UAW Sues GM for 450 million

[BOSS LX]

Not Good!

http://www.leftlanenews.com/uaw-sues-gm-for-450-million-over-pension-fund.html

[TheRX7Project]

Fuck the UAW

[Prince Valiant]

So they're suing themselves (17.5%) and the rest of the U.S. (60%)?

[PureSound15]

So they're suing themselves (17.5%) and the rest of the U.S. (60%)?

Touché

[BR3W CITY]

ugh. This might sound assanine but why in the world can't this fucking uaw just be disbanded? I understood the concept at one point, but all they are doing now is just making things worse.

Most of those workers never deserved the bloated wages they earned, and all they want is more. Pensions, benefits etc... ANYONE TELL ME WHAT THE FUCK THEY EVER DID TO DESERVE IT!

[Prince Valiant]

ANYONE TELL ME WHAT THE FUCK THEY EVER DID TO DESERVE IT!Yes. They got someone to agree to a deal.

It's people right to freely associate, no doubt. Not a big fan of "closed shop" type unions, but if someone agrees to higher only UAW workers, then that's on them for doing so.

[wrath]

I support low wages for everyone except me. The goof that carries around $2k in tools that does HVAC is worth about $8.50/hr. The electrician that puts way too many wires in a junction box is worth about $9.00/hr. The plumber is clearly worth about $9.50/hr because he has to touch poop once in a while. Mortgage servicers are worth about $25k/year since all they do is shuffle papers around and waste time. Any clown can do that with about 80 hours of training. And they don't deserve an hourly rate because I don't care how long it takes them to get it done, that's all they're worth. If they don't like it, they can take their "skills" elsewhere.

Bank tellers can make minimum fscking wage since even robots can do what they do.


My point is that it's only the have-nots that piss and moan about unions. Further, just about anyone can do 85% of any job with a couple weeks of on-the-job training.

I think it's amusing that a journeyman electrician makes anywhere near what I make--and I went to college for being an electrical engineer. And I did an apprenticeship for a while, so I do have some experience with it.

I suspect that you'll see all skilled and unskilled jobs take a beating as the race to the bottom continues. There is no reason why a journeyman electrician should make MORE money than a fully ASE Certified technician. It's ridiculous that a mechanic that went to school, has $40-50k tied up in tools, and passed a bunch of difficult tests and re-certifies every five years makes $40k/year and often works 100hr pay periods getting no overtime whereas a journeyman electrician makes $60k/year and gets paid egregiously after 80hr pay periods. Mechanics used to be paid pretty decent so I'm willing to bet any other skilled labor where an individual uses their hands will be next.

[PureSound15]

Bank tellers can make minimum fscking wage since even robots can do what they do.

lol

[Prince Valiant]

My point is that it's only the have-nots that piss and moan about unions. :confused

[Plum Crazy]

Fuck the UAW

I can only hope you do not loose your pension.

[TheRX7Project]

I support low wages for everyone except me. The goof that carries around $2k in tools that does HVAC is worth about $8.50/hr. The electrician that puts way too many wires in a junction box is worth about $9.00/hr. The plumber is clearly worth about $9.50/hr because he has to touch poop once in a while. Mortgage servicers are worth about $25k/year since all they do is shuffle papers around and waste time. Any clown can do that with about 80 hours of training. And they don't deserve an hourly rate because I don't care how long it takes them to get it done, that's all they're worth. If they don't like it, they can take their "skills" elsewhere.

Bank tellers can make minimum fscking wage since even robots can do what they do.


My point is that it's only the have-nots that piss and moan about unions. Further, just about anyone can do 85% of any job with a couple weeks of on-the-job training.

I think it's amusing that a journeyman electrician makes anywhere near what I make--and I went to college for being an electrical engineer. And I did an apprenticeship for a while, so I do have some experience with it.

