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jbiscuit
12-31-2009, 04:00 PM
This winter, I had hoped to continue collecting parts for my 409 build and finish off my 4-speed grocery list. The 4-speed is ready to go once the car is out of storage. Now on to the 409 items

I bought a complete shortblock this past summer and haven't done a lot with it minus sell off some of the parts I won't be needing and begin clean-up on the rest. Here is a basic run down of where I am headed with the build:

late 63 casting 409 X block
stock stroke original forged crank
Eagle 6.135 (BBC) forged I-beam rods
Ross forged pistons: shooting for around 11:1 compression on pump fuel
Comp solid camshaft: 242/246 @.050 (272/276 advertised dur) with 595/.608 lift on a 110 LSA
modified 333 casting iron heads with 2.195 intake and 1.72 exhaust valves
Edelbrock large port dual 4 intake with 2 Eddy thunder AVS 500 cfm carbs
MSD dizzy with my MSD 6al box
rowed by my 2.52:1 built muncie m20

The goal for the motor is 475hp on 93 octane. It should be able to do that pretty easily from what I have been reading and talking with people about my build. A similar build netted 487hp with a smaller cam. :headbang I am trying to get the block down to the machine shop to have it hot tanked, magnafluxed and inspected hopefully soon. Here are a few pics of what I have been working on:

Factory GM highperformance crossmember engine mounts. These are getting to be pretty hard to find and I was lucky to score these from a rust free southern car
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/4126/dsc0070low.jpg


Factory oil canister. A lot of guy still believe these are the way to go for oil filtration. I could honestly go either way on this. I do like the old skool look to the canister so I might run it. Its cleaned and refinished ready to go. I have the original decal for it that I'll add later (the old filter is just there for reference)
http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/9825/dsc0072low.jpg

Here are the Isky solid lifters I went with. These have a great rep with the 409 builders and the addition of oiling holes to prevent wiped lobes on the cam is must. I always wanted a solid lifter 409 motor so that's why I chose to go this route over a roller cammed motor
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/5263/dsc0080low.jpg

The goal:
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/5061/dsc0089low.jpg

Rocket Power
12-31-2009, 04:48 PM
The goal:
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/5061/dsc0089low.jpg

Shouldn't the goal be to have it all together?:goof

That's awesome man ,can't wait to see and hear it when it's done.:headbang

jbiscuit
12-31-2009, 04:51 PM
what I meant was 409 in a 64 Chebie :)

Crawlin
12-31-2009, 05:09 PM
fucking SWEEEEEET

Prince Valiant
12-31-2009, 05:34 PM
That should be really sharp when you're done. Are you going to do any nostalgia drag racing or anything when your done?

pOrk
12-31-2009, 05:35 PM
School*

jbiscuit
01-01-2010, 01:32 AM
That should be really sharp when you're done. Are you going to do any nostalgia drag racing or anything when your done?

it wouldn't be quick enough to compete with the 3.73s but I'd like to build my spare chunk with a spool and 4.88s or even 5.13s to get this yacht to move...just for fun. It'll see some track time though for sure once the motor is done :thumbsup

PureSound15
01-01-2010, 11:36 AM
Very cool! We'll have to line em up next summer ;)

Prince Valiant
01-01-2010, 02:06 PM
It'll see some track time though for sure once the motor is done :thumbsup
Can't wait to see it out there...with the cam you've got, it'll be a rumpetdy mofo, for sure :thumbsup

jbiscuit
01-01-2010, 02:11 PM
^ yea it will thump pretty good. Once the block gets in to the machine shop I can order the pistons and bearings. I am going to do a little blending on the runners of the heads and intake but the heads flow pretty good out of the box. They "stepped" the runners in the heads to allow anything from a mild clean up to a full porting and opening of the port. I'm having fun :)

BOSS LX
01-01-2010, 04:54 PM
Nice J! That is super cool!

Cryptic
01-01-2010, 05:02 PM
why solid lifter over roller cammed motor?

Serious question, what's one got over the other?

Holeshot
01-01-2010, 05:07 PM
Cant wait to see it !!

jbiscuit
01-01-2010, 10:48 PM
why solid lifter over roller cammed motor?


mostly personal preference. I always wanted a solid lifter 409 since I saw and heard my first 425hp 409 when I was about 12. Nothing sounds like them I can tell you that. Another reason is cost. I can do lifters, valve springs and the cam for the price of a nice set of roller lifters.

Cryptic
01-02-2010, 12:12 AM
Looking forward to hearing that myself.

jbiscuit
01-02-2010, 09:40 AM
Just a bit of background on the 348s and 409s as to what makes them unique in case some of you didn't know:

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/chevy-409-cid-v-8-engine.jpg

The W-motor, as it was nicknamed due to its cylinder head layout, is a big bore (4.3125") and short stroke forged crank(3.5") on a 6.000" connecting rod. The combustion chamber is in the BLOCK rather than the head. The piston is unconventional in that the crown is wedge-shaped to form the combustion chamber in the block.

