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View Full Version : Home humidifier? Pros? Cons? Worth it??



Nix
11-25-2013, 02:05 AM
Because of all the great info I was reading about the air duct cleaning thread I thought I would ask you folks about a home humidifier.

Does anyone have or know of someone that has a Humidifier installed in their house that works with the heating/cooling system?

I have super dry skin as it is, bad enough where shortly after it starts to get as cold as it has been getting my hands periodically crack and bleed. With the combination of shitty dry skin, manual labor working with my hands and mother nature. But it gets bad enough when they crack open it gets very painful. The cracks have a very hard time healing. Over the years I've used super glue to close up the cracks. Simply because bands aids and all that other junk doesn't cut it. I'm only 33 but over the years my hands have gotten worse. Hand cream and all the other stuff can only do so much so I'm looking for other remedies that may help.

Anyhow, It has been brought up to me about a humidifier for the whole house. But I don't personally know of anyone that has one. I'd simply like to hear some opinions. Pros/Cons, Is it expensive, expensive and tough to maintain etc.... For what it's worth we have a ranch style house that is approximately 1, 700 square feet. In the next year or two we plan on finishing a portion of the basement so I suppose that should be factored into the equation.

Thanks

Lash
11-25-2013, 06:17 AM
Long story short,

Yes, it's worth it.

Old Guy
11-25-2013, 07:58 AM
I will second that.

SSDude
11-25-2013, 09:31 AM
Comfort wise (http://humidifier-review.toptenreviews.com/add-healthful-and-helpful-humidifier-to-your-home-and-breathe-easier.html) it's a great idea but its not the cure for the hands.
I have the same issue with winter dry hands due to repeated washings at work with abrasive soap to remove grease/dirt.
Of the remedy's for hands (http://askville.amazon.com/dry-cracked-bleeding-hands/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=6831529) I've tried and heard of is to use Vaseline jelly at night before bed. A variation is to put on latex gloves after application of the Vaseline to keep it in place and intensify the healing. A couple over nights will make a big difference.
You can try the glove method with any cream you like.

0TransAm0
11-25-2013, 05:57 PM
Get utter balm and use a sock not a latex glove.. With the glove your skin can't breath at all..I have been working as a meat cutter for 14 years and we make homemade sausage,it's the worst in the winter since the casings are soaked in salt water..talk about dry skin..there were times I couldn't make a fist without the skin on the back of my hand cracking and bleeding in 5 spots..

Korndogg
11-25-2013, 07:17 PM
Yeah Udder Balm is amazing.

Ricky Bobby
11-25-2013, 10:00 PM
Getting one installed this week, have a guy who sometimes pops on here message me if ya want his info

WickedSix
11-26-2013, 11:43 AM
We have a 1650 sq ft ranch with a whole home humidifier as part of the HVA. Very small addition to the system and controlled by the panel. Keeps our home at 30-40% humidity during the cold months. We replace the element annually, fairly inexpensive. Having never had one before I'd compare it to going from no AC to having central AC as far as the comfort it affords in the house. Helps keep the plaster and wood flooring from undergoing large cycles of contraction and expansion.

nismodave
11-26-2013, 09:30 PM
Got one and love it.

awsomeears
11-26-2013, 10:38 PM
There are SBP ( small by-pass ) LBP ( large by-pass ) and Fan Power

Choosing one all depends on the Furnace for ideal operation, if your furnace is a single stage a by-pass is great, if your furnace is 2-stage you WILL FOR SURE need a power assist. When I say power assist I mean there is actually a miniature fan blowing/forcing the humidity into the duct work system. Two stage furnace usually run on low stage 80% of the heating season and they just don't have the CFM are movement to pull proper air across the humidifier pad that is Moist, hahahaha moist !!!

I have installed Aprilaire, Honeywell, Bryant, Brauburn.

Hands down Aprilaire is the Best, not only is it the best but there all priced the same so choose the aprilaire.

Also there is Manual option and Automatic option, manual means as the temperature changes outside you must walk to the control that is mounted downstairs and adjust it, Automatic is just that, you set it once ehhh possibly twice if your totally new to it and you leave it alone for how ever many years your in the home.

Automatic versions have a sensor that you place outside, the sensor takes a temperature sends it to the control, control does a % calculation and determines what ideal for the setting of where you want it.

If you have any other questions PM me, I no longer do side work as its just to stressful but I am happy to give you Facts on these products

:thumbsup

Mr. Brett
11-27-2013, 07:50 PM
I have one, April Aire 550 is the model I think. It helps, but it's not a cure all when it's dry like this. Worth the money in my opinion.

Korndogg
11-28-2013, 09:38 AM
I have an Aprilaire 700 and love it.

95 TA - The Beast
01-10-2014, 09:13 AM
I am bringing this back up because we have just gotten to the point that we will be adding a humidifier...

Why is a bypass humidifier such a good option?

Personally, all I see it as is a complete short-circuit of the return to the feed side of a single-stage system. That is bad in many ways:


1) It bypasses the blower from the feed to the supply sides, thus allowing for a drop in vacuum on the return side and a drop of static pressure on the feed side.

