Big step forward for Harley.

[-stew-]

Looks like they are taking a technological leap into the eighties!!!


http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2011/06/20/harley-davidson-water-cooled-heads-patent/

[Rocket Power]

:rolf:rolf:rolf

[juicedimpss]

80 hp stock could be a possibility now.

[Russ Jerome]

Far from water cooling it looks like a weak attempt to cool the insanely hot exhaust that is burning people on the 08+ models. Harley actualy gives newer bikes a switch that will kill a cylinder at idle, dumping fuel into the non firing hole to try and cool the exhaust.

[awsomeears]

Harley should have done this years ago..... Morons !!!

[88Nightmare]

one step forward for harley, while japanese bikes are already miles ahead and still speeding away fast

[juicedimpss]

Harley should have done this years ago..... Morons !!!

sadly,its not HD that are the morons....they are catering to their core buyers. Look at how the V-rod took off....lol

[Crawlin]

that's because there are more "parade riders" in chaps and crap going 5mph than there are those that actually go out and ride so they need the cylinder cutoff, haha

[-stew-]

Far from water cooling it looks like a weak attempt to cool the insanely hot exhaust that is burning people on the 08+ models. Harley actualy gives newer bikes a switch that will kill a cylinder at idle, dumping fuel into the non firing hole to try and cool the exhaust.


This is a joke, right?

[awsomeears]

sadly,its not HD that are the morons....they are catering to their core buyers. Look at how the V-rod took off....lol

True .....

[wrath]

Why did they bother with a water pump? Convection would be enough and wouldn't have to worry about the Made in China water pump failing.

[Russ Jerome]

This is a joke, right?

Nope, 100% true. Manualy killing rear cylinder at stop lights has been offerd since 09 I believe. 08+ bikes are so hot due to emmisions laws the exhaust temps have sent riders to hospital. Dont listen to me, Google "my 08, 09, 10 big twin is too hot". There are complete message boards about insane exhaust temps. For a few grand Harley offers a different intake, exhaust and tune to cool the exhaust, downside is it cancels your warranty.....

[BR3W CITY]

retarded.....it has to run hotter because of emissions, and the only reason emissions are a problem is because of the ancient technology they use.
This whole this is a back asswards work around. I swear, the only Harley I'd ever buy (new, the old panheads are cool from a historic standpoint) would be a vrod.

[Al]

I'm waiting for HD to use direct injection.

[pOrk]

I'm waiting for HD to use direct injection.

I am waiting for HD to catch up to the rest of the world, this isn't 1973 anymore.

[lordairgtar]

Nothing new.



http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2010/03/22/1947-water-cooled-drake-harley-davidson-knucklehead-engine/

[Voodoo]

Who needs cooling when your exhaust puts out 120 dB? The cylinder heads may not be cool, but the rider sure is.

[Al]

I am waiting for HD to catch up to the rest of the world, this isn't 1973 anymore.

Aside from air cooling, pushrods and oddfire (none of which are true problems), what is wrong with HD bikes?

They are reliable, produce adequate power and are modestly efficent.

Knowing the reliability of the v-rod engine, HD should have simply swapped that engine into the road king.

[pOrk]

Efficient? Reliable? Al put down the crack pipe my god.

[Wagonbacker9]

Aside from air cooling, pushrods and oddfire (none of which are true problems), what is wrong with HD bikes?

They are reliable, produce adequate power and are modestly efficent.

Knowing the reliability of the v-rod engine, HD should have simply swapped that engine into the road king.

You've clearly fallen prey to the same mentality that nearly killed GM. "It works good enough, nobody will ask us to do better." Sadly, HD's core market probably never will.

[88Nightmare]

Aside from air cooling, pushrods and oddfire (none of which are true problems), what is wrong with HD bikes?

They are reliable, produce adequate power and are modestly efficent.

Knowing the reliability of the v-rod engine, HD should have simply swapped that engine into the road king.


I hear harley owners complaining of mid 30's MPG on their cruisers. My Yamaha FZ6 gets 45mpg, and thats far from riding gently.

When I worked at House of Harley, I saw brand new cruisers with nearly 1700cc's stock (103ci) pump out low 50's for hp on the dyno, and the bike's running weight is about 900lbs. Price tag of about $25,000 new. My Yamaha is only 600cc's, and probably produces 80hp at the wheel (just a guess), my bike's running weight is about 440lbs (heavy for a jap bike). I paid $6,400 for my bike brand new. HUGE difference.

[Voodoo]

My Yamaha FZ6 gets 45mpg, and thats far from riding gently.