Piston:
http://www.bruneauperformance.ca/abruneau409pistons409comp11pin.jpg

GM believe they could tune performance and compression with piston shape and design. This created a power-generating wedge-shaped combustion area in the cylinder. A heavy piston was needed to withstand the forces generated in the cylinder. The 409s got a bad rap in the 60s once hot rodders began swapping camshafts, adding sticky tires and porting heads. The connecting rods weren't up to the task of supporting 450+hp. Lots of motors failed do to the connecting rods and the belief that the lopsided crown of the piston would "slap" the cylinder at high RPMs.

Today things are different. High performance forged connecting rods, lightened forged pistons and high performance aluminum heads have pushed the envelope as to what these motors are really capable of.

http://www.the-raceshop.com/images/Dsc00644.jpg

juicedimpss
01-02-2010, 09:50 AM
looking nice j
will yours also have a direct port on it?

SSDude
01-02-2010, 11:52 AM
looking nice j
will yours also have a direct port on it?

it'll be on the underside of the manifold. secret weapon. shhhhh

jbiscuit
02-20-2010, 08:34 AM
Just a quick update on what's going on with my 409.

Heads are on the way. I'll post pics when they show up. Changing direction here a bit. Decided to not go with the Edelbrocks based on a long conversation with a legend in 409 engine building. Suggested I go with a particular casting iron head that is often overlooked for its potential. Found a really nice set in Missouri and the deal is set so they should arrive later this week. Already bead blasted and cracked checked clean.

They will require some bowl work and basic porting to smooth out the runners etc but they should work well with my cam and compression combo. I'll be working with AMS here in West Allis to do the machine work on them including adding the screw in studs and a 3-angle job on the valves. The intake valve size will be increased from 1.94 to swirl polished 2.195s and the exhausts will go to 1.72. Those 2.195 intake valves are the same size that come on the large port high horse 409 motors, so you can see where I am going with this :)

I'll do some porting and clean-up to the heads themselves to remove the ridge created from the oversize valves etc.

Looking forward to getting them here. Overall I should end up with a set of heads that will flow similar to the Edelbrocks yet retain the stock head appearance and hopefully come out ahead a bit on the money side (I should considering I bartered parts for the heads).

Rocket Power
02-20-2010, 10:10 AM
Sounds like a win win.Saving $$ and getting performance. Awesome:headbang

WhatsADSM
02-20-2010, 10:47 AM
Awesome build man. Keep the pictures coming as you progress!

jbiscuit
02-20-2010, 12:35 PM
you bet. I'mm get a few pics of the heads on the block once they arrive.

SSDude
02-20-2010, 01:20 PM
Nice find on the heads!
Bartering rules:headbang

jbiscuit
03-04-2010, 09:38 AM
Heads have arrived in WI. More pics to come later on the block. Teaser:

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/3227/heads3.jpg

juicedimpss
03-04-2010, 09:45 AM
sweet

Dr.Buick
03-04-2010, 11:43 AM
Looks like 2 boobies

jbiscuit
03-06-2010, 02:21 PM
flatheads as stock. Working today on gasket matching the exhaust, porting and polishing. Will work on the intake side next but its slow going. Lots of clean-up on the exhaust. I'll post pics of the gasket match later

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/1981/dscn0329d.jpg
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/2825/dscn0333v.jpg

HRSEPLA
03-06-2010, 03:05 PM
That's a really cool swap J!

jbiscuit
03-06-2010, 05:12 PM
Thanks Sam!

OK here are a few pics of the head I have been working on. Port-matched the exhaust side and blended the runners/cleaned everything up. The outer 2 ports were really choked down. Everything is nice and smooth now.

I used a combination of tools/techniques...contrary to what most head porters say, I had great luck using the Dremel on a slower speed to match the gasket opening. I used a large red marker and scribed the gasket opening onto the head. Then went to town on the opening itself. Then worked the runner with a cheap-ass burr and then went over everything with a few cartridge rolls using my die grinder. Using the Dremel to match the opening allowed precise control. I'm happy with the results. Should flow a bit more than stock if anything. Time invested: about 4 hours.