2) You are bypassing hot air from the feed side to the return side instead of feeding the hot air to the house. The secondary affect is increasing the temp if the return air, resulting in overheating of the air exchanger (which is bad since the cooler the incoming charge, the less heat rise in the exhanger cells themselves, which means less overall thermal cycling, which means longer life) thus shortening the life of the heat exchanger.

The only advantages:

1) Reduced operating parts since you are allowing the furnaces blower to move all the air, not an independent fan.

2) Reduced noise since it adds nothing to the furnace that makes additional noise (the aforementioned independent fan).

From a HVAC business perspective I can see why bypass humidifiers are such a "push" because they increase your business in many ways. For the homeowner I see absolutely no reason to EVER install a bypass unit. From every single perspective, outside of reduced operating parts and noise, there is only disadvantages.

The most hilarious part is the only "authorized" for DIY install units are bypass units. The install is much more of a PITA since you have to deal with holes in both the return and feed plenums, but also ducting between them as well. Much great opportunity for screw-ups and leaks as well as creating general efficiency issues. OF course from the HVAC "business" perspective, this is great is it also allows for more opportunities to start dealing with "problems" the homeowner just created for themselves by installing a bypass unit.

All the "pro" install units are either fan-powered or steam powered. They all require usually 1 hole in just the feed side. Some require greater internal install depth, so you need to know where your a-coil is in relation to the install, but if you are doing things correctly, that should be known. In the case of steam units they require even smaller holes than the fan-powered units need, thus making the install that much easier without having to to use sheet-metal sheers in some cases.

Sure, the "pro-install" units are sometimes more complex, usually including an outdoor temp sensor and possibly remote humidistats, or even direct integration to more complicated thermostats that support both outside temp monitoring and humidity control, but in all cases it is usually the same 3-7 wires needed for hookup (and possibly a airflow sensing device). Nothing more complicated than wiring up a basic thermostat itself and certainly not much more complicated than the humidifier install itself.

Sorry, looking into a lot of this HVAC stuff it exposing a lot of highly-questionable system design compromising products. I am sure there are calculations and design criteria to afford for a proper bypass system, or why not give a better installing bypass system? I mean why not pipe the bypass into the post-filter side of the system, ie, into the furnace plenum that holds the blower, instead of the return ducting??? I mean it is just thicker sheetmetal and would allow for bypass flow in a shorter space and accomplish the exact same thing. Still not a good idea IMHO, given everything I have outlined above.

I mean the only *real* options as far as I can tell are the fan powered models for longevity and proper homogeneous system integration without messing with a proper functioning and properly calibrated HVAC system. The steam systems are nice in regards to being more water efficient and adding atomized moisture directly to the air system. The issue comes down to longevity and reliability. I do not think the steam units are reliable enough or robust enough to live more than 2-3 years on average, certainly not much more than some of the 5 year warranties given on some, and cannot believe anyone would get more than 6 or 7 years without a full replacement based on the technology currently being used in most units that cost <$1000. And even in those cases they would only be in homes where the humidifier is grossly oversized for the house to keep the duty-cycle to a minumum. You can see tons of complaints on almost all the steam units out there now.

Personally I am probably going with a Honeywell HE300 fan-powered unit. The install is straightforward, it supports 18 gallons a day additional moisture, it does not have the gross air leakage problems the Aprilaire 700 units have (and to be honest the Aprilaire units have got a great track-record out there, but I also have read of the gross air leakage they have through their cases which pull unconditioned air from the furnace area in and allows conditioned air during periods where the humidifier is non-running to escape). Now it may be a simple matter of adding in some foam gasketing material to seal it up, but I also heard the cage-wheel fan on the HE300 is quieter than the direct fan on the Aprilaire 700.

I would love to hear some HVAC insider perspective on all of this...

95 TA - The Beast
01-10-2014, 09:52 AM
Sorry, I may add, there are "pro" by-pass units as well... They usually are ones that include the advanced electronics and wiring as well...

I forgot to add that the other thing about bypass units is the fact that you also have to make sure you switch the damper on them when going from winter to summer, otherwise you are using the bypass during cooling... I would imagine that could contribute to freezing of the a-coil?

Same difference in summer to winter... If you don't switch the damper you won't get humidity...

Lastly, it seems like Aprilaire OEMs to damn near everyone else almost for fan-powered humidifiers... Their 700 model is offered under a ton of OEM names as their own products, yet you can tell they are Aprilaire 700 cases and parts...

Oh, and I totally understand about the possibility of the powered units to add scale to the a-coil in operation, but with that unit being able to be removed it just makes cleaning of that side of the a-coil that much easier from the top... So the problem it creates it also offers a solution for...

jbiscuit
01-10-2014, 02:29 PM
longest post ever on BCM

Lash
01-11-2014, 10:21 AM
Somebody needs some Ritalin.

PureSound15
01-11-2014, 06:15 PM
Wow.

95 TA - The Beast
01-11-2014, 06:47 PM
What, a proper analysis of available options and pros-cons isn't valid???

Sure, this is a lot more detailed, but all the information is valid... Sure a lot of people don't care too much and just want moisture in their homes, but for someone pushing for max efficiency and energy savings I think a lot of this information is valid. Water is cheaper than electricity, thus the evaporation vs steam arguments are still valid, as well as energy savings overall. I also talk to energy consumption and reliability based on overall efficiency (fan-powered vs bypass).

