I'm scared!!! (realid)!!!

[GTSLOW]

http://www.unrealid.com/

[Neal Steffek]

I am wondering what the big deal is. How is this a bad thing? How is this worse then a state ID/Drivers Licence (sp)?

If we wanted to, we can look up anything on anybody right now on the internet, so how is having a ID card going to make a difference?

[Neal Steffek]

OK, I just read reason #5 why this is suposed to be bad.

5. Unsafe Roads.
Once upon a time, a driver's license was a license to drive a motor vehicle. Turning driver's licenses into national identity cards will actually make our roads more dangerous: by barring illegal immigrants from getting a driver's license,


Ummm, Tell me this is a joke website like the onion. This site is so uneducated.

[GTSLOW]

I dunno I didnt really read into. Some guy posted it on another forum with probably a biased opinion and I just thought u guys might like to read up.

[animal]

Heh, I like the fact they put your religion on there, as if it matters or something. Is there a handful to choose from? Or can you just make one up? :)

[SSmike1]

Heh, I like the fact they put your religion on there, as if it matters or something. Is there a handful to choose from? Or can you just make one up? :)
hey tim,
there may be many religions, BUT
there is only one way to heaven,
and that is Through Jesus Christ!

I'd make sure i have a relationship with Jesus!
no matter what religion.
:thumbsup

[92lxcoupe]

hey tim,
there may be many religions, BUT
there is only one way to heaven,
and that is Through Jesus Christ!

I'd make sure i have a relationship with Jesus!
no matter what religion.
:thumbsup
I am hoping that was some kind of joke, right?

[Al]

Are drivers licenses not enough?

[GTSLOW]

I dunno I thought it said somthing about being able to track the location of the card. Which I think is rather freaky.

[Pig Pen]

http://www.unrealid.com/what.html


Everything on this page can be found on the net ALREADY. The UC (undercover) officer from the Falls found his name, home address, phone number, and such off of one site. Anyways, I think this just seems like typical left wing drum beating at its finest again.

[DFJ6000]

Still though, our freedoms go out the window in the name of terrorism. We will never have to worry about America ever falling to another nation, the only way america would/will fall is from within, similar to Rome. One by one everyone watches little freedoms go goodbye and gas prices skyrocket higher. We've become quite close to everything we left England for.

Oh and go ahead, everyone who decides to bash my post. I know most probably will because everyone is afraid to shut up and listen, or even try to think about things from someone elses perspective.

[fireguyrick]

So what if it has your religion on it. My dog tags had my religion on them.

Rick

[92lxcoupe]

Still though, our freedoms go out the window in the name of terrorism. We will never have to worry about America ever falling to another nation, the only way america would/will fall is from within, similar to Rome. One by one everyone watches little freedoms go goodbye and gas prices skyrocket higher. We've become quite close to everything we left England for.

Oh and go ahead, everyone who decides to bash my post. I know most probably will because everyone is afraid to shut up and listen, or even try to think about things from someone elses perspective.

Not everyone will bash. Every empire in history has had the same outcome...

[DFJ6000]

thanks, and thats exactly what America has become, an Empire

ehem....roll Vaders Music?

[Prince Valiant]

I dunno I thought it said somthing about being able to track the location of the card. Which I think is rather freaky.
No, that's the 20 dollar bills...those strips they put in there? That's what it's for. :rolf

Seriously, every damn consiracy can be found on the net. Most of the stuff is silly beyond belief

Click for an example (http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicapollo.html)

You could read from that sight and be quite convinced of what they say is true (I guess). But of course, these are extremely biased, one sided arguments that will focus on specific instances and not even listen or consider other information. They are using propoganda.

Secondly, this is silly:
Still though, our freedoms go out the window in the name of terrorism. We will never have to worry about America ever falling to another nation, the only way america would/will fall is from within, similar to Rome. One by one everyone watches little freedoms go goodbye and gas prices skyrocket higher. We've become quite close to everything we left England for.

Oh and go ahead, everyone who decides to bash my post. I know most probably will because everyone is afraid to shut up and listen, or even try to think about things from someone elses perspective. Okay, name examples.

Shut up and listen? To what? To you use vague analogies with no specific examples? What "freedoms" have we've given up? Now there's a gas price conspiracy threatening the very fabric of the US too?

You've blanketly accused others of not even trying "to think about things from someone elses perspective" without even spelling out your OWN case (although truth or fact have little to do with perspective...you are either "right" or "wrong"...so your perspective has little to do with it)

This **** gets old. Conspiracy theory's, and those that believe them, are looney.

