another black on white mob attack, state fair

[pOrk]

Seriously wtf???

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2758991/posts

[GTSLOW]

Awesome just awesome.

[Crawlin]

Can't wait for CCW!

Where was security for all of this? There are ALWAYS cops roaming the lot by the ice rink. There are always cops parked over by the walgreen's mcd's on the other side?

Find it hard to believe that there was no ability to control something like this unless a couple of the cops were just sitting back waiting for backup (true soldiers :rolleyes:)

[Firefighter Z]

If there was over 100 people there and causing property damage and injury to others, isn't it called a riot then?

I foresee that things are going to get worse...

My Dad called me up this morning, btw he lives in Michigan and he saw the news, he'll be packing heat when he comes down to visit me.

[Taetsch Z-24]

CCW?!

Ill open carry my M4...

[pOrk]

Usually West Allis PD is on top of things like this, but a mob is a mob. Really sucks that the places a lot of us call home is slowlt turning into a war zone. Makes me sick

[Taetsch Z-24]

^^

http://ls7gto.net/sh1t/Pics/USMC/colt-m4-parts-09.jpg

"Tap, Rack, Bang!"

[-stew-]

Find it hard to believe that there was no ability to control something like this unless a couple of the cops were just sitting back waiting for backup (true soldiers :rolleyes:)

Don't go bad mouthing heroes!

[Crawlin]

Don't go bad mouthing heroes!

With the amount of crowds passing through that property, they have to have a specific ratio of security personnel and law enforcement.

HOW the hell does somthing like this happen at a place like that? How does it not get broken up quickly? Where were the law enforcement? I'll stand with what I said, if they just sat back and let people get beat so they wouldn't get overrun, then they don't deserve to wear a uniform.

To serve and protect(only when convenient)

PS - change your signature pic size. I don't mind you expressing your socialist agreement views by flying that banner, just don't overrun the screen like Yoosof said.

[Crawlin]

Usually West Allis PD is on top of things like this, but a mob is a mob. Really sucks that the places a lot of us call home is slowlt turning into a war zone. Makes me sick

Don't you hate it when stereotypes are confirmed?

If this were a white on black thing (cough cough Duke LaX players cough cough) youd have jesse jackson and al sharpton racing here to be on TV

[noeggs4u]

Animals are restless again.

[Waver]

Complete bullshit.....I hope those "young african american youths" each get the ever loving snot kicked out of them! Several things wrong with this. No parenting, people having kids just to get a bigger check and not giving a shit about their up bringing. This is how race wars get started.

[88Nightmare]

http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/126825018.html?page=5
Goes into a bit more detail

Of course none of these individuals were at the Run DMC concert... none of them could afford to get in, so lets beat down the ones who could!

Fuckers.


One can't help but wonder that even if CCW were currently in effect when this happened, would places like State Fair, Summerfest...etc ban guns on the premises? You would think so.... so if thats the case, CCW wouldn't necessarily have done much here. (BTW I am FOR CCW, just thinking about the possibilities in this situation)

[PureSound15]

I'm probably going to need reparations for this...


---

- Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Waver]

I love how the media is treating this...Isolated incident....so there is no pissible connection between this, mayfair, and river west? Come on. There is a huge problem going on here, and I am willing to bet, before CC goes into effect, that we will have more.

[88Nightmare]

and I'm willing to bet after CC, we'll have one more, then never again (at least of this magnitude)

[Taetsch Z-24]

One can't help but wonder that even if CCW were currently in effect when this happened, would places like State Fair, Summerfest...etc ban guns on the premises? You would think so.... so if thats the case, CCW wouldn't necessarily have done much here. (BTW I am FOR CCW, just thinking about the possibilities in this situation)

Just like we used to say...

"better to be judged by twelve then carried by six"

If any of them feared for his or her own life, they could have shot and killed any one of the suspects, and only been guilty of a misdemeanor CCW violation.

[88Nightmare]

I agree, but if you arent allowed to carry into state fair grounds, getting attacked as you leave would put you in a somewhat defenseless situation

[hrsp]

i have a crazy feeling that some "good law abiding people" who stand up for themselves or others in this situation will be arrested and charged with a crime...It makes me fucking sick to think about it but i see it happening...just like how the MPD is being questioned for the rise of police shootings and what not...They do there job and deal with fucking loosers everyday and put there lives on the line everyday and when they have to use force they get treated like the fucking bad guy...its fucking disgusting...then you see the parent (yes parent NOT parents) on T.V saying My baby was a good boy and they didnt have to shoot him!! besides the fact that he shot at them and tried to run away and was robbing somebody or doing things that "good boys do" UM NO! I could rant about this shit for hours and hours of how fucked up so many people are....lastly with this "mob" shit going on...any person that an officer see's doing "dumb" shit should instantly fucking tazed and arrested. These Fucking animals think they can get away with whatever they want...When something finally gets done then they screram and cry that the police are to forceful...Here's a VERY VERY VERY crazy idea...ok listen close....Dont Act like a fucking animal and you wont be treated like one...dont shoot at the cops if you dont want to get shot at by them. lastly have a drivers license and own the car your driving and have the registration up to date and PLEASE have insurance. thanks im looking forward to going to state fair tonight!! :)

[animal]

Animals are restless again.

But I wasn't even at state fair yesterday :goof

[WhatsADSM]

That's messed up.

[OxmanWI]

Well after reading about last night’s racially-charged mob at State Fair, I believe if this shit continues in Milwaukee we need to bring in the National Guard to control the streets around Milwaukee. And on top of that it's about fucking time this state has concealed carry. Maybe next time one of these fucks decides to assault another person they'll be looking down a barrel and think twice!

[BR3W CITY]

Its been a while since this country has had a large riot; when was the last one, 4/26/92? Im guessing Milwaukee might be the next one. Im thinking we get a hot week again in mid to late august, the animals get restless and it pops off.

I got my shit ready, but if it happens....take no prisoners (and loot like a motherfucker :) )

[DynoTom]

I was walking right by this as it just started and I was probably the closest person to this without being invloved in it ! I was walking my dog and heard some kids yelling shit . I then seen a single WAPD car stop at the corner and put the spotlight on them and pull up to a LARGE crowd of kids....It did not take more than a minute before a seen a parade of over 15 police cars pulling up.. I did not know any details until this news artical but, I knew it was something pretty bad....I saw the TV station camera guy taking video about a couple minutes after it started...

[OxmanWI]

Its been a while since this country has had a large riot; when was the last one, 4/26/92? Im guessing Milwaukee might be the next one. Im thinking we get a hot week again in mid to late august, the animals get restless and it pops off.

I got my shit ready, but if it happens....take no prisoners (and loot like a motherfucker :) )

I was thinking the same thing, I've been looking at ammo deals.

[Nix]

They are a waste of flesh, every single one of them. I too believe that once CC goes in to effect and only after we have several stories about people shooting others in "self-defence" that maybe these punks will get the hint, then again maybe not. Some weeks ago was there not a mob style attack at a gas station? The clerk may have had a weapon but they still destroyed the place.

What ever happened to curfew restrictions?

[DynoTom]

One cop was asking a black girl there what her middle initial was and the girl did not answer , he asked again and again and then she said " A " mutha fuc*ker !

[austena123]

Wow. This is why I have taken my CCW class.

[Flicktitty]

What does CCW have to deal with this? Short of them attacking you to where you feel as if you will die does not allow you to SHOOT them.

[Josepy]

What does CCW have to deal with this? Short of them attacking you to where you feel as if you will die does not allow you to SHOOT them.

Just pulling out a gun and I would bet they would all turn and run. That right there is what is has to do with it. I can tell you if I am with my family and a mob comes up and goes after us I am going to take out as many as I can. I still bet they turn and run. I pray that I never have to use deadly force EVER. If it means protecting my family game on.

[Waver]

LOL @ everyone with their Rambo ammo belts over their shoulders being keyboard vigilante.

Better than being a keyboard martyr.


Just pulling out a gun and I would bet they would all turn and run. That right there is what is has to do with it. I can tell you if I am with my family and a mob comes up and goes after us I am going to take out as many as I can. I still bet they turn and run. I pray that I never have to use deadly force EVER. If it means protecting my family game on.

Spoken for truth

[Exitspeed]

It must be so embarrassing being a black person who is a good, hard working person and living in Milwaukee.

