EPA Threatens to Raise Ethanol Content in Gasoline

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EPA Threatens to Raise Ethanol Content in Gasoline

Under pressure from ethanol producers to raise the ethanol content in gasoline, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) could issue a decision later this month allowing the use of E15 in late-model cars. It could permit the use in other cars at a later date. The SEMA Action Network (SAN) opposes the shift from E10 to E15 due to concerns that the additional content will harm automobiles of all ages, including special interest collector and historic vehicles. To date, there is a lack of conclusive information regarding E15’s effect on engines of different model years. In addition to the potential harm of E15 on engine components, the EPA has no procedure in place to ensure misfueling does not occur or any plan for ensuring regular gasoline continues to be available for older vehicles. The SAN’s concerns are shared by a number of other industry organizations.

We Urge You to Ask President Obama (Contact Information Below) to Stop the EPA from Raising the Ethanol Content in Gasoline


Dear Mr. President:

I strongly urge you to stop the Environmental Protection Agency from raising the amount of ethanol in gasoline from today’s 10 percent (E10) to 15 percent (E15) – a 50 percent increase.

* The EPA is under pressure from some corporate ethanol supporters to raise the rates in order to boost sales. However, scientific studies have not yet been completed on concerns that the added content could harm auto parts of all ages.
* When ethanol levels are raised, engines react differently and in a potentially dangerous way. Ethanol causes engines to burn hotter which could lead to premature engine and equipment failure. For newer cars, the “check engine” light may appear unnecessarily or too late to avoid costly repairs.
* Ethanol also increases water formation in the fuel system, especially when the vehicle sits over a period of time. Under these conditions, formic acid is created which corrodes metals, plastics and rubber. This can lead to engine/parts failures and, potentially, safety hazards.
* If the EPA approves E15, it will state that the increased ethanol is only for recent model cars. However, once a new fuel mix enters the gasoline supply system, it will inevitably end up in the wrong engines.
* Gasoline without any ethanol may simply disappear from the marketplace for millions of Americans with older cars or special interest collector and historic vehicles. E10 has already made this a reality in many areas of the country.
* The EPA should wait until all of the scientific research is complete. There is no need for a rush to judgment.

DON’T DELAY! Please contact President Obama at http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact

Please e-mail a copy of your letter to Steve McDonald at stevem@sema.org. Thank you for your assistance.

[SSLEVO]

That whole ethanol deal is a scam, what a crock of shit. I did like E85 in my boosted car however, LOL

[deuceWI]

I'm surprised how well my car seems to run on 91 octane with no ethanol, noticeably smoother than 93 octane with 10%. I sure hope they don't go bumping it higher.

[GRM-REPR]

Why haven't we heard anything on what scientists have said about how ethanol actually being more harmful?

It's such horse crap, not to mention the prices we get raped on for this junk. I get better miles with "real" gas than ethanol as well...

Politics and $$$ is always the angle.....

[Prince Valiant]

Under pressure from ethanol producers to raise the ethanol content in gasoline
There's the problem...why should a corporate entity or industry think that pressuring the gov't get results? Because it oftentimes does...

[knickick]

Hi deuceWI. That's good for you man! Keep it up. :D

[PureSound15]

That blows. It seems the only place I can only count on Shell 93 to not have corn in it.

No cats + 91-93 + ethanol = smells like crap

[BR3W CITY]

Since when does anyone give a fuck about America's Ethanol producers? If your crop/product sucks, and no one likes it, get a new damn product! Don't force me to swallow your bullshit.

[hrsp]

There's the problem...why should a corporate entity or industry think that pressuring the gov't get results? Because it oftentimes does...

:mad:

[DRK]

With the amount of shit that varies in pump swill from pump to pump and station to station I don't believe the extra 5% ethanol is anything to worry about.

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I'd prefer not to head in that direction however.

[DRK]

I'd prefer not to head in that direction however.

Why? You have no idea what your pumping into your car now so what's the difference?

I think the gov. should put more money into the research and technology to run our whole nation on 85% that's made in the U.S.A instead of inefficient and costly wind and solar farms

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-Without ethanol a friend gets roughly 10-15% more miles to a tank. My right foot likes to have too much to record anything that accurate.

-Older cars with carbs tend to run better without it.