[DFJ6000]

Secondly, this is silly: Okay, name examples.

Shut up and listen? To what? To you use vague analogies with no specific examples? What "freedoms" have we've given up? Now there's a gas price conspiracy threatening the very fabric of the US too?

You've blanketly accused others of not even trying "to think about things from someone elses perspective" without even spelling out your OWN case (although truth or fact have little to do with perspective...you are either "right" or "wrong"...so your perspective has little to do with it)

This **** gets old. Conspiracy theory's, and those that believe them, are looney


My vague analogies are exactly that, vague. Because there is no real proof that any of this is happening just perhaps perspective and opinions.

You've blanketly accused others of not even trying "to think about things from someone elses perspective"

I've accused no one of anythings so don't try to put words in my mouth.

"Now there's a gas price conspiracy threatening the very fabric of the US too?"

Gas prices are a problem, don't you see a pattern? They will go up about 20-30 cents then drop 10 and stay put, so then that way over long enough time people get used to them, and the cycle repeats. They want gas as high as it is in Europe, isnt it close to 5 a gallon?

"although truth or fact have little to do with perspective...you are either "right" or "wrong"...so your perspective has little to do with it"

When someone speaks an Opinion whether or not they are exactly on the money doesnt make a difference. Its an Opinion neither right nor wrong.

"This **** gets old. Conspiracy theory's, and those that believe them, are looney"

Guess I'm looney then

[fireguyrick]

Well, I will agree with the gas price concept, but it is really not a conspiracy per say. In general gas consumption has not decreased, so WHY would any sane buisnessperson lower the price? They see that the masses are still buying as XX.XX price. Kind of like racing a slower car over and over again for money, and the slow car keeps coming back the same way to race you. Would you stop racing him for money?

In regards to the ID thing, I could care less. Give me one now for all I care. I do not believe it is going to change the way I live, or change the way things occur in this country. It is really just a waste of federal money IMHO. If they want certain things, they should just begin mandating certain requirements in all State IDs/DLs.

Rick

[92lxcoupe]

I do find it odd that the government gave over $12B in subsidies to the oil companies to help them with the strain of oil prices, but our gas is still 24% more expensive than a year ago. It is also odd that Exxon now tops Forbe's 500 list and is making money hand over fist. Exxon's soon to retire CEO said in Fortune magazine that they are making money faster than they can spend it. It is also odd that the majority of our current administration comes from large oil companies. Ah, nevermind, I should just look away and pretend everything is great. Wouldn't want to be labeled "looney."

[Pig Pen]

Whats it like to believe in Black Helicopters, the US set up the 9/11 events, and that your an idiot who thinks the worlds against them? Just wondering, cause these conspiracy theories are just plain stupid. I believe all this crap once they start taking guns away, which amazingly is what the Left wants to do and what Nazi Germany did? Is that coincidence?

[DFJ6000]

hahahaha you kids I tell ya, specially you cops. Believe what you may, but when Orions belt matches with the pyrimids of Giza, and The 13th planet shows itself in our oribit, and when we have our collective conciousness in the winter of 2011 suddenly everyone will be believers. Sometimes everyone should think outside of the box. Try to see things for what they could be and be open to others thoughts. Don't be so close minded. Its kind of like sayin that Christianity is the only religion because its what you were raised as. Everyone is so quick to judge. So I'll keep beliveing in my helicopters because afterall, I'm just looney. In the end all I gotta say is ...

:flipoff2: The Haterz

[Prince Valiant]

My vague analogies are exactly that, vague. Because there is no real proof that any of this is happening just perhaps perspective and opinions. Neither of which is proof or fact of anything :confused

You've blanketly accused others of not even trying "to think about things from someone elses perspective"
I've accused no one of anythings so don't try to put words in my mouth. Uh...did you not type this?
I know most probably will because everyone is afraid to shut up and listen, or even try to think about things from someone elses perspective. Jeez, you just said "everyone" won't "shut up and listen", or even "try to think about things from someone elses perspective". :confused

Do you even know what you said :confused :rolf :rolleyes:

In case your reading comprehension is between that of a rock and a slug dipped in salt, you had just accused "everyone" of not seeing things from someone elses perspective ;)

Gas prices are a problem, don't you see a pattern? They will go up about 20-30 cents then drop 10 and stay put, so then that way over long enough time people get used to them, and the cycle repeats. They want gas as high as it is in Europe, isnt it close to 5 a gallon? Yeah, your RIGHT! "They" (who are they?), want the gas prices as high as it is in europe (WHY?!? explain WHY!!!! This makes no sense on the surface, nor if you delve further into what happens if it's TRUE!!!!#)