What is going to stop this behavior is my question.

[350-Z28]

I only caught part of the story this morning and they didnt have details on it, but I had guessed that it was a black mob on white, stereotypes exist for a reason, and it is incredibly unfortunate that animals like these continue to prove the stereotypes true. On the conceal carry side of things I totally agree, most of the benefits to this law come as a deterrent when you are threatened, not as an excuse to run around and blast people. If I were trying to rob someone and they pulled out a piece and had it leveled at my head I would think twice, and if I decided to continue in the act I would not begrudge them for getting myself shot.

[DynoTom]

I stood around and watched about 20 mintutes and I can tell you it was a very hard situation to get under control . When the first cop pulled up a bunch of them scattered all directions but, there was a main group of about 10 that were fighting ....I did get a little concerned at first when some of the kids scattered in my direction ( I had no idea what they did until the news this morning ) they got about 50 feet away from me and switched to the other side of the street and then MCS gathered them all up...I don't know if my 130 lb Great Dane made a difference or not but, I do know they left me alone.....

[michelle]

I love reading the news article comments.


West Allis resident - Aug 05, 2011 8:38 AM»
When will the finger pointing stop… the young black population has already suffered enough with false accusations that are nothing but racist. The government owes everyone over 18 years of age a good paying job and then we will all live in harmony.

[brotherbenn83]

Maybe these kids just wanted to go to jail so they could FINALLY meet their dads...

[Cryptic]

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110517110957/creepypasta/images/0/06/Thats_racist.gif

[Moparjim]

What does CCW have to deal with this? Short of them attacking you to where you feel as if you will die does not allow you to SHOOT them.

Actually, you can also shoot them in defense of another person's life as well.

I would think you would be perfectly justified in drawing on, warning, and ultimately shooting these people that according to the article were beating and kicking motionless already badly beaten people that were laying on the ground. If that is truly what happened, I bet some of the victims were indeed beaten in a life threatening manner, and I am surprised noone was killed. Full force kicks to the head of a defenseless person on the ground or even falls or tackles to the concrete can indeed kill people.

[WilliamZ]

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110517110957/creepypasta/images/0/06/Thats_racist.gif

Hahaha best gif yet!

[97z2801ss]

I bet gun sales go up this next week and a girl whoe works for my aunlives right there and two black girls came down the street saying if your white goinside they are targeting u. then a car pulled up infront of where she lives and 3 black guys got out and went to the trunk and got guns. what the hell is this world comming to a colored kid i used to work with told me about racewars that think is going to take place maybe this is a start?

CCW-sign me up.

first bayshore, mayfair, summerfest,resivior park/riverwest, and now the state fair! whats next? and how are they communicating FB a site or just via cell phones

[GTSLOW]

Can you conceal carry one of those 410 shotgun round pistols??? Now that would be sweet!

[Wagonbacker9]

Can't wait for CCW!

this was my exact reaction...

[Josepy]

Can you conceal carry one of those 410 shotgun round pistols??? Now that would be sweet!

You mean the Judge and S&W new one called the governor. yes you can.

[Taetsch Z-24]

I agree, but if you arent allowed to carry into state fair grounds, getting attacked as you leave would put you in a somewhat defenseless situation


"better to be judged by twelve then carried by six"

We would do it anyways, Non of us had a GA CCW... but we all had our personal sidearms at all times off base.

[Yooformula]

Funny how many people claim to be able to shoot them down in self defense. So many able bodied people were hit from behind or gang beat all at once. What happens when you get hit from behind and one of them TAKES your licensed gun from you?

How do you witness THIS \/ and not begin hitting the little animals with your car!!

"Eric then claimed that he saw hundreds of young black people coming down a sidewalk.

"I saw them grab this white kid who was probably 14 or 15 years old. They just flung him into the road. They just jumped on him and started beating him. They were kicking him. He was on the ground. A girl picked up a construction sign and pushed it over on top of him. They were just running by and kicking him in the face."

Then, Eric talked about trying to get out of the car to help the victim.

"My wife pulled me back in because she didn't want me to get hit. Thankfully, there was surprising a lady that was in the car in front of me that jumped out of the car real quick and went over there to try to put her body around the kid so they couldn't see he was laying there and, obviously, defenseless. Her husband, or whoever was in the car, was screaming at her to get back into the car. She ended up going back into the car. These black kids grabbed this kid off the ground again, and pulled him up over the curb, onto the sidewalk and threw him into the bushes like he was a piece of garbage."

[Josepy]

Funny how many people claim to be able to shoot them down in self defense. So many able bodied people were hit from behind or gang beat all at once. What happens when you get hit from behind and one of them TAKES your licensed gun from you?
"[/I]

I only see that happening if I get knocked out from behind. Gun will be tucked in waist of the pants. What would you do?

[Yooformula]

I would probably do the same thing but it does worry me that the licensed carrying person, his family or others could be the victim with that weapon. I simply wont be going to the fair, makes no sense in even risking a run in with these animals.

Although I wouldnt mind heading down with a bunch of friends and pretend to be a good target to draw them in then have some REAL fun.

[Josepy]

I would probably do the same thing but it does worry me that the licensed carrying person, his family or others could be the victim with that weapon. I simply wont be going to the fair, makes no sense in even risking a run in with these animals.

Although I wouldnt mind heading down with a bunch of friends and pretend to be a good target to draw them in then have some REAL fun.



Well yeah I wont be going either. Think I have been there once in my lifetime anyways.

[Nix]

We are heading down there on Sunday. I'll be damned if Im gonna let some little fucks ruin what I enjoy doing

[SCHM1AN]

Funny how many people claim to be able to shoot them down in self defense. So many able bodied people were hit from behind or gang beat all at once. What happens when you get hit from behind and one of them TAKES your licensed gun from you?

How do you witness THIS \/ and not begin hitting the little animals with your car!!

"Eric then claimed that he saw hundreds of young black people coming down a sidewalk.

"I saw them grab this white kid who was probably 14 or 15 years old. They just flung him into the road. They just jumped on him and started beating him. They were kicking him. He was on the ground. A girl picked up a construction sign and pushed it over on top of him. They were just running by and kicking him in the face."

Then, Eric talked about trying to get out of the car to help the victim.

"My wife pulled me back in because she didn't want me to get hit. Thankfully, there was surprising a lady that was in the car in front of me that jumped out of the car real quick and went over there to try to put her body around the kid so they couldn't see he was laying there and, obviously, defenseless. Her husband, or whoever was in the car, was screaming at her to get back into the car. She ended up going back into the car. These black kids grabbed this kid off the ground again, and pulled him up over the curb, onto the sidewalk and threw him into the bushes like he was a piece of garbage."

This really gets my blood boiling! I've never been to the State Fair, and my girlfriend and I were thinking of going, but instead just went to the Ozaukee County fair and laid low. Boy, am I glad we didn't end up going... but just in case, I have a utility knife in my pocket at all times. I agree with the race riot comments-- it's not a matter of when, but where.

[Old Dog]

They were just practicing for African World festival tomorrow.

[Taetsch Z-24]

Funny how many people claim to be able to shoot them down in self defense. So many able bodied people were hit from behind or gang beat all at once. What happens when you get hit from behind and one of them TAKES your licensed gun from you?


My mind would go back to weapon retention (assuming I have not broad cast intentions and indexed location of side arm), Voice commands, distance, and if need be, to draw and double tap each target center mass.

[TheRX7Project]

My mind would go back to weapon retention (assuming I have not broad cast intentions and indexed location of side arm), Voice commands, distance, and if need be, to draw and double tap each target center mass.

It's a shame I moved. I used to live within pissing distance, could've stood on top of my front porch and seen it all through the scope on my .308. Although right now I am pretty low on ammo.

[-stew-]

i love how every one is just sitting here woulda-coulda-shoulda'ing this. Everyone in this thread = this guy...


http://www.helloamanda.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/best_guy_ever.jpg

[twicks69]

Sweet, he's got 8 guns, he definitely would stand a chance against a mob of 100+ black people. I think I would be pulling out a substantially larger gun...like a truck mounted 50-caliber on an armored HUMVEE. National Guard would be a smart answer.

Tim Zimmer via Evo Phone

[Larrygto]

The state should get involved and take the welfare checks away from any parent who's kids are involved in this stuff! Then the parent might give two shits where there kids are going at night.

[Slow5oh]

The state should get involved and take the welfare checks away from any parent who's kids are involved in this stuff! Then the parent might give two shits where there kids are going at night.

Or just drug test for them, I'm sure the state would save tons of money.

[TheRX7Project]

Or just drug test for them, I'm sure the state would save tons of money.

Or audit where the money is going, seems like they spend a lot of money on non-essentials.

[Slow5oh]

Or audit where the money is going, seems like they spend a lot of money on non-essentials.

Cleaning out foreclosed homes I know this. I worked in the hood for year and half dealing with foreclosed properties those houses were loaded with all kinds of things not needed.

[BR3W CITY]

how are they communicating FB a site or just via cell phones

BOOST mobile! Where you at dog?!

[Exitspeed]

We are heading down there on Sunday. I'll be damned if Im gonna let some little fucks ruin what I enjoy doing

I'm with you. This isn't going to stop me from taking my kid, and wife down there next weekend and enjoying the fair. The 18 and under having to have an adult with with certainly make it a lot safer.

[Turbo-Triumph]

Wtf this is some bullshit! So what... I have to buy a gun and training for me and my girlfriend to just feel safe in my own neighborhood? Then I need to worry about if Ishoot a mother fucker if I'm going to go to prison because he decided he wants to go and do some dumb shit? What the hell! What we are all forgetting is everyone is allowed to ccw! So there's a pack of 5 running at me obviously meaning serious bodily harm, I draw and shoot, what do you think the other 4 will do? Draw and shoo in "self defense" and THEY will have every "right" too! I feel some baaaaad problems coming up when obama is ousted. It'll be the straw that broke the camels back.

Fuck. I don't know about everyone else but I'm buying a pistol with a big clip for me and my girlfriend, getting ccw training and just packin heat as of nov 1st.

I suspect january/febuary to be very... VERY bad times! This is frightening and I don't give a fuck iim not ashamed to admit it. My life shouldn't be in jeoprady because of anyone else but me.

[Taetsch Z-24]

i love how every one is just sitting here woulda-coulda-shoulda'ing this. Everyone in this thread = this guy...

But your in this thread...
Also, you are assuming I have never been in this situation before.

Mistake.

Moving ON,
http://website.lineone.net/~braithwaitej/mainsite/overview/guns/mauser.jpg

To my knologe pistol "Clips" don't really come in that many sizes, as it depends on the Magazine size.

[Slow5oh]

Fuck. I don't know about everyone else but I'm buying a pistol with a big clip for me and my girlfriend, getting ccw training and just packin heat as of nov 1st.

I suspect january/febuary to be very... VERY bad times! This is frightening and I don't give a fuck iim not ashamed to admit it. My life shouldn't be in jeoprady because of anyone else but me.
Clip:
http://www.mapartsinc.com/products/62211114146_StripperClip.jpg


magazine:
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/pcprosystems/LWRC/PMAG_Wonderland_Smaller.jpg

[DynoTom]

Yes, I was right in the middle of this thing....I did not know at the time that they were targeting white people but, I figured they were up to no good from all the things I could see....I did start going into " protection mode " once they were getting closer to me. I carry a Kimber pepper blaster ( BY FAR THE BEST PEPPER SPRAY DEVICE ) and I had it in my hand ready to spray and the other hand was holding my dog back ... I'm pretty sure my dog kept them away from me I hate to think if I was alone that night ....It's a fucking shame you can't even walk around the block anymore without thugs acting like freaking idiots ! I did what I had to do that night to become a target they wanted no part of and I'm glad for that.....It goes to show you that you never know when shit is going to go down and always have a protection plan in place just in case....

[Yooformula]

After reading the witness accounts of what happened, I dont blame the few cops one bit for waiting for back-up. Many said it was less than 2 minutes for 15 cars to show up! That is a respectable amount but against hundreds in a mob, there wouldnt be much even they could have done. IMO, when war veterans say that it reminded them of combat, it must have been serious! No cop gets paid enough to get in the middle of a few hundred angry stupid people that just want to inflict pain.

[DynoTom]

After reading the witness accounts of what happened, I dont blame the few cops one bit for waiting for back-up. Many said it was less than 2 minutes for 15 cars to show up! That is a respectable amount but against hundreds in a mob, there wouldnt be much even they could have done. IMO, when war veterans say that it reminded them of combat, it must have been serious! No cop gets paid enough to get in the middle of a few hundred angry stupid people that just want to inflict pain.


The group I seen was about 30 thugs or so and it was only one cop at first....It was probably only a few minutes before a whole parade of cops came though....There was multiple locations were the trouble ended up ...I was at the one down 84th st. one block south of greenfield ave...If you watch any of the video from that night that was the one I was at....Even when there was a whole ton of cops there the thugs were very hard to get under control . I stuck around a while to see WTF was going on and you would not believe how these thugs were acting around the cops. Total lack of respect for the law ....

[Taetsch Z-24]

In a case like that, I say shoot them.

its wrong, public out cry and all, but really, shoot them, to kill.
Draw a hard line that this shit will not be tolerated.

Respect is earned, in some cases (around the world) respect must come by means of muzzle flash.

[TheRX7Project]

What we are all forgetting is everyone is allowed to ccw! So there's a pack of 5 running at me obviously meaning serious bodily harm, I draw and shoot, what do you think the other 4 will do? Draw and shoo in "self defense" and THEY will have every "right" too!

False. Not everyone will be able to CCW. First of all you have to be able to own a gun legally. Shooting someone in self defense is OK, shooting someone because you're attacking them is not. They won't have the "right" to shoot you, and if you're gonna pull it you might as well drop all 5 of them.

Regardless, the Sigma holds 14 in the mag and one in the hole, thats 5 people with two to the chest and one to the head before I need my other mag.

ETA: You have to be 21 to buy handgun ammo.

[Exitspeed]

Went last night with my 16 month old son and my 8 month pregnant wife. If was really nice. We went down to the midway just to see if there was a difference and there sure was.

Mmmmm Major Goolsby wings.

[noeggs4u]

Glad to see you all got home safe. Lol

[Taetsch Z-24]

Yes, yesterday no hitch (save the Clydesdale's, I want one some day).
Had one Chicago dog, makes me want to go to Sammie's now...


Regardless, the Sigma holds 14 in the mag and one in the hole, thats 5 people with two to the chest and one to the head before I need my other mag.
Enter the USP .45 12+1 rounds, 13 kills.:thumbsup

[Nickerz]

Well we were not attacked by a mob of people at the state fair last night. On a side note the state fair is a HUGE waste of money. Holy shit by the time we left we spent about $50 a piece. $30 to get in!

Seriously $10 to park? And $9 a person? Fuck that, this isn't summerfest, its the state fair. On the plus side I had a creme puff for breakfast :drool:

[PB86MCSS]

I never met a person who actually paid to park for State Fair :D. Easy for me to say as I can walk or usually bike from here. It's not that hard to find an open street spot, usually. Unless you don't want to walk 5-6 blocks at most. Tickets can be had for $5 or so if you plan in advance as well. Fill up on .25 milk and you can have a really cheap time there :goof .

Myself and the lady will be going today and once more later in the week. We always look forward to it even though it's the same stuff each year and kind of corny. I'm not worried about any mobs or punk wannabes, chances of this happening again at State Fair are pretty minimal especially this year. Midway was always dirty especially at night anyway. Not sure what I would of done if caught in it, most people don't change their mindsets that easily or quickly from relaxed/fun to fighting/survival mode, shock or surprise sets in first and takes awhile to process. Hopefully some of the f-ckers got their asses kicked though.

[Nickerz]

I never met a person who actually paid to park for State Fair :D. Easy for me to say as I can walk or usually bike from here. It's not that hard to find an open street spot, usually. Unless you don't want to walk 5-6 blocks at most. Tickets can be had for $5 or so if you plan in advance as well. Fill up on .25 milk and you can have a really cheap time there :goof .

Myself and the lady will be going today and once more later in the week. We always look forward to it even though it's the same stuff each year and kind of corny. I'm not worried about any mobs or punk wannabes, chances of this happening again at State Fair are pretty minimal especially this year. Midway was always dirty especially at night anyway. Not sure what I would of done if caught in it, most people don't change their mindsets that easily or quickly from relaxed/fun to fighting/survival mode, shock or surprise sets in first and takes awhile to process. Hopefully some of the f-ckers got their asses kicked though.

It used to be $5 from what I remember. Either way, way too expensive to have to plan and fuck around for. Summerfest is pushing it with their pricing, but there is a ton of music and activities to justify it. State fair... cmon now. We're going to pay $30 to walk into the state fair? Not gonna happen.

I'll buy a deep fryer, order some creme puffs online, have someone shit on my driveway and turn on a country radio station next year.

[badass88gt]

In a case like that, I say shoot them.

its wrong, public out cry and all, but really, shoot them, to kill.
Draw a hard line that this shit will not be tolerated.

Respect is earned, in some cases (around the world) respect must come by means of muzzle flash.

Agreed. People who act like rabid animals should be treated as such. Don't want to get shot? Act like a responsible part of the human race.

We need a return to the Wild West days.

[pOrk]

I was a bit disappointed in the fair myself, cost me and my lady 18 bucks to enter the gates and another 2 bucks to get sick off flavored milk like we do every year ( HAH! ). I fooled the guesser last year but this year he had me pinned, literally RIGHT on the money at 207 lbs. Worth 5 bucks. Then we paid 8 bucks for 2 potatoes, LOL its the fair so what the hell. Had a ball looking at the animals and almost stepping in horse shit but couldn't believe how clean they were keeping the barns. Once we got into the Expo center to check out all the seen on tv garbage I almost got sick seeing the same booths over and over and over. Donovan and Jorgenson, seriously need 3 fucking booths? Gee, I bet they don't over charge on their HVAC services at ALL if they can afford THREE vendor booths. I bet there were 20 different vendors booths for those stupid ass " green " buggy bags that looks like a golf bag cart with a bag for crap instead of clubs. Hot tubs, I'm not going to the fair to buy a hot tub. Is anyone else? I didn't need to see 4 different vendors selling those either, I mean seriously doesn't China make enough CRAP products to be able to have MANY different " Billy Mayes " characters trying to ram DIFFERENT products down our throats?

Expo center is BOGUS. Rest of the fair was good stuff, minus all the terrible wanna-be cover bands playing all over the place. Didn't see many street performers this year either, usually get to see atleast 5-6 acts and we only ran across one with a bunch of little dogs ( was lame ).

[Sprayaway Fox]

I gaurantee if the news would call this a hate crime against white people none of this shit would happen anymore.

I think it would make them think that WI aint fucking around anymore on the topic. Othewise bust some shots off in the air for the warning and whatever zombies dont scatter get the double tap.

[That_Guy]

I gaurantee if the news would call this a hate crime against white people none of this shit would happen anymore.

I think it would make them think that WI aint fucking around anymore on the topic. Othewise bust some shots off in the air for the warning and whatever zombies dont scatter get the double tap.

correction.. you shout " I FEEL MY LIFE IS IN DANGER! LEAVE ME ALONE! I DON'T WANT TO SHOOT" then you unleash

[TheRX7Project]

^^ "They're coming right for us!"

[TheRX7Project]

Enter the USP .45 12+1 rounds, 13 kills.:thumbsup

Sigma is a .40, and it LOVES Winchester "Ranger" hollowpoints.

[Taetsch Z-24]

SEALS/Recon carry .45 for a reason...

Though right when I was getting out, we where converting all our MP5's to the .40 cal one. They cycle so fast...fun gun.

But yes, In this case ANYTHING would have been better then what they had.

[Irish]

SEALS carry .45 for a reason...

The carry what they want/need.

[Irish]

*They

[Taetsch Z-24]

Correct.
and In my experience it is a USP's\MK23 (.45).

[Nickerz]

There are a lot of people in this thread that are going to understand the legal definition of "immediate danger of death or grievously bodily harm" when they end up in court and go to jail for a long time. Not that I agree with the law on this stuff, but a lot of you guys are totally clueless blowhards and if you ever actually unload a bullet or two you're going to have to sell your house to pay the legal fees. That's IF you don't end up going to prison for a long time and don't get the bejesus sued out of you civilly.

Seriously, this isn't Texas. They were still writing tickets to people less than a year ago for LEGALLY carrying a weapon. You think you're going to unload on someone and not be made a point of? pshhh :rolleyes:

[Irish]

Correct.
and In my experience it is a USP's\MK23 (.45).

Depends on the operator Gunny.

[Taetsch Z-24]

There are a lot of people in this thread that are going to understand the legal definition of "immediate danger of death or grievously bodily harm" when they end up in court and go to jail for a long time. Not that I agree with the law on this stuff, but a lot of you guys are totally clueless blowhards and if you ever actually unload a bullet or two you're going to have to sell your house to pay the legal fees. That's IF you don't end up going to prison for a long time and don't get the bejesus sued out of you civilly.

Seriously, this isn't Texas. They were still writing tickets to people less than a year ago for LEGALLY carrying a weapon. You think you're going to unload on someone and not be made a point of? pshhh :rolleyes:

"I feared for my life" Is usually a end all with use of force. In a case like this, it would have been justifiable manslaughter.

[That_Guy]

correction.. you shout " I FEEL MY LIFE IS IN DANGER! LEAVE ME ALONE! I DON'T WANT TO SHOOT" then you unleash


There are a lot of people in this thread that are going to understand the legal definition of "immediate danger of death or grievously bodily harm" when they end up in court and go to jail for a long time. Not that I agree with the law on this stuff, but a lot of you guys are totally clueless blowhards and if you ever actually unload a bullet or two you're going to have to sell your house to pay the legal fees. That's IF you don't end up going to prison for a long time and don't get the bejesus sued out of you civilly.

Seriously, this isn't Texas. They were still writing tickets to people less than a year ago for LEGALLY carrying a weapon. You think you're going to unload on someone and not be made a point of? pshhh :rolleyes:

IF you can prove your life is in danger, you have all the right in the world to open up. By that you have exhausted all means of escape. In this case its 1 against lets say 8-9 and they are kicking and stopping on you for no other reason other then to "HARM or INFLICT INJURY" let alone lets say your wife or child" I would have no problem defending my person or a loved one. I could easly sit on the stand and sob about how terrible it was that I was forced to defend myself because I felt that they where going to kill me. How I didn't want to shoot them and told them I didn't want to giving them the option to cease and restrain them selves. Talk about how the last thing i wanted to do was shoot a person and that all i wanted to do that night was go to the fair with my family.

[88Nightmare]

Dead guys don't tell their side of the story...

[Nickerz]

Most of the scenarios described here would likely result in 2nd degree homicide charges. That includes firing into an angry mob, which would violate clauses related to injuring third parties. Since it would be impossible to prove that anyone besides people directly attacking you were causing you any imminent danger.
http://www.wisbar.org/res/sup/2002/00-0064.htm

Probably would have been convicted had the state not lost the voicemails. Probably 20-30K in legal fees.
http://www.wisbar.org/res/capp/2010/2009ap001684.htm

This is just hilarious. What a nutjob. Not really relevant, just came up in search for deadly force.
http://www.wisbar.org/res/capp/2010/2009ap001684.htm

substantial battery conviction
http://www.wisbar.org/res/capp/z1998/98-1813.htm

This one is a good example because it points out the fact that he could have ran, but did not, And that since they were 10-12 feet away, was not an immediate and immanent threat. second-degree reckless injury with a dangerous weapon
http://www.wisbar.org/res/capp/z1998/98-1739.htm

mob attack claim - first degree murder charge
http://www.wisbar.org/res/capp/z1997/97-0213.htm

Even if you're not actually charged, the legal fees add up pretty quick. Not to mention your name will be in the paper, people will be scrutinizing you and you may be blackballed from finding any reasonable employment since you are viewed as a loose cannon and trigger happy, literally.

Even in the mob attack scenario its much more likely you would be charged with either 1st or 2nd degree murder than actually be "defending yourself." If you think this state actually cares about your rights to defend yourself, why do you think your constitutional right to carry a weapon was sidestepped for so long? Why do you think it took so long to even have any semblance of the castle doctrine to defend yourself in your home?

Listen, I get it, you want to feel like you have the right to defend yourself. Who doesn't. No one is arguing that. The only thing I'm saying is that most of the scenarios described here would result in either substantial legal fees, or a prison sentence.

And if you don't think that's how it would really go down, draw your weapon and fire at the first chance you have. I'll be anxiously awaiting your case to drop onto wcca while you run around telling everyone you know you acted in self defense. No one will care and you'll either be broke or incarcerated.

Most of the people on here give gun owners a bad name. Owning a gun is a constitutionally protected right that should be exercised with extreme caution, and not even TALKED about in the manner most of you are. Because that right WILL be taken away some day, and the leverage they will use are morons that pull their gun at any chance they can. You pull your gun when you know in the depth of your soul if you don't use your weapon, you or someone close to you will die. Any other use is not only a stupid move for you, but for every gun owner.

Long story short, stop making gun owners look like trigger happy redneck morons.

[TheRX7Project]

If I'm watching some kid in the street get beaten unconcious, I'd draw my weapon. They could've easily beaten him to death.

If a group of people is trying to pull me out of my car, I'm going to pull my weapon. Fairly soon we will have castle doctrine in WI, and this whole argument will be moot.

[Crawlin]

saw this posted on a buddy's FB page

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/aug/8/mayor-talks-tough-to-black-teens-after-flash-mobs/

Nickerz has a point. It will only take once to find out how things are gonna be in this state after it is put into effect. In a case like this, maybe the city needs to put out some warnings. You know, since they won't actually DO anything about it until after the fact, maybe they should put out a PSA about how us innocent, law abiding citizens should act while having our liberties and freedom violated by a group of subhuman trash

[BR3W CITY]

If I was directly in harms way or already injured in a mob; and found out that someone refused to step in because of "fear of prosecution"....that person needs the first bullet as soon as I'm out of the hospital. I'm tired as fuck of the laws being written to protect the criminals.

I need to stop typing before this just turns to hatespeech.

[Neal Steffek]

Fact, if someone is with in 21 feet of you with a knife, by law you can shoot them dead as they are considered close enough to kill you.

[Nickerz]

Fact, if someone is with in 21 feet of you with a knife, by law you can shoot them dead as they are considered close enough to kill you.

Please reference state law when making wild claims you heard from your uncle fester.

Let me help you, http://nxt.legis.state.wi.us/nxt/gateway.dll/Prior%20Sessions/2003/stats03/15447/15468?f=templates$fn=document-frame.htm$3.0$q=[field%20folio-destination-name%3A%27939.48%27]$uq=$x=Advanced$up=1#LPHit1

Also the "21 foot rule" is a self referencing rule of thumb POLICE use when wondering if they should use deadly force. Also known as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

If you find any state law referencing what you're talking about I'll send you $20 in the mail. You won't, because actually self defense ends at 10-12 feet depending on your jury, prosecution and facts of the crime. Outside that range, in Wisconsin, your arguments aren't given any weight to the jury. In one of the cases above, they reference this rule, stating that he was no longer in immanent danger, and therefor was not defending himself.

This is exactly why people need to know what they're getting into when they draw a weapon. Do you know how ridiculous it would sound if in your trial you said

"I shot him because he had a knife, and I know in Wisconsin there is a 21 foot rule."

After the prosecution spent about 30 seconds obliterating that, and you could spend the next week or two in trial basically waiting to see what you get charged with, and how long you'll be in jail.

We got a LONG way to get 2nd amendment rights in Wisconsin, up to par. But in the mean time, don't be an idiot about it. This state is anti-gun, don't forget that!

[-stew-]

Fact: bears, beats, battlestar galactica.

[Slow5oh]

what pisses me off, is some dumb cunt called in on the radio and said they organized it on facebook and it was for entertainment.

[Nickerz]

what pisses me off, is some dumb cunt called in on the radio and said they organized it on facebook and it was for entertainment.

The real entertainment comes when the ones they got, rat out the rest and they are made a point of on the news and in the court room. I bet you 5-10 years. I also bet they'll go down to at least 15 to charge as adults.

BUH BYE! :banana1:

[austena123]

^^Lets hope so.

[Slow5oh]

The real entertainment comes when the ones they got, rat out the rest and they are made a point of on the news and in the court room. I bet you 5-10 years. I also bet they'll go down to at least 15 to charge as adults.

BUH BYE! :banana1:

one would think/hope so but I have a feeling these wastes will get a slap on the wrist.

[Nickerz]

one would think/hope so but I have a feeling these wastes will get a slap on the wrist.

When even black leaders are abhorring your behavior, I don't think they're going to get off easy this time. Especially not with quotes like "Oh, White Girl Bleeds a Lot!"

[animal]

Anyone see this timeline? I swear there are coordinated military raids that seem less planned/orchestrated than this:

http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/127293708.html

To have that many attacks going on that far apart at the SAME time? That is unbelievable. Its like they planned to pan out in all directions from the fairgrounds. There is no way this "spilled over" into the parking lot and petit area, then simultaneously over by 84-87th/greenfield, and ALSO on 76th in 2 places, north and south? No way. Hit all 4 corners of the fair to put anyone leaving the fair in range of the mob. Really makes you wonder if there was like a lieutenant for each of the 4 corners calling the shots or something. Very odd to think this just chaotically ended up this way. :mad:

[Waver]

I am sorry, but I am going to protect my family and my property by any means necessary. If that means splattering one of these lowlifes all over the pavement than so be it.

[animal]

I am sorry, but I am going to protect my family and my property by any means necessary. If that means splattering one of these lowlifes all over the pavement than so be it.

Its all good, just have your defense attorney strike nickerz off your jury and you'll be all set. :goof

[Neal Steffek]

Please reference state law when making wild claims you heard from your uncle fester.

Let me help you, http://nxt.legis.state.wi.us/nxt/gateway.dll/Prior%20Sessions/2003/stats03/15447/15468?f=templates$fn=document-frame.htm$3.0$q=[field%20folio-destination-name%3A%27939.48%27]$uq=$x=Advanced$up=1#LPHit1

Also the "21 foot rule" is a self referencing rule of thumb POLICE use when wondering if they should use deadly force. Also known as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

If you find any state law referencing what you're talking about I'll send you $20 in the mail. You won't, because actually self defense ends at 10-12 feet depending on your jury, prosecution and facts of the crime. Outside that range, in Wisconsin, your arguments aren't given any weight to the jury. In one of the cases above, they reference this rule, stating that he was no longer in immanent danger, and therefor was not defending himself.

This is exactly why people need to know what they're getting into when they draw a weapon. Do you know how ridiculous it would sound if in your trial you said

"I shot him because he had a knife, and I know in Wisconsin there is a 21 foot rule."

After the prosecution spent about 30 seconds obliterating that, and you could spend the next week or two in trial basically waiting to see what you get charged with, and how long you'll be in jail.

We got a LONG way to get 2nd amendment rights in Wisconsin, up to par. But in the mean time, don't be an idiot about it. This state is anti-gun, don't forget that!

Funny how so many police officers get off with the 21 foot rule when their shootings are deemed justified. Just saying.

[Rocket Power]

Also the "21 foot rule" is a self referencing rule of thumb POLICE use when wondering if they should use deadly force. Also known as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

If you find any state law referencing what you're talking about I'll send you $20 in the mail. You won't, because actually self defense ends at 10-12 feet depending on your jury, prosecution and facts of the crime. Outside that range, in Wisconsin, your arguments aren't given any weight to the jury. In one of the cases above, they reference this rule, stating that he was no longer in immanent danger, and therefor was not defending himself.

The Tueller drill is used to show that at 21 feet a person with a weapon ie. knife, is an imminent threat because they can cover the 21 feet and start injuring you in the time it will take you to draw your weapon. Self defense does not end at 10-12 feet. Where the hell did you get that? Did you read 939.48 that you quoted?


939.48(1)
(1) A person is privileged to threaten or intentionally use force against another for the purpose of preventing or terminating what the person reasonably believes to be an unlawful interference with his or her person by such other person. The actor may intentionally use only such force or threat thereof as the actor reasonably believes is necessary to prevent or terminate the interference. The actor may not intentionally use force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm unless the actor reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself.


939.48 (4)
(4) A person is privileged to defend a 3rd person from real or apparent unlawful interference by another under the same conditions and by the same means as those under and by which the person is privileged to defend himself or herself from real or apparent unlawful interference, provided that the person reasonably believes that the facts are such that the 3rd person would be privileged to act in self-defense and that the person's intervention is necessary for the protection of the 3rd person.

In case you need the definition of great bodily harm


939.22(14)
(14) "Great bodily harm" means bodily injury which creates a substantial risk of death, or which causes serious permanent disfigurement, or which causes a permanent or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ or other serious bodily injury.

[pOrk]

Nickerz, if your being pulled from your vehicles window by several people you aren't going to defend yourself? If someone you do OR do not know is getting the FUCK beat out of them by several teenagers in the street, you aren't going to pull your weapon? Just say yes so I know I'm glad I'm not one of your buddies, cause thats just fucked up.

[Nickerz]

The Tueller drill is used to show that at 21 feet a person with a weapon ie. knife, is an imminent threat because they can cover the 21 feet and start injuring you in the time it will take you to draw your weapon. Self defense does not end at 10-12 feet. Where the hell did you get that? Did you read 939.48 that you quoted?





In case you need the definition of great bodily harm

Actually I linked to a case that in its description partially negated a self defense claim because the person was more than 10-12 feet away. That's why I linked it.

For those of you saying that POLICE OFFICERS are acquitted because of that rule, that is exactly what I stated in my reply. Its a measure often used for police officers for internal investigation purposes. We don't get to play by the same rules. For instance, what would you get charged with shooting a police dog? Same as murdering a police officer. Shoot your neighbors dog and see what happens. You're not going to be charged with murder.

And everyone that is trying to paint me as an anti gun person is either a moron or butthurt. I'm all for the right to carry, and the right to defend yourself. I'm just pointing out there are a lot of people that would end up in jail or with large legal fees. Do you just want to ignore the reality of it or what? I never said I think you should or shouldn't be able to do anything, I'm just telling you its going to be more trouble than you think any time you use a weapon for anything other than shooting targets or cans in your back yard.

So basically you're missing the point. Draw your weapon as a matter of last resort, unless you like getting yourself into a whole bunch of shit. Just you wait, subscribe to this thread. Guarantee you one of the first people to use their CCW in a public setting like the state fair mob attack gets charged. What gave you the idea this state views the world like Texas? I happen to agree with the Texas point of view for the most part.

I'm not saying its right, just look at the facts. Read these cases. Look at the way people are painted in the court room. Just read them. When you start reading them you realize the definition of "self defense" is not as cut and dry as you think. Its open to pretty strict interpretation based on a couple factors. Even having a blood alcohol content of non-zero can take away your self defense rights. If you came out of the state fair drunk and got attacked by a mob, your credibly would be jeopardized and that would be focused on in your trial, at $100-250 AN HOUR.

So yeah, I guess a lot of people don't understand the due diligence of owning a handgun which is a huge responsibility, and the fact that some of these same people might be gun owners is pretty scary and sad. I only checked into this stuff because I'm going to be CCW as soon as the smoke clears and I plan on being a responsible gun owner, not a redneck moron who likes to brag how many people they can shoot the instant they see any kind of perceived threat.

Owning a gun and claiming you're going to use it at the first chance you get doesn't make anyone impressed with who you are. Lots of dickwaving here. Pretty sad.

[Al]

What I find disturbing is how many forum members are already cocked and locked. People hear about a situation and immediately go into defense mode.

Talk like this is what makes the political Left vote against all CCW legislation. If any of you truly value CCW and the Second Amendment for what they truly stand for, you will cease this talk immediately. Is this talk the source of the "Wild West" shootout ideas that CCW opponents are always warning us about?

What can I say?
"Thanks for giving CCW a bad rep"?
maybe:
"You proved them correct"?
I can tell you now that what you are saying is not doing anything to support CCW.

An ounce of decency and self awareness would go a long way for some of you.

Personally, I intent to take the proper training classes and obtain a permit. But no point in time will I so blatantly talk about shooting people. This is wrong.

[Nickerz]

What I find disturbing is how many forum members are already cocked and locked. People hear about a situation and immediately go into defense mode.

Talk like this is what makes the political Left vote against all CCW legislation. If any of you truly value CCW and the Second Amendment for what they truly stand for, you will cease this talk immediately. Is this talk the source of the "Wild West" shootout ideas that CCW opponents are always warning us about?

What can I say?
"Thanks for giving CCW a bad rep"?
maybe:
"You proved them correct"?
I can tell you now that what you are saying is not doing anything to support CCW.

An ounce of decency and self awareness would go a long way for some of you.

Personally, I intent to take the proper training classes and obtain a permit. But no point in time will I so blatantly talk about shooting people. This is wrong.

:thumbsup much more concise than what I could have said!

[TheRX7Project]

This thread has turned into a lot of pussyholing. Either you're prepared to defend your life, your property, and other's lives, or you're not. If you're not, just put the gun back in the safe, noone will think any less of you. I personally would rather defend myself and go to prison than be a victim and possibly die or watch someone I love be a victim or die.

"Do something. It may be wrong, but at least you did something."

[pOrk]

Instead of pussy footing around what I said, how about a direct reply? Would you take the chance of being dead because you are afraid of drawing your weapon?

[Crawlin]

What I find disturbing is how many forum members are already cocked and locked. People hear about a situation and immediately go into defense mode.

Talk like this is what makes the political Left vote against all CCW legislation. If any of you truly value CCW and the Second Amendment for what they truly stand for, you will cease this talk immediately. Is this talk the source of the "Wild West" shootout ideas that CCW opponents are always warning us about?

What can I say?
"Thanks for giving CCW a bad rep"?
maybe:
"You proved them correct"?
I can tell you now that what you are saying is not doing anything to support CCW.

An ounce of decency and self awareness would go a long way for some of you.

Personally, I intent to take the proper training classes and obtain a permit. But no point in time will I so blatantly talk about shooting people. This is wrong.

Just to go off the absurd end of the spectrum, at what point is it going to be enough? When one of these pieces of trash finally puts someone in a coma(god forbid anyone in YOUR family) will they get any sort of punishment? Nope, because no one is doing shit about it. This will become a larger problem before it gets better.

So the "dick waving" you are talking about in here, is all about how people are going to respond when being intimately engaged in the situation. I don't see anyone saying they are going to go running to state fair from their home just to lay some fuckers out. I see a bunch of people that are truly aware of the surroundings and are going to protect yourself.

Since you said you WILL go take a class, lets go over a couple things you will learn. First, just DRAWING your weapon can result in about $10,000 in legal fees by the time you are said and done(this was described in class). If you actually pull the trigger I believe he had said it can be upwards of $100k.

So think about this as you are a "responsible CCW permit holder". Even in an "ideal, not going to jail" situation, do YOU have the $10,000 for the legal bills just for pulling it out and aprehending the person that may be causing you or a 3rd party great bodily harm? If you don't, leave the gun at home.

I say that only because when you pull it, and you can't afford a real attorney thats gonna understand the situation, you are gonna get charged, permit or not, and then YOU will be the one making the pro-gun people look bad.

[Crawlin]

And maybe if the fucking democrats would actually stand up and protect the innocent law abiding people instead of worrying about if they will win their next election since their whole region is democrats, we wouldn't have to have conversations like this We wouldn't have to worry about carrying a self defense firearm. We could walk the streets without these wastes of human trash messing with others.

"Not a hate crime" my fucking ass.

[michelle]

Went to the Fair today from 9:00-12:00ish. Saw plenty of security around.

[Nickerz]

Instead of pussy footing around what I said, how about a direct reply? Would you take the chance of being dead because you are afraid of drawing your weapon?

Actually funny you mention being pulled out of a vehicle. I had someone try to do that to me when I had my ranger. They reached in turned my keys off and grabbed me. Luckily I got my keys back in stomped on the gas to got the fuck out of there. If I had a weapon, it would have not been my first thought.

Again, its a use of last resort. If I tore off and the guy was in my truck bed, sure, I would use it. But an attempt to retreat is always going to be easier in the long run than having to hire some heavy hitter lawyer when their scumbag family tries to sue you for a wrongful death conviction.

I know this thread is full of people just trying to feel like they have the right to unload whenever they feel threatened at all, but it just doesn't work that way. Would I like Texas law here? Definitely. But that's not the case, and everyone is missing the point time and time again.

NO ONE CARES WHAT YOU THINK OR FEEL. Al & I are pointing out REALITY. You can ignore that all you want. The number of scenarios which you can legally fire a weapon are pretty slim.

Honestly, this concept isn't difficult to understand. And if you can't understand that I don't even think you're smart enough to own a gun.

