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View Full Version : 2002 Camaro SS 427 in Mineral Point 4th parade



hwystar
07-06-2004, 08:16 PM
Saw what appeared to be a 2002 SS in the parade. had fender decals saying 427 and hood scoop decal w/ 600HP (I think). Plate was LZ1 ____


sharp car, anybody's here. what's the history?

Syclone0044
07-06-2004, 10:24 PM
I've heard references to this before and unfortunately I'm gonna have to raise the :bsflag on the notion of 600HP out of a N/A small block production car, emissions legal, running 93 octane gas at best.. :rolleyes: :wtf

If you go to the "GMMG" site they only quote 400HP or so, but you're not the first one I've heard reference "600HP badges". Wonder what the story is here...

BAD LS1
07-07-2004, 09:13 AM
If you go to the "GMMG" site they only quote 400HP or so, but you're not the first one I've heard reference "600HP badges". Wonder what the story is here...

:rolf :rolf :rolf

Base ZL1's use the 400 hp LS6 replacement engine.

There is only 31 out of 69 that have the 600HP 427 (see PhaseIII)

http://www.gmmginc.net/html/zl1427_info.html

Dont know of any lawsuits for false advertisment yet against Matt Murphy, but maybe you can be the first to sue him for "I dont think its got 600hp IMO" :rolleyes:

http://home.kc.rr.com/viperdiecast/zl3.jpg

BAD LS1
07-07-2004, 09:32 AM
And more reading:

http://www.quillnewspaper.com/Mar03/a0506a1.html

http://www.viperalley.com/showflat.php?Board=talk&Number=118969

http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/113_0310_427/

GRNDNL
07-07-2004, 01:02 PM
Now on sale....... :banana

For a limited time only!...(till I can't sell anymore ;) )

600 HP packages for any make and model of automoblie, for the low, low price of $59.95 (plus 12% tax and 25% handling charge).

Feel the HP once your 600HP package is applied to your automoblie with our exclusive peel and stick adhesive. No more waiting weeks or months for that expensive Turbocharger or Supercharger when, In a matter of minutes you can have that elusive 600HP on your car.

Buy one of the first 100 packages and we will include installation for FREE......(plus a one time $25.00 shop materails fee)........

When you call make sure to ask about our new 750hp package that we're working on......... :-P

Also available in Chrome (this is an extra cost option) for those that like the Bling Bling......

Hurry, don't wait on this, once we've sold all we can sell we won't be selling anymore..... :alcoholic

Just call 1-900-DUMBASS (there is a $4.00 per minute charge on this call, minimum 15 minutes)

600hp stickers on the hood scoop...... :sgay

Yooformula
07-07-2004, 01:25 PM
I've heard references to this before and unfortunately I'm gonna have to raise the :bsflag on the notion of 600HP out of a N/A small block production car, emissions legal, running 93 octane gas at best.. :rolleyes: :wtf



Why is it so hard to believe that a 427 can make 600 hp? It came out of a production shop and has cats..... :confused

BAD LS1
07-07-2004, 01:30 PM
BWHAHAHAHAHAH OMFG!!

Where the hell do you come up with this stuff Keith??:rolf :rolf :rolf

I like the cars from a collectability stand point and they are more of an investment than a 1/4 mile bruiser.

Yeah its kinda an outrageous claim at first sight to see "600 HP" and paying another 30K to get that decal and the 427 under the hood but different strokes for different folks.

There is only one of these cars that gets regular track flogging and sees 11.4's @ 123 :wtf

BAD LS1
07-07-2004, 01:36 PM
Why is it so hard to believe that a 427 can make 600 hp? It came out of a production shop and has cats..... :confused

In theory if the engine its self made 600 FWHP it would lay down somewhere about 530ish to the wheels, i dont see anything wrong here making a 600HP claim if the cars are seen laying this 530ish # down at the wheels.

GRNDNL
07-07-2004, 02:07 PM
My GN went 10.56 @ 126 with 525 RWHP at 3700lbs.............that should be, could be, might be 600 at the flywheel...... :confused 600 sounds alittle optimistic to me or is that just chebby horse power?....