FZ6 FTW. I have a 2006

[88Nightmare]

fz6 ftw. I have a 2006

winning.

[Cutlass Queen]

I hear harley owners complaining of mid 30's MPG on their cruisers. My Yamaha FZ6 gets 45mpg, and thats far from riding gently.

When I worked at House of Harley, I saw brand new cruisers with nearly 1700cc's stock (103ci) pump out low 50's for hp on the dyno, and the bike's running weight is about 900lbs. Price tag of about $25,000 new. My Yamaha is only 600cc's, and probably produces 80hp at the wheel (just a guess), my bike's running weight is about 440lbs (heavy for a jap bike). I paid $6,400 for my bike brand new. HUGE difference.

I work with Harley on a daily basis for the quality of their powertrain parts and seeing what they deem as "scrap" is ridiculous. If they kept some of these parts with minor cosmetic defects (of course that won't effect the integrity of the castings) the bikes could probably be about $10k cheaper. I'll never own a Harley for this reason. It's insane the money thrown out for this stuff. Why not separate the castings with minor cosmetic defects - piece it together, and sell them - maybe the younger generations could actually afford to ride one.

[88Nightmare]

I don't see any casting blemishes on my bike, so even if they were as meticulous as harley was, my bike is still so much cheaper with better technology. And on the flip side, if there are blemishes there, I can't see them and obviously not bothered by them.

[frank_zappa_is_dead]

Thats why I ride a victory lol

[-stew-]

Since buying my dooky I'm gonna have to turn down my bashing of HD for being unreliable and overpriced LOL!

[Al]

Efficient? Reliable? Al put down the crack pipe my god.

If you include the AMF years, HD has a terrible reliability record. HD stepped up their game over the last 20 years, and especially the last 10. I have not read any recent motorcycle mags where they rip on the reliability of new Harleys.


You've clearly fallen prey to the same mentality that nearly killed GM. "It works good enough, nobody will ask us to do better." Sadly, HD's core market probably never will.

For starters, if odd-fire is so bad, why does the Yahmaha YZF-R1 have an oddfire crank?

Second, air cooled works. It is also a compromise. Simplicity and reliability have been gained at the expense of horsepower.

I really want to see HD do more with water cooling, but they have not yet. If HD went to all water-cooled, I don't think the company would lose a single loyalist. People don't say "I want an air cooled bike, that means I have to buy a Harley." It goes more along the lines of "I want a Harley. Their bikes are air cooled. I like air-cooled Harleys."

Third: Pushrods. GM still uses them. Once again, a compromise. In exchange for being able to fit lots of displacement in a small outside dimension, specific output is sacrificed.


I hear harley owners complaining of mid 30's MPG on their cruisers. My Yamaha FZ6 gets 45mpg, and thats far from riding gently.

When I worked at House of Harley, I saw brand new cruisers with nearly 1700cc's stock (103ci) pump out low 50's for hp on the dyno, and the bike's running weight is about 900lbs. Price tag of about $25,000 new. My Yamaha is only 600cc's, and probably produces 80hp at the wheel (just a guess), my bike's running weight is about 440lbs (heavy for a jap bike). I paid $6,400 for my bike brand new. HUGE difference.

You are comparing a heavy cruiser to a middleweight sport bike. I would expect some discrepancies. Also, are these all post-07 bikes that you are talking about?

The worst I ever got out of my 07 Sportster was probably in the low 40s, but that happened when I rode the bike at full speed (115mph) from downtown Miami to Jupiter, FL, on I95.


I work with Harley on a daily basis for the quality of their powertrain parts and seeing what they deem as "scrap" is ridiculous. If they kept some of these parts with minor cosmetic defects (of course that won't effect the integrity of the castings) the bikes could probably be about $10k cheaper. I'll never own a Harley for this reason. It's insane the money thrown out for this stuff. Why not separate the castings with minor cosmetic defects - piece it together, and sell them - maybe the younger generations could actually afford to ride one.

Personally, I think HD calculated out that it would be cheaper to recycle the bad parts rather than fix them. I take it that HD does not do too much with 6-sigma.

Last spring, I toured Signicast in Hartford. Signicast does investment castings and makes all of the "structural" components for the frame. Then again, those parts get painted, not plated. Very interesting process, though.


I think my next bike will not be a Harley.
Three priorities: Seat height, range, and lean angle.

