Delta 88 3800 is dead

[Al]

I was drving along the freeway when I started to hear a light ticking sound. 10 seconds later, it got very loud. I got off the freeway and it cut out at the end of the ramp/ I restarted it and managed to drve it another 1/2 mile. At this point, it was going "knack knank knack (first k is not silent)." Then a puff of smoke and it was dead.

I hope that swapping a 3800 is as easy as working on the engine its self.

[jbiscuit]

sounds like the death sounds to me. Loud knacking probably means it ate a bearing or you lost the oil pump and starved the bearings of oil etc and it froze up. Does it have gauges or just idiot lights? Does it crank or is it toast? Time for a replacement motor I think so you are on the right track there.

[Al]

Only has idiot lights. It went from no lights to a christmas tree in about 5 seconds.

Local junk yards are selling engines for $400.

Maybe I should find another cheap car.


I also just managed to get it started for a few seconds. The coolant looks like dirty mop water. The oil has water in it. Also, the insulation under the hood fluffed off above the water pump. It was not like that 3 days ago.

[Al]

I wonder if i can swap the S/C engine in this car?

[lilws6]

you would have to do some elec. work and tune the hell out of it or the pcm wouldn't know what to do with all that boost. but yea sounds like a bearing knock to me as well.

[PB86MCSS]

How many miles are on it? Engines should be plentiful in good running order but so would be complete running/driving older 3800 cars too for pretty cheap. Unless the car is pretty clean and in otherwise good shape I would have a hard time justifying the cost and work, if a motor is $400 or so. Just thinking if mine went, what I would do. This might be an obvious question but did you check to see if the balancer got loose or came off? I've heard that can happen on these with age and might cause some of your issues (besides the fluids mixing).

[theavenger333]

I wonder if i can swap the S/C engine in this car?

anything is possible. worth it? no. like said above... the thing better be pristine inside and out, and be full of new parts to even consider swapping the motor. there are early and mid 90s lesabres, olds, bonnevilles etc all over the place for 1000 or less.

[Moparjim]

Only has idiot lights. It went from no lights to a christmas tree in about 5 seconds.

Local junk yards are selling engines for $400.

Maybe I should find another cheap car.


I also just managed to get it started for a few seconds. The coolant looks like dirty mop water. The oil has water in it. Also, the insulation under the hood fluffed off above the water pump. It was not like that 3 days ago.

Are you sure its dead? I thought the 3.8 was one of the gm motors that liked to blow the intake gaskets and or actually wreck the plastic intake manifold, causing coolant to POUR into the cylinders which would explain your symptoms.

Happened to my dads buick and it was so bad when it happened that it sounded just like yours it hydro locked the cylinders the car wouldn't even turn over. New intake, gaskets, oil change and it was just fine.

[Al]

I am going to fix this car, but I am planning on replacing it in the very near future. Having it run means the difference between scrapping it for $100 or selling it for $700.


Are you sure its dead? I thought the 3.8 was one of the gm motors that liked to blow the intake gaskets and or actually wreck the plastic intake manifold, causing coolant to POUR into the cylinders which would explain your symptoms.

Happened to my dads buick and it was so bad when it happened that it sounded just like yours it hydro locked the cylinders the car wouldn't even turn over. New intake, gaskets, oil change and it was just fine.

The engine is a pre-series 1 and does not have the plastic manifold.

It was "knack"ing very loudly. I was checking the engine out a few minutes ago and found that there was almost no oil in it. I checked it a few weeks ago and it was good. As for the coolant, there is lots of oil in there. This engine also went through a gallon of coolant per tank of gas for the last 10 fills and never dripped on the ground. It also had a habbit of overheating.

I could go through and replace gaskets and hope for the best, but I found loads of local engines for under $200. My friend said the easiest way to change the engine in this car is to pull the tranny with the engine out the top, attaach new engine to tranny, and drop it all back in.


the thing better be pristine inside and out, and be full of new parts

The car is ugly as sin and the previous owner crashed it 3 or 8 times. The only new part on it is a $14 water pump, a $60 ignition module, and a $90 battery. Then again, the previous owner redid the alternator and did a complete brake job with new lines and master cylinder.

But still, can any other engine be put in there without extensive work? At this point I am simply curious.

[theavenger333]

no, the TPI 3.8 is it, unless you go DOWN in motor.

[Deggy]

I think a buddy of mine still has a built 3400 w/ built 5 speed. That could be fun.:goof

[BadAzzGTA89]

Sounds like head gasket to me did you look at the oil does it look like milky crap?
Also the labor of putting a L67 in that car to me would be a wate of time...