-The main reasons they listed in the article: high combustion temps, increased water formation in the fuel system, etc

[jbiscuit]

I wouldn't doubt this is gear towards the benefit of a trickle down effect also. Think of how many cars are on the road currently that will have fuel systems affected by putting this swill in the tank? Car runs like shit and/or fails which requires work to be done by mechanic which keeps those people employed etc. I know the majority of the reasoning behind ram-rodding this through has to do with the over abundance of E85 sitting around not being used and ethanol in general. The feds don't give a shit if the fuel costs your or I more at the pump or if it damages your car.

[DRK]

-Older cars with carbs tend to run better without it.


-The main reasons they listed in the article: high combustion temps, increased water formation in the fuel system, etc


I don't believe the hype.

My carbed car runs just fine on E10 and it also will on E85 when I need the higher resistance to detonation then pump "gas" can provide.

How can a fuel that has less btus cause higher combustion temps? Every ethanol car I know of including my last car runs dead ass cold.

Even pure gasoline is hydroscopic and will absorb amounts of water obvious to the eye over time.

[brngrhd]

I'm with DRK on this one. there is BS being spread all over about ethanol. is it harder on some fuel systems yes anything that is newer no. yeah your old cars are going to have some small issues oh my i have ot have my car redone and im going to have to switch the rubber line out every now and then. the metal line no problem...... but the biggest BS thing is the running hotter any one that has been around any alky knows that it burns a LOT colder. the guy is making it sound like it is going to burn your engine down.... not the case. it will not harm the engine in any way. some fuel systems may need to be updated or mantained more often.

[BR3W CITY]

my issue is just that im being charged for gas, and not getting only gas. I want a fucking choice.

[Rocket Power]

I'm with DRK on this one. there is BS being spread all over about ethanol. is it harder on some fuel systems yes anything that is newer no. yeah your old cars are going to have some small issues oh my i have ot have my car redone and im going to have to switch the rubber line out every now and then. the metal line no problem...... but the biggest BS thing is the running hotter any one that has been around any alky knows that it burns a LOT colder. the guy is making it sound like it is going to burn your engine down.... not the case. it will not harm the engine in any way. some fuel systems may need to be updated or mantained more often.
So you think I should have to change to a less efficient fuel that is going to cost me more in fuel and maintainence?

Sign me up.:rolleyes:

[Sprayaway Fox]

When I drove my junk on regular 93 on a full tank and then filled up on the HWY. with the other crap I noticed a difference. My car liked the non formulated stuff. It idled smoother, and ran harder.

[DRK]

So you think I should have to change to a less efficient fuel that is going to cost me more in fuel and maintainence?

Sign me up.:rolleyes:

you act like you have a choice now, you have no clue what your pumping into your car if you think pump 93 is straight gasoline and every station is the same.


When I drove my junk on regular 93 on a full tank and then filled up on the HWY. with the other crap I noticed a difference. My car liked the non formulated stuff. It idled smoother, and ran harder.

I have a friend that swears his car is faster after a oil change and a detail, that doesn't mean it's so.



I'm with DRK on this one. there is BS being spread all over about ethanol. is it harder on some fuel systems yes anything that is newer no. yeah your old cars are going to have some small issues oh my i have ot have my car redone and im going to have to switch the rubber line out every now and then. the metal line no problem...... but the biggest BS thing is the running hotter any one that has been around any alky knows that it burns a LOT colder. the guy is making it sound like it is going to burn your engine down.... not the case. it will not harm the engine in any way. some fuel systems may need to be updated or mantained more often.

I had a 3/8 rubber line in a jar of E85 for almost 3 yrs and it looked new. I've seen sunoco purple turn shit into jelly over the winter.

[FoxStang]

you act like you have a choice now, you have no clue what your pumping into your car if you think pump 93 is straight gasoline and every station is the same.
The point is the difference between gas with ethanol content and none is night and day. In my car the difference between e85 and regular pump is about 35% cost in millage. Boonies gas with no ethanol versus slight ethanol content is about 10-15%. With the price on average of e85 being about 20% better than regular pump, whats my incentive again for filling up with e85?

The government mandating changes that cost us even more money in the end, that's supposed to be a good thing? I'm confused, please explain what good will come of this.

[Rocket Power]

you act like you have a choice now, you have no clue what your pumping into your car if you think pump 93 is straight gasoline and every station is the same.


So I should go from at least trying to get decent gas to getting crap on purpose? Not seeing the benefit to purposely getting crappy fuel. if you want it fine. Some of us don't.

[DRK]

So I should go from at least trying to get decent gas to getting crap on purpose? Not seeing the benefit to purposely getting crappy fuel. if you want it fine. Some of us don't.


