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View Full Version : the death of the dmax



SmokinRAM114
05-10-2010, 12:07 PM
:goof:rolf well not so much but this going to change the diesel performance market!! :wooo stand alone ecm for cummins common rails.

http://www.destroked.com/zeus/index.shtml

Prince Valiant
05-10-2010, 12:30 PM
wow! that's is cool,

how much does that run?

but the music in the vid leaves much to be desiered, lol.

SmokinRAM114
05-10-2010, 12:53 PM
haha.. its around $3,800 but all the shit it gives u ur going to spend close to that anyway. a good chip "stack" is around $1k plus a data logger $1-2k so its right in the ball park. bosch introduced a limited stand alone late last year and was $9k! yea, needless to say only the "big guys" have purchased it and said u need to be a scientist to run it.

Anakonda69
05-10-2010, 05:18 PM
wow. that is damn expensive.

SmokinRAM114
05-10-2010, 11:20 PM
wow. that is damn expensive.

gotta pay to play..this obviously isnt for everyone... i had $1200 just in chips and tuners in my truck and was limited.. that is unlimited! i would have dished out that if i could have kept the vp44 and 100% daily drivability!

Russ Jerome
05-11-2010, 09:34 AM
Not outa line at all when you look at true standalone systems with datalog output and expandable gauge direct hookup. If your vehicle is'nt a GM product (free online cals) $4000 for plug and play looks tempting compared to desoldering OE computers, soldering in chip sockets and swapping countless reburns until you find one that is just "ok".

nismodave
05-11-2010, 10:19 AM
So is the tuning of Diesels that complex, that someone has not made something like this before? And its so expensive?

Or has there just not been the demand?

Anakonda69
05-11-2010, 02:22 PM
so this will give cummins owners similiar options to what efi does for us d-max guys?

Russ Jerome
05-13-2010, 02:11 PM
So is the tuning of Diesels that complex, that someone has not made something like this before? And its so expensive?

Or has there just not been the demand?

Its electronics (Cummins) platform doesnt lend well to remapping, this is a complete ECM replacement right down to elaborate injector drivers and enough programing to run a dozen of our gas powerd cars.

When I reprogram Cummins' or simply update them I can literaly go to lunch while the process grabs info, sends it off and downloads it. This would apear to be an instant update.

The inline 6 by design is superior, if they did there homework you will probably see yuppies sending driveshafts across traffic lanes at freeway speed ;)

Yeehaw
05-13-2010, 08:05 PM
EFI is like 700 bucks ain't it?

Anakonda69
05-13-2010, 08:39 PM
dyno tuning for efi live at hucksdorf is $500.

SmokinRAM114
05-13-2010, 11:36 PM
dyno tuning for efi live at hucksdorf is $500.

for the equilivilant efi live dmax program its around 2k. thats for the unlimited tuning program.. that $500 at hd gets u there tune, but nothing else. u dont own the program and no data logger. so everytime u change something u gota pay another 500 for a retune by them.

SmokinRAM114
05-14-2010, 11:05 AM
Also with the tuning capabilities of the zues i will NOT be surprised to see a 40mpg+ 1 ton from this!

nitrous
06-01-2010, 09:32 AM
I prefer my EFI Live.

WhatsADSM
06-01-2010, 09:45 AM
Man the diesel guys get raped hard. IMO $3700 seems like A LOT for a standalone. P-N-P or not.

But hey it sounds like it is the first of its kind so they can charge almost anything they want. I'm sure eventually it will get cheaper.

Anakonda69
06-01-2010, 12:34 PM
too bad more diesel guys aren't smarter to just buy gm's from the get go. lol

SmokinRAM114
06-01-2010, 05:53 PM
Man the diesel guys get raped hard. IMO $3700 seems like A LOT for a standalone. P-N-P or not.

But hey it sounds like it is the first of its kind so they can charge almost anything they want. I'm sure eventually it will get cheaper.

have u ever looked into the price of big stuff 3 or equivilant? this is pretty much the same thing. ur not "reflashing" this is a entire new ecm.