Don't see why people think this is such overkill. It is just a proper analysis with valid considerations.

I noticed the resident HVAC guy didn't even give a valid reply. What is up with that? I would have to imagine properly choosing a humidification system to be well within a HVAC pros expected area of expertise, so why not a proper response to all the points discussed?

Honestly, how many people screw up their HVAC system by putting bypass systems into place and end up shortening the life of said systems? As well as lowering the efficiency of said systems?

If someone "in the industry" doesn't know, doesn't it show a lack of understanding of the principles involved in said industry? I would have to imagine such knowledge is shared by those within the industry at some level and the "answers" to all of this would have to be known. Why not share it?

Or, is it a matter that most even "in the industry" don't care enough and all that shows is that all the points made ARE VALID and that in "not caring" they are ultimately helping themselves and the industry in general profit off everyone else?

95 TA - The Beast
01-11-2014, 06:49 PM
Sorry, I do this level of analysis, engineering, evaluation, testing, etc, etc on EVERYTHING I am interested in. And, yes, most of my projects have spectacular results usually on the higher-end of the performance scale because of all this effort. Success is addicting and the formula used to achieve it is generally applicable to everything in life on one level or another...

SSDude
01-11-2014, 07:42 PM
You may want to get your arm checked. I think you may have broken it patting yourself on the back.
Carry on.........

95 TA - The Beast
01-11-2014, 07:51 PM
Hey, not everything works out in life, but if you give things enough effort, evaluation and have the ability to learn from your mistakes (which are usually the best teaching experiences), you will usually end up being successful at things...

Lash
01-11-2014, 11:08 PM
Residential HVAC guy?
Are you referring to me?
Awesomeears in the resi guy and I feel he gave a more than adequate explanation without a bunch of unneeded babble.
Me? I'm more of a commercial and industrial HVAC guy. I have done larger resi jobs (last was 30,000 sqft...yes 30,000), but those jobs a few and far between.

Lash
01-11-2014, 11:21 PM
I noticed the resident HVAC guy didn't even give a valid reply. What is up with that? I would have to imagine properly choosing a humidification system to be well within a HVAC pros expected area of expertise, so why not a proper response to all the points discussed?

Honestly, how many people screw up their HVAC system by putting bypass systems into place and end up shortening the life of said systems? As well as lowering the efficiency of said systems?

If someone "in the industry" doesn't know, doesn't it show a lack of understanding of the principles involved in said industry? I would have to imagine such knowledge is shared by those within the industry at some level and the "answers" to all of this would have to be known. Why not share it?

Or, is it a matter that most even "in the industry" don't care enough and all that shows is that all the points made ARE VALID and that in "not caring" they are ultimately helping themselves and the industry in general profit off everyone else?

I'm am reeeeeealy biting my tongue on this one.
Ot maybe its the fact that anything said isn't going to matter to the all knowing, so why bother.
Besides, not many of us have time to invest in a lifelong thread about humidifiers.

Lash
01-11-2014, 11:30 PM
If someone "in the industry" doesn't know, doesn't it show a lack of understanding of the principles involved in said industry? I would have to imagine such knowledge is shared by those within the industry at some level and the "answers" to all of this would have to be known. Why not share it?



How about because I paid A LOT of fucking money to go to school and educate myself and put my time in to gain experience. If I showed everybody how to install their own shit for free, what's the point of me going to school to make money? Just so I can educate everybody else and give away all my tips and secrets? You must live in a different world than me.

Prince Valiant
01-12-2014, 12:11 AM
It's a vast conspiracy. Provide poor service so that people's furnances fail early so that said HVAC pro's will have to install new furnances at considerable expense thus providing HVAC pro's with vast income. It's very obvious.

Lash
01-12-2014, 12:15 AM
I seriously hope that was sarcasm.
I never know with you.

wrath
01-12-2014, 07:03 AM
How about because I paid A LOT of fucking money to go to school and educate myself and put my time in to gain experience. If I showed everybody how to install their own shit for free, what's the point of me going to school to make money? Just so I can educate everybody else and give away all my tips and secrets? You must live in a different world than me.

You're doing it wrong. The reason you are paid to do your work is because other people don't want to do it and you do it faster.

I'm willing to bet the one you're lamenting about would actually do a better job than you and that's mostly due to caring and attention to detail. I'm 100% certain it would take much longer than you for him to complete the same amount of work and would likely starve to death if that was his source of income. I would also go so far as to say that he probably has a six figure income and learning things like this is a hobby for him. The same thing that drives him to learn about things like HVAC is what allows him to be successful at work.

I went to school and paid a lot more for it and every chance I get I tell someone how to do something because if I tell them how to do it so then I can do something else more fun (like learning something new). Which is why I have a cushy desk job that pays a lot.


It's a vast conspiracy. Provide poor service so that people's furnances fail early so that said HVAC pro's will have to install new furnances at considerable expense thus providing HVAC pro's with vast income. It's very obvious.

You sound like a consultant.