Of course, the more complex, harder to grasp, and no less than the true answer has to do with factors including increased competition for world oil supplies from china and india (both increasingly prosperous AND populous nations relative to what they were 15 years ago), decreased stability in the middle east as a whole region (gas, being in the futures market is especially sensitive to uncertainty of future stable supplies, causing bidding wars among future supplies, driving prices up), the once reliable venezuala oil supply is in jeopardy as crazy hugo chavez threatens future supplies based on his whims and tirades (again, see middle east explanation), the fact that while we demand refineries blend some 50 different kinds of reformulated gases (increasing cost of production, decreasing supplies to local markets, thus driving prices up) we haven't expanded our refining capability (constant increases in demand, with a fix supply due to having the same refining capability as we had 30+years ago does what? Yep, drive up cost) coupled with the unreasonable demands of enviros who refuse to allow increased domestic exploration/drilling for oil (anwar is one of the worlds largest supplies, gulf of mexico is even LARGER, and california is seriously underutilized...in the end, increase supply is still muted by our miniscule ability to refine oil based on our needs...because of the silly enviros!) has led us to pay less for gas NOW than 30years ago when adjusted for inflation. Yeah...that's what "they" planned :rolleyes:

What's amusing and sad is the same convuloted set-up imposed on oil companies (no new oil refining capabilities thus limiting supply + increasing domestic demand) has allowed the oil companies to raise prices, without allowing major investments in it's own infastructure (thus saving billions) and then we are SHOCKED when oil companies profits go through the roof. :rolleyes:

When someone speaks an Opinion whether or not they are exactly on the money doesnt make a difference. Its an Opinion neither right nor wrong. :rolf This is funny!

When an opinion is about a color is pretty or not, you are right. Who am i to say otherwise?

BUT, lets say that we are talking about whether a rope can hold a person...you say it can, I say it can't. Well, the rope breaks.....guess what? YOUR OPINION WAS WRONG!!! Say you have an opinion that you can drive through an oak tree? Guess what? YOU'LL BE DEAD WRONG!

So if you have an opinion about whether there are conspiracies out there, and there aren't....then YOU ARE WRONG!

There, philosophy 101, easy as pie

Guess I'm looney then Well, that was the nice way of putting it :)

[Prince Valiant]

Wouldn't want to be labeled "looney." *marks in book: "92lxcoupe is LOONEY"*

[Pig Pen]

I've read up on my conspiracy sh.it man. I've read books on the Mason's to chem trails to remote viewing to aliens to Alchemism and listen to Coast to Coast. I'm open minded with a ton of things and ideas. I'm not overly religious and don't have that as a crutch to stick to a belief, as a lot of people do. I believe in aliens and ufo's and that Buddy Holly was ment to die with that as.s that made the Dukes of Hazzard song. But this seems to be a very large reach. And I am, after all, a recovering Leftist who thought Momia was set up and Lenard Peltier was innocent (once donated money to AIM), none of which I believe now.

[DFJ6000]

hey hey hey Waylon Jennings is not an ass!

[DFJ6000]

Not only can I not read, I am also an idiot and looney. Wow you've really proved yourself prince valiant to be quite the @$$hole. Sure I dont kno much about politics and it's fun pretending, but I do have some ideas of whats going on. But you on the other hand, you are just the god of debate, so I will lay low because you have an answer for everything. :rolleyes:

[Prince Valiant]

Not only can I not read, I am also an idiot and looney. Wow you've really proved yourself prince valiant to be quite the @$$hole. oh noes...you think I'm an @$$ :rolf

No, your just mad because you are TOO open minded to hear others opinions and see things from their perspective :rolleyes:

but I do have some ideas of whats going on and you've been given plenty of opportunity to explain "whats going on" but you won't. You just want people to blindly believe what you've got to say, and bristle at being challenged on it...defending it as infallable simply because it's "opinion".

[92lxcoupe]

*marks in book: "92lxcoupe is LOONEY"*
That actually made me laugh (no sarcasm)!

Anyways, here you go:

-The Patriot Act gives the President the power to declare any person an "Enemy Combatant" based on information he has recieved from the military or any of the intelligence agencies. The Patriot Act gives the President the right to detain indefinately any individual declared as an Enemy Combatant without trial, charge, or explanation. Said person does not have the right to appeal or even see the evidence. When I was young, I remember a thing called The Constitution. But if you actually read the Patriot Act, it appears The Constitution is just as mythical as unicorns.

