CNC Router or Laser or Waterjet or ???

[PonyKiller87]

I would like to make a set of spacers for the intake manifold on my truck. I can get the aluminum stock (3" thick cast alumium plate) and I have the shape drawn into CAD (copy of the gasket)

A guy at work has a mill which is big enough to make them but he said its going to take for ever because of the size (each one is roughly 17" long and 6" wide by 3" tall)

I though about having them cut on a water jet but I've been told that the beam of water will bend over the 3" thickness so it wont be very clean.

I was also told that a laser would make a mess of it in general because of the heat and the thickness.

So my last though was have a water jet rough cut them and then go back and clean them up on a mill.

I guess I'm just looking for any ideas or help to get these things made. Below is a CAD rendering of the parts.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa255/PonyKiller87/All%20My%20Cars/K3500/Engine%20Diagrams/Spacers.jpg

[PonyKiller87]

If your curious as to why, take a look at this picture. It shows where the top half of the manifold would sit with the spacers. The TB is connected to the top half of the manifold. At stock hight it goes right over the stock short valve covers making it so that you can't install taller valve covers, which you need to run roller rockers.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa255/PonyKiller87/All%20My%20Cars/K3500/PB220058.jpg

[SSLEVO]

Are there any angles involved? I guess what i would do is cut the inside first and then strap clamp across the inside and cut the profile, with some type of hard stops so the part doesn't move x-y. I can tell you face milling the profile won't look all that clean either unless you have a very robust process. Might have to go back and sand/ polish. Overall it looks to be a costly adventure if you don't have any cnc hookups.

[indyzmike]

I would think that wire EDM would work great, but the cost might be too high. Shop around.

[DurtyKurty]

I can cut them exactly like you want them. PM me what your willing to spend on them.

[SLOWC5]

I'd offer my services but we are quite busy at work.

I'd guess 3-4 hours a piece

[PonyKiller87]

Yeah all the cuts would be perpendicular to the face of the plate, no goofy angles all just straight through.

[SSLEVO]

I would think that wire EDM would work great, but the cost might be too high. Shop around.

It sure would. He wouldn't want to see the bill though.

[PonyKiller87]

It sure would. He wouldn't want to see the bill though.

How much are we talking? Hundreds? Thousands? ???

[SSLEVO]

I haven't had anything quoted lately, it is a very slow process though. Probably would take 1+ day at 80-100 an hour shop rate. Machining would be much more cost effective for this application.

[PonyKiller87]

Yeah, Im not looking to spend that kinda money on this

[TransAm12sec]

Cast it! lol, rapid prototype(or machine it out of wood!), sand mold, and bam! Pour some 6061 into the risers.

Or Extrude it!

But seriously, I have some local contacts for EDM, waterjetting, etc I can find at work tomorrow.

[PonyKiller87]

Yeah the though of casting it had crossed my mind, but thats a hell of a lot of work.

[SSLEVO]

Well hell, i do die casting, why don't we do that? Only 100k for a die! haha

[PonyKiller87]

I was actualy thinking more along the lines of sand casting. Cheep and easy, been looking at this site fore a while now.. http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/

[TransAm12sec]

Here's what a co-worker said:

"A waterjet would cut them out but you need to realize the walls of this wouldn't be perfectly strait as the nozzle sort of brings the water to a focal point somewhere midway through the part. Final machining might be needed.

A wire edm would also do the job and would not require final machining as the surface finish superb when using most types of wire. The downside is that it will be even more expensive.

Both of these parts are going to cost... A LOT is there any way you would turn this into a weld project? The corners wouldn't be as nicely rounded but the price would drop significantly and many more places could bid on the job. your turn around time would also drop.

You could also try casting it and machining it. It appears to be doable using the cope and drag. That we can do cheaply here.