I suspect that you'll see all skilled and unskilled jobs take a beating as the race to the bottom continues. There is no reason why a journeyman electrician should make MORE money than a fully ASE Certified technician. It's ridiculous that a mechanic that went to school, has $40-50k tied up in tools, and passed a bunch of difficult tests and re-certifies every five years makes $40k/year and often works 100hr pay periods getting no overtime whereas a journeyman electrician makes $60k/year and gets paid egregiously after 80hr pay periods. Mechanics used to be paid pretty decent so I'm willing to bet any other skilled labor where an individual uses their hands will be next.

Sorry, I disagree wholeheartedly. If you got a job where you make less money than someone less skilled than you, you're the idiot, not him. It's never too late for a career change!

I drive forklift, and I make roughly $40k/yr (non-union). If I knew someone working at McDonalds for $45k/yr then you bet your ass I'd jump on that bandwagon.

When I was a residential electrician helper I made roughly $25-30k/yr, had a couple hundred dollars worth of tools and equipment, and spent a year in school for roughly a grand. My lead guys were making what I make now, busting their ass and spending way more on tools. Not to mention that when there's no work, there's no pay (and, sometimes, no more job, which was why I got out of the trades in the first place).

The wages and cost of living are plain ridiculous in this country... there's no reason why my girlfriend's mom's house is worth $200k, or why the house my parents bought in '85 for $38k sold for $90k in 2001. I know wages sure as hell didn't go up 115%! There's no basis for any kind of monetary fluxuations anymore. Wages keep staying the same while the price of shit keeps going up and up.

[TheRX7Project]

I can only hope you do not loose your pension.

I don't have a pension, I have a 401(k), with my own money put away for my own future, instead of dragging the future of my company down the tubes so I can live it up.

[Prince Valiant]

I can only hope you do not loose your pension.Yeah, the whole pension thing is a big reason companies struggle....the whole "let's pay someone not to be productive..." aspect seems to not work out too well actually. :goof

My company actually does offer a pension...it's nice, but I don't plan on it being around when I retire. Save for my retirement individually, and what pension/social security I get will just be bonus.

[Al]

I suspect that you'll see all skilled and unskilled jobs take a beating as the race to the bottom continues. There is no reason why a journeyman electrician should make MORE money than a fully ASE Certified technician. It's ridiculous that a mechanic that went to school, has $40-50k tied up in tools, and passed a bunch of difficult tests and re-certifies every five years makes $40k/year and often works 100hr pay periods getting no overtime whereas a journeyman electrician makes $60k/year and gets paid egregiously after 80hr pay periods. Mechanics used to be paid pretty decent so I'm willing to bet any other skilled labor where an individual uses their hands will be next.

Then work on Audis.

[Al]

Yeah, the whole pension thing is a big reason companies struggle....the whole "let's pay someone not to be productive..." aspect seems to not work out too well actually. :goof

My company actually does offer a pension...it's nice, but I don't plan on it being around when I retire. Save for my retirement individually, and what pension/social security I get will just be bonus.

Is there even a solid guarantee that they will be around till you die?

Pensions were nice for companies when people died 5 years after retirement.

[Silver86]

Fuck the UAW

.

[LEWETHETIGER73]

So does this mean that GM is going to be saved one more time by Obama? To be perfectly honest, after GM dumped the Pontiac line I feel that GM can go suck a big fat one and fall to the wayside. I would rather own a motorcycle with square wheels then buy a new GM. Ford here I come.

[turbogarrett]

I support low wages for everyone except me. The goof that carries around $2k in tools that does HVAC is worth about $8.50/hr. The electrician that puts way too many wires in a junction box is worth about $9.00/hr. The plumber is clearly worth about $9.50/hr because he has to touch poop once in a while. Mortgage servicers are worth about $25k/year since all they do is shuffle papers around and waste time. Any clown can do that with about 80 hours of training. And they don't deserve an hourly rate because I don't care how long it takes them to get it done, that's all they're worth. If they don't like it, they can take their "skills" elsewhere.

