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View Full Version : Anyone remember when the choice was two or three speeds?



Prince Valiant
01-12-2011, 10:24 AM
Up until the late 60's and into the early 70's, it wasn't uncommon that that was a choice presented to you if you wanted an automatic....


Well, now one has the options to choose 9 speeds :stare

ZF to build 9 speed @ freep.com (http://www.freep.com/article/20110112/BUSINESS01/101120375/1210/business01/Supplier-ZF-Group-aims-to-boost-fuel-efficiency-with-9-speed-transmission)

Apparently because of the traverse/fwd nature of the arrangement, a 9 speed makes more sense to build than the 8 in this layout. As compact as 6 speed w/ decent torque ratings of 295ft-lbs, the transmission is supposed to offer at least 10% efficiency increases over conventional 6 speed automatics.

the small steps b/w gears, plus shock-absorb torque converters are said to make shifts seems inperceptible...and a very wide gearspread will probably allow the use of much smaller/less more efficient engines to realize even greater efficiency gains...

One headline read "ZF 9-Speed Transmission Is One Gear Away From Drop Handlebars" lol...

The ZF Group unveiled a nine-speed automatic transmission Tuesday at the North American International Auto Show that the supplier says will improve fuel efficiency of front-wheel drive cars.

Adding speeds to a transmission improves the engine's efficiency because less energy is lost as gears are changed.

The new nine-speed from ZF is "a major step for front-wheel drive cars in terms of fuel consumption," said ZF Executive Vice President Michael Paul.

The new transmission will be built at the German supplier's new Greenville, S.C., plant, Paul said. Production is scheduled to begin in 2012, and Chrysler is a customer for the new sideways-mounted transmission.

He declined to discuss specifics about the new nine-speed transmission, including the number of gears in overdrive or the number of clutches, saying only that it will be a double-digit improvement in fuel economy and that the packaging is almost the same size as the eight-speed transmission's.

ZF -- whose Michigan presence includes a technical center in Northville and production facilities in Lapeer and Marysville, St. Clair County -- plans to triple sales in the North American market.

Sales last year were an estimated $17.1 billion -- an all-time high -- up from $12.4 billion in 2009, Paul said. However, 2009's figure was a 25% drop from $16.6 billion in pre-recession 2008, according to Paul.

The ZF Group's 2011 plans include increasing sales by 10%, creating 3,000 jobs worldwide and investing $1 billion in research and development.

This year marked the first time the driveline and chassis technology maker has had a booth on the main floor of the auto show, according to Paul.

Read more: Supplier ZF Group aims to boost fuel efficiency with 9-speed transmission | freep.com | Detroit Free Press http://www.freep.com/article/20110112/BUSINESS01/101120375/Supplier-ZF-Group-aims-to-boost-fuel-efficiency-with-9-speed-transmission#ixzz1Aq2Scz00

88Nightmare
01-12-2011, 10:38 AM
i thought it was weird when they started offering 6 speed autos. with imperceptible shifts, it would almost seem like you were driving something with a cvt trans or a snowmobile

GTSLOW
01-12-2011, 10:55 AM
Sounds bad ass.

BAD LS1
01-12-2011, 10:56 AM
Well they should be able to get grand canyon deep 1st gear ratio's to help get pigs out the hole better with that. the current 6 speed offerings from GM have a 4.02 first gear. I would suspect they could move closer to mid 4's or real close to 5 with a 9 speed. That deep 1st with close ratio's on up the line are a boon to performance, the difference feels equal to putting a loose stall in a 4 speed w/o the loose stall feeling.

it does blow my mind though how this is just all done with planetaries and no bands/drums. The use of mechatronics in place of the conventional valve body are becoming ever popular too.

Im just really started dealving into AT's but even back in the mid 60's they had some wild technology for auto's. i just rebuilt a TH300 (super turbine 300) 2 speed jetaway with "switch pitch" in a '65 cutlass f85. These things had electronic solenoids in them which operated a hydraulically controlled variable vane converter. which would makei t have a looser stall speed at idle or WOT and tighten up during part throttle for economy ( controlled by a TPS type kickdown switch at the carb). And that shit came out in the 60's!

Prince Valiant
01-12-2011, 11:03 AM
the current 6 speed offerings from GM have a 4.02 first gear. I would suspect they could move closer to mid 4's or real close to 5 with a 9 speed.
ZF's current 8 speed uses a 4.70 1st :wow

No info on the ratio's for the 9 speed...but the current 8's ratios:
1st- 4.70
2nd- 3.13
3rd- 2.10
4th- 1.667
5th- 1.29
6th- 1.00
7th- 0.83
8th- 0.67

the old 4 speeds had ranges from low 4's to 3.5 (1st gear divided by top gear), while the six speeds are on the order of 6.0...these new ones will be up over 7.1...

BAD LS1
01-12-2011, 11:04 AM
ZF's current 8 speed uses a 4.70 1st :wow

No info on the ratio's for the 9 speed...but the current 8's ratios:
1st- 4.70
2nd- 3.13
3rd- 2.10
4th- 1.667
5th- 1.29
6th- 1.00
7th- 0.83
8th- 0.67

That has just got to make something thats a heavy pig just come out of the hole like a bitch!

Prince Valiant
01-12-2011, 11:17 AM
That has just got to make something thats a heavy pig just come out of the hole like a bitch!Case in point:

BMW X3 (currently uses zf sourced 8 speed...)
Curb wt: 4211lbs
Hp: 300 (ordinary)
tq: 300 (ordinary)

1/4 mile: 14.2 @ 97mph :wow

EPA city/hwy: 19/26 :wow
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/10q4/2011_bmw_x3_xdrive35i-short_take_road_test

That's why I'm looking forward to both the 9 and 8 speeds showing up in the mopars...:goof

animal
01-12-2011, 11:20 AM
Anyone remember when the choice was two or three speeds?

I think you gotta be OLD to remember that.

Prince Valiant
01-12-2011, 11:24 AM
I think you gotta be OLD to remember that.
I was born just after GM stopped offering the 2 speeds...

BUT, I still remember routinely riding in cars that had them...heck, we had a couple kids in h.s. that showed up w/ 2 speeds.

Ironically, at Greendale HS where I work, we had two girls who daily drove older "classic" cars, both with powerglides (a nova and a malibu) :thumbsup...yes, even in salt and snow :(

BR3W CITY
01-12-2011, 02:12 PM
9 speeds available to the public, and drag-racers still rock the 'glide :)

wrath
01-12-2011, 07:27 PM
The problem is that most of the transmissions can't handle real power in first gear. They're torque-managed to shit to get them to hold up.

If they made them so they could handle 500ftlbs of input torque and survive 6500rpm shifts at 500hp.

The 4.03 first gear allows me to boil the hides on my truck... when the PCM says so.

And a 10% improvement over a transmission that only loses 10% isn't anything to be terribly excited about. What they really need to do is to find out a way not to use the planetaries in top gear and bleed off pressure so there isn't pumping losses.

Al
01-12-2011, 10:37 PM
I've driven too many cars where 1st gear is too short.
The cars that come to mind are my mother's VW Jetta and my dad's S4. Both cars shift out of first around 5 mph and it is very noticable. In contrast, my Olds will carry 1st past 15. Even when it shifts, it is far smoother than any other car I have driven in lately.