FFL Questions (fivonut in here!)

[TheRX7Project]

I've come to a point where I would like to get my FFL. I'd like to do firearms transfers and build/sell a few guns (think custom AR's) on the side of my regular job. I figure it would give me a few extra bucks and allow me to do what I enjoy anyway. Not to mention the perks of being able to buy stuff a little cheaper.

I have a few questions however. Basically where do I start? Am I best off buying one of those "kits" that I see everytime I do a search for "FFL information"? Some places are saying I need a storefront, some are saying I don't... what's the deal there?

Any help is appreciated.

[That_Guy]

There are a few tax stamps you need to apply for.. I'm actually getting ready to file everything so I can finish up a. Sbr build

[That_Guy]

Also gl if you live in milwaukee county they are pretty I liberal when it comes to ffl paper work and having leo's sign for it

[Rocket Power]

http://atf.gov/firearms/how-to/become-an-ffl.html

[Wagonbacker9]

from a conversation I had with a FFL, the "kits" are a complete waste.

[fivonut]

I've come to a point where I would like to get my FFL. I'd like to do firearms transfers and build/sell a few guns (think custom AR's) on the side of my regular job. I figure it would give me a few extra bucks and allow me to do what I enjoy anyway. Not to mention the perks of being able to buy stuff a little cheaper.

I have a few questions however. Basically where do I start? Am I best off buying one of those "kits" that I see everytime I do a search for "FFL information"? Some places are saying I need a storefront, some are saying I don't... what's the deal there?

Any help is appreciated.

If you're going to assemble and sell firearms you will need a type 07 FFL manufacturer and dealer. It'll cost ya $150 every three years. ITAR registration (pretty much mandatory for type 07's) will run you $2500 per year. To get your license you'll need to fill out the application. You'll get fingerprint cards which need to be completed, completed app, $150 fee, and 2 2x2 passport style photos. The application asks for Chef law enforcement officer's signature of approval. I had no problem getting one from Hortonville PD. Milwaukee may be another story. The agent who came to my house told me it wasn't necessary. Lastly, you'll have to be in compliance will ALL local zoning ordinance. If you're not you won't get the license. I had to get a letter from the village exempting me from part of their ordinance because it stated home based businesses can only sell product that are manufactured in the home. Without the letter the ATF was going to deny my license.

So, store front, yes...or......no. It depends on your zoning ordinance. If you're buying complete rifles and adding a few modifications, maybe you won't fall under manufacturing, that's a question best asked of the ATF. In which case, you won't fall under ITAR either. If you're buying stripped lowers and uppers and assembling a rifle you're definitely manufacturing.

Best thing you can do is call the ATF field office (I'm pretty sure is in Milwaukee) and ask. They are more than willing to answer your questions. That's where I got the best information from.

Another problem you'll run into is distributors who won't work with home based FFL's. A lot of them want pictures of inventory and store front. If you get that far hit me up again, I can point you in the right directions. I have 25+ accounts with distributors and manufacturers.

Forget the kits, they are highway robbery. They don't give you any information you can't get by calling or googling.

[Reverend Cooper]

go to the ATF website. Google is your friend

[Rocket Power]

go to the ATF website. Google is your friend


http://atf.gov/firearms/how-to/become-an-ffl.html

[TheRX7Project]

I did check our the ATF site before I came here, and googling only brought up more questions (i.e. some people say this is legal others say it isn't, etc.)

That definitely puts a damper on things if I need to pay manufacturer's dues to assemble lowers. I'm actually surprised at that since I figured once you have the lower you "have the gun" since that's the part with the SN. I suppose there are ways around this, especially since it's not like I plan to do it full time and only plan to build a few rifles here and there. (Thinking, sell the lowers stripped but also sell assembly services).

Regardless, thanks for the information. I will try and find more info and be sure to ask about the manufacturing part of it, and find out about the zoning situation.

[fivonut]

I did check our the ATF site before I came here, and googling only brought up more questions (i.e. some people say this is legal others say it isn't, etc.)

That definitely puts a damper on things if I need to pay manufacturer's dues to assemble lowers. I'm actually surprised at that since I figured once you have the lower you "have the gun" since that's the part with the SN. I suppose there are ways around this, especially since it's not like I plan to do it full time and only plan to build a few rifles here and there. (Thinking, sell the lowers stripped but also sell assembly services).

Regardless, thanks for the information. I will try and find more info and be sure to ask about the manufacturing part of it, and find out about the zoning situation.

One more thing I forgot. Once you assemble a complete rifle you have to pay excise tax. That's 11% of the sale price.

Once you see all the fees on paper there's not as much money in guns as people think there are. You'll see advertisements saying 30% markup. That's a joke and based on MSRP prices which you'll never get.