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/3007/dscn0344x.jpg
http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/1750/dscn0336b.jpg
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/2373/dscn0345c.jpg

jbiscuit
03-07-2010, 09:58 AM
Today I'll begin working on the bowls and the valve stem bosses. I won't be able to 'finish' the bowls as they still need to cut for the larger valves. But I can get a lot of the blending and smoothing done at least

jbiscuit
03-15-2010, 02:11 PM
Got one head pretty much done. Going to let the machinist have a look at my work to get his feedback before I call it totally done. Got started on the second head yesterday. Hope to have them both done by the end of the week and ready for the valve job and some other machining :)

juicedimpss
03-15-2010, 02:25 PM
Got one head pretty much done. Going to let the machinist have a look at my work to get his feedback before I call it totally done. Got started on the second head yesterday. Hope to have them both done by the end of the week and ready for the valve job and some other machining :)

looks nice from the pics j,im sure you know first hand why i dont like porting iron heads.lol

Crawlin
03-15-2010, 02:41 PM
very nice J!

jbiscuit
03-15-2010, 03:02 PM
looks nice from the pics j,im sure you know first hand why i dont like porting iron heads.lol

yea, its a pain in the ass. And my garage is covered in the iron dust. But thankfully these heads weren't too bad with casting flash etc. The second head has a bit more scale on the exhaust side but I have that clean already. :headbang

I'll post more photos also of the intake side, bowl clean-up and valve guide boses after reshaping them (the above photos of the bosses through the exhaust ports are before shaping).

juicedimpss
03-15-2010, 03:05 PM
yea, its a pain in the ass. And my garage is covered in the iron dust. But thankfully these heads weren't too bad with casting flash etc. The second head has a bit more scale on the exhaust side but I have that clean already. :headbang

IMO worry about the shape more than the surface finish. the short side radius and blending the bowl to the 60* of the valve seat is where you will notice the biggest imprvements. also pay close attention to the valve guide boss.
think about what way air is flowing and smooth the obstructions.:thumbsup

Prince Valiant
03-15-2010, 03:37 PM
IMO worry about the shape more than the surface finish. the short side radius ...The truth...this was what I was alluding to at Magoo's. First set I home ported, instead of increasing the radius, I actually decreased (or sharpened more or less) the short side radius of my exhaust port...flow decreased vs. stock :durr

keep the good stuff coming J :thumbsup

jbiscuit
03-15-2010, 06:16 PM
well I got the thumbs up from the machine shop. Thought my porting looked good, good gasket match and general clean-up etc. Now to finish the second head, get some parts ordered and they'll be ready to go together

jbiscuit
04-06-2010, 05:23 PM
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3567/bellhousing.jpg

Rocket Power
04-06-2010, 07:51 PM
:headbang

TransAm12sec
04-06-2010, 10:13 PM
Remember to run a quart of oil with zinc for flat lifters!

Prince Valiant
04-06-2010, 10:15 PM
very sharp dude!

PureSound15
04-09-2010, 08:06 AM
I can't wait to see this thing J - any idea when it'll be done?

jbiscuit
04-09-2010, 08:25 AM
SOON! (sorry for the shit iPhone photos)

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/4498/getattachment3aspxh.jpg
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/2443/getattachment4aspxo.jpg

jbiscuit
04-09-2010, 08:28 AM
I should clarify though....the 4-speed is going on the 327 for now. The 409 is a ways off yet. But lets just say I have a good start on that too :)

michelle
04-09-2010, 08:30 AM
Awesome!

Prince Valiant
04-09-2010, 08:42 AM
I should clarify though....the 4-speed is going on the 327 for now. The 409 is a ways off yet. But lets just say I have a good start on that too :)That's good too Jay...a 327 with a 4 speed behind it is always a good thing :thumbsup

jbiscuit
04-10-2010, 08:22 PM
Was making great progress on the car but hit a few snags. First this week was my 409-sized radiator that doesn't fit. Griffin will be building me a new one but I won't get it for weeks. Second, I need a yoke for my driveshaft. Third having some issues with the linkage. I'll need to do some research and try and get some measurements from other 4speed cars to compare. Big props to jeff at late model throttle for welding the bracket on the frame today and for his and kyle's help so far. It'll be really cool when it's all done.

Crawlin
04-11-2010, 09:37 AM
Looking good J!

Sucks about the snags, but you know how it goes...

jbiscuit
04-11-2010, 07:03 PM
Got the steering column shaved and modified today despite being sicker than a dog. Need to assemble the upper universal joint, reinstall the joint housing and seal, toss on the firewall seal and it's ready to go. I hope to spend some more time with the linkage tomorrow and see what I can figure out there

jbiscuit
04-12-2010, 06:07 PM
shaved the steering column. Ready to reassemble the joint

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/3920/dscn0481q.jpg
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/4024/dscn0480q.jpg

SSDude
04-12-2010, 10:09 PM
Nice job on the column:thumbsup

jbiscuit
04-17-2010, 07:48 PM
She's got 4 gears. I'm having a lil problem with the clutch linkage but I'll get it sorted out. Felt great to drive it as a 4 speed car. She scoots!