-Reguarding gun control. Most of the Left does not want to completely remove guns. After all, most of us have guns (myself included) and hunt. We want gun CONTROL. The Brady Bill (passed by a Republican Congress and signed into law by a Demcratic President) was supposed to give a five day waiting period to handgun purchases. This was also supposed to be a "cool down" period. When that expired in 1999 it was ammended to three days. To me, that doesn't sound too horrible. How many sportsmen feel the sudden urge to purchase a handgun the day before they go hunting? This is the group that pretends they are somehow hurt by this type of legislation.

-Comparing the Left to Nazis based on gun control makes no sense. The Nazis took away guns to prevent the people from rising up. The Left is CONTROLLING guns in an attempt to make the country safer from those that should not have guns. I am also aware that some of the gun laws are rediculous, but lobbyist groups on BOTH sides have made some pretty stupid moves. The Right has made many accusations like this (comparison to the Nazis) and at the same time accuses the Left of being "bleeding hearts." Oxymoron anyone???

-The "Enviros." As stated above, lobbyists from both sides push some issues. I am also not a big fan of reformulated gas, but we can't pretend that the environment doesn't need some work. Look at the Fox River, the southwest portion of Lake Michigan, or the smog in California. Did the environment look like this 200 years ago? I wasn't there, but I doubt it did. The $12B in subsidies were supposed to help the oil companies find cleaner and better resources as well as help with the burden of increased Middle East oil costs, not go into thier pockets. We are paying for the subsidies from our taxes, and then paying again at the pump. I am "shocked" that the oil companies' profits go through the roof because we are paying twice. Take a step back and look at it.

-Conspiracies. I agree that most conspiracies are bogus. But I hope you don't think that it isn't possible that the government could be at least somewhat corrupt. To pretend that we rose to become the world's superpower without corruption could be cosidered looney. Most conspiracy theories are based on a number of facts, and although their relevance is usually based on the theorists perception, the facts are still there. An overwhelming number of the world's population has a strong belief in some type of religion. All religions have been based upon a large deal of faith with no proof, but they are not considered looney. You should not group all Leftists into the looney category, just as we should not group all Rightists as selfish or ignorant.

[SSmike1]

yes, a lot of the young men here Vote Democratic,
then Blame bush for the gas prices,

HOW IGNORANT HEY ARE!

it is the democratic environ's,
they are preventing us keeping our prices down.

I think the Democrats have major Stock (or own) in the oil companies!!!!!!!
you'd be surprised. :wow




Of course, the more complex, harder to grasp, and no less than the true answer has to do with factors including increased competition for world oil supplies from china and india (both increasingly prosperous AND populous nations relative to what they were 15 years ago), decreased stability in the middle east as a whole region (gas, being in the futures market is especially sensitive to uncertainty of future stable supplies, causing bidding wars among future supplies, driving prices up), the once reliable venezuala oil supply is in jeopardy as crazy hugo chavez threatens future supplies based on his whims and tirades (again, see middle east explanation), the fact that while we demand refineries blend some 50 different kinds of reformulated gases (increasing cost of production, decreasing supplies to local markets, thus driving prices up) we haven't expanded our refining capability (constant increases in demand, with a fix supply due to having the same refining capability as we had 30+years ago does what? Yep, drive up cost) coupled with the unreasonable demands of enviros who refuse to allow increased domestic exploration/drilling for oil (anwar is one of the worlds largest supplies, gulf of mexico is even LARGER, and california is seriously underutilized...in the end, increase supply is still muted by our miniscule ability to refine oil based on our needs...because of the silly enviros!) has led us to pay less for gas NOW than 30years ago when adjusted for inflation. Yeah...that's what "they" planned :rolleyes:

What's amusing and sad is the same convuloted set-up imposed on oil companies (no new oil refining capabilities thus limiting supply + increasing domestic demand) has allowed the oil companies to raise prices, without allowing major investments in it's own infastructure (thus saving billions) and then we are SHOCKED when oil companies profits go through the roof. :rolleyes:
:rolf This is funny!

When an opinion is about a color is pretty or not, you are right. Who am i to say otherwise?

BUT, lets say that we are talking about whether a rope can hold a person...you say it can, I say it can't. Well, the rope breaks.....guess what? YOUR OPINION WAS WRONG!!! Say you have an opinion that you can drive through an oak tree? Guess what? YOU'LL BE DEAD WRONG!

So if you have an opinion about whether there are conspiracies out there, and there aren't....then YOU ARE WRONG!