Lash
01-12-2014, 08:06 AM
So you're saying that somebody is going is to do a "better quality" job because of things they've learned on the Internet over somebody who went to school and has over 15 years experience along with continued education learning?
He can think he knows it all. But there are things that just can't be taught over the Internet. And there are things that shouldn't be taught over the Internet. But both of you always seem to know it all, so fuck it, do what you want. :)

I have no problem helping people out. It's the people who want everything for free or the dick bag know-it-all's that I refuse to help. He already weighed the pros and cons of each himself and made a decision on which one he wants. If I suggest one of the other, he'll probably just try and make an argument for the other.

Long story short (unlike some other people) I like the fan powered humidifiers better. Bypass humidifiers are robing the system of supply air and I don't like the fact that they send a bunch of humidity thru the air filter and blower assembly. With the fan assist models, I have seen some that leaked into the coil plenum and had water run down inside the plenum walls past the condensate pan and onto furnace components ruining them. Also, as already stated, they do leak air but its minimal. Odds are you are leaking far more air at every duct joint in the entire system because most systems aren't properly sealed before they get closed up into inaccessible areas. I know people that have both. You can find people that love each or hate both. The Aprilaire and Honeywell both work fine. IMO most resi humidifiers available off the shelf are hokey at best.

I'm just wondering why you need a humidifier in the first place. Not long ago you were posting about how roughly sealed your house was. Typically in that situation, you could have used an HVR system if you wanted to get fancy. Normally people don't need to add makeup air AND a humidification system.

I'm done here.

95 TA - The Beast
01-12-2014, 12:03 PM
Wow... Just, wow...

A discussion on the principles and effects of installing a humidifier turned into a bitch and moan session of why people get paid to install HVAC and why they deserve to get paid to do it???

How is that even a direct correlation?

Who even asked for information on how to install something???

A discussion on the pros and cons of various system designs in no way dictates a protectionist viewpoint. Obviously someone doesn't like the idea of people doing their own work in a realm they deem they need to "protect". I honestly don't think HVAC techs need to be worried about their profession considering how so few actually *want* to do their own work on their HVAC systems. Plus a humidifier is such a small portion that it is amazing someone would take that viewpoint.

In regards to PVs comment, what you stated as sarcasm is EXACTLY what Lash just outlined in his previous post being a protectionist of his profession. He even further explained that the bypass systems due, in fact, put unnecessary moisture though the filter and air handler system. Which will most certainly reduce the lifespan of both (and potentially be a death-knell to something like an electronic air cleaner, which is what I have). Yet those systems are installed all the time by HVAC pros, knowing that it will reduce the lifespan of those other components. Why would they do that? Would they make that same decision if it were THEIR home and equipment??? Which is the key point I was making in regards to "questionable" products.

Lash, in regards to needing makeup air and humidification, your correlation is backwards. In winter when you add dry cold air from the outside as makeup air it INCREASES your need to add humidification as it drys the air inside the house out even more. So, once the makeup air problem is resolved (ie, more cold dry outside air is brought in) the need for humidification increases. This is exacerbated by the fact that I added humidistats to the bathrooms so that excessive moisture does not build up in them (which happened in the past since it is obvious there was condensation issues in the bathrooms). Since these bathrooms do not have return ducting in them, only feeds, there is no way to properly distribute moist air from the bathrooms to other areas of the house directly. And yes, I didn't build the house so I am sure it is an overlooked part of the design criteria (again this place was originally designed with electric baseboard heat in mind with the ductwork added for central cooling and then a furnace added in as a backup that wasn't even used for the first 5 years).

I just cannot believe the attitudes in general. It is obvious some do not appreciate the amount of work someone else does to understand things, to break them down and offer them for an advanced discussion that allows others to learn. It is not a matter of "knowing it all", it is a matter of learning. Sorry if some feel either inadequate or others are put-off because someone is "in their territory", but it is not like I am advocating that HVAC pros are ignorant or incompetent. Making proper decisions on everything is life is everyones responsibility and just because some don't want to fall into the pitfalls of "blindly trusting" businesses and "pros" doesn't mean they don't give those same businesses and "pros" the business to do things either they can't or do not want to do. It is just that they refuse to be "duped" into bad decision making by those with potentially ulterior motives. Look at dealerships and auto repair places, as they are notorious for selling repairs and services that are not needed or required. I would venture that if every dealer went "honest" in how they deal with customers (including warranty billables) you would find a large percentage go under.

None of this is a matter of "knowing it all", it is a matter of making prudent decisions. And trust me, I know people in all sorts of professions and have heard the "protectionist" viewpoint in regards to everything from auto repair (like hearing someone rip others in doing brake jobs because "they shouldn't be allowed to" because it keeps him from making more money on those jobs people do themselves for example) to electrical (on how someone shouldn't be allowed to buy switches and outlets and breakers when "a licensed electrician should be required by code" to do the work) to carpentry, other professions and even computers... Fact of the matter is none of those things have gotten to the point where just anyone can do them, so there will always be a need for those professions. Sure the evolution of products and the marketplace have made it harder to find a "niche" in a lot of things, and those niches sometimes end up being doing things that people don't want to do and aren't the "gravy" that was available in years prior, but they still require "experts" in doing what they do. Look at windows. Hard to find places that will do sash repairs as everyone wants the big profits by selling new windows. Doesn't even make sense in a lot of cases, but the available options to find someone to do the repairs vs a replacement are more and more difficult to find.