I would also go through the part again and make sure that unless you absolutely need every specific cut to no do it and leave it as a block. This part as it stands needs some serious material removal and cutting it with a water jet or Wire edm will be pricey. wire edm from 200 - 500 bucks depending on the size and using a water jet will still cost at least two Benjamin

Hope this helps"

[DurtyKurty]

You could also try casting it and machining it. It appears to be doable using the cope and drag. That we can do cheaply here.


Where do you work?

[TransAm12sec]

UWM Center for Composites. It's a metal foundry/research lab run by Pradeep Rohatgi(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pradeep_Rohatgi) focusing on Metal Matrix Composites, self healing metals, self lubricating metals, flyash, lead free castings, lightweight metals, rapid metal deposition, and more!

[PonyKiller87]

You could also try casting it and machining it. It appears to be doable using the cope and drag. That we can do cheaply here.


Not really fimilar with what a cope and drag casting is? What would you need to do it? What is the mold made out of?

[WickedSix]

Cope and Drag is a type of sand casting kevin...its what they taught us ME's at msoe :D

[DurtyKurty]

UWM Center for Composites. It's a metal foundry/research lab run by Pradeep Rohatgi(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pradeep_Rohatgi) focusing on Metal Matrix Composites, self healing metals, flyash, lead free castings, lightweight metals, rapid metal deposition, and more!

So, how would it work if I delivered a Pattern and some core boxes to you? Are we talking you could do stuff on the BCM brethren type system, or we talking like regular old shop rate stuff here?

[PonyKiller87]

So, how would it work if I delivered a Pattern and some core boxes to you? Are we talking you could do stuff on the BCM brethren type system, or we talking like regular old shop rate stuff here?

Kurt if he can do them on the "BCM brethren system" I may have you do that plastic material on the CNC, and use that to make the mold and have them cast... guess well see.

[Al]

Go to Moraine Park Technical College and have them make the part. It will probably save you some money.

[DurtyKurty]

I may have you do that plastic material on the CNC, and use that to make the mold and have them cast... guess well see.

Yeah, Keep in mind that if you have these sand cast, your going to have to make some changes to your model.

[Anakonda69]

duct tape and some cardboard? :)

[Turbo-Triumph]

that peice of wood looks like it'll do the job.. dontcha think?

honestly, IMO, i would use a milling maching if there is no angles involved.
It would take a LOOOONG time to cut that out clean, though, but YOUR labor is free..

If i were you, i'de look into possibly 'renting' a milling machine somewhere.. some shops might let you use there equiptment for money.

It would be pretty easy, too.. just get a gasket, lay it on the top of the thing and use some die-chem (think its called..) spray it on there, and use a scribe to trace it out.. then just cut the scribed line. the hardest part would be making sure both parts (you said theres 2?) are identically the same vertical size as eachother.

edit; im no expert machinist, nor do i play one at work, but i think anyone with any knowledge of a milling machine could do this pretty simply, it would just be time consuming.

[SSLEVO]

I wouldn't F with trying to manual machine the thing unless you had a bridgeport for a week. A weldment would be a disaster, much more work than cutting the billet. Edm is way too costly and the precision is not needed. Just send the step files to a few shops and have them quoted. I have worked with MD Design in Menomonee falls at my previous job.

http://www.mddesignwi.com/

He always was the low quote and does pretty good work. It's kind of a 1-3 man show so they are always looking for work. If you are curious have them quote for machining and wire. FWIW i'm a manufacturing engineer and have done quite a bit of machining in school and in trade. With an efficient setup and machine this thing shouldn't take long to cut at all

[TransAm12sec]

So, how would it work if I delivered a Pattern and some core boxes to you? Are we talking you could do stuff on the BCM brethren type system, or we talking like regular old shop rate stuff here?


We do research at a University, so we don't operate the same way as a business. It's geared more towards research from grants. I'm pretty busy until finals in may.

Do you have a deadline Kevin? Not saying I can absolutely do it, but figuring out options.


A weldment would be a disaster, much more work than cutting the billet.

Yeah, my friend said that not knowing what the part was.