I know all about the Vinyl Decal Collector Cars, my wife drives one........ :thumbsup
We'll see in 25 years or so if theres anymore value in these....... :confused

BAD LS1
07-07-2004, 02:13 PM
I know all about the Vinyl Decal Collector Cars, my wife drives one........ :thumbsup
We'll see in 25 years or so if theres anymore value in these....... :confused

Yeah im in that same boat, mines slightly molested though making it even more usless down the road :goof

JohnnyT
07-07-2004, 02:30 PM
My GN went 10.56 @ 126 with 525 RWHP at 3700lbs.............that should be, could be, might be 600 at the flywheel...... :confused 600 sounds alittle optimistic to me or is that just chebby horse power?....

That was with slicks and a hard launch, right? What was the ZL1 running for tires and suspension setup when it ran the 11.4?? Keith's car is setup for the strip and hence should run more of a number than the "stock" ZL1 with the same or similar power... IMHO

Coming from a guy who also has a vinyl sticker mobile... :goof

BAD LS1
07-07-2004, 02:53 PM
That was with slicks and a hard launch, right? What was the ZL1 running for tires and suspension setup when it ran the 11.4?? Keith's car is setup for the strip and hence should run more of a number than the "stock" ZL1 with the same or similar power... IMHO

Coming from a guy who also has a vinyl sticker mobile... :goof

11.4 @ 123 on 18" cragar SS's with a short time in the 2.1 area looks very capable of mid tens ish with higher mph than 123 on 1.4-1.5 60's and 3600 LBS to me.

And its vinyl decal and hood scoop mobiles for us firehawk and SS owners. :goof

GRNDNL
07-07-2004, 03:36 PM
That was with slicks and a hard launch, right? What was the ZL1 running for tires and suspension setup when it ran the 11.4?? Keith's car is setup for the strip and hence should run more of a number than the "stock" ZL1 with the same or similar power... IMHO

Coming from a guy who also has a vinyl sticker mobile... :goof


I'm thinking more of the MPH figure, With 600hp I would think it should be running 126-128....... :confused

JohnnyT
07-07-2004, 03:43 PM
I'm thinking more of the MPH figure, With 600hp I would think it should be running 126-128....... :confused

True, but remember it is also a really low production $100,000+ vehicle. Maybe he wasn't pushing it all out... I'm not sure I would if it were mine.

BAD LS1
07-07-2004, 03:46 PM
True, but remember it is also a really low production $100,000+ vehicle. Maybe he wasn't pushing it all out... I'm not sure I would if it were mine.


they still have 10 bolts too yet, cant push them real hard :rolf

GRNDNL
07-07-2004, 04:39 PM
True, but remember it is also a really low production $100,000+ vehicle. Maybe he wasn't pushing it all out... I'm not sure I would if it were mine.

Mandys Firehawk is 1 of 2, Blue, MN6, 1LE, Hardtop Formulas made in 2001, I'd sell it for $100,000+ :wooo Still wouldn't stop me from running it balls out..... :-P I've got a customer with a Ferrari F-50, last time it was in the shop here he had 1800 miles on it, he runs a sticky street tire on it, the outside 2 inches on the fronts were totaly bald, that was his second set.... :thumbsup Takes a real man to drive a $600,000 car right on the edge all the time...... :)

I forgot about the 10-bolt....... :rolf :rolf :rolf

Syclone0044
07-07-2004, 06:04 PM
Why is it so hard to believe that a 427 can make 600 hp? It came out of a production shop and has cats..... :confused
Because such a high specific output N/A would typically require an extreme camshaft of the type that would exhibit poor driveability and emissions and therefore be unlikely to pass government certification for sale.. If an aftermarket shop modifies the engine, they can get away with an "All modifications are for off road use only" disclaimer, but a REAL car manufacturer cannot.

Think about it, if they can get 600HP (or 700WHP as has been suggested) out of a 427 on 93 octane pump fuel with standard driveability and emissions friendly exhaust, why aren't more people doing it? Why isn't anyone doing it, for that matter? And if they can do it, what can they get on a race fuel burning, emissions failing, race only version? 1000HP N/A? :rolleyes:

I'm not saying this car is complete hocus pocus (although the thought crosses my mind), but it does make some astonishing claims with little evidence to serve as proof to skeptical minds.

