Syclone broke again, looking for suggestions

[Syclone0044]

Last week Monday I took the truck to HWY and on the way home got on it a few times, came to the road near my house and stood on it one last time, shifted into 2nd and it suddenly let loose and ran right to the rev limiter... :mad: I knew something was f~cked so I nursed it home and checked it out, nothing on the dipstick, fluid is good but there is no 2nd or 4th gear now. On a 700-R4 those two are provided via applying "the band" to the best of my knowledge, so something must have let loose there (especially the way it was solid all night and then just let go in the middle of WOT after a shift).

Those that have been around a while know that my truck has suffered 95% downtime over the last 2 years due to tranny bullshit, and while I'm one of the most patient and persistent guys I know, this is nearing the limit of what I'm willing to handle. I have blown hundreds and hundreds of hours of my time doing difficult tranny work and R&Ring the damn thing a few times and R&Ring the pan and governor 20 times a piece which gets old and by now I pretty much hate the smell/feel/taste (!) of automatic tranny fluid.

I tried hard to spend money wisely to get the best 700R4 Overdrive automatic Lockup converter'ed transmission I could get so the truck remains 100% stock drivability and I can do the 10,000 miles worth of cruising/racing I normally do in a year, and be able to still race at Road America , etc. I didn't want to do a TH400 or any of the stronger/cheaper 3spd trannys out there because I know it would kill a lot of the fun of this truck and transform it from a fun all around street warrior into a drag car - and this truck makes a really shltty drag car.

So now I got some options and I'm trying to decide what to do.

1.) I can pull this tranny out, and send it back to the builder and probably get warranty replacement in 2-3 months timeframe and hope it lasts this time. The tranny never really worked 100% correct but it's "pretty close" , just has some annoying upshift/downshifting problems due to improper calibration that may or may never be solved.

2.) I can ask for my money back (the builder had mentioned this as an option) and just cut my ties with him and start from scratch with someone else and hope it doesn't turn into another year-long hassle from hell from someone who doesn't understand how a turbo V6 can out-torque the almighty N/A small blocks he's used to :rolleyes: I did find a decent guy out of Washington called Pro-Built Automatics that had a great "10 second capable 700-R4" reputation and I called the guy and he seemed pretty receptive to my concerns. But said it would take 2-3 months to build and he admitted to having no Syclone experience.

3.) I can give up on trying to have a fun stock-driving fast streetable car and go with a TH400 which requires new converter, shifter, lengthened front driveshaft and shortened rear driveshaft, crossmember modifications, 3.08 gear installation front and rear diffs to make it through the traps, etc. This would take a lot of the fun out of the truck but watching it collect dust in my garage with a broken 700R4 isn't a lot of fun either.

4.) I can try spending a ton of $ and attempt doing a 4L80E which is sort of like a modern, electronic, overdrive/lockup TH400 but involves a computerized transmission controller, along with the driveshaft mods, crossmember mods, custom $1100 converter, etc. And all the fooling around that goes with being a "guinea pig" for a new project. But it sounds really strong.

I really wish I could just get a 700R4 that works like my stock one did, and forget about all this, but no matter how hard I try that doesn't seem to be happening.

5.) Or I could just let the truck sit and buy something else to occupy my need for speed while I wait for a solid transmission solution to be developed for the Syclone/Typhoons. :(

Thoughts?? Ideas?? I love the truck but I'm not a transmission builder nor a magician and some things that sound like an easy idea/solution just turn out to be damn near impossible after years of trying to prove otherwise.... :fire

[Syclone0044]

Oh one other thing (can't seem to edit original post), It did run fast for a short while.. I gave a bunch of rides, and decided to go to the track, changed spark plugs the day before and must have screwed something up in one of the plugs or wires because it picked up a WOT misfire that caused the boost and RPM to both fluctuate , killing top end.. (MPH was down a bunch) Wish I would have tested it more thoroughly before going to the track (or never changed a thing after it was already running well), but since I fixed the false knock problem it's more consistent than it ever was, even with the misfire it still ran a string of 11.9s (5). Would have been nice to get a chance to set some new best times tho.

[GRNDNL]

Jimmy's Transmissions
888 B. Tower Road
Mundelein, IL 60060

847-949-7507

I don't know much about 700R's but I would think about dumping the lock-up convertor, there really hard on 200R's....It would be much quicker with a non-lockup 9 inch......

[Crawlin]

4L80E

go big, go beefy, HAHAHA.

**** the TH400 in your truck. it's not a FULL race vehicle. it'll lessen your enjoyment to be honest. i'm not saying i don't like driving my car, and i like the consistency at the track. but it hinders my desire to just go out and take a drive sometimes.

[HITMAN]

Yeah, right, fu<k the TH400. Totally undrivable. Whatever did we old-schoolers do without a fourth gear and an overdrive?... :rolleyes:

[0TransAm0]

sell it to me :)

[Crawlin]

Yeah, right, fu<k the TH400. Totally undrivable. Whatever did we old-schoolers do without a fourth gear and an overdrive?... :rolleyes:


:yawn: what an idiot. i said **** the Th400 in HIS TRUCK. cause i know what he likes and what he WANTS to do with the truck. And to enjoy the truck to it's FULL potential i know he wouldn't want that in it. Again, another useless comment. That's a problem with you "oldschoolers" who want to relive the past, you ignore the future and the benefits of it. Then again, if they are so good, then why didn't you toss one in your LS1 right away? No where did it say undrivable. **** that was my original plan to have the TH350 in my car. And I'm glad i have it.

If he can get an overdrive, WHY NOT HAVE IT. Toss a 4L80E in there, get the TH400 strength and an overdrive. Welcome to technology, where you CAN have your cake an eat it too.

[Syclone0044]

Yeah, right, fu<k the TH400. Totally undrivable. Whatever did we old-schoolers do without a fourth gear and an overdrive?... :rolleyes: Now honestly I'm not sure if you're recommending the TH400 or just wanting to joust with CrawlinZ? :confused If you're recommending it; I have a few questions:

Do you know if I can enjoy normal automatic shifting even during part throttle boost conditions when the vacuum modulator would surely be recieving 0"hg signal (or more)?

Would it be suitable for use at Road America?

Do you expect the gas mileage would suffer to the point that I can't still drive it to Chicago or Kansas City as I tend to do at least once a year?

Can I still allow my friends/family to drive it on rare occasion?

[Crawlin]

see.... guess i was right on MY recommendation for HIM

gotta know the guy before you start opening the flaps. but then again, you just like being an asshole

[Syclone0044]

Now now ;) I wasn't trying to sound facetious asking those questions - they are legitimate concerns I have in considering the TH400.

[animal]

I voted for the TH. I know in the past you've explained to me why you didn't want to go that route and that has it's merits as well.

I really tend to take the route that'll give me the least headache in the long run. The TH is tried and true as and will likely stand up to whatever you're going to throw at it. Obviously going to cost some coin for you no matter what but I'd even take the 3 spd if there wasn't a bulletproof trans available for the L. You could go the 4L80E route too, but guinea pig = headache as far as I'm concerned.

A question is: is it just THIS 700 that's problematic or are you in reality just making too much power for that particular transmission to last long? If it's the latter, I'd strongly suggest either not trying another one, or back down your power and be happy within that tranny's limits. Once you get to a certain power level though you're just going to have to make certain sacrifices imho (TH400) or spend a TON of money and time to overcome them (4L).

Do you get any options for larger tires so you could still run a decent gear ratio if you chose the 3spd route?

I can't answer those tech questions for you about the TH, and perhaps their answers could even rule it out as an option for you.

I know it wasn't what you wanted to hear but suggestions were asked for.

[y2kws6]

I you would like it rebuilt I know a certified serviceman. PM though. He can at least give you a quote.

Dan

[BOSS LX]

Rebuild it, turn down the boost, and use it to tow your mustang to the track! :wooo

[Car Guy]

Jimmy's Transmissions
888 B. Tower Road
Mundelein, IL 60060

847-949-7507

I don't know much about 700R's but I would think about dumping the lock-up convertor, there really hard on 200R's....It would be much quicker with a non-lockup 9 inch......


That's what I was thinking........

[fly5150]

Just buy my old truck, its still for sale, cheep too, and use that trans and x-fer case. its held up real well to my beatings.
:)

[88camaro]

try http://www.finishlinetrans.com/index.html. the guy built a 4l80e for the guy and now it handles 1011rwhp/1090rwtq at 22psi on a 5000# truck.
From what i got from reading on the guy post was that each time (only 2) it broke he made it better.

http://www.performancetrucks.net/forums/showthread.php?t=349335

[Poncho]

T-56 :goof

[SlowStee]

Josh you seem like a VERY smart, guy who is good at what he does...I think it would be interesting to see what you could do with a 4L80E :)

[HITMAN]

Now honestly I'm not sure if you're recommending the TH400 or just wanting to joust with CrawlinZ? :confused If you're recommending it; I have a few questions:

Do you know if I can enjoy normal automatic shifting even during part throttle boost conditions when the vacuum modulator would surely be recieving 0"hg signal (or more)?

I don't know about this. I do know that in 1980, Pontiac used a TH350 behind the turbocharged 301 used in the Turbo T/A of the same year. I'm not sure what Pontiac used to solve the vacuum/boost issue, but I would assume some sort of check valve was used to keep the V/M from seeing boost. You may want to look into what Pontiac did to avoid this issue. If it were my vehicle, I would just use a manual valve-body and reduce line pressure to keep the shift from being too harsh. Shifting manually doesn't bother me and I like the complete shifting control I get from it.


Would it be suitable for use at Road America?

No more or less so than any other A/T would be. No slush-box will give you the ability to select an optimum ratio the same way a manual trans will. Also keep in mind that EVERY A/T uses a fluid coupling (torque converter), so with many laps, heating might become an issue. This can be combated with a mild stall speed converter and a big transmission cooler, but I would never-the-less use a trans temp guage and watch it to keep from overheating the fluid.


Do you expect the gas mileage would suffer to the point that I can't still drive it to Chicago or Kansas City as I tend to do at least once a year?


Before the advent of overdrive/lock-up transmissions, how do you suppose everyone got along without them? Lots of GM intermediates and full-size cars came with TH350s and 400 and they weren't just drag only transmissions as my overly critical friend, CrawlinZ, would have you believe.
Again, keep the stall speed as low as will still give you decent acceleration and use a lower (numerical) rear gear to keep the revs down. I can't see your mileage suffering that badly. Remember, torque is your friend, load the engine and use it. Let the turbocharger do it's job... :thumbsup


Can I still allow my friends/family to drive it on rare occasion?

Why wouldn't you be able to do this? Unless you put a manual valve-body in the trans, it should drive no differently than your TH700R4. Even with a manual vb, all they would have to do is learn the shift pattern. There still is no clutch to have to learn to coordinate with.

[HITMAN]

:yawn: what an idiot.
Right. What is it you do for a living, again? Rocket scientist? :rolf



i said **** the Th400 in HIS TRUCK. cause i know what he likes and what he WANTS to do with the truck. How do you know this? Are you The Amazing Kreskin? Do you have a crystal ball? Have you taken long, hot showers with him and gotten to know his every whim intimately? If he wasn't somewhat interested, I don't believe he would have asked...

Try to keep the "Well I know him better than you do, so nya nya!" B.S. and immature name calling to a minimum from now on, okay?


And to enjoy the truck to it's FULL potential i know he wouldn't want that in it.

Full potential? Well, what he's got right now is broken, so there isn't much potential in that, is there? Now you want him to run off and buy an extremely expensive transmission that will still ultimately be an experiment. What if he ends up with another POS? Will you pay for it if it doesn't work? :slap


Again, more useless commentary from me. :thumbsup



That's a problem with you "oldschoolers" who want to relive the past, you ignore the future and the benefits of it.

Who's reliving the past? He's looking for a strong, reliable and, I would assume, economical (from an investment stand-point) transmission, and you dismiss the TH400 as being an archaic piece-of-crap, suitable only for drag racing. I was merely pointing out (admittedly with some sarcasm) that I believe that your point-of-view, at least in the case of the TH400, is somewhat narrow.


Then again, if they are so good, then why didn't you toss one in your LS1 right away?

I didn't want ANY automatic in my SS. I bought my SS because it was a manual. It's much more entertaining to shift. If it would have been an option in the poll, I would have suggested he put in a TKO or a T56 in his truck.



No where did it say undrivable.

No, but you implied that because it was missing a gear and a lock-up converter, it would make his truck FAR less enjoyable than it is now. Broke = Fun? Expensive and complex = Fun? Not on my planet...


**** that was my original plan to have the TH350 in my car. And I'm glad i have it.

You now seem to be arguing with yourself. Who's winning? :alcoholic


If he can get an overdrive, WHY NOT HAVE IT.

Maybe because Cost + Complexity + Extra Weight might overwhelm the benefit of one extra gear?


Toss a 4L80E in there, get the TH400 strength and an overdrive. Welcome to technology, where you CAN have your cake an eat it too.

Such a simple answer. What about cost? The trans isn't free, and what about a lock-up converter? Even more cash. This grand experiment of yours seems pretty pricey and there's no guarantee it wont cause him more headaches in the long run. Again I ask you: If it doesn't work, will you pay for it? The TH400 is a safe, strong, tried and true bet. What it lacks in technology, it makes up for in reliability and savings.

Look Chris, I am merely offering one opinion and it happens to be different from yours. But because you fancy yourself to be BCM's all-knowing performance guru when it comes to modern performance and I challenged your opinion (again, sarcastically), you let your emotions get the better of you and you started in with name calling and insipid commentary. I'm an idiot (Yeah, everybody should be so stupid...) and an asshole (What else is new?). BFD. What does that make you? Narrow-minded bigot comes to mind... ;)

Finally, only Josh can be the final judge of what's best for Josh, not you or I. He asked for different opinions, you gave yours and now I have given mine. Now it's time for Josh to decide.

[HITMAN]

see.... guess i was right on MY recommendation for HIM

gotta know the guy before you start opening the flaps. but then again, you just like being an asshole

Do you have any idea how catty and queer this post appears?

Put your purse down and swing with both hands, lady... :rolf

[GTSLOW]

4L80E

go big, go beefy, HAHAHA.
.

Werd !

[Prince Valiant]

I say get the th400. It can be built a hell of alot tougher than the O/D's...

...and I don't know, you'll have to explain your concern with regards to the driveability concerns a little better...exactly what are your concerns? Ennumerate them if you could. Thanks.

[Crawlin]

Do you have any idea how catty and queer this post appears?

Put your purse down and swing with both hands, lady... :rolf

they don't call me seacrest for nothing.... then again maybe it's because i refuse to believe a t-shirt and sweatpants will make a comeback, or were ever "in".

[350-Z28]

I vote try a new builder, obviously this guy can't do it right, so send it out to someone else, and as a joke, have a fake bill sent to the previous guy =D

[GTSLOW]

Why not a T56? :D Would definately be some custom work! But would be great for autocrossing and road racing. Also would be alot funner to drive!

[HITMAN]

they don't call me seacrest for nothing.... then again maybe it's because i refuse to believe a t-shirt and sweatpants will make a comeback, or were ever "in".

:rolleyes:

MEEEEOOOOOOWWWWW!

Change your shade of lipstick, girly. This one doesn't become you.

[SlowStee]

Why not a T56? :D Would definately be some custom work! But would be great for autocrossing and road racing. Also would be alot funner to drive!
Also would be SLOWER....



Im really curious to which of you f@ckers are voting for him to give up!!

[Kory 88Iroc lt1]

Formula Driva-
Why would a t56 be slower. If you mean et then I can see your point, but with awd even the 60' probably wouldn't be that bad. I don't know if he would even consider a t56. If it was mine,I had this problem, and road raced it. I would go that route. I'm sure that making the transfercase bolt up could be accomplished by a good machine shop.
Anyway free advice is usually worth what you pay for it.
I hope he finds out what works best for him.
Kory,

[SlowStee]

Formula Driva-
Why would a t56 be slower. If you mean et then I can see your point, but with awd even the 60' probably wouldn't be that bad. I don't know if he would even consider a t56. If it was mine,I had this problem, and road raced it. I would go that route. I'm sure that making the transfercase bolt up could be accomplished by a good machine shop.
Anyway free advice is usually worth what you pay for it.
I hope he finds out what works best for him.
Kory,
I was speaking in terms of drag racing, not auto X

[fly5150]

Formula Driva-
Why would a t56 be slower. Kory,
Syclone's and Typhoon's have this thing that they can do.... its called a boost launch, and it is amazing. street tires and a 10 - 15 psi launch would yield 1.7 60' all day long. Not much different on the street.
Gosh I miss my truck.

[GTSLOW]

Syclone's and Typhoon's have this thing that they can do.... its called a boost launch, and it is amazing. street tires and a 10 - 15 psi launch would yield 1.7 60' all day long. Not much different on the street.
Gosh I miss my truck.

Ya but on autocross/road race it would dominate!

[Cryptic]

I'll be the first to say I dont know jack sh!t about what you should do. But I'm willing to read and learn. Frankly I wouldnt take much advice from anyone who hasnt owned that car/truck in question.

Like Prince Valiant said, I agree you should elaborate on your goals for the vehicle.

Warranty work sounds like a good option, if it isnt going to cost you anything. But is that worth the effort to be broke again a month from now. Perhaps the orginal trans guy will learn from a possible mistake and correct the problem.

[animal]

Im really curious to which of you f@ckers are voting for him to give up!!

Prolly all the ricers :goof ;)

[T-Bag]

where's the T56 option?

At least you'd be able to launch it like a DSM....except even better. With the right gearing a T56 in that truck would be just as fast if not faster with a manual. It'd also be better for RA and autocrossing and make the truck 10 times more fun than it is now.

[carbon04]

call Transgo...................if I remember correctly they make a vacuum modulation kit to change the 4L80 from electronic to vacuum. The 4L80 in the 1000rwhp Silverado is vacuum controlled. That would eliminate most of the 4L80 conversion problems I would think. I have a few connections at Transgo if needed.

[lotsals1]

4L80 -with a manual valve body -its about the same lenghth --mount is just back a little farther --cake is good

[Syclone0044]

Wow! :stare Thanks to everyone for all the comments and votes - a lot of good points for me to consider. :thumbsup I might actually be able to repair the thing myself after looking into it, depends on what it looks like inside after I get the MoF@*#% pulled out again.. I'll update this thread with what happens. I am not looking forward to another dark-garage tranny pull by myself with jackstands :fire no other choice really since the truck could be stuck for months if the trans is destroyed inside; I'll have to suck it up and get it done.


Syclone's and Typhoon's have this thing that they can do.... its called a boost launch, and it is amazing. street tires and a 10 - 15 psi launch would yield 1.7 60' all day long. Not much different on the street.
Gosh I miss my truck. Shoulda went for that ride Dave!! I went to HWY looking for you like 3 different times :D

[Syclone0044]

Update. I took vacation last Friday and got the trans out and worked on it this weekend. My trans builder was very helpful and probably talked on the phone with me for 2-3 hours helping me to disassemble this thing and understand it. I have never taken (or seen in person) a tranny this far apart before.

http://s95370645.onlinehome.us/syclone/trans/trans_apart1.jpg


I found the problem right away. There is a metal anchor pin that holds the 2-4 band to make it apply by "squeezing" the reverse input drum. This is what a new one looks like:

http://s95370645.onlinehome.us/syclone/trans/new_anchor_pin.jpg


This is what mine looks like:

http://s95370645.onlinehome.us/syclone/trans/24band_busted_pin.jpg


Here's the other half, still in the case (red/silver circle in center of photo)

http://s95370645.onlinehome.us/syclone/trans/24band_busted_pin2.jpg

What happened was the tranny builder said it was a real monster when he test-drove it in his truck. When I installed it, it didn't seem to shift as hard as my stock one and he couldn't understand why. He sent me some stiffer springs to use and it improved a bit and I drove it for 1500 miles and then on a hard 1-2 WOT shift one night I lost 2nd and 4th gear (see beginning of this thread.) The problem was the converter was masking the shifts at low RPM. Just cruising around the converter acts loose below 2400 RPM so even if the trans shifts hard, it feels like a soft "puff" and the RPM doesn't hardly drop. We kept increaseing the stiffness of the spring but in reality it was shifting incredibly hard inside the transmission, I just wasn't feeling it.

So fortunately there was almost no debris and I am going to try to put it back together with a few improvements of my own and we'll see how it works!!! :headbang If it works out, what a relief... :sleep

[GTSLOW]

Good to here :thumbsup

btw I have a lt1 t56 if you change your mind!

[banana trans]

http://www.jsmanufacturing.com/ 4l80E conversion kit for your ride.

[Syclone0044]

Hefty price tag - $5500 to convert. I am putting my 700R4 back together. Funny thing, the guys at JS Manufacturing know me (I ran into them at the Nationals) and they are the same team with the 4L80e stock turbo Syclone that has been trying to beat my Stock Turbo ET record :shades

[banana trans]

trying to beat your stock ET record :thumbsup

[turbogarrett]

Have you checked out gm's new 6l80 6 speed auto? Not sure it's even available yet, but sounds like it will be the best of both worlds.

[Syclone0044]

I did read up on it a bit but I doubt it would mate to the BW4472 AWD transfer case, that was the problem with the 4L80e (until someone developed a custom shaft). I don't think the 6 speeds are for drag racing anyway, but not positive.

[Syclone0044]

What can I say, it lives!! :banana

I wasn't sure if the tranny would work properly after I reassembled it... I carefully put her all back together and The Moment Of Truth arrived; I put it in Reverse and backed out of the garage under its own power! But would it shift 2nd or 4th? I cautiously crept out into the street, the end of 1st gear comes... SHIFT!! 2nd applied just fine! :headbang Got on the highway, 4th gear also works again! :D

I also made 4 changes to the valve body calibration, 2 had no effect, and 2 had the desired (positive) effect. Took out the check ball / retainer on the end of the input shaft and the converter clutch locks up much nicer now!! Wish I had done that from the get go.

As a gift to my truck I bought and installed a 1" Rear Sway Bar from BellTech. Tested it out at 3 AM last night :stare and it made a nice improvement in keeping the truck's handling flat. (I'm sure anyone who's installed a new part that went late understands once it gets late enough, by the time you finish you Just Gotta Try It Out no matter what!! :D) It didn't quite make the "drastic" difference the advertising/instructions claimed it would.. but I might just need to tighten the end-link bolts a bit more? (Instructions were contradictory about whether they should be loose enough to still rotate the bushings, or torqued to 30 LB-FT, anyone know?)

Now I just need to get some miles on it to break in the new Band. :) Let's hope this is the last time I have to update this thread for a while!!!! :deal :crazyeyes :sleep

[SSmike1]

i say
tighten em up to 30 FT/LBS
tighter is Better! :)

get the bugs out of it for RA in April!
:)

[UnderPSI]

Good luck, I am glad to hear you haven't given up yet.

[Syclone0044]

Brad: Thanks, nice to hear that!

SSMike: I found out why they recommend on this install site for a different sway bar (http://www.vessels-clan.com/jay/truck/rearbar.htm) that you don't tighten the end link bolts very much. I started to tighten them and the red polyurethane bushings just started to squish. I could tell that if I kept tightening they'd just squish forever until they "burst". So I tightened them only to the point where it "felt just right". The nut is metal with a nylon locknut so it won't go anywhere. Time to go test it out!!! :thumbsup

[1fastsol]

do it right 4L80E

[SSmike1]

OH
your talking the end Bolts
the ends of the SWAY BARS
where they connect to the END-LINK to Suspsension.
YES, only tighten those to the point where the Bushings are squished tight, = no play, But dont keep squishing till they are really deformed.

I though you were talking about the bushing where the sway bar mounts to the Frame.


:thumbsup




Brad: Thanks, nice to hear that!

SSMike: I found out why they recommend on this install site for a different sway bar (http://www.vessels-clan.com/jay/truck/rearbar.htm) that you don't tighten the end link bolts very much. I started to tighten them and the red polyurethane bushings just started to squish. I could tell that if I kept tightening they'd just squish forever until they "burst". So I tightened them only to the point where it "felt just right". The nut is metal with a nylon locknut so it won't go anywhere. Time to go test it out!!! :thumbsup

[SSmike1]

oh boy
the LINK you have Josh
shows the Backwards way to mount a sway bar to the Rear Axle.

The End Links, the ends of the Sway Bar,
you tighten them up until all play is gone!

Then Locktite!

:)

[Syclone0044]

I think I got it right, but I'll try to take some digital photos I can post just to be sure. I would hate to mess up anything suspension related.

(Yeah that guy's sway bar is the P-S-T brand, mine mounts like a normal one kind of "U-shaped" under the rear axle.)