There, philosophy 101, easy as pie
Well, that was the nice way of putting it :)

[92lxcoupe]

yes, a lot of the young men here Vote Democratic,
then Blame bush for the gas prices,

HOW IGNORANT HEY ARE!

it is the democratic environ's,
they are preventing us keeping our prices down.

I think the Democrats have major Stock (or own) in the oil companies!!!!!!!
you'd be surprised. :wow

We do blame Bush for the gas prices (among other things). Afterall, He is our president and his budget gave the oil companies the subsides to help keep prices in check. He also isn't holding anyone accountable for the fact that they are NOT keeping them in check. How can you pretend that the branch that so obviously favors the rich doesn't have anything to do with them getting richer? Name a Democrat that owns an oil company. Step back and look at motives. How does a wealthy Democratic politician gain by supporting the lower and middle class? With all those kickbacks they get from welfare, right? How does a wealthy Republican politician gain by supporting the upperclass and large businesses? Ask Bush where his campaign money came from ($1.8M just from Halliburton). Ask Cheney about his defered retirement pay he has been recieving from Halliburton for the last four years. It may suprise you, but he recieves more than $36m in the year 2000 and over $1m per year since. Wonder why Halliburton received government contracts to rebuild Iraq.
Here is a White House doccument:
http://origin-www.thesmokinggun.com:80/archive/dicktax1.html

[SMS 1]

the southwest portion of Lake Michigan

I think a very large part of that problem (if not all) could be well attributed to the morons running MMSD.

[Al]

thanks, and thats exactly what America has become, an Empire

ehem....roll Vaders Music?

...and if you own any sized share of stock, you literally own a small family in China or Tiawan!


I think that the only ID system we need is one of those facial recognition systems or a retina/iris scan. Some people are paranoid about it, but it seems to relate more to back-in-the-day when you could go to a local store and just pick somthing up despite the fact that you left your wallet at home which is not a problem because the clerk recognizes you and decides to put it on your tab.

^ A system like that would be alot safer than credit cards because theft would be so much more difficult to get away with.

We pay a premium on some products because the companies need to account for shrinkage.


Overall, I still think we have it pretty good here in the US.

We may think that we are losing our freedoms, but understand what excesses we have. A good example is how a warrant is needed to search your home. PigPen could tell you about a situation where he knew some kids were smoking dope in a house, but he could not enter it because it would violate certain privacy laws.

ALSO, we have all went over the speed limit a time or two. Just going 1 mph over the limit is brakeing the law, but how often do you get pulled over for that?

In addition to that, have you ever been pulled over for something that you were clearly guilty of and get away with just a warning?

We win some and then we lose some.

[Prince Valiant]

To 92LXcoupe: Glad you laughted...that was the intention.

But wait. You lament that the constitution has become as mythical as the unicorn since the enactment of the patriot act, but then turn around and defend something as blatantly unconstitutional as gun control per the second admendment?

In actuality though, you are wrong, the patriot act does not specifically give this power to the president....as a matter of fact, it (the patriot act) has nothing to do with "enemy combatants", but from an altogether different law, to which even our very own "maverick" senator fiengold voted "yes" on.

Regarding gun control though, why is it in every case that one of a liberal or pro-control stance states as a reason that they want gun control to make it harder for criminals to get guns? They're criminals! They don't go through legal means to obtain guns! Only law abbiding citizens do! It would be similar to prohibition in which when alcohol was abolished, it was the criminal underground that went to work to produce and supply to those that wanted alcohol...it was the criminals that made a ton of money, it was the criminals who had say over who could and couldn't purchase alchohol.

Further gun controls just gives more power to criminals.

The second admendment does state that the gov't should not "infringe" on "the peoples" right to "keep and bear arms". If by gun control and delaying gun purchases aren't infringing on keeping and bearing arms, I don't know what is.

But you are right...it would be silly to compare nazi's to leftist based on gun control, or gun control only. One only needs to read the tennents of nazism to understand it's similarity to the left.

And no, I am not dumb enough to think that gov't isn't corrupt...but corruption and vast conspiracys are two very different things, now aren't they?

As a matter of fact, I argue that gov't is VERY corrupt, and is why it's scope and size SHOULD be limited. This is why I am unadbashedly conservative. At least with coruption in the private sector, redress through the criminal and civil court systems is far more likely to occur, AND people can always speak with their pocketbook. Cleaning up corruption in the private sector takes far less time than it does it gov't.