Oh, and the idea that the internet is the "only" source of information is a pretty flawed assumption. And to assume that things like HVAC can't be understood is another. All the materials you learned from and all the texts published on the subject are available to anyone that wants to look for them. Physics, flow dynamics, the math involved in all the calcs, the load tables, all the reference materials used in design, evaluation, monitoring and implementation are all available in many forms. And like I said before, certain things, such as sheet metal work, I will fully agree with that it is hands on to get good at, but again, that wasn't even part of this discussion. This discussion was on the pros and cons of humidifiers. I kept it to that topic and discussed the technical merits and downfalls of all the various types. I gave an opinion that was taken as a definitive statement. That was not the case. Sorry if some take things out of context, but it is obvious, regardless how well you explain things, or how much detail you go into, others will always take their own perspective on things and interject plenty that does not exist based on their own bias.

jbiscuit
01-12-2014, 12:11 PM
And we have a new longest post on Bcm! Worth noting, I had to scroll to see it all on my phone! Note I said "see" it all. Not READ it all. It's tough to tell who is the resident know it all on Bcm. One could argue the longer the post, the more the bullshit factor! This is tough!

Lash
01-12-2014, 01:44 PM
Some of the newer homes these days run a HRV system and no humidifier. My sister has one in here house and its fantastic. What you have now (depending on how yours is installed) might be an unregulated amount of outside air coming into the house. With tightly sealed homes its not hard at all to reach a 35-40% or higher humidity level on its own. With an HRV system you can regulate the amount of outside air coming in by controlling it off of the furnace AND by a negative pressure switch so that makeup air is only brought in on a need basis. This way it still allows the tightly sealed house to naturally maintain a 35% humidity level just by being occupied without assists means and allow fresh air into the system. Bottom line of hat most people are going to tell you is, either your house is't as tightly sealed as you think or you don't need as much humidification as you think. I haven't read your book, but have you tested the humidity level? Why do you think you need extra humidification?

95 TA - The Beast
01-12-2014, 02:05 PM
Humidity levels have reached 18-19%... Static charge buildups, dryness in lips/hands and most importantly shrinking of wood, all the major factors why we need humidification...

In regards to the furnace, it is an older 80% efficient unit with a natural updraft flue, thus is sucks out air from inside the house a lot, thus my need for makeup air. I circumvented the need to add a makeup combustion air port into the house by using a custom circuit to shut off the blower fan during furnace ignition. I have noticed complete and full updraft with no backdrafting since I implemented it. I also installed proper damper doors on the bathroom vents, so I know it is not pulling air back in through them (which is contributing to the lack of humidity compared to what it was like when we moved in and there were none). I do know exactly where air is making it's way in through an improperly sealed wire/pipe egress at he back of the house. That is the only place you can feel a cool draft come in and since I am concerned that if I sealed that up fully I would end up with air coming in the only way it can, through the chimney flues, that could cause a larger backdraft issues, so I am leaving that egress point the way it is... It isn't blowing in cool air, but you can tell it is coming in there when you put your hand up by it...

If I were to go with a newer high-efficiency furnace I would most certainly seal up that area and go with a HRV system... Just that for the current design of the systems in the home it doesn't make sense. I also have issues finding inlet/outlet points that would mess with the aesthetics of the house.

95 TA - The Beast
01-12-2014, 02:07 PM
And we have a new longest post on Bcm! Worth noting, I had to scroll to see it all on my phone! Note I said "see" it all. Not READ it all. It's tough to tell who is the resident know it all on Bcm. One could argue the longer the post, the more the bullshit factor! This is tough!

Jason, you and Chris both, again, have the same problem... Stop posting in threads if you have nothing to add of value. You only bitch and moan because of your own inferiority complexes. You both showed how much of a problem you both have, yet again.

Lash
01-12-2014, 02:19 PM
The best case for you the is indeed a fan assisted model. They do make some really nice steam systems but those can run $700 and up. Just keep an eye on it and check the filter, water line, and solenoid often. Wisconsin water seems to be particularly hard on them. The Honeywell and Aprilaire are similar in design and function for the most part.

As far as why people install they bypass type.... They seem to work fine for most people. I just don't like them.

That's about all of my opinion on the subject. I'm more used to the 20ton-200ton and up realm of things. I don't like resi.

95 TA - The Beast
01-12-2014, 04:20 PM
Lash, thanks for the feedback... Much appreciated.

Lash
01-12-2014, 04:30 PM
There is a couple more things to think about too. I don't know how long your systems runs but if its calling for heat and only runs 15 minutes you might be better off with a steam system. Otherwise you should be fine with a fan assist. Another think to consider is water usage. While the fan assist versions use less power they use a lot of water. Typically for every 22 gal put into the airstream, it'll use about 100 gallons of water. The steam versions use a lot less water, but the electricity consumption is pretty high. The fan assisted versions also have the option to tie into a hot water line instead of cold, but while they work better using hot, you are paying additional operating costs of heating that water and pouring most of it down the drain. Steam systems tend to be more finicky, but when your are trying to humidify a larger house with one system (instead of two or even three furnaces) they tend to work better because they have a higher production rate. You can add install two fan assisted types if you have the room on your plenum.
The size that you need and the amount of humidification is dependent on many factors. Occupancy level, humidity rise needed, sq. footage, home leakage rate. Iirc you have around 5k sq.ft. It might be a little tricky since you have a single system. The pad can assisted models will say up to 6k sq. ft., but getting that tends to be their upper limit of production.

jbiscuit
01-12-2014, 05:31 PM
:rolf

BoosTT
01-12-2014, 06:06 PM
Guess someone doesn't need to worry about the minimum characters per post.

