4 door. 355ci sbc 450+hp NA. 600hp W/NOS

Just MY opinoin
:newbie :kennygun: :haveabeer :party: