dog people

[whistlin six]

This is my boy Pederman, a four year old Border Collie mix from Wi.humane.
I got him when he was 8 months old.

http://www.brewcitymuscle.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7694&d=1312513857

He's incredibly smart and well mannered but he's developed an agressiveness toward other dogs over the past couple years. I tried to socialize him properly by bringing him to basic training, agility training and the dog parks. He was fine with other dogs for the first couple years but has gotten very bad lately. He wants to get at, and meet other dogs, but within 30 seconds he starts acting like he wants to fight the other dog and I have to pull him away. It's gotten so bad I won't let him near another dog anymore.

I need to work agressively to break him of this bad way, anyone have any experience with aggressive dogs?

Aside from that one thing he's a great dog, loves people and has never shown agressiveness toward any person ever. We exersize daily whether it's walking or roller blading, and I work with him every day on some sort of discipline training. He gets all the love and affection and play time that he wants too. I thought I did a good job raising him but something went wrong...

I

[Prince Valiant]

That's a tough one...this isn't the usual "my dog just hates other dogs..." type dog aggression.

In those cases, it's pretty straight forward but still not a simple case to deal with...but are, with time, solveable.

In YOUR case, it seems as if something triggers your dog...whether it's something that the other dog does that is otherwise innocent but you're dog takes incorrectly...OR the more likely that a process starts in your dog's head that keeps cycling until he "snaps" so to speak.

My guess is it would be the later...given your dog's Border Collie make-up. It's not unusual for BC and BC mixes to develop almost OCD type fixations. Whether your dog exhibits an OCD related behaviour and fixations is something that has to be observed first hand.

Another more benign type behaviour may simply be due to your dogs herding instincts. Most herding dogs herd by instilling a prey response in the animal they're herding. How? By staring at/stalking the animal.

In a typical prey animal like sheep, this is very effective. The sheep notice the stare, pay attention, and then move away from the dog in response to it's stalking/movement. Really, all herding is a hunting behavior...just without the kill.

In your guy's case, it might simply be that once he meets another dog, he starts looking at the dog as is his instinct (many herding breeds are known to herd dogs, kids, etc...). When the other dog stares or even simply looks back, this might present a problem or challenge to your dog to which he reacts aggressively.

The most straightforward way is to probably watch your dog and look for the subtle behaviors of your dog when he is with other dogs...and observe what his "trigger" is that sets him off. Another might be, if it is in fact an OCD type herding behavior is to actually give him an outlet and have him herd.

Of course, another possiblity is simply he's reacting to you...now when he meets a dog, he picks up on your anxiety knowing that he's had a bad incident(s) before. So when he associates increasing pack anxiety (even you two are a "pack" in his mind) as a result of another animal, this might trigger a defensive response. This is pretty simple to check out by having someone introduce him to other dogs when you're not around and how he reacts. This actually is not terribly uncommon either.

LMK...I can put him in the yard with one of my dogs (or murray's shepard if he'd let me, since he'd be more able to defend himself than my little guys or my larger but scared poodle) while you aren't around.

[05caddyext]

Few questions

After you pull him away from the other dogs how long does it take him to calm down?

You said he doesnt show aggression towards people, does he get angry that you pulled him away or does he seem to just "forget" that he was just about to tear some $hit up?

Does he actively pursue other dogs while you exercise him or does he focus on what he is doing with you?

[whistlin six]

Few questions

After you pull him away from the other dogs how long does it take him to calm down?

You said he doesnt show aggression towards people, does he get angry that you pulled him away or does he seem to just "forget" that he was just about to tear some $hit up?

Does he actively pursue other dogs while you exercise him or does he focus on what he is doing with you?

After I pull him away he stops the agressive barking right away, but he'll turn and look back and make an attempt or two to go toward the dog again.
Once he realizes he can't get at the dog anymore, he'll forget and act like nothing happened.
I interact with him a lot on our walks to remind him I'm in charge of the walk and the I'm assuming the role of pack leader.
Starting at the front door, I'll tell him to sit and stay while I walk out the door first, then he waits for the release "ok" to come out.
We frequently work on the command "wait", where he stops in his tracks and waits for me to say "ok" to continue.
He pays attention to me, but is more focused on sniffing and peeing than anything.

The first few years I let him go willy nilly on our walks with a retractable lead, that was a mistake. He took over as leader of the walk
and bad pulling habits developed. Now I only use a short leash and have been working on walking with no tension on the leash, in other
words right at my side. That has been one of the most difficult things to teach him, but he's finally learning that he's not leading anymore.