WhatsADSM
06-01-2010, 06:20 PM
have u ever looked into the price of big stuff 3 or equivilant? this is pretty much the same thing. ur not "reflashing" this is a entire new ecm.

I VERY aware of the ecu offerings out there. :thumbsup

Have you ever looked at the price of the AEM EMS? De facto standard in the import world and I don't think there is a single PNP ECU that is more than $2000.

IIRC even the fairly high priced BS3 is still under $2500 IIRC for the GM LSx PNP versions.

$3700 is a lot of money for a PNP ECU. Like I said if they are the only option in the marketplace then they can get away with charging it. But that will only work until their competitors realize there is TONS of margin and they can make a equivalent/similar product for less money.

emptypockets
06-06-2010, 05:44 AM
I prefer my EFI Live.

You know, i have a pretty good amount of experience with both EFI and HP tuners and I have to say that im not a fan of EFI. HP tuners just has such a better layout and is much more user friendly. EFI is pushed very heavily in the diesel community though, unsure why. Seems to be a far inferior product in my eyes. If you ever have a chance to us HP you may never pick up that EFI handheld again! :thumbsup

Dr.Buick
06-08-2010, 01:57 PM
have u ever looked into the price of big stuff 3 or equivilant? this is pretty much the same thing. ur not "reflashing" this is a entire new ecm.
incase you did not know. Murray (whatadsm) can make this box if he likes. He told fast how to fix there XIM. He is BY FAR the smartest guy on BCM when it comes to this stuff. ITs his JOB.

Need Traction contol he can make it
Need NOS control he can make it
Need coil on plug for a engine he can make it
He is the man

Monstr913
06-08-2010, 03:34 PM
You know, i have a pretty good amount of experience with both EFI and HP tuners and I have to say that im not a fan of EFI. HP tuners just has such a better layout and is much more user friendly. EFI is pushed very heavily in the diesel community though, unsure why. Seems to be a far inferior product in my eyes. If you ever have a chance to us HP you may never pick up that EFI handheld again! :thumbsup

hp tuners is gauged more for gas application and efi live is more for diesel they both work on either or but the tuning is better for one and not the other...i've seen efi and hp tables and there almost identical from what i've seen...once i get my truck back i plan to go with efi live as im not sure my other tuner will be enough anymore

emptypockets
06-08-2010, 06:51 PM
hp tuners is gauged more for gas application and efi live is more for diesel they both work on either or but the tuning is better for one and not the other...i've seen efi and hp tables and there almost identical from what i've seen...once i get my truck back i plan to go with efi live as im not sure my other tuner will be enough anymore

To comment on the bold part of your response. They reason that HP tuners is "guaged" towards gas and EFI towards diesel is because that is the way they are marketed. EFI was marketed to the Diesel guys and HP to the gas guys. Both tuners are able to tune the exact same parameters so neither is actually a better tool for changing the tune on a diesel or a gasser. The ability to change the tune is the same with either product. Thats the bottom line on that.

As far as having more options for live datalogging and how user friendly the software is though, HP tuners wins hands down and IMO is a much better tuning tool.

Im currently on my 3rd Dmax truck. Ive had a LLY, LBZ, and now im on a LMM and will be purchasing a LML as soon as they hit the lots. The LLY and LBZ I tuned using EFI. Then after talking with some people who owned HP tuners I was very easily persuaded to switch after seeing how much easier it is to work with. So far I have used HP on the LBZ before I sold it and the current LMM truck as well as quite a few of my co-workers trucks with great results. I will never use EFI again and if you would like to buy mine from me we could work somthing out.

Take a look at HP before you pull the trigger on EFI, its cheaper as well.