Yooformula
07-07-2004, 08:56 PM
600hp advertised on the hood would most likely indicate the flywheel rating which is about 480-510rwhp depending on whether or not its an A4 or M6. I hear what your saying about the cam profile for emmisions and what not but for the kind of money that it costs I am sure they could come up with a combo that is emmisions legal and besides I dont think they would be able to sell a vehicle that isnt emmisions legal. Just looking at someone else's combo local, his vehicle puts out close to 700 flywheel and is emmisions legal with cats on a smaller dispacement motor granted its forced induction but I would still assume that a larger engine could produce close to that kind of power as well. I could be way off base here but I really dont think that its that hard to do with that kind of money.

BAD LS1
07-07-2004, 09:15 PM
I dont have proof of any pardon on emission requirements or anything but being these cars came in such limited quanities(69) and came through as B4C cop cars, that right there makes them emmision exempt because its a "special service vehicle" (modern day COPO).

But these Phase III have lumpy ass cams in them, the #2 i drove sounded hairier than my car :confused. The only thing emmission related i seen was air injection yet and cat converters attached to the collectors of the long tubes.

The Phase I uses a drop in LS6 crate motor and the Phase II has ported heads and bigger cam in the LS6.

Dont quote me but i thing anything sold as a special service car (see police or taxi cab) do not require any emmission testing or compliance, these vehicles are treated as an "export" by EPA standards, (see COPO's of old)

Yooformula
07-07-2004, 09:44 PM
I guess I didnt think about the limited run of these perhaps exempting them from emmisions.

Prince Valiant
07-07-2004, 09:50 PM
I don't know...600hp at the flywheel doesn't seem too out of the realm of possiblities for me, although josh is correct, I doubt that it could pass emissions.

Basically what I do is just look at the cubic inches though, and multiply by 1.2 or so (I can use as low as .8 to as high as 1.35, depends on the description of the build-up if given)...that should get you close in the ball park as to what the total torque production is at the flywheel...in this case it works out to 512 ft-lbs of torque...now lets say that it made it's peak torque numbers at around 4500rpm, if not more rpm, as it likely would using a wild cam and wild heads. At least one can be very close to guessing torque numbers for virtually any motor, vs HP numbers.

Then what I do is simply take 85% of that number, in this case 435 and add 2000rpm...

Now don't get me wrong...this is a BIG generalization, but many vehicles tend to find their HP peaks around 2000rpm after their torque peaks. For some cars it's more, for some it's less...generally around 500 rpm give or take, but could be even more....

but using the above numbers we net about 538hp @ 6500rpm...now let's say that I was wrong on the torque peak and it occured at 5200rpm, then that leaves us with around 596hp@7200rpms... But you can see that the BIG error is that I don't know what rpm the HP claims are given at. It is ALOT easier to raise the BS flag if they give that....

Again, it's very general and I give alot of leeway....now if someone was to claim, as some have, that there NA 302 puts out 600hp...that's an easy raise on the BS flag as one can see that the motor would have to spin close to at least 9500rpm to actually produce those numbers

BAD LS1
07-07-2004, 10:27 PM
Were talking about cars none of us can afford. They are a collectible with a big HP claim because they have big shoes to fill wearing the ZL1 name.

These cars are not available to the general public, who care if they pass emmisions or not or what loop holes get them out of emmisions?

The soul purpose and point of these cars were to go to the exsisting owners of actual 69' ZL1 cars and are tributes to the founders of the COPO loop holes to make some really special cars in the late 60's.

End of story. :locked:

Syclone0044
07-08-2004, 01:11 AM
The point of the discussion is to examine the validity of the 600HP claim from a 427ci pump gas, emissions legal (?) naturally aspirated engine. I don't really care if it's emissions legal or not; the fact was relevant because if it is emissions legal (as would be likely if GMMG is subject to normal car manufacturer regulations), it increases the unlikelihood of this engine producing the claimed output.

That's fine if the car is produced to honor old timers or whatever, but I'm a little curious to figure out if they got swindled or not.. A hundred grand is nothing to sneeze at especially when you're buying a "600HP Supercar", I'd hope it has everything in it.

The other point is, if it's possible to get a streetable, pump gas friendly, emissions legal 600HP out of a Chevy Gen3 small block, let's find out the trick and see why more people aren't doing it.