[Deggy]

Sounds like head gasket to me did you look at the oil does it look like milky crap?
Also the labor of putting a L67 in that car to me would be a wate of time...

I know. I was just being funny. I have no real input for this thread.

[PB86MCSS]

I don't think there would be any logical reason to put something in other than the same series 3800...since they are very reliable, plentiful and cheap especially if it is just a run of the mill car (no offense).

With the habit of overheating and going through that much coolant (yikes!) I guess what occured shouldn't be a surprise.

I haven't heard of the gaskets leaking as something common with these...the 3.1 and newer 3.4's I believe it was pretty common though.

[Al]

I don't think there would be any logical reason to put something in other than the same series 3800...since they are very reliable, plentiful and cheap especially if it is just a run of the mill car (no offense).

With the habit of overheating and going through that much coolant (yikes!) I guess what occured shouldn't be a surprise.

I haven't heard of the gaskets leaking as something common with these...the 3.1 and newer 3.4's I believe it was pretty common though.

3800s are very reliable and this is not a common issue for them. The problem is the nut behind the steering wheel. I did something to the car about 8 months ago which caused this issue on the first warm day of the year.

[PB86MCSS]

Hmm, I'm not following how a nut behind the steering wheel could cause this...just trying to picture it.

I remember you had something welded with the frame or engine cradle, IIRC.

[Al]

Hmm, I'm not following how a nut behind the steering wheel could cause this...just trying to picture it.

I remember you had something welded with the frame or engine cradle, IIRC.

Nope. That had no side effects.

A 3800 takes a few miles to warm up in the winter. I made use of some spare cardboard boxes to keep the radiator partially blocked. This worked very well at keeping engine temps higher. The issue is that the nut-behind-the-steering-wheel forgot to remove said cardboard from in front of the radiator before the change of seasons gave us a very hot day.

[Al]

I changed the oil and added water to the radiator and now it runs like normal!

I am delighted that it runs, but not sure about what I should do about it next.

[Al]

Update:
The engine runs quietly, but feels rough. This is nothing new, but it is worse than normal.

Here is what i am trying to figure out...
How does oil get to the rockers on this engine?

I had thought that there was a pressurized line in the block that goes to the top end (think ohc engines). My friend just told me that the oil goes up through the pushrods.

If this is the case, how is oil getting into my coolant?

[Moparjim]

Update:
The engine runs quietly, but feels rough. This is nothing new, but it is worse than normal.

Here is what i am trying to figure out...
How does oil get to the rockers on this engine?

I had thought that there was a pressurized line in the block that goes to the top end (think ohc engines). My friend just told me that the oil goes up through the pushrods.

If this is the case, how is oil getting into my coolant?

Most likely head gasket like others have said. That would explain the burning coolant, and oil gets in the coolant as well depending on how its blown. There's definitely oil, water, and combustion all being sealed between the block and the heads. I am not a GM 3.8l expert but in most every pushrod engine I have seen the pushrods only oil the rocker tip where they seat, there are still oil passages to send oil up to the head and spray on the rest of the rockers, or oil through the shaft or stud they mount to or whatever. The other remote possibility would be a cracked block or head, cracked in one of those passages. I would bet its just a gasket though.

Compression and leak down test it, run it with the radiator cap off and the radiator or reservoir or whatever full and watch for bubbles in the coolant caused by combustion gases getting into the coolant.

[BadAzzGTA89]

Update:
The engine runs quietly, but feels rough. This is nothing new, but it is worse than normal.

Here is what i am trying to figure out...
How does oil get to the rockers on this engine?

I had thought that there was a pressurized line in the block that goes to the top end (think ohc engines). My friend just told me that the oil goes up through the pushrods.

If this is the case, how is oil getting into my coolant?


Sounds like head gasket to me did you look at the oil does it look like milky crap?
The oil does come up through the push rods.

Pull the spark plugs and see how those look that will more than likely tell you what cylinder is having the problem .

[Al]

Most likely head gasket like others have said. That would explain the burning coolant, and oil gets in the coolant as well depending on how its blown. There's definitely oil, water, and combustion all being sealed between the block and the heads. I am not a GM 3.8l expert but in most every pushrod engine I have seen the pushrods only oil the rocker tip where they seat, there are still oil passages to send oil up to the head and spray on the rest of the rockers, or oil through the shaft or stud they mount to or whatever. The other remote possibility would be a cracked block or head, cracked in one of those passages. I would bet its just a gasket though.