Seriously, learn to use fewer words. I hope you don't send emails that long.

95 TA - The Beast
01-12-2014, 07:00 PM
Lash, actually I run the blower fan 24/7 with the only time it stopping is to ignite the burners and get the draft going up the flue. But I do know what you mean about it needing to have the heat going to optimally get moisture into the air. As it stands in the really cold weather (say -5 for 2-3 days) I have noticed the furnace running for 12 or so hours a day at most. I have never seen it hit 13 hours. And that is with keeping the house at 70 degrees everywhere.

I will admit, I am hoping that with a humidifier I can keep the temp around 68 degrees with the same relative comfort level. So there is "hopefully" an energy upside as well.

And I will be using hot water as a supply instead of cold water. We heat the water to 140 degrees in the water heater, so hopefully that will offer an edge on producing moisture as well.

MY concern with steam units is the size needed and the overall long-term reliability. I have read a lot of horror stories about most of the top units on the market, so I figured I would give that tech a few years to mature before jumping on that bandwagon.

I have kept track of our water consumption pretty closely and we use about 320 gallons a day on average. Not bad for a family of 8 in the house really. We do have all high-efficiency appliances so that helps. But, that is also with a water softener cycling every 6 days as well with full backwash and rinse cycles too, so that uses quite a bit of water as well.

95 TA - The Beast
01-14-2014, 02:52 PM
I ended up picking up a Honeywell HE300 that was used for less than a month. The previous owner had problems with it leaking. That was caused by the fact he had it right next to the a-coil and air was being diverted directly into it causing a ton of turbulence and in turn causing a lot of water to be thrown around inside. On this version of the HE300 the drain is not the lowest point in the case. In the later revision it is molded in a way where the drain is the lowest point and it alleviates this issue.

Considering I got this unit along with new lines for less than $25 (or ~$45 with a brand a new anti-microbial coated pad) and it is basically brand new, I have already come up with a solution. I will be using sealing mastic to buildup a funneled bottom to the humidifier. It will cost all of $4 and about a half hours time and it will be "fixed"... In my install I may not even have this issue since I plan on installing it above the a-coil on the end of the a-coil, not the side. I am sure it will still get *some* turbulence, thus why I am taking care of this issue.

Now I am back to deciding what to do about humidity control. I have the included mechanical humidity controller, but since I have been considering a Honeywell Prestige IAQ 2.0 HD thermostat setup, now might be the perfect time to go that route.

awsomeears
01-14-2014, 04:38 PM
There are SBP ( small by-pass ) LBP ( large by-pass ) and Fan Power

Choosing one all depends on the Furnace for ideal operation, if your furnace is a single stage a by-pass is great, if your furnace is 2-stage you WILL FOR SURE need a power assist. When I say power assist I mean there is actually a miniature fan blowing/forcing the humidity into the duct work system. Two stage furnace usually run on low stage 80% of the heating season and they just don't have the CFM are movement to pull proper air across the humidifier pad that is Moist, hahahaha moist !!!

I have installed Aprilaire, Honeywell, Bryant, Brauburn.

Hands down Aprilaire is the Best, not only is it the best but there all priced the same so choose the aprilaire.

Also there is Manual option and Automatic option, manual means as the temperature changes outside you must walk to the control that is mounted downstairs and adjust it, Automatic is just that, you set it once ehhh possibly twice if your totally new to it and you leave it alone for how ever many years your in the home.

Automatic versions have a sensor that you place outside, the sensor takes a temperature sends it to the control, control does a % calculation and determines what ideal for the setting of where you want it.

:thumbsup

I will just Quote this guy, ohh wait that was me, I keep things simple.

One note as your talking about steam humidifiers.

Steam humidifiers are the WORST New product out there, my work went through HELL with them, typical fashion we were sold on them by the " Ohhh my Lord its new and cool and technically advanced "

But after 3 years to date of melting Boards, melting plastic ( dry firing ) and constant calls of " my electric bills are very high " we decided to do the Honorable thing and replace everyone that we came across that we installed. There is not ONE company ( maybe I guess ) that would do this, but we are very honorable, we have finally replaced them all with Aprilaire 700A's and everyone is happy !!!

I think we sold around 20-25 total witch is quite a bit as they were not cheap to install...

Yes you read that right, we installed a NEW fancy product and had such a massive FAIL that we felt very responsible for it and corrected it by installing what we enjoy installing because of the High success rate, were talking 12-15grand.... YIKES !!!

The steam humidifier was over engineered similar to somebody's posts :goof

Lash
01-14-2014, 05:39 PM
Hey! We replace shit for free all the time! We must work at the same place! :goof


Which make/model steam humidifiers?