[TheRX7Project]

I completely get the concept, I get it that the law might not be on my side. I accept the consequences for my actions.

I would rather face prison than death, I would rather face prison than live my life with the thought that I refused to act and save someone's life because I was too afraid to accept the consequences of doing the right thing.

[Nickerz]

I completely get the concept, I get it that the law might not be on my side. I accept the consequences for my actions.

I would rather face prison than death, I would rather face prison than live my life with the thought that I refused to act and save someone's life because I was too afraid to accept the consequences of doing the right thing.

That is perfectly understandable. :)

[Al]

I strongly support laws which favor CCW. Also, I am not implying that anyone should remain passive while a group of dilinquent youths mob you.

Once I take the training class and obtain a permit, I am certain that there will be times when I carry. I am well aware of the possibility that I would have to use my concealed weapon for its intended purpose. There is a time and a place for lethal force. In the event that lethal force is the only option, I hope that I will have used absolute best judgment to come to this conclusion.

That said, I will not talk with such disregard for human life.

I would almost question if some people here want to be in a situation which requires the use of such force. This is a serious accusation.

"with great power comes great responsibility"

[Taetsch Z-24]

Instead of pussy footing around what I said, how about a direct reply? Would you take the chance of being dead because you are afraid of drawing your weapon?
Exactly!
Like I said.

BETTER TO BE JUDGED BY TWELVE, THEN CARRIED BY SIX.

Moving on.

Use of Deadly Force, on a card I still carry in my wallet.

1. In self defense and defense of others
2. In defense of property involving national security.
3. In defense of property not involving national security but inherently dangerous to others.
4. To prevent or interrupt serious offenses against persons.
5. Apprehension or arrest.
6. Escapes.
7. Lawful Order.



I dare say that two of the six justifications to use deadly force where met.

Definitions on other side of said card.


Deadly Force: That force which a person uses with the purpose of causing death or serious bodily harm or which a reasonable and prudent person would consider likely to create a substantial risk of causing death or serious bodily harm. It will be used as a last resort when all lesser means have failed.
Circumstances for using deadly force: Deadly force is justified only under conditions of extreme necessity , as a last resort, when all lesser means have failed or cannot reasonably be employed, and only under one of the following circumstances:
Three pre-conditions of deadly force:
Opportunity: Authorization to be armed, and opportunity or situation arises where deadly force is authorized. the subject is present and has the opportunity to inflict serious bodily harm.
Means/Ability: The subject has the ability to inflict serious bodily harm or death to you or someone with some sort of weapon or skill
Intent: Persons must exhibit an overt action with a weapon or skill that you perceive as a threat or a deadly force situation.



We can debate the finer points of "serious bodily harm" but I have no doubt of my reaction.

I would have shot.

[TheRX7Project]

And what does this mob have to do with HUMAN life? If I'm attacked by a pack of dogs, cats, or feral rats, I would shoot them... act like animals get treated like animals.

[Nickerz]

Hmm... trying to remember another group of people that like to talk about pulling guns frequently and think they're bad-asses because of that. Oh yeah its the same people we're worried about.

http://niviusvir.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/gun-thug.jpg?w=233&h=350

DUN BE GETIN UP IN MAH FACE BRAH. U THREATEN ME YA GONNA GET BLASTAD!

Brew City Translation : Insert most of the comments here for comparison

:rolf

[pOrk]

Its funny you are telling us who you think isn't "smart" enough to own a gun and you can't even comprehend the difference between drawing and firing a weapon. I give up, maybe its best we agree to disagree. You worry about legal fees and watching someone die in the street cause your too afraid to be a man, I'll worry about me and mine.

[Crawlin]

First quote from the instructor......

"If you feel that at any point in time you will not be able to, or comfortably make the decision to defend yourself, please stay and enjoy the information, but DO NOT EVER conceal carry as you will just be putting yourself and others in danger"

Doesn't mean wild west, just means that you have the balls when it comes time to actually defend yourself you will

He didn't want people going through class to get the permit ONLY to say they have the permit and carry the gun. Then you were just a poser that like he said, you are putting others in danger.

[Crawlin]

So if I threaten bodily harm from 22ft away, am I safe? True question.

[Taetsch Z-24]

Depends, do you feel that your life is in danger, or others are?
If so, yes you are justified.

[Rocket Power]

1. In self defense and defense of others
2. In defense of property involving national security.
3. In defense of property not involving national security but inherently dangerous to others.
4. To prevent or interrupt serious offenses against persons.
5. Apprehension or arrest.
6. Escapes.
7. Lawful Order.

As a civilian in WI 2,3,5,6,7, and possibly 4 don't apply. Remember, You can not use deadly force in the defense of property.

[Nickerz]

Depends, do you feel that your life is in danger, or others are?
If so, yes you are justified.

You mean like when someone says they are going to kill you, they pick you up, throw you against a wall and say you are going to die? Then you pull your weapon, shoot and get charged with 2nd degree intentional homicide and sentenced to 30 years?

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/wi-supreme-court/1106829.html

Its not that simple.

If your life is in danger, AND you fall strictly within the guidelines of what constitutes self defense, WHICH IS NOT BROAD, then it is justified.

[Nickerz]

And BTW directing anger at someone acting within their own self interest doesn't really make any sense. Direct your anger at your lawmakers and the people who vote for those laws. I would vote for any "stand your ground" or "castle doctrine" law, but the majority wouldn't. And its mostly because of trigger happy morons. People want to defend themselves, but when they think of CCW and open carry laws they think about people like many of the forum members on here that have little to no restraint and talk like big shots. They don't like the idea of that mentality being prevalent in public and having to worry about thinking about random nutjobs IN ADDITION to your every day criminal.

There is a reason that you are more likely to die from your own gun than from someone else. Its because people in general are emotional, trigger happy creatures. In a perfect world, no one would have guns. And I prefer a population able to arm themselves. But telling people factually incorrect things like you can defend your car against being stolen, saying you can shoot whenever you feel threatened, or saying that its unlikely you would end up in court is just reckless.

Saying you don't agree with the view and you would defend yourself or others regardless is an amicable position, but not one that works in your self interest IMO. 9 times out of 10, fleeing the scene is possible and your best option. If you want to get into gun battles, sell drugs on the street in any major city. If you want to defend yourself, learn some self defense and be aware of your surroundings and ways to escape a dangerous situation.

As to pork claiming to "be a man" because of his willingness to engage in reckless violence, not sure what would make you think that makes you a man. That makes you immature in most people's books. Most people start out agreeing with the dirty harry mentality, but then they grow up and realize being "a man" means "being a responsible adult." I would put a guy who takes care of his kids, pays his bills and has his shit in order a hundred pegs higher on the "man ranking" than some trigger happy moron.

How big of a man are you when you're in prison and your kids have to come visit you, instead of being raised by a real man that can analyze a situation and figure out a remedy that doesn't end up in jail time? If you HAVE to use your weapon, no one is going to argue against that. But the number of scenarios which you absolutely having to pull a weapon and use it are so minute that there are only a handful of cases in the state every year.

[TheRX7Project]

There are ~3 million cases of Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs) reported every year (nationwide). That's about 1% of the population drawing their guns. Just FYI.

In 92% of those cases, no shots were fired.

[Lash]

There are ~3 million cases of Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs) reported every year (nationwide). That's about 1% of the population drawing their guns. Just FYI.

In 92% of those cases, no shots were fired.

Where did you get those numbers?
Is that just civilians, or police officers (on and off duty) included?

[Taetsch Z-24]

As a civilian in WI 2,3,5,6,7, and possibly 4 don't apply. Remember, You can not use deadly force in the defense of property.

Correct, just reading off the card.

One and Four apply to off duty officers, and retired officers.
I fall with in that realm.

Nick once again, pay attention this time;

BETTER TO BE JUDGED BY TWELVE THEN CARRIED BY SIX.

What about the delivery driver in Milwaukee that carries, shot people and only get charged with caring a uncased weapon in his car?

[Taetsch Z-24]

.



But the number of scenarios which you absolutely having to pull a weapon and use it are so minute that there are only a handful of cases in the state every year.

Could it be because its ILLEGAL TO CARRY RIGHT NOW?!

[Rocket Power]

You mean like when someone says they are going to kill you, they pick you up, throw you against a wall and say you are going to die? Then you pull your weapon, shoot and get charged with 2nd degree intentional homicide and sentenced to 30 years?