[DFJ6000]

No, your just mad because you are TOO open minded to hear others opinions and see things from their perspective

hahah that doesnt make any bit of sense. I hear everyones opinions, I choose not to say anything because people like you, no matter how true or false it may be will shoot it down. Everyone has their own idea of how things are, and how they should work. This is exactly why discussing politics and crap is really pointless. Somebody somewhere will always disagree. You mean nothing to me, and frankly I could give a F*** less what you think of me or what I say. So please be a good girl and end it here. I'm done discussing things I honestly know nothing about.

[Pig Pen]

I'd like to just come forth and say, I hate Liberals and Democrats. The best thing a Democrat ever did was when Kennedy let the back of his skull free (ironic, a democrat killed by a Communist, today they are one in the same, worthless extortionists).

[Prince Valiant]

hahah that doesnt make any bit of sense. :rolleyes: Yes, that's the point. I was mocking you :rolleyes: :loser

Good girl...wow :rolf Lot of brains, lot's of em' :rolleyes:

[DFJ6000]

you kno, quite childish of me indeed mr. valiant. I dont need beef on this forum let alone any forum. I'm going to bury the hatchet and never say another word about it. Its done, arguing about things that don't even matter is really a waste of my time, as well as yours I'm sure.

[92lxcoupe]

Actually, the second amendment reads as follows:
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

A militia is defined by Merriam-Webster dictionary as follows:
1a. A part of the organized armed forces of a country liable to call on only in emergency; b. A body of citizen's organized for military service.
2. the whole body of able-bodied male citizens declared by law as being subject to call to military service.

Part 1a is refers to the Armed Forces and National Guard. Part 1b would refer to an emergency situation, like in the movie Red Dawn (sorry for the poor example, but it was the first to come to mind). Part 2 likely provides the right for every citizen to own a gun just in case parts 1a and 1b comes into play, as a large part of our military during the Revolutionary War used their own weapons to fight.

So as it reads the second amendment is a provision to allow a militia or military (ie national guard or the armed forces) to protect our country/people against a foriegn attack as well as to protect us from an overbearing government. Times were different 229 years ago when the constitution was first drafted and, although many may not agree, some changes have been made. If you notice, there is nothing preventing criminals from owning guns based on the face value of the second amendment. It may be that in our country's birth many that came here were criminals escaping their past and when the Bill of Rights was drafted they wanted to eliminate any possibility of confusion. Even though it is a direct contradiction to said face value, this was changed and no one complains about it.

The waiting period brought forth by the Brady Bill was not there to prevent criminals from getting handguns, but rather as a cool down period to prevent otherwise normal law abiding citizens from becoming criminals during periods of abnormal emotional stress. As an example, someone who comes home and finds their wife/girlfriend/husband/boyfriend in bed with someone else. In all actuality, five days to cool down will prevent substantially more crimes of passion than the drive to and from a local gun store. And as a side note reguarding handguns-more often than not if you need to protect yourself or your country against anyone who threatens it you would be much more effective with your hunting rifle than a handgun. I also realize this leaves the door open for assault rifles, but if anyone wants to go through that door then that opens another door opposing the arguements that the NRA is only trying to protect hunter's rights. I am pretty much a left wing extremist by most conservatives' standards but have strongly considered the purchase of an assault rifle for the same reasons stated at face value in the second amendment.

Here is the Merriam-Webster dictionary definition of fascism:
1. A political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible supression of opposition.
2. A tendence toward or actual excersize of strong autocratic or dictatorial control.

...And socialism:
1. Any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and adminstration of the means of production and distribution of goods.
2a. A system of society or group living in which there is no private property; b. a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state.
3. A stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitolism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done.