Holeshot
04-17-2010, 08:04 PM
Thats sweet, You have been working your ass off. Can't wait to see it this summer.

jbiscuit
04-17-2010, 08:10 PM
Yea worked hard to get it done. Couldn't have done it without jeff n Kyle! Few little things to wrap up but all that matters is it runs/drives

Prince Valiant
04-17-2010, 09:43 PM
She's got 4 gears. I'm having a lil problem with the clutch linkage but I'll get it sorted out. Felt great to drive it as a 4 speed car. She scoots!Congrats J!

those old school 4 speed linkages and clutch assemblies are pains in the asses...but so rewarding at the same time. I swear, there is nothing more torturous than a Z-bar, lol.

When it's sorted out, any plans to get a pass or two at GLD?

Reverend Cooper
04-17-2010, 09:45 PM
that car looks great

Crawlin
04-17-2010, 10:02 PM
Love the car J! That first trip rowing gears on a freeway onramp or something will make all that hard work and challenges disappear and a smile come on the face

jbiscuit
04-17-2010, 10:15 PM
Oh it's already been ridiculously fun to drive it so far. It's nice having a first gear now lol. The Hurst Super Competition shifter is really nice and solid. Makes for solid feel when driving it. I'll post some pics tomorrow of everything together

I'll have to see about some passes at gld. Not sure I trust the brakes that much

Prince Valiant
04-17-2010, 10:32 PM
I'll have to see about some passes at gld. Not sure I trust the brakes that muchI can testify that 4 wheel drums were more than fine in the coronet coming down from 92mph...not that I'd trust repeated successive stops from those speeds with the drums. Just that slowing down in the shut down area was completely drama free making the one time slow-down.

Can't wait to see it out and about though :thumbsup

juicedimpss
04-17-2010, 10:49 PM
ive heard 4 wheel drums are ok at over 120,but i cant say i would try it myself.lol
good to hear you got it back on the road j

Crawlin
04-18-2010, 07:18 AM
ive heard 4 wheel drums are ok at over 120,but i cant say i would try it myself.lol
good to hear you got it back on the road j

hahahaha. come on, jim's car has got to weigh a TON more than J's biscayne

jbiscuit
04-18-2010, 07:21 AM
The biscuit isn't as heavy as some may think. I'll throw it on the scale this summer

GRNDNL
04-18-2010, 07:51 AM
Very cool....:thumbsup


Got a friend that races a 3800 lbs Buick with drum brakes and it stops just fine at 130mph....I don't think I'd try Road America with them.......

theavenger333
04-18-2010, 02:17 PM
The biscuit isn't as heavy as some may think. I'll throw it on the scale this summer

any plans on a brake swap? i'm not familiar with these cars at ALL, any way to put on disc fronts within a reasonable cost/amount of work?

Rocket Power
04-18-2010, 03:25 PM
Discs are for sissies :goof

jbiscuit
04-18-2010, 06:26 PM
Sure you can put discs on it. I want Wilwood to make a set up that will fit behind a 14" wheel

jbiscuit
04-21-2010, 06:00 PM
It shifts. Took it for a nice drive

HRSEPLA
04-21-2010, 06:07 PM
Yeah boyee

Prince Valiant
04-21-2010, 06:12 PM
burnout pics, stat.

theavenger333
04-22-2010, 12:37 AM
well i know it's POSSIBLE to put discs on, i was wondering specifically if it was in the plans... i really love putting updated stuff on classics, some of the kits and such look like they could be stock and i love that.

jbiscuit
04-22-2010, 06:57 AM
I would be all for adding some discs to the front of the car but the issue I will have is that I want to be able to run a 14" wheel so I can get the BFG Silvertown bias plys that the car came with new. My drums are pretty darn good for now though

jbiscuit
04-26-2010, 12:27 PM
Carpet cut, shift boot installed and carpet trim ring for bench seat 4-speed car installed. Need to finish rewiring my tach and get that back in the car and then everything is done.

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/5968/getattachment5aspx.jpg

Prince Valiant
04-26-2010, 03:18 PM
I would be all for adding some discs to the front of the car but the issue I will have is that I want to be able to run a 14" wheel so I can get the BFG Silvertown bias plys that the car came with new. My drums are pretty darn good for now thoughAren't there any junkyard swaps you can do to run early 60's disc brakes that will let you keep your 14"?

congrats on finishing it! :thumbsup

jbiscuit
04-26-2010, 03:29 PM
^ I'm sure there are Chris. To be honest I haven't researched it much. I would want "manual" discs to keep a sanitary engine bay also. The Impalas of the same vintage as my car offered a power-assisted front disc brake and I don't want the booster. I just hate how they look on the 61-64 fullsize Chevys. I know I can probably run a later 60s manual dual master out