BAD LS1
07-08-2004, 07:55 AM
No..... The point of this discussion was to answer someones questions about a ZL1 sighting, it wasnt meant for a prime oppertunity to rip it apart :rolleyes:

hwystar
07-08-2004, 10:24 AM
And more reading:

http://www.quillnewspaper.com/Mar03/a0506a1.html

http://www.viperalley.com/showflat.php?Board=talk&Number=118969

http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/113_0310_427/
Thanks for the links.

It was definitly one of these. silver w/ black (or dark blue) stripes. regardless of the validity of it's HP claim it was still a sharp, rare car. I'd never heard of these cars before and to see one in a town of 2,000 is surprising. It didn't look like an $85K vehicle to me though. IMO if you're spending that much the car should have unique styling like a Viper, not just decals. It still looks just like an SS.

And the POINT of my original post was just to report a sighting and to see if anybody knew what it might be. But you guys have fun.

BAD LS1
07-08-2004, 11:54 AM
Thanks for the links.

It was definitly one of these. silver w/ black (or dark blue) stripes. regardless of the validity of it's HP claim it was still a sharp, rare car. I'd never heard of these cars before and to see one in a town of 2,000 is surprising. It didn't look like an $85K vehicle to me though. IMO if you're spending that much the car should have unique styling like a Viper, not just decals. It still looks just like an SS.

And the POINT of my original post was just to report a sighting and to see if anybody knew what it might be. But you guys have fun.

Thanks HWYSTAR :rockwoot: More clarifaction to what the intent of what this post was about incase some have overlooked the point.

02hawk796
07-08-2004, 12:58 PM
Gee, maybe we should get a Forum titled "Sightings" or something, so people don't get confused!
err, umm...

Fugitive of the Heated Discussions Forum.

Crawlin
07-08-2004, 08:08 PM
Advertised 405hp Z06 puts out 360-370rwhp

Advertised Z06 engine in a CTS-v puts out 320rwhp


The real question is, does it matter? Alot of "advertised" numbers aren't even close. 305hp f-body vs. 345 C5 in hotrod, both automatics, funny how the f-body put out MORE rwhp, by 12 i think it was too. Regardless of whether the flywheel power can hit the mark or not, it's easier to have an even number like 600 rather than a 550 or 575 etc.. But I bet if you took those motors and put them on an engine dyno, they'd be damn close to 600hp. There has been a couple of head/cam M6 cars over the 500rwhp mark, so that's still on the stock 346 shortblock too. All in combination. And I'm sure GM has the most extensive R&D budget/tools available along with the people who helped come up with the parts.

Chris

Syclone0044
08-14-2004, 02:31 PM
After reading this I guess I can see where the 600HP figure is possible. :tomato

http://www.c5rmotorsports.com/engine.htm

The important points I noticed were all the non-LS1 parts that the engine in the link has for advantages; the C5-R racing block, the individual 8 throttle bodies, and the required 100 Octane unleaded race fuel for example. I was quite surprised to see the HP RPM was only 6200. Regardless, the engine talked about in this article is a true race motor, as to whether or not this applies to the GMMG ZL-1 Camaro, I really cannot say. But it does provide some evidence to serve as proof that 600HP can be made on a fuel injected N/A 427 small block LS-1-style motor if it's a race motor that runs on race fuel and doesn't have to pass emissions.

john96ws6
08-15-2004, 02:22 AM
Haha, I think I know who's car you guys are talking about. He is a car collector near Madison. Was it SOM? His brother works for my dad. I got second place in a local car show last week and my car lost to this one. I never got a chance to meet him. Apparently he had a nice smoke show before I showed up. :burnout Rumor has it that he recently sold the first Yenko Camaro for upwards of $1 million. He also has the second one and is working on selling that too. (I dont know if I should be giving out that info :stare ). He also has a few other cars I guess. If you guys are interested in more details about the Phase III or the rest of his collection I can try to find out.

Joe Q.
08-15-2004, 06:43 PM
http://www.camaroz28.com/articles/2002zl1/index2.shtml here's the web site for the ZL1 info I have heard of under 30 of them have 600hp but all have 427 and ran from $85,000 to almost $135,000 saw 3 for sale on e-bay last year-strickly investment value not for everyday drives many more extreme z-28's out there as well but who can afford them?