Bank tellers can make minimum fscking wage since even robots can do what they do.


My point is that it's only the have-nots that piss and moan about unions. Further, just about anyone can do 85% of any job with a couple weeks of on-the-job training.

I think it's amusing that a journeyman electrician makes anywhere near what I make--and I went to college for being an electrical engineer. And I did an apprenticeship for a while, so I do have some experience with it.

I suspect that you'll see all skilled and unskilled jobs take a beating as the race to the bottom continues. There is no reason why a journeyman electrician should make MORE money than a fully ASE Certified technician. It's ridiculous that a mechanic that went to school, has $40-50k tied up in tools, and passed a bunch of difficult tests and re-certifies every five years makes $40k/year and often works 100hr pay periods getting no overtime whereas a journeyman electrician makes $60k/year and gets paid egregiously after 80hr pay periods. Mechanics used to be paid pretty decent so I'm willing to bet any other skilled labor where an individual uses their hands will be next.

There aren't many journeyman electricians who are working 40 hour weeks right now. I agree that some union electricians are overpaid for what they do, but there are guys who are definetley worth it.

I love the electrical engineers point of view, many know everything.
How bout I put you in a service van and see how you do troubleshooting some motor control circuits or some of the many problems we have to fix on a daily basis? My hunch is you and your degree would not make it, even after your couple weeks of on the job training.

Electrical engineers can be thrown in the same boat as any other job. Some do an excellent job and some have no clue how to apply their textbooks to the real world.

Fwiw the milwaukee area electrical union only has about 30% market share vs. nonunion. If they push for a big contract this summer expect that # to drop even more.

What does this have to do with the uaw anyway?

[BR3W CITY]

To be perfectly honest, after GM dumped the Pontiac line I feel that GM can go suck a big fat one and fall to the wayside.

They dumped Pontiac for the same reason they dumped olds, there isn't a need for mulitple divisions of 1 company to sell basically the same product....not to mention that pontiac didn't really have anything noteworthy.

[That_Guy]

I can only hope you do not loose your pension.

pensions are lost causes...

401k matching is where its at. My work use to match up to 6% but when the bubble burst on the housing market they took a break. Doesn't mean I'm not paying in with my own money. Its my retirement not my employers. Frankly they dont owe me shit. They gave me a job. I owe them by showing up to work and doing my job.

[DurtyKurty]

I love the engineers point of view, many know everything.

:thumbsup

Edited to be more generally accurate.

[TheRX7Project]

pensions are lost causes...

401k matching is where its at. My work use to match up to 6% but when the bubble burst on the housing market they took a break. Doesn't mean I'm not paying in with my own money. Its my retirement not my employers. Frankly they dont owe me shit. They gave me a job. I owe them by showing up to work and doing my job.

This. And this is exactly the problem with unions... the idea that the company "owes you" anything is completely wrong. They don't owe you a damn thing- not a job, not benefits, and not a cushy retirement.

[BAD LS1]

:thumbsup

Originally Posted by turbogarrett
I love the engineers point of view, many know everything.

Edited to be more generally accurate.

Amen to that!

[WhatsADSM]

:thumbsup

Edited to be more generally accurate.

No shit. Those cocky bastards! They wouldn't know real life if it hit them in the face.

[BAD LS1]

No shit. Those cocky bastards! They wouldn't know real life if it hit them in the face.

In rare occasion there are some that have actual real world smarts, you yourself are probably one of the elite. But i work with many that i cant believe are getting paid to do what they do, and its their techs that work under them that actually solve all the design issues and make the product work, while the head engineer dude takes all the credit while keeping the emminence front that their 100k in schooling is why things "just work":rolf

But then again im just some asshole w/o a degree in anything except bullshit:goof

[Al]

But then again im just some asshole w/o a degree in anything except bullshit:goof

In some situations, I agree that talent is no longer given the proper regard that it shoud.