Liberals could be considered socialists, but probably not fascists like the Nazis. We very vaguely resemble part 1 of the definition. The percentage of liberals that fit into part 2 is so small we cannot even mention, as we are also capitolists, and were born with the same "work hard to get ahead" mentality that everyone else was. Part 3 is probably the closest fit. We do believe in "pulling ourselves up from our bootstraps" as you do, but we want the playing field fair. As long as the wealthy are allowed to become wealthy at the poor's expense the lower class does not have the same advantage as everyone else, we cannot be the same nation our forefathers wanted. Unless your forefathers were native to this country or brought here as slaves, they probably came here with nothing with hopes of making a good life for themselves and families, just as immigrants now have. And unless they came from England, they probably didn't speak English either. Most of our first generation ancestors didn't learn English either.
The Nazis during Hitler's rule is an excellent example of fascism, however, Hitler also used Nationalism to transform the Nazi party from what they once stood for into an extremely evil group. They obviously used both nationalism and race in their efforts. Liberals, as everyone knows by now, are generalized as not using race against anyone, but rather the opposite. We also do not want government controlled by one person. It is also common knowledge that we prefer large government to small. If we want to play this game, conservatives could be characterized as using both nationalism and race to acheive their agenda. We know that most Republican legislature regarding any type of civil or equal rights generally does not favor equality nor the minority. The basis of the conservative mindset, as you pointed out, is small government. Small government also has little to do with social problems. It is also common of conservatives to favor large military, large military budgets, and the use of force to acheive goals. Fascists are also characterized by using fear to keep the population in check. We could also speculate that our president uses fear to herd the sheep. How many times did we hear about the WMDs to justify the war in Iraq? Believe it or not, I actually have friends that believe there still are weapons and that Bush was "bought off" to say there aren't. What about Reagan and his constant labeling of the "Looney Left" and the "Liberal Media." Look at the effect this had on the general population. If someone of power repeats the same key phrases often enough it can embedd itself into people's memory. Anyone familiar with psychology knows exactly what I mean. I am a production manager in a warehouse for a local retail store, and I employ this tactic often to heighten morale, institute a new safety measure, or during procedure changes. Is the media as liberal as many think? Look at how small some of the negative stories about Bush are printed, or how small the blurb is on the nightly news. I don't think the media has a conservative bias, but it sure doesn't have a liberal one.

I actually believe in the left and large government for several reasons. There is too much corruption in large businesses for one. Everyone complains about welfare, and the poor leaching off of the government. While there are some people that are leaching, there are many that need services to help them get off their feet. How about corporate welfare? This one will hit home-in the early '80's Chrysler corporation used welfare money to stay afloat and aid them until they got back on their feet. Did you know that of 2003's Fourtune 500 list fourty three companies did not pay taxes? And of the fourty three, ten received corporate welfare. These are supposed to be the richest companies in the country. These laws need to be fixed, but the only ones changed were social welfare-it was dropped. the poor needs at least some help to acheive the same American dream we are all striving for. The government is supposed to be a service to the people, but it is heading in a direction where it is only helping the wealthy. As a middle class citizen speaking (hopefully) for the rest of the middle class, we get screwed either way. When the left is in office we get taxed and the money goes to the poor, some of whom are abusing the system. The money also goes to schools and other social programs that I do not get to take back from. With the the right is in office, the money gets taken from the poor, education, and other social programs and given back to the wealthy and large businesses in the form of tax breaks and slowly lowered tax rates for the large businesses. I don't mind paying for education, the poor who deserve it, or many of the social programs. I vote Democratic because if I am going to pay for something that I am not getting back it should be for a good reason.


The above definitions and over-explanations were not intended as an insult Prince Valiant, but rather to inform anyone else that may read before they make an uninformed reply. Although we will continue to disagree, you seem to be the only one responding to my posts that has any education. You have also been one of the few that hasn't let this degrade into a mudslinging competition between us. My hats off to you!
:thumbsup

[Prince Valiant]

Into your very long winded explanation, the question I asked myself was, "Why didn't he just read the amendment?"

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. It's states right there, plain as day, that the people have the right to own and bear arms. Not a militia. Not the state. The people. Simple...no "a please refer to 2b in section 122.56 of Statute 566-77 for the definition of...." :goof


Liberals could be considered socialists, but probably not fascists like the Nazis. I would beg to differ! Fascism reaks of leftism...sure, socialism is imo, left of fascism, but fascism is far more left than it could ever be considered right...and you actually illustrate a couple points:

Here is the Merriam-Webster dictionary definition of fascism: A political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible supression of opposition. Exalting the state above all is the first hint of course...in fascism, private property still exist...but everything is for the benifit of the state, AND the state retains the right to regulate your use of the property to it's own benifit. In fascism, state rights are greater than individual rights. This is very strongly opposed to rightist philosophy.

Mussolini himself was very much a marxist as a young man, even being quite friendly with lenin...his break from his socialist party occured in WW1 when he realized that many of the working class were nationalistic and patriotic and that uniting the workers based on class alone was simply not going to happen, hence the strong drive of nationalism in fascism.

More fascist tenets to make a leftist proud? Here are some highlights from mussolini's fascist manifesto:

* A strong progressive tax on capital that will truly expropriate a portion of all wealth.
* The seizure of all the possessions of the religious congregations and the abolition of all the bishoprics, which constitute an enormous liability on the Nation and on the privileges of the poor.
* A minimum wage.
* The participation of workers' representatives in the functions of industry commissions
* The nationalization of all the arms and explosives factories.
* The formation of a National Council of experts for labor, for industy, for transportation, for the public health, for communications, etc. Selections to be made from the collective professionals or of tradesmen with legislative powers, and elected directly to a General Commission with ministerial powers.
* The revision of all military contracts and the seizure of 85 percent of the profits therein.