If a car makes more power on alcohol then gas, how can alcohol be crap?


Run what you like but if the gov./county mandates it as they have E10 around here, what choice do you have? none.



Does anyone have any numbers to back up the claim of lost power on pump E10 93 vs. pump 93? Because on a 450hp N/A SBF going from pump 93 to rocket 100 and adding 3degrees was only worth 17HP. The typical standard of the seat of the pants dyno is that it takes 15hp to feel a diff.. So that would mean that everyone who has felt a loss in power running E10 had a 15+HP drop :rolleyes:

[Rocket Power]

I never checked for a loss of power, but I have lost mileage in every car and truck I've had, and none of my cars or motorcycles need more than 93 octane. I see NO benefit and only down sides for me with ethanol whether is 5,10,50 or 85%. Its not as efficient for my uses and is subsidized with and wasting our tax dollars.

I don't need it and I don't want it, and just because some misguided tree huggers or the farm lobby are pressuring them to keep it,expand its use and trying to raise the percentage , doesn't mean I want it or a higher percentage of it.

[brngrhd]

FWIW the ONLY reason that the price of E85 is as high as it is is because of the oil companies. They bought a ton of corn futures to drive the price of corn up and thus the cost of E85 making it a less vibale option. I want C16 at the pump for 1.87 but lets get real we are going to get what they give us and it is our job to make power and economy as best we can..........

[Al]

I don't believe the hype.

My carbed car runs just fine on E10 and it also will on E85 when I need the higher resistance to detonation then pump "gas" can provide.

What tweaking do you have to do to your car when you switch from E10 to E85? If you do not have to do any tuning, then I doubt that your engine is properly tuned to either fuel.


How can a fuel that has less btus cause higher combustion temps?

Burn Rate

Despite having a lower BTU rating, ethanol burns at a different rate than regular petroleum hydrocarbons. This difference in the burn rate will result in increased temperatures. A high-energy slow burn occurs at lower temperatures than a quick, slightly lower energy burn.


Every ethanol car I know of including my last car runs dead ass cold.

This statement has ZERO legitimacy to me. You better provide me with some additional details before I believe a word of it.

Are you talking street cars or race cars?
Drag racing or road corse?
Modified or mostly stock?
Woman driver???
Were the cars in nominal working condition?
How was the weather?

How large was your study group and was it even an experiment that properly followed the scientific method?


Even pure gasoline is hydroscopic and will absorb amounts of water obvious to the eye over time.

Why are we so concerned about water in our fuel supply? I only worry about this when my car has been sitting for a year or two.

[70 cutlass 442]

Why? You have no idea what your pumping into your car now so what's the difference?

I think the gov. should put more money into the research and technology to run our whole nation on 85% that's made in the U.S.A instead of inefficient and costly wind and solar farms



Like the government hasn't wasted enough money on this garbage. They subsidize the crap out of this stuff to keep the farmers producing it, not to mention, you burn 30% more then current 10% mixtures.... wheres the efficiency coming from?


I don't believe the hype.

My carbed car runs just fine on E10 and it also will on E85 when I need the higher resistance to detonation then pump "gas" can provide.

How can a fuel that has less btus cause higher combustion temps? Every ethanol car I know of including my last car runs dead ass cold.

Even pure gasoline is hydroscopic and will absorb amounts of water obvious to the eye over time.

Since when does ignition temperature directly relate to energy output?


If a car makes more power on alcohol then gas, how can alcohol be crap?




Wrong, The fuel makes no more power.... the higher octane allows more boost or higher compression which is where the power is made... not in the fuel.

[Al]

I think the gov. should put more money into the research and technology to run our whole nation on 85% that's made in the U.S.A instead of inefficient and costly wind and solar farms

F that. We need algae-derived biodiesel.


If a car makes more power on alcohol then gas, how can alcohol be crap?

I usually don't give extensive attention to your posts, but this proves that you are not fully aware of the situation here.

For starters, stop thinking "full throttle."
You don't drive around all day with the pedal floored. 99.5% of the time is spent with the throttle feathered somewhere between closed and open. Even at highway speeds, it is closer to closed.

Just because a car is capable of making more power when running on one fuel over another, it does not mean it performs better at everything else. If my car made an extra 5% power on E85, assuming it was engineered for it, I would not be satisfied with this because I would be using about 15% more fuel just to break even with standard petroleum.

If I fill my car with regular gasoline and start heading down the road, I will have to fill up my car later than if I used anything with a higher ethanol content.