[Karps TA]

In rare occasion there are some that have actual real world smarts, you yourself are probably one of the elite. But i work with many that i cant believe are getting paid to do what they do, and its their techs that work under them that actually solve all the design issues and make the product work, while the head engineer dude takes all the credit while keeping the emminence front that their 100k in schooling is why things "just work":rolf

But then again im just some asshole w/o a degree in anything except bullshit:goof


:rolf Hey is that place hiring? :rolf

450 Mil isn't really that much money in the big scheme of things. This is one of those BS lawsuits where the only ones who win will be the lawyers.

[BAD LS1]

:rolf Hey is that place hiring? :rolf

450 Mil isn't really that much money in the big scheme of things. This is one of those BS lawsuits where the only ones who win will be the lawyers.

:goof Kinda like a lawnmower lawsuit?

[Karps TA]

yeah love hearing my friends tell me about that. Great you're getting $35 and it'll probably cost me several hundred with no EVA bonus.lol

[BAD LS1]

yeah love hearing my friends tell me about that. Great you're getting $35 and it'll probably cost me several hundred with no EVA bonus.lol

Yeah i gotta card in the mail yesterday asking me to participate! BWHAHAHAHA

[Karps TA]

Thankfully my $35 will be coming from Tecumseh. lol

[LEWETHETIGER73]

They dumped Pontiac for the same reason they dumped olds, there isn't a need for mulitple divisions of 1 company to sell basically the same product....not to mention that pontiac didn't really have anything noteworthy.

AH what about the G8 GT? I remember chevy had a couple dog years as well but they didn't cut them out.

[xwing]

This was the plan from the get-go.
The Commie UAW and the Commie President conspire to take over GM from private stock owners, stealing it.
Now, GM is mainly owned by USA Gov't (us, LOL) and now the UAW has its filthy hands DIRECTLY IN YOUR PANTS...for YOUR money...to support their lavish pensions...FOREVER.

They FINALLY know it's not 1969 and GM is King of the World making MEGABILLIONS...they know GM is BROKE and can't support them, so they DESIGNED this plan specifically to get GM=UAW's fingers on the "endless" supply of GOVERNMENT bailout money, which is OUR money...at least, the 51% who even pay federal income taxes anymore.

Government workers are now ROYALTY, and the rest of us just SERFS to pay for their "Retire at 25 years/53 years old or so, 80% of your max year pay, inflation adjusted insurance" plans that NONE of the CITIZENRY have or could ever HOPE to have.

Great plan if you can GET it, I would keep it too... but it is the job of the MAJORITY of the Citizenry to NOT ALLOW such royal benefits when the whole rest of the country is cutting back and broke.

[DurtyKurty]

This was the plan from the get-go.
The Commie UAW and the Commie President conspire to take over GM from private stock owners, stealing it.
Now, GM is mainly owned by USA Gov't (us, LOL) and now the UAW has its filthy hands DIRECTLY IN YOUR PANTS...for YOUR money...to support their lavish pensions...FOREVER.

They FINALLY know it's not 1969 and GM is King of the World making MEGABILLIONS...they know GM is BROKE and can't support them, so they DESIGNED this plan specifically to get GM=UAW's fingers on the "endless" supply of GOVERNMENT bailout money, which is OUR money...at least, the 51% who even pay federal income taxes anymore.

Government workers are now ROYALTY, and the rest of us just SERFS to pay for their "Retire at 25 years/53 years old or so, 80% of your max year pay, inflation adjusted insurance" plans that NONE of the CITIZENRY have or could ever HOPE to have.

Great plan if you can GET it, I would keep it too... but it is the job of the MAJORITY of the Citizenry to NOT ALLOW such royal benefits when the whole rest of the country is cutting back and broke.

Tell us how you really feel. :rolf

[wrath]

Sorry, I disagree wholeheartedly. If you got a job where you make less money than someone less skilled than you, you're the idiot, not him. It's never too late for a career change!