WickedSix
06-08-2010, 07:15 PM
it was originally developed for gas applications then was brought over to diesel and vice versa for EFI live. EFI Live has better support and marketing for the duramax....its like vhs vs. beta...it may have been technologically better but people didnt buy it and it died. its a popularity contest. SInce EFI live was out first it has a TON more available tunes

emptypockets
06-08-2010, 08:07 PM
it was originally developed for gas applications then was brought over to diesel and vice versa for EFI live. EFI Live has better support and marketing for the duramax....its like vhs vs. beta...it may have been technologically better but people didnt buy it and it died. its a popularity contest. SInce EFI live was out first it has a TON more available tunes

I will agree that it has better "marketing" for the duramax as the owners of EFI are supporting vendors on many diesel based websites but as far as better support, that is a wash between the two. EFI definitly has more available cookie cutter tunes available though, this is true. But do you really trust someone elses tune in your 40K plus truck? I wouldnt, every aftermarket part combination is going to react different to it. So unless you plan to just use someone elses claimed "safe" tune, HP and EFI will both get the job done. It really comes down to personal preference.

And since I did comment on genaric tunes and I dont want tuners such as bullydog or PPE being thrown in my face as far as them being safe on peoples trucks regardless of other mods. These handhelds go through a serious amount of R&D and are not pushing the trucks to there ragged edge. They are tuned to run within safe parameters so that you dont melt your engine down. Now your transmission on the other hand... :rolf Say goodbye!

WickedSix
06-09-2010, 08:00 AM
Its hard to kill the allison.... the truck above put down ~500 rwhp ~1000 ft-lb with the box sotck transmission that has been drag raced sled pulled...and just generally beat the piss outta... i wouldn't of believed just how resilant they were if i hadn't seen it myself.

As to the tunes I wouldn't trust joe blow who wrote a tune and posted it on the internet for free. I would however trust the guys who have put countless hours into their own tunes who have had similar combinations in pullin and racing. The unfortunate thing is PPE hot+2 has beat every other tune out there for a stock turbo stock internal truck whether it was hpt or efi live from what I've seen. So why would you buy either EFI Live or hptuner if you are using a stock truck and not trying to get it to the ragged edge?

emptypockets
06-09-2010, 06:07 PM
Last thing I want to do is get into an argument here with someone I dont know as im not the type to cause turbulence but 500rwhp in front of stock allison is not the norm. If you go over to dieselplace.com you will find that just about everyone starts to have trans issues at about 100rwhp over stock power and if someone were over there flapping there gums about a 500rwhp truck with a stock trans racing or pulling they would get laughed off the board. Could it be a factory freak, sure sounds like it since its legit but its not somthing that seems to occur to anyone else that ive ever talked to. All three of the dmax trucks ive had were purchased new and all three ate the stock transmissions at about 450rwhp. Ive become quite good at rebuilding them! (with suncoast parts, makes a ROCK solid trans). 500rwhp is very easy to reach with these trucks, but as ive learned there are some serious weak links. The stock transmission and the pistons/rings are a couple.

PPE is a great product, no doubt. But ill stick with the ability to taylor my tune to my liking over a cookie cutter tune. Not to mention I can and do make way more power with HP.

WickedSix
06-09-2010, 08:54 PM
eh our trucks run gale banks tunes ne way

emptypockets
06-10-2010, 05:10 AM
eh our trucks run gale banks tunes ne way

Although Banks products dont make a shit ton of power, they are very well designed and probably have more R&D time into them then any other product. I know quite a few guys that are very happy with there banks products. :thumbsup

nitrous
06-10-2010, 12:09 PM
You know, i have a pretty good amount of experience with both EFI and HP tuners and I have to say that im not a fan of EFI. HP tuners just has such a better layout and is much more user friendly. EFI is pushed very heavily in the diesel community though, unsure why. Seems to be a far inferior product in my eyes. If you ever have a chance to us HP you may never pick up that EFI handheld again! :thumbsup

I've owned my HP Tuners for 5+ years as well.

Anakonda69
06-10-2010, 12:21 PM
i like my ppe. but the support for efi live in the duramax market is so abundant it would be hard not to go that route.

WickedSix
06-10-2010, 12:35 PM
i forgot about the bonus of the dsp 2 or 5 switches which allows selectable tune on the fly whereas hpt has a big ole goose egg in that category

BAD LS1
06-10-2010, 01:00 PM
EVERY vehicle i encountered tuned with EFI needs to get the PCM flashed back to stock by a dealer before HP tuners can even get into it. It corrupts the PCM with a really weird OS that nothing else can do shit with, pretty gay.