[88Nightmare]

Your sportster is getting similar fuel mileage and I guarantee it doesn't make nearly as much power... and I bet it cost more

[Wagonbacker9]

Third: Pushrods. GM still uses them. Once again, a compromise. In exchange for being able to fit lots of displacement in a small outside dimension, specific output is sacrificed.

Hold on..... so you're arguing that an engine that is bigger (for no better reason than the sake of being bigger) even though it doesn't make any more power is.... a good thing?

Driving a GM pushrod V8 myself, I can assure you that specific output was not sacrificed for the sake of displacement. My 374 ci engine is rated for over 1hp/ci which rivals many modern DOHC engines...


Second, air cooled works. It is also a compromise. Simplicity and reliability have been gained at the expense of horsepower.
again, we are expensing horsepower for simplicity, and yet the more complex bike costs more than double... and lower horsepower. Not saying a harley rider craves horsepower, just pointing out that the argument doesn't hold water.

[BR3W CITY]

Thing is, look at the riders who do want "power". They buy the screaming eagle package and its still slower than most of the industry counterparts.

x2 on GM pushrod v8 making 1 hp/ci +

[Al]

Hold on..... so you're arguing that an engine that is bigger even though it doesn't make any more power is.... a good thing?

Nope. I think the advantage of pushrod engines is how compact they are. Did you ever see that pic of the old 5.0 sitting next to a 4.6?

What I look at is how much fuel goes in and how much power comes out. Also, I'm not thinking just about full-throttle driving. With other modern technologies and proper tuning, some pushrod engines (not all) can perform very well.

By comparison, doesn't the new Z51 have the same fuel economy ratings as the recently discontinued S2000? They weigh about the same, but one makes nearly double the HP.


again, we are expensing horsepower for simplicity, and yet the more complex bike costs more than double... and lower horsepower. Not saying a harley rider craves horsepower, just pointing out that the argument doesn't hold water.

That is not exactly what I am saying or implying. Also, HD is not making a more complex bike (unless chrome adds to the complexity).

Half of the cost of a Harley is the name. I think the bikes should cost less. Despite this, HD still sells more bikes than anyone else in the US. We are now talking business. If HD dropped the prices of all of their bikes, would sales increase in such a way that HD would be a more profitable company? Most likely, no.

A Toyota Prius is more heavily engineered than a Ferrari Enzo. Therefore, we should expect that Prius to do everything that the Enzo can do and more. But this is not the case.

Also, the technology to manufacture modern bikes, be it a Road King, Goldwing, R1 or Enfield Bullet do not vary much. Investment casting, injection molding, die casting, metal stamping, forging, hydroforming and welding, can easily be performed to very high standards. All mainstream companies can hold tight tolerances without requiring significant investment over a lower standard. In order to hold a tolerance of .0002, you have to replace your carbide cutters a little more often than if you wanted to hold .0005. Also, a company could choose to replace the leader pins on an injection mold after 500,000 cycles rather than 750,000 in order to prevent a parting-line seam at the edge of the part.

What I am implying here is that making high quality parts is not out of reach for any motorcycle company. I have not heard people complaining about the excessive play of certain assemblies from ANY motorcycle company. We could talk electronics, but it seems that everyone is on par with the potential of the ECU. Possibly, most of them are using the same programming language too. No manufacturer is saying "our computers are better than theirs."

About business again:
I think HD knows better than to build a bike which makes more power. If they did this, the buyers would be less likely to spend an extra 3k on parts at the dealership in order to make 10 more HP.

I believe that HD really knows what they are doing. If you don't like it, they could care less if you go and buy a Yamaha. Chances are, you have a WWII vet living down the road and you probably feel so guilty about riding that jap-pony past his house that there is NO way your next bike would not be an HD.

HD is specifically taylored around a target market. If HD truly did not know what they were doing, HD would not be the top selling bike in the US.

[Wagonbacker9]

Nope. I think the advantage of pushrod engines is how compact they are. Did you ever see that pic of the old 5.0 sitting next to a 4.6?
well, in ford's case... I'd say this wasn't advantagous for them... lol. Until they got absurdly complex with phasers and VVT etc I don't think it did much for them, but this is outside the scope... and I guess I don't see harleys with their wide stances and generous posture as being short on space. A sport bike on the other hand is built with the intention of keeping everything compact and streamlined, so I guess I question the validity of your point from that standpoint too.



What I look at is how much fuel goes in and how much power comes out. Also, I'm not thinking just about full-throttle driving. With other modern technologies and proper tuning, some pushrod engines (not all) can perform very well.