They serve a purpose for large single zone areas. But you usually have to get a pretty high end unit and install it a little bit downstream of the furnace. I suppose even then its not guaranteed. But I'm not sure much is in this industry anymore.

95 TA - The Beast
01-14-2014, 06:24 PM
Yeah, that is why I mentioned that every single residential steam unit on the market has dismal reviews... They all seem to fail and even if the element and circuit boards and solenoid valves survive, the cases themselves are destroyed... That and the electrical cost to operate was why they weren't even in the running as an option...

awsomeears
01-14-2014, 07:50 PM
Hey! We replace shit for free all the time! We must work at the same place! :goof


Which make/model steam humidifiers?

They serve a purpose for large single zone areas. But you usually have to get a pretty high end unit and install it a little bit downstream of the furnace. I suppose even then its not guaranteed. But I'm not sure much is in this industry anymore.

Honeywell True steam...

The lower portion where the water would store would over heat causing the plastic to discolor, even into a few months of use the Scale would be so thick it would be hard to chip off, there THOUGHT was to slam COLD water in there and heat up the Element and blast all the calcium off and just like MAGIC wash all of it down the drain.

I have really good patients with HVAC as you just have to but these I gave up on, called my boss and told him these are Junk and we need to do something about it.

On big stuff I could see steam is needed as the Volume just demands it and steam has to be the answer

95 TA - The Beast
01-17-2014, 07:09 PM
The Honeywell HE300 is installed and operating. I am running it off a simple SPST dial humidistat for now, but am looking to go with the Prestige HD 2.0 setup soon.

I pulled one of the ducts off the top of the plenum and used an inspection camera and recorded the inside of the supply plenum above the a-coil. It looked like there would be plenty of space at the end of the a-coil and I verified it with a 3/4' pipe insulation "noodle" since the diameter of it is exactly the same as the depth of the HE300 in-plenum. Worked out great, so I was happy I had the exact mounting location I wanted, because if it didn't the only other location was where I wanted to put a removeable wall when I remodel the utility area. This way the wall can go where I want it to without needing to have a cutout for the humidifier.

The install wasn't a big deal, and the plumbing and everything else was straightforward. I tee'd into the condensate drain line for the a-coil, since they are both 1/2" vinyl drain line and since only one or the other will be operating at a given time with neither running simultaneously. I used a simple saddle-valve for now, but I plan on draining and flushing the water heaters in spring (yearly maintenance) so I will swap out the saddle valve for a sweated in-place regular valve at that time. I already have the valve and tee to install it so the saddle valve should be fine until then.

I will say the lack of proper clips to affix 1/4" water line at the big hardware stores is amazing... I ended up using coax-cable retainers since they are self-adjusting and include the screws to mount them.

I was considering putting in copper water line instead of the supplied plastic, but I figure by the time I need to replace the humidifier will be about the same time to replace the water line and I will evaluate it at that time.

Oh, and the duct-sealed filling on the lower casing works like a charm to funnel water to the drain.

Lash
01-17-2014, 07:25 PM
Was it the brush on sealer in the buckett?

If it was, the water based stuff can wash away and collect mold. Oil base is better anytime moisture is involved, but your typical hardware store doesn't carry that.

95 TA - The Beast
01-18-2014, 10:09 AM
Actually I used the Gardner-Bender putty-like stuff that comes in a 1lb pug. I used just over a pug and a half. It stays pliable and doesn't dry out/shrink.

System has been in use since yesterday and we already have an almost 10% increase in humidity... You can tell a difference in the air already in the house. When petting the dog you don't get static buildup anymore. Loving it.

Korndogg
01-18-2014, 10:53 AM
Just make sure you adjust as necessary with the outside temp. Your windows will frost and freeze up in no time!

Lash
01-18-2014, 11:48 AM
Typically 29-30% is optimal for the temps we've been having. Anything higher and you risk condensation issues.

95 TA - The Beast
01-18-2014, 11:54 AM
Yeah, that is why I am really wanting to go with the Prestige system... It has all the humidity vs outside temp management stuff built in... If I can't get a complete system at a decent enough price I will go with a IAQ humidity standalone with an outside sensor for like $50 or so, since that will also do that management. The Prestige would just be a more integrated and complete solution.

Korndogg
01-18-2014, 12:01 PM
I have an Infinity thermostat which could control everything but I decided to go with the manual route for now. Some day I might hook it up but I don't mind running down to the basement to change it.

awsomeears
01-18-2014, 02:23 PM
I have an Infinity thermostat which could control everything but I decided to go with the manual route for now. Some day I might hook it up but I don't mind running down to the basement to change it.

Then you have a carrier system ?

upper left hand corner button if pressed once will tell you the indoor humidity.

Korndogg
01-18-2014, 02:29 PM
yep, and I know how the thermostat works lol.

95 TA - The Beast
01-20-2014, 08:20 AM
Well, after a few days and the humidity being where it *should* be, I have dropped the thermostat to 68 from 70 and no-one is complaining... I will give it a few more days, but hopefully it will end up saving us some money...

awsomeears
01-20-2014, 11:13 PM
yep, and I know how the thermostat works lol.