I agree with you Prince that he picks up on my anxiety when we cross paths with another dog, he'll start pulling toward the dog and then
the tension starts. Once he fixates his attention on another dog there's nothing I can do to get his attention back to me, and then the
trouble follows.

[JC70SS]

Mike,
Having 3 GSD I know this well. When he starts this behavior slam the dog down into a submission hold! Trust me it will work. If you need some help I can bring our big male by. Perhaps some large dogs will make him think twice!

[michelle]

Slam the dog down? I hate that method.

[JC70SS]

Slam the dog down? I hate that method.

Well Michelle with 90lbs dogs it doesn't really do much! A 20 lb dog I would do it. I am not the strongest guy in the world either unless B.O. counts! But, you MUST get the dogs undivided attention and let them know who is in control.

[michelle]

I have two 120+ pound Great Danes and two 30 pound Beagles. I've never encountered a dog in my life that I would use that "method" on. I've broken up GD fights and dealt with aggressive German Shepherds. Again, I would never use that method - not my style whatsoever. There are plenty of alternative methods to show a dog that you are boss and the "alpha" dog without using aggression.

[WhatsADSM]

Mike,
Having 3 GSD I know this well. When he starts this behavior slam the dog down into a submission hold! Trust me it will work. If you need some help I can bring our big male by. Perhaps some large dogs will make him think twice!

I too have a GSD... who has recently "come into his own skin". Mine has always been reactive with other dogs/people when on leash, and also anywhere around my property. However everywhere else he seems to be fine.

OP:

But with that said I would STRONGLY suggest you think twice about using the alpha dog pin thing. In general most would recommend against it. Also I can see it working better with GSDs than another breed, so it certainly is NOT a one-size-fits-all recommendation.

Have you tried the gentle leader head collar? Heard good things about it from people and my vet recommended it as well for my protective GSD (although I haven't used one yet and *should* try it).

[JC70SS]

Well Michelle I will say that the best Pit Bull rescue guy in california uses this method too! I don't give a damn I have an alpha female that will role any dog onto its back here and when that dog was young I had to use aggressive submission holds even laying on the dog to pin her down at times. She broke her aggressive habits quickly. I guess to each his own.

[whistlin six]

I'm familiar with the submission hold and in extreme cases (like this one) I wouldn't be opposed to using it.
It's not intended to hurt the dog in any way, it's more of a dominance reminder, like you said dogs will pin other dogs
to claim alpha. I'm a big fan of Ceasar Milans methods and I've seen him use it in cases where it's neccessary.

Pederman actually crossed the line last summer and bit the neighbors dog, it wasn't a good situation at all. I was out
out of town racing and my wife had to deal with it. Like I said, I consider this an extreme problem that needs to be fixed
asap. I'm just trying to figure out how to fix it.

If someone is really willing to introduce their dog to mine in a controlled environment I might just take you up on that offer.
As long as we can keep both dogs safe. At first I was opposed to the idea, but now I'm thinking it would be a good way to work with him.

If not they have specialized aggressive dog classes at Central Bark, I can always bring him there.

[whistlin six]

I have two 120+ pound Great Danes and two 30 pound Beagles. I've never encountered a dog in my life that I would use that "method" on. I've broken up GD fights and dealt with aggressive German Shepherds. Again, I would never use that method - not my style whatsoever. There are plenty of alternative methods to show a dog that you are boss and the "alpha" dog without using aggression.

What do you think Michelle? I know you have a lot of experience with dogs. How would you approach the solution?

[Prince Valiant]

Just let me know...if you're willing to drive by on a day/night I've got off, I'm more than willing to let your guy meet our dogs.

[whistlin six]

Thanks Prince Valiant, I appreciate your help.
I consider you one of BCMs dog experts.

I'll send you a pm if you're willing to give this a try.

[Prince Valiant]

Thanks Prince Valiant, I appreciate your help.
I consider you one of BCMs dog experts.

I'll send you a pm if you're willing to give this a try.Thanks! Shoot a PM whenever...next week will be a little busy, but I can find time...

[JC70SS]

Mike if your dog can be introduced to a large group of dogs at once it would be better. maybe at Chris' house?

[whistlin six]

Mike if your dog can be introduced to a large group of dogs at once it would be better. maybe at Chris' house?

I'm not sure how to handle that situation anymore, it would almost certainly lead to trouble.

[michelle]

What do you think Michelle? I know you have a lot of experience with dogs. How would you approach the solution?

I'd want to watch him to see what his body language is to learn more about what is going on with him.