Right, case in point, the LS series.. Up until that was released I was of the opinion that pushrod V8s were archaic and destined-for-extinction engines. But where is harly achieving power out for fuel in efficiency? I think we already established that compared to the most comparable bikes available, they are sub par...



That is not exactly what I am saying or implying. Also, HD is not making a more complex bike (unless chrome adds to the complexity).
Yeah, I ment less complex bike being more expensive. my bad. If thats not what you were saying.. then I guess I missed it.



I believe that HD really knows what they are doing. If you don't like it, they could care less if you go and buy a Yamaha. Chances are, you have a WWII vet living down the road and you probably feel so guilty about riding that jap-pony past his house that there is NO way your next bike would not be an HD.

HD is specifically taylored around a target market. If HD truly did not know what they were doing, HD would not be the top selling bike in the US.
Back to the point of what almost killed GM, it was basically the "they will accept our shortcomings and like it" mentality, for their sake hopefully their target market continues to be happy to be paying more for an inferior product.
And just for the record, my grandfather was a WWII vet (pacific theater, FYI, and one of 5 people who took a POW), and when he passed, he owned a lexus. Not everyone is that stubborn or short-sighted.

[Wagonbacker9]

Just rereading that last part, and it comes off like I'm taking that personally. For the record, I'm just pointing out that unless you're talking about a dumb redneck mentality (I'll be hanging out with some of them this weekend up in the north woods) not everyone who got in a disagreement with the Japanese is unwilling to acknowedge the fact that pretty much every motor vehicle they have produced in the last 50 years is superior to our closest comparison. Thankfully, as of late, in the automotive side that gap has been narrowed. (Narrowed to the point that my Mazda got traded in on an american [powered] car...) In the end my only real point is I hope Harley is able to survive. My position is that they will need to improve in order to do so.

[Al]

well, in ford's case... I'd say this wasn't advantagous for them... lol. Until they got absurdly complex with phasers and VVT etc I don't think it did much for them, but this is outside the scope... and I guess I don't see harleys with their wide stances and generous posture as being short on space. A sport bike on the other hand is built with the intention of keeping everything compact and streamlined, so I guess I question the validity of your point from that standpoint too.


Right, case in point, the LS series.. Up until that was released I was of the opinion that pushrod V8s were archaic and destined-for-extinction engines. But where is harly achieving power out for fuel in efficiency? I think we already established that compared to the most comparable bikes available, they are sub par...

My original intention was to point out the merits, albeit few, of the pushrod.

As for "moderate efficiency" of a Harley, that comes from fuel injection. Everything from HD has fuel injection now. But I do not think HD had a choice with that due to emissions regulations. Despite the merits of fuel injection, there are still other bikes on the market that still come with carbs. That being said, not all motorcycle makes have taken full advantage of all of the latest and greatest technologies.

Off topic: despite all of the added complexity of newer engines, we have not seen a decrease in reliability. New engines can have 5x the number of components yet thy are more reliable than their predecessors.


Yeah, I ment less complex bike being more expensive. my bad. If thats not what you were saying.. then I guess I missed it.

HD is overpriced for what you get. Then again, people are still willing to pay for the name. As far as HD is concerned, the bike prices will not go down.

I think a Road King and Goldwing cost the same amount. The Goldwing can do everything the Road King can do and more, for the same price. So why don't people stop buying Road Kings?


Back to the point of what almost killed GM, it was basically the "they will accept our shortcomings and like it" mentality, for their sake hopefully their target market continues to be happy to be paying more for an inferior product.

Is HD even being threatened by the foreign motorcycle market right now?

Unlike the auto market of the 70s and 80s, HD is not making bikes that rust out before it gets off the dealership lot or is missing bolts for the engine mounts. Harley is not playing the "planned obsolescence" game right now. The bikes are built to last and they hold their value.

If you want to find a bike that has lost the majority of its value, go find a 5 year old sport bike. I was looking at 5 year old Z1000s the other day. I could have bought one with 12k on it for $3995. You can't get a 5 year old 883 sportster, which cost half as much new, for that little today.


And just for the record, my grandfather was a WWII vet (pacific theater, FYI, and one of 5 people who took a POW), and when he passed, he owned a lexus. Not everyone is that stubborn or short-sighted.

The "jap-pony" comment was a rip on residual feelings that exist in only a few people. Personally, I don't feel that way. Once again, it is a ploy which has more to do with marketing than true patriotic feelings. If you hang around "HD purists," many hold on to that "not buying American is treason" mentality. HD seems to take advantage of this mentality. If you look at all of their ads and listen to their commercials, they really play up patriotism.