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/wi-supreme-court/1106829.html

Its not that simple.

If your life is in danger, AND you fall strictly within the guidelines of what constitutes self defense, WHICH IS NOT BROAD, then it is justified.

You really should re-read that case you posted,I wouldn't call it self defense either.

He pulls a gun out and points it at him AFTER the altercation is over, then admits he ACCIDENTALLY shoots him. He didn't shoot him as he was being attacked. He pulled the gun AFTER the guy was sitting on his bed, then accidentally shoots him when his tough guy gun pointing didn't work the way he planned and the guy he was pointing the gun at tried to get it away from him.


He asserted, however, that he was acting in self-defense when he initially pointed the gun and that the shooting was an accident, occurring as he and Malone struggled for the gun.


Malone returned to his bed and sat down.   Watkins now very angry, reached into his briefcase and pulled out his gun.6  Watkins testified that he took the gun out of its case, “slid it back, popped a round in the chamber, let him know that the gun was loaded, and I pointed it at him.” 7


What occurred after Watkins looked away led to Malone's death and Watkins' conviction for second-degree intentional homicide, and is greatly disputed.   According to Detective Antreassian's report, “Watkins stated that when [Malone] got a couple of feet away from Watkins, [Malone] grabbed for Watkins' gun arm and Watkins let his instincts go and every thing happened so fast, he just heard a boom and saw [Malone] go down.   Watkins stated that he did not intentionally shoot [Malone], it just went off by instincts.”

Watkins testified at trial that when he looked away to see if Dorr was coming:

I felt [Malone] grab my right hand, right wrist, and that I had the gun in.   My gun arm.   I turned back around real quick, something hit me in the face, I jump, I realize he's grabbed my arm, I jump for his arm, and I grabbed his wrist.

Once the two had grasped each other's arms:

There is a struggle for possession of the gun.   We were trying to keep it away from us.   I went to get in tight so I could have some control over it, he reaches and grabs it with his other arm or other hand, and we're swinging back and forth, and it goes off.

Watkins testified that he did not allow Malone to take the gun because he thought Malone would shoot him with it.   He described his action of grabbing Malone's wrist to keep control of the gun as “instinctive.”   Watkins testified that he did not intentionally pull the trigger but that his hand instinctively tightened up and the gun fired when Malone grabbed the gun and tried to wrestle it away.

[pOrk]

You keep saying trigger happy like you know what your talking about, I don't believe I said anything about pulling a trigger since I started wastting time arguing with you. So you are still saying if you saw someone getting the fuck beat out of them by several people that you would do nothing and simply retreat? That's not a man, that's a coward.

[-stew-]

You keep saying trigger happy like you know what your talking about, I don't believe I said anything about pulling a trigger since I started wastting time arguing with you. So you are still saying if you saw someone getting the fuck beat out of them by several people that you would do nothing and simply retreat? That's not a man, that's a coward.

So what if you and a few of your buddies see some guy trying to nab a little kid, or breaking into cars, or trying to steal your car, and you guys catch him and throw a beating into him and someone comes up and draws down on you guts and starts poppin rounds, its ok if he shots you or a friend because he's being manly?

[pOrk]

Lol, talk about stretching it thin. You and this guy should start a story telling club. Drawing a weapon and "poppin rounds" are not the same thing.

Edit for Stew: We are talking about the events that unfolded at statefair, not playinhg what if scenarios at the moment.

[Reverend Cooper]

Now that its racially motivated as admitted by a arrested party involved,will it make national news?
If it was a white mob on black persons I feel it would be,it doesn;t really seem to be making news at all unreal.

[nismodave]

I went to State Fair 3 times. My wife went 6 times.

Zero problems.

[Reverend Cooper]

Wont be able to CCW at the fair anyways they sell beer and Im sure it will be posted up due to that,and a gun in a case in the trunk wont help much either. But I would at least like the chance to get at it if i could.

[STANMAN]

Now that its racially motivated as admitted by a arrested party involved,will it make national news?
If it was a white mob on black persons I feel it would be,it doesn;t really seem to be making news at all unreal.

It will probably air on White Entertainment Television right after the White Ms. American pagent, where coincidentally the winner gets a huge grant from the United Caucasion College Fund, but only to an All White College where they teach whites about their slave ancestors and how to start demanding reparations.

[Reverend Cooper]

I went to State Fair 3 times. My wife went 6 times.

Zero problems.

Its cuz your huge and scarey

[Nix]

It will probably air on White Entertainment Television right after the White Ms. American pagent, where coincidentally the winner gets a huge grant from the United Caucasion College Fund, but only to an All White College where they teach whites about their slave ancestors and how to start demanding reparations.

Buwhahaha! This is so true. Me my brothers and buddies have had that discussion many times. Were is the United Caucasion Fund for me to go to college? You know damn well if there were to be a new tv channel launched and it was White Entertainment shit would hit the fan and that tv station would he called racist and bunrned to the ground. I could go on and on but people get my point.

[Taetsch Z-24]

it will probably air on white entertainment television right after the white ms. American pagent, where coincidentally the winner gets a huge grant from the united caucasion college fund, but only to an all white college where they teach whites about their slave ancestors and how to start demanding reparations.

win!

[TheRX7Project]

Where did you get those numbers?
Is that just civilians, or police officers (on and off duty) included?

I googled it a while back, I don't remember when I typed. But when I search for "defensive gun uses" it comes up 2.5 million per year per a 1993 statistic. I don't know for sure about the second part of your question but it appears to be civilians only.

http://www.texashandgunner.com/gunstuff/evilincarnate.htm
http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/kleck2.html

[Al]

Wont be able to CCW at the fair anyways they sell beer and Im sure it will be posted up due to that,and a gun in a case in the trunk wont help much either. But I would at least like the chance to get at it if i could.

Were they selling beer in the parking lot?

The real problem here is the time of vulnerability between exiting your car and entering the fair grounds (assuming that the fair grounds are safe).

[That_Guy]

From my understanding you can possess a firearm in a place of business that sells beer,wine,ect as long as you have the blood level of zero.

[-stew-]

No worries every one, they are renaming the event to significantly reduce the numbers of blacks attending the fair and thusly rioting.

http://www.classesandcareers.com/education/wp-content/uploads/job_fair1.jpg

[Al]

In B4 the Lock!

Anyway, I was talking with a few Milwaukeeans. Some people think that 2013 will be a year of riots in Milwaukee. This will be due primarily to Obama not winning a second term.

[Rocket Power]

What a surprise. The DA doesn't go for the hate crime enhancer:rolleyes:
The guy admits to targeting whites, but somehow it's not a hate crime. Give me a break


http://www.fox6now.com/news/witi-20110816-state-fair-mob,0,6931812.story


A juvenile has been charged by the Milwaukee County District Attorney's Office for his alleged involvement in the State Fair opening day mob attacks. The teen has been charged with Attempted Robbery, Use of Force and Party to a Crime.

This teen has not been charged with the hate crime enhancer. The District Attorney's Office is awaiting the results of a full investigation from West Allis and Milwaukee police. The District Attorney will look into hate crime charges for the other suspects being investigated.

[That_Guy]

In B4 the Lock!

Anyway, I was talking with a few Milwaukeeans. Some people think that 2013 will be a year of riots in Milwaukee. This will be due primarily to Obama not winning a second term.

Honestly i was preparing for that last election. I can't help but think the same thing for 2013.

[Rocket Power]

Why 2013? You don't think it would start election night (Nov 2012)or the next day depending on when the results are in?

[animal]

Why 2013? You don't think it would start election night (Nov 2012)or the next day depending on when the results are in?

Things take a bit to fester and boil over :)

[-stew-]

Things take a bit to fester and boil over :)

People don't think about rioting. Its not a decision one makes, its an impulse.

[animal]

People don't think about rioting. Its not a decision one makes, its an impulse.

True. My 2013 scenario involves a recount being demanded... then it'll sit and fester through to later in december or so until an official recount is declared complete. Close enough to 2013 ;)

[-stew-]

True. My 2013 scenario involves a recount being demanded... then it'll sit and fester through to later in december or so until an official recount is declared complete. Close enough to 2013 ;)

You and your scenarios...

[Taetsch Z-24]

So can I open carry my M4 after all?!

O_-