Well well well, actually I have yet to find a customer that knew that, I should have known.... you do know how to check your fault codes and change the CFM via that stat right ?

95 TA - The Beast
01-21-2014, 03:47 PM
As a FYI to anyone that might be installing their own unit(s), turns out there is a great alternative to the Honeywell 50027910-001 Differential Pressure Switch, and that is the Lefoo LF32-02 20-200Pa differential pressure switch. It is available from Amazon.com for $16.99 instead of $40-54 for the Honeywell switch. And before anyone says anything about the Honeywell being "American Made" vs the Chinese Lefoo, Lefoo OEMs the Honeywell switch for Honeywell. So essentially you are buying from the same company, just cutting out the middleman (Honeywell).

Trust me, I do like the fact that Honeywell makes a ton of stuff in the USA. But, just like any big company it just makes sense to source certain things from overseas manufacturers, and the pressure differential switches are one of those items.

BTW, the only difference in switches is the Honeywell actuates at 10Pa (.04"WC) compared to the adjustable 20-200Pa Lefoo. Either one will work just fine for air proving in a residential HVAC system. Just be sure to hookup both the supply and return plenums to the negative and positive pressure ports respectively, especially if you have a low speed or variable speed blower.

I will also add that the Lefoo includes nice air-supply nipples and screws for mounting to the plenums, as well as 1/4" vinyl supply line. The air nipples do not include washers or grommets as all you need is a 1/4" hole in the plenum itself and then you use silicon to seal the nipple to the plenum as the nipples have raised lips to allow for extra silicon in the gap for normal expansion/contraction to keep the nipple sealed long-term. The Honeywell only supplies grommets and elbows and line in comparison, so the Lefoo setup is a much nicer kit overall, IMHO. I also like the idea of only 1/4" holes vs 3/4" holes in the plenums.

Korndogg
01-21-2014, 03:52 PM
Well well well, actually I have yet to find a customer that knew that, I should have known.... you do know how to check your fault codes and change the CFM via that stat right ?

lol yeah sorry I wasn't trying to sound like a dick haha. Yeah I know how to get into the service menu and all of that. My dad is a Carrier service tech :p

Lash
01-21-2014, 04:41 PM
If your dad is a service tech, what the hell happened to you?!?

Korndogg
01-21-2014, 05:06 PM
I'm doing pretty well that's what happened to me lol. He is the one that told me to get into the union side of it.

awsomeears
01-21-2014, 07:23 PM
Our furnace grave yard is 90% carriers/bryants... its crazy how many are failing past 18+ years, ask him if he has seen a up tick on secondary heat exchangers plugging up. Unless he is in commercial, commercial the ones I have worked on are very well built

Korndogg
01-21-2014, 07:26 PM
He is commercial now and has been for quite some time. He still works on resi from time to time when he is on call though. When he first started, we worked for Trane, then he had his own company for a while until like 89 or so, and now he mostly works on carriers from what I know. I know he works on others but they specialize in Carrier.

JC70SS
01-22-2014, 02:50 PM
If you buy one make sure that every possible air leak to your attic is sealed. If not, in the winter humid air will get up there, frost forms on the underside of the roof deck. The melting will obviously cause moisture and after years of use there is your mold. Perhaps some of you people with these units should go have a look up in your attic to see if you have frost.

Korndogg
01-22-2014, 03:28 PM
Attic is double insulated. It's been dry every time I've been up there.

95 TA - The Beast
01-22-2014, 03:35 PM
JC70SS, yeah the "attic" space here is completely seperated from the rest of the house... So much so it is completely sealed off... Plus, since this place has extensive gabled ceilings on the upper floor, the "attic" is no more than a 6' wide x 15' long x 8' high space above the center hallway in the middle of the house.

I actually wish they would have made that another "room" or storage area since the only thing in there is a vent from one of the bathrooms and the sanitary stack main vent goes through up there... I have cosnidered doing something like that, but it would require building a stairwell in the closet that adjoins that space. And since that closet isn't heated or cooled (no vents or heaters installed in there), it would take a lot of work to install proper heat/cooling/venting in both spaces to make them truely useable...

That "attic" does have the exposed ridge venting above tho, so it ventilates with the outside just fine... All the wallspaces and everything in there is moisture barrier'd and filled with 18" thick bats of insulation...

95 TA - The Beast
01-22-2014, 03:47 PM
Oh, and I ordered the redesigned Prestige 2.0 system... It includes an outdoor sensor and 2 duct sensors as well as the equipment interface module. I also ordered up 2 wireless indoor sensors and an internet gateway so all of it can be monitored via smartphone... I wanted to order a eConnect electric baseboard redlink thermostat, but they are unavailable just about anywhere that has reasonable prices, so I picked one up off eBay.

This way I can do my final setup this weekend and be done with HVAC stuff outside of cleaning filters and cells until spring when I have to do the AC system checkup. That should be no biggie since I replaced the contactor, capacitor and condenser fan motor last summer.

About the only thing I *may* add is a UV air purifier...

I was looking at the Honeywell UV2400U5000 UV air purifier setup since it is 24v and would integrate nicely.

Do any of you HVAC experts have an opinion in regards to how well UV purifiers work?