[Reverend Cooper]

right what he said,there is a 800 number you can call also and ask any questions you need to. thats the only place i would get any info from

[TheRX7Project]

What about NOT getting my FFL, and just buying lower recievers (through a FFL) and assembling them, then selling them FTF or on Gunbroker? As long as I'm selling my "personal firearms" I should be ok? This seems like it is way more complicated than it should be.

Also someone on ARFCOM brought up the point that the ATF might just pull my FFL for not doing enough business since I'm not really going to do it full time.

[fivonut]

What about NOT getting my FFL, and just buying lower recievers (through a FFL) and assembling them, then selling them FTF or on Gunbroker? As long as I'm selling my "personal firearms" I should be ok? This seems like it is way more complicated than it should be.

Also someone on ARFCOM brought up the point that the ATF might just pull my FFL for not doing enough business since I'm not really going to do it full time.

That's a wives tale. If somebody's FFL got pulled it probably had more to do with local zoning than the ATF caring about their sales.

You are allowed to build and sell your own firearms. But after a certain point you're no longer exempt and will be required to get an 07 FFL. I'm pretty sure the ATF cite has some info on this.

[TheRX7Project]

I think it's a safe bet with the few I plan to build, I'll be OK without an FFL. That still leaves me without being able to do transfers however.

From what I have read about zoning in Milwaukee county that seems like the biggest issue I'd have. I'd have to find out what exactly my residence is zoned as. Once again let me point out that this is way more complicated than it needs to be. On the other hand a storefront/office is pretty cheap to lease...

[fivonut]

I think it's a safe bet with the few I plan to build, I'll be OK without an FFL. That still leaves me without being able to do transfers however.

From what I have read about zoning in Milwaukee county that seems like the biggest issue I'd have. I'd have to find out what exactly my residence is zoned as. Once again let me point out that this is way more complicated than it needs to be. On the other hand a storefront/office is pretty cheap to lease...

From the ATF side of things it's actually pretty simple. Fill out an app, pay the fee, pass a background check. It's everybody else sticking their nose in that makes it a PITA. The State Department decided to FUBAR things with ITAR. Local municipalities can make you jump through hoops to meet zoning, then the Commerce Dept decided they whated a piece of the pie and charged excise tax. Then there's the distributors who think us home based guys are just trying to get cheap guns so they don't like to work with us. The ATF actually seems to be VERY willing to give an FFL to anyone who qualifies, it's everybody else that makes it more difficult than it needs to be.

I lucked out living in BFE. Hortonville zoning ordinance permits home based businesses. Many larger municipalities don't.

I'd highly recommend talking to the ATF about how many you can build and sell without falling under their jurisdiction. You don't want to be caught after the fact, it will get A LOT more expensive. As far as excise tax I think there's a 50 gun per year buffer. They don't collect until you build more than 50 and I do know of type 07's that are not paying the ITAR registration. The regulations are very unclear as to who is required and who is exempt. BUT, I've heard of fines in the millions of dollars for not registering and getting caught.

[Reverend Cooper]

you dont have to do a transfer for a lower if its a private party sale,so why even bother?

[fivonut]

you dont have to do a transfer for a lower if its a private party sale,so why even bother?

Yeh, it'd be hard for the ATF to figure it out. I just wouldn't want to risk it. That's not to say it doesn't happen. I'd bet hundreds of guys buy parts build rifles and sell em without ever getting an FFL.

[Reverend Cooper]

but if you bought a stripped lower and the rest of the parts idividually,then put it together with a upper for personal use then sold it its a private sale they cant do anything about it its not illegal to do so

[fivonut]

but if you bought a stripped lower and the rest of the parts idividually,then put it together with a upper for personal use then sold it its a private sale they cant do anything about it its not illegal to do so

Right, but if they start to see a pattern, then questions will be asked.

[Reverend Cooper]

but really what can be done? they have to legal right to stop you

[TheRX7Project]

Yeah but you forget that the ATF does what they ATF wants. Like that guy who was arrested in WI when his rifle malfunctioned (slam fired) and put in Club Fed for having an MG.

[Rocket Power]

They'll have some amount that you will be engaging in a business once you pass it. Its the same thing with a c&r. I can sell things out of my collection, but if you do it enough they will say you're acting as a business,and put the screws to you.

[Reverend Cooper]

sure they just want there tax money
but i can buy as many items threw a ffl as i want and sell them privately

[Coops Brother]

You are treading in murky water. ATF says to issue a FFL you must be "engaged in the business of dealing firearms" if you intend to just buy some firearms for yourself to get a discount, you will not get one. Also if your residence is not zoned business/residential, you will absolutely not be issued a FFL.