Compression and leak down test it, run it with the radiator cap off and the radiator or reservoir or whatever full and watch for bubbles in the coolant caused by combustion gases getting into the coolant.

My friend pulled the oil filler cap (my hand is not strong enough for this yet) while the engine was running and there was no oil flowing around inside the valve cover. Everything had a light coating of oil and that was it. I'm used to the top of the head being flooded with oil. Is this normal?

We also kept an eye on the coolant. There were no bubbles oir oil in the coolant after we ran it for 30 minutes. We also found that the car needed about 2 gallons of water in it. I topped it off about 7 days ago. The overflow had a thin film of oil on it and was also full before I topped the radiator off.

As for the leakdown test, that is a fairly involved process. Right now, a head gasket set is $140 at the local parts supply stores. I found a 150k engine with a 1 year warranty for $180 at Calumet.


The oil does come up through the push rods.

Pull the spark plugs and see how those look that will more than likely tell you what cylinder is having the problem .

Didn't even think about that.


Any temporary fixes coming to mind?

[PB86MCSS]

I would just do headgaskets....a PITA and some time, sure...but easier than an engine swap and still cheaper overall. When it overheated the first time it sounds like one gaveway, causing the symptoms you have had until it didn't run. Overheating, eating coolant, coolant mixed in the oil. On the other hand the block or a head could be cracked due to the overheating like Moparjim said...and the tests he mentioned as well will help to start. How many miles on this motor? A junkyard motor is no guarantee either, although I'm sure it would be ok especially being a 3800.

[Al]

I would just do headgaskets....a PITA and some time, sure...but easier than an engine swap and still cheaper overall. When it overheated the first time it sounds like one gaveway, causing the symptoms you have had until it didn't run. Overheating, eating coolant, coolant mixed in the oil. On the other hand the block or a head could be cracked due to the overheating like Moparjim said...and the tests he mentioned as well will help to start. How many miles on this motor? A junkyard motor is no guarantee either, although I'm sure it would be ok especially being a 3800.

The car has 137k on it. I like that the junkyard engine has a warranty.

BTW- i keep reading that i need to replace the head bolts for the gasket change. it this necessary?

[PB86MCSS]

I'm not sure if it's much different on the 3800, when I did a 305 years ago I just re-used the stockers, never had an issue. I think I read it was recommended to replace but that very well depends on the motor and maybe how you intend to use it.

A couple helpful sites I've found for the 3800 in the past few years:

http://pontiacbonnevilleclub.com/forum/index.php

www.lesabret.com

[Al]

My friend came over again and we spent a good 4 hours checking over the car and test driving it.

Spark Plugs:
They all look good. They had that light white coating and no oil.

We checked the oil:
No water at all.
The oil seemed a bit thin and it dripped from the bottom of the dip stck (unusual). Then again, we really didn't change all of the oil because of the way the car was parked. If 1/2 quart of old oil remained in the car, will it mess up the new oil? The oil has 10 miles on it.

We checked the coolant:
Nothing that would indicate oil in the coolant.
The overflow still has a film (i did not empty it from earlier). We took time to figure out what the film was and it isn't oil. I don't know what it could be.

Leak Discovered:
The radiator leaks coolant, but very slowly and only when hot (1 drip/ second).

The Test Drive (excitement ensues!):
After checking the oil, coolant and plugs, we went for a 10 mile drive.
The car is a bit rougher at idle and slightly hesitates for the first 5 feet when you go from a stop. It also has an unusual viberation when you roll to 50-70% throttle at speeds above 55 mph (no downshift, stays in o/d).
The "temp" and "check engine" lights flashed for less than a second during the driive. It happened after some hard braking and a sharp right turn. I then drove the final 2 miles home.

We got the car in the drive and left it idleing so we could check for leaks: none.
My friend then put it in drve and put his foot on the brakes. He throttled it lightly a few times and found nothing. Next, he pegged the gas. About 4 seconds later, the radiator cap flew off and produced a 20 foot geyser of steam and water. We later found out that a third person had tried to put the radiator cap on, was unable to get it in there, and failed to properly mention this to us.


Next Up:
Top off coolant (so far, all water), replace cap properly, and check for leaks after proper warm up.

Head gaskets might be good. Could be that manifold gasket. I will first fix the radiator. If coolant still goes missing, I'll fix the manifold gasket. If coolant goes missing after this, I will replace the engine. I do not want to deal with head gaskets.