Hah, that's funny. It's called "race to the bottom". Whenever there is a large labor pool wages are eroded. Contracts (and unions) smooth out the bumps. You don't get rich when times are good and you don't end up in the poor house when times are bad.


I drive forklift, and I make roughly $40k/yr (non-union). If I knew someone working at McDonalds for $45k/yr then you bet your ass I'd jump on that bandwagon.

That's all unskilled labor. So, don't worry, as time goes on there will be plenty of people hungrier and poorer than you that will do your job for less.


When I was a residential electrician helper I made roughly $25-30k/yr, had a couple hundred dollars worth of tools and equipment, and spent a year in school for roughly a grand. My lead guys were making what I make now, busting their ass and spending way more on tools. Not to mention that when there's no work, there's no pay (and, sometimes, no more job, which was why I got out of the trades in the first place).

I did the same thing when I was in college, only I did more commercial than residential. I had like nothing tied up in tools as compared to what I have in specialty automotive tools. It's not like I was doing data cable where I needed more than a qualification tester.


The wages and cost of living are plain ridiculous in this country... there's no reason why my girlfriend's mom's house is worth $200k, or why the house my parents bought in '85 for $38k sold for $90k in 2001. I know wages sure as hell didn't go up 115%! There's no basis for any kind of monetary fluxuations anymore. Wages keep staying the same while the price of shit keeps going up and up.

I've complained about this repeatedly. In 2004-2006 most of the City of Waukesha had their houses appreciating more each month than a mortgage payment. Plenty of houses selling for $140k in 2004 resold in 2006 for $180k. And in the last ten years wages have actually decreased compared to inflation.


I don't have a pension, I have a 401(k), with my own money put away for my own future, instead of dragging the future of my company down the tubes so I can live it up.

That's botched thinking. The pension is just like a 401k, only the company manages it instead of you. When your company cut out pensions to people and switched to 401ks, they sure as hell didn't raise your wages so you essentially took a pay cut. Plus, they know employees are lazy and greedy so even if they offer a match chances are they're too dumb to contribute. Plus, employers can take advantage of the tax deduction with a 401k match. This is going to be devastating over the next 30 years as no one is saving enough for retirement. You should have at least 1 times your salary in RETIREMENT savings by age 30 and at least 3.5 times your salary in RETIREMENT savings by age 40.


There aren't many journeyman electricians who are working 40 hour weeks right now. I agree that some union electricians are overpaid for what they do, but there are guys who are definetley worth it.

Good electricians are like good anything else, they're employed when times are rough. Shitty white collar people get canned or furloughed.


I love the electrical engineers point of view, many know everything.
How bout I put you in a service van and see how you do troubleshooting some motor control circuits or some of the many problems we have to fix on a daily basis? My hunch is you and your degree would not make it, even after your couple weeks of on the job training.

I won't disagree that the average electrical engineer is braindead and booksmart. However, not all of them are.

You'd be surprised how well I'd fair in a service van. It's not hard. I've probably spent more time working on 3-phase synchronous motors and control circuits (as well as PLCs and RTUs [remote telemetry units]) than the average EE punk. Can I terminate multimode fiber? Yeap. Can run a full spectrum scope and certification tester with the best of 'em. I've got a fair amount of communications experience including antennas.


Electrical engineers can be thrown in the same boat as any other job. Some do an excellent job and some have no clue how to apply their textbooks to the real world.

Can't disagree there.


This. And this is exactly the problem with unions... the idea that the company "owes you" anything is completely wrong. They don't owe you a damn thing- not a job, not benefits, and not a cushy retirement.

You should work for free then. The whole point of working somewhere is to get compensated for your talent and time. Whether it be monetarily, fringe, or retirement. Or a combination of all three. The reason things like this are offered is to retain decent employees and make sure things run smoothly. The average assembly line costs about $1m per hour it's down. Which is why moving to Mexico isn't working out too well.