Enough to bring a tear to your eye, eh?

Now, there is debate how much mussolini disliked certain portions of marxism...but there is little debate of his dislike of bolshevism. I would argue though, that his dislike stemmed, in part, from the fact that they didn't follow the perscribe marxist path, IE a revolution brought in communism. If we recall, marxism stated that there would be a period of capitalism, then onto socialism, etc till communism...I consider mussolini as being orthodox marxist, following the prescribed path, unlike the bolshevicks who did not allow for the evolution of socialism from capitalism, so on and so forth.

Of course, you bring up an interesting, if quite incorrect point here:
Liberals, as everyone knows by now, are generalized as not using race against anyone, but rather the opposite. We also do not want government controlled by one person. Yet the great leftist regimes of the USSR, china, cuba, north korea have been controlled by primarily, one person.

And then you bring race into the equation...your statement is an utter fallacy in that that is EXACTLY what you want to believe about leftism. However, both then and as today, there are MANY racist leftist.

Look at the growing anti-semitism in europe today as one example...it isn't getting more anti-semmetic as a response to growing conservatism in that part of the world.

Look at leftist groups such as the black panthers and the nation of islam...clearly diversity isn't there strong points.

The emphasis of "cultural" or "ethnic identity" in modern leftist circles.

And of course, how can one neglect race based preferences (in the guise of "equality") of "affirmative action", or even the un-heralded bigotry of lower expectations based on race.

Hell, consider this quote even:
"Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew -- not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew. Let us not look for the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us look for the secret of his religion in the real Jew. What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money. Very well then! Emancipation from huckstering and money, consequently from practical, real Jewry, would be the self-emancipation of our time.... We recognize in Jewry, therefore, a general present-time-oriented anti-social element, an element which through historical development -- to which in this harmful respect the Jews have zealously contributed -- has been brought to its present high level, at which it must necessarily dissolve itself. In the final analysis, the emancipation of the Jews is the emancipation of mankind from Jewry".

hmm...not too friendly there. One might think that this is hitler speaking, but it's not. It's none-other than Karl Marx himself.

So, while you would love to romanticise the left and believe it's friends of all, you have to step back and think a little...racism is NOT unique to portions of the political spectrum as it litters it all over. Instead, racism is a personal evil, as likely to find friends on the left as on the right.

But lets look at a few more of your points:

It is also common of conservatives to favor large military, large military budgets, and the use of force to acheive goals What? And the soviets didn't spend themselves into oblivion? Chinese Army is small? North Koreas?

Conservatives favor strong national defense...that's what it sees a the primary reason for a national gov't. And I won't even comment on the absurdity of the "force to acheive goals" statement becasue again, history has shown that statment to be true of all ends of the political spectrum...and how have all communist gov't come to power?


I actually believe in the left and large government for several reasons.There is too much corruption in large businesses for one. Which is silly coming from somone who espoused about the corruption in the gov't as well :confused

What's the difference? Corrupt gov't do FAR more harm and are accountable to no one.

We do believe in "pulling ourselves up from our bootstraps" as you do, but we want the playing field fair. As long as the wealthy are allowed to become wealthy at the poor's expense the lower class does not have the same advantage as everyone else, we cannot be the same nation our forefathers wanted. No you don't...you believe in working for the common good of the gov't/state, and the gov't providing you a living.

This doesn't work. Never has and never will. Why? Humans are selfish. Fact of life, and no prodding and cajholing will change it. Many socialististic countries today are some of the least productive, with high rates of absenteeism because in general, people will ALWAYS want to get the most for the least. And if they can't get anything more by working harder, then they'll get the same for working less.

Secondly, your statement about the wealthy getting rich off the poor is absurd. It simplifies the economy to being just one big, none growing pie that states if the wealthy has more money, then there is less money for the poor....which is silly. I always, tongue in cheek, ask how the wealthy get wealthy off the poor....the poor have no money to take. :goof But really, class warfare is tired....I'm not poor/middle class because of someone else.

But in the end, the gov't job isn't to try and make life more fair. It simply can't be done...and no matter how many times history proves that correct, it continues to be the wet dream of a liberal.

I can't beat you for length of reply though...you put far to many points for me to even begin to reply to in one day, or even one week :goof