[Turbo-Triumph]

I wouldn't F with trying to manual machine all

its all i know :rolf

but if he was to use a super fat drill bit and drill the majority away, he could just go back and clean the edges up with a long mill bit.

after thinking about it more, i bet on a machine like what i have at work i could rip em out 3hr's a peice maximum. unless billet is harder to mill than regular aluminum? idk wtf billit is.. just fancy or shiny i'de guess.


OP, good luck with getting the parts made.. maybe call around to a few local fab shops and see what they'de charge? i cant imagine these peices being to expensive. using an EDM or any other sort of machine (cnc etc) would be a waste ($$) on such a simple peice, but to each there own.

i guess im kind of a hack though, so.... lol

[PonyKiller87]

No real deadline on them, hopefully get them done sometime this summer.

I just ordered the valve covers yesterday, which are why I need the spacer. This will let me figure out exacly how tall the spacer needs to be.

If it goes cast, Im thinking about making it one piece with a bridge at the front and back to connect the 2 sides, still not sure on that yet though, it might make some of my plans harder in the long run.

Turbo, your question about Billet... typicaly billet is used to refer to forged metal which is harder, or more dense than cast metal. Other people seem to refer to any thing in plate form as billet. I am planning on using Cast aluminum plate which is relatively soft.

[TransAm12sec]

Send a request for quote. They're a little more on the expensive side, but they have a wire edm.

http://allistool.com/

[PonyKiller87]

The valve covers should be here tomorrow, so hopefully tomorrow night I can take a look at it and see exacly how tall I need the spacers to be.

[Al]

Can anyone do lost-foam castings?

It would be very easy to make a pattern out of white bead foam. You can use a hot wire or a scroll saw.

[TransAm12sec]

Send a request for quote to Allis Tool. They're a little on the expensive side, but they have a wire edm.

http://allistool.com/

I meant to hit edit, but I hit quote.

[realsquash]

Well I know this is my first post here, but I thought I'd offer my advice on this project. The easiest way to get these done is going to be on a CNC mill. I don't know what you're raw material is, but this is what is called a 2.5D operation. Nothing fancy going on here and this isn't a high precision part. The only thing that would take major time is if you want a mirror finish everything. That would take a high speed spindle and lots of time. If you want a part that you can paint to match your upper intake that's wasted time.

Andy

[PonyKiller87]

Yeah, CNC mill is the way that I'm currently leaning.

It doesn't need to be milled to mirror finish, I can polish it myself when I do the rest of the intake.

[PonyKiller87]

Valve covers came in. Heres a picture with one on the engine and a 1.5" spacer aka scrap 2x4. This give about 1/4" clearance between the cover and the TB, so I think I will go with a 2" spacer just to have a little extra breathing room.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa255/PonyKiller87/All%20My%20Cars/K3500/P4070006.jpg

[TransAm12sec]

3D scan the intake manifold!

This is my buddy's head.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs466.ash1/25592_632856558424_20304947_36608000_4335743_n.jpg

[PonyKiller87]

If you have a means to do that tell me where and when and I'm there. lol

[FoxStang]

3D scan the intake manifold!

This is my buddy's head.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs466.ash1/25592_632856558424_20304947_36608000_4335743_n.jpg
I hope these aren't government grants at work...
Yours is a paid position, right?

[DurtyKurty]

If you have to work with those scanned cad models, they're not as cool as you think.

[TransAm12sec]

I hope these aren't government grants at work...
Yours is a paid position, right?

The 3D scanner is in the Institute for Industrial Innovation center. They just got the scanner working, and are having issues with reflectivity on metals. They mentioned some spray to help tone down the reflectivity. I haven't used the machine yet, but would like to try it out.

http://www4.uwm.edu/news/stories/details.cfm?customel_datapageid_11602=1614402


I believe most, if not all research positions on campus are paid, in engineering at least.

[TransAm12sec]

For my curiousity and yours, see what these guys quote you.
http://www.wirespecialists.com/