Dollar for dollar, nothing beats regular petroleum for range.
Ethanol fails at this due to subsidies made available to ethanol producers. It might appear to be cheaper than regular gas, but you are paying extra for it through your taxes.



Does anyone have any numbers to back up the claim of lost power on pump E10 93 vs. pump 93? Because on a 450hp N/A SBF going from pump 93 to rocket 100 and adding 3degrees was only worth 17HP. The typical standard of the seat of the pants dyno is that it takes 15hp to feel a diff.. So that would mean that everyone who has felt a loss in power running E10 had a 15+HP drop :rolleyes:

Once again, ethanol is less powerful than gasoline. Ethanol will allow an engine to make a higher maximum power, but only when the engine is tuned for it. Its higher octane rating allows you to take compression a step further before detonation becomes an issue.
The REAL issue is that a gallong of E10 will not take you as far as a gallon of E-zero. I want my dollar to take me farther.

[DRK]

F that. We need algae-derived biodiesel.




Just because a car is capable of making more power when running on one fuel over another, it does not mean it performs better at everything else. If my car made an extra 5% power on E85, assuming it was engineered for it, I would not be satisfied with this because I would be using about 15% more fuel just to break even with standard petroleum.

If I fill my car with regular gasoline and start heading down the road, I will have to fill up my car later than if I used anything with a higher ethanol content.

Dollar for dollar, nothing beats regular petroleum for range.
Ethanol fails at this due to subsidies made available to ethanol producers. It might appear to be cheaper than regular gas, but you are paying extra for it through your taxes.




Once again, ethanol is less powerful than gasoline. Ethanol will allow an engine to make a higher maximum power, but only when the engine is tuned for it. Its higher octane rating allows you to take compression a step further before detonation becomes an issue.
The REAL issue is that a gallong of E10 will not take you as far as a gallon of E-zero. I want my dollar to take me farther.



^^^ThisVVV






This statement has ZERO legitimacy to me. You better provide me with some additional details before I believe a word of it.

Are you talking street cars or race cars?
Drag racing or road corse?
Modified or mostly stock?
Woman driver???
Were the cars in nominal working condition?
How was the weather?

How large was your study group and was it even an experiment that properly followed the scientific method?

[BR3W CITY]

F that. We need algae-derived biodiesel.

Agreed, I would be happy driving a big diesel and paying like $1.50/gal

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EPA Denies E15 Waiver for Pre-2001 Cars, Permits Use in Newer Cars

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency confirmed that there is insufficient test data to permit E15 to be used in MY 2000 and older light-duty motor vehicles. The SEMA Action Network (SAN) has consistently voiced concern that ethanol increases water formation which can then create formic acid and corrode metals, plastics and rubber. While the SAN is pleased with the decision that older cars should not be fueled with E15, the association is disappointed that the EPA issued an E15 waiver for 2007 and newer vehicles. The agency is still gathering data for the 2001-2006 vehicles. The EPA’s ruling responds to a request from the ethanol industry to raise the ethanol content in gasoline from 10 percent (E10) to 15 percent (E15).

Consumers will not see E15 at the pump any time soon. The EPA must first approve regulations on how gas stations will label their pumps to avoid consumer misfueling. This will take months. Furthermore, there is no obligation that gasoline retailers market the fuel. In fact, some retailers oppose the fuel over concern that they could be held liable if E15 damages a vehicle. The gas stations and distributors may also need to invest in new storage tanks, hoses and other equipment.

The SAN will continue to oppose E15 until there are conclusive scientific findings that demonstrate that it will not harm automobiles of any age as a result of corrosion or other chemical incompatibilities. SEMA represents thousands of companies that market products for these vehicles and, through its SEMA Action Network, millions of enthusiasts who buy and operate these automobiles. Questions/comments may be directed to Steve McDonald at stevem@sema.org.



you act like you have a choice now, you have no clue what your pumping into your car if you think pump 93 is straight gasoline and every station is the same.

There is still a standard deviation of percent Ethanol.

[GTSLOW]

I heard 2007 and newer are the only ones that are safe to use E15 on.

[PB86MCSS]

Pumps will have E10 and E15 it sounds like, from what I've read...so for those of us who don't want to use E15 nor have a 2007+ (or maybe 2001-2006) vehicle, we won't see any change (unless you use E15 by mistake :goof ). I'm not for ethanol but part of the idea is to help decrease the dependence on oil I believe.