WickedSix
06-10-2010, 01:36 PM
Just as an aside, how many of those were gassers? I haven't seen too many people embracing EFI live for them.

BAD LS1
06-10-2010, 04:29 PM
None were duramax trucks, but ive gotten the pleasure of 5 and counting since ive started on gas vehicles that needed the flash back to stock after EFI live treatment. Not sure if its the same for the d-trucks, but dont they run a Bosch PCM too?

emptypockets
06-10-2010, 05:44 PM
None were duramax trucks, but ive gotten the pleasure of 5 and counting since ive started on gas vehicles that needed the flash back to stock after EFI live treatment. Not sure if its the same for the d-trucks, but dont they run a Bosch PCM too?

It is the exact same for the Dmax trucks. Same problem will occur. This is yet another reason I do not like EFI.

Anakonda69
06-10-2010, 08:05 PM
most dmax trucks that go as far as needing efi live most likely won't ever need to go back to stock pcm. i think as far as d-max's go efi's pro's far outweigh the con's.

lilws6
06-10-2010, 09:09 PM
whats a ppe? i'll probably be looking at a programer soon. i was looking at getting an edge just since my buddies got one and i like what it shows on the screen especially when the speedos crap out. :( but is there something better for the money or would the edge be fine for me i don't need to do a stand alone ide just fuck shit up and make it smoke alot :goof

lilws6
06-10-2010, 09:15 PM
nvm googled it i like the on the fly thing of the edge tho

Anakonda69
06-10-2010, 09:34 PM
ppe is way cleaner tuning then an edge but just do some research and see what works best for you.

Monstr913
06-10-2010, 11:17 PM
i ran and edge on my truck was nice for tuning on fly. then i stacked a predator on top of that and was better. then i bought my first PPE way cleaner and truck handled a higher tune from that one tuner then the double stack...as far as efi being better then a PPE, thats debatable in stock application...i have a good friend that ran his truck on dyno with a PPE Hot+2 E.T. vs. a custom EFI (made by McRat racing) and the PPE made more power only by about 10 hp, but still...also i got a friend with efi and we have almost identical mods and at Huckstorf Dyno last fall i made 508hp 1003trq (stock trans) and buddy with efi made 516hp 985trq (iirc,stock trans as well) and that was a custom tune made just to try and beat me...now if you got a full built motor custom tuning all the way, but with stock turbo and internals your pretty limited as to what it will make/handle...as for anyone that doesn't believe what my stock allision has been put through i will gladly show you 3 dyno sheets proving it and video from GLD so you can hear what it did...i speak past tense as i will have my truck bad tomorrow from a full trans build

Monstr913
06-10-2010, 11:25 PM
oh and as far as being laughed off the boards yea for stupid people that dont listen to people smarter then them...it took me a long time to get my trans to hold the power as well as it did, remember "Reading is Fundamental"...i ran 14.06 this year with myself and a friend in truck and a full tank of fuel with no weight reduction, and my crap ass "cookie cutter" tuner

emptypockets
06-11-2010, 05:16 AM
Glad you upgraded your trans! :thumbsup I fully believe the power it put down, i had gone down the PPE road myself at a point in time. They make a great handheld. Im still AMAZED that your stock trans has survived this long though!

WickedSix
06-11-2010, 07:51 AM
woulda lasted even longer if the dam cooler line wouldn't of plugged up...

Anakonda69
06-11-2010, 12:21 PM
i told him the cooler was clogged. lol

Monstr913
06-11-2010, 04:42 PM
well thats what i assumed as well seeing as it hasn't been that overly hot...but i got a call today when i left work the radiator was right but fittings were wrong so jim was machining em down to fit said "it happens all the time, never had any problems with custom parts...im not leaving till this thing is done, its been here to long"...the stock trans never did me any wrong handled the best it could with everything i threw at it, to some point i wanted to find the "breaking point" so say that i completely killed an allison.

i still believe efi is way better for dmaxs then hp tuners and talked to numerous people on dieselplace.com and they have never had problems with efi...now that my trans is built i'll see what it puts down with PPE and then ill stack the edge on that and see what it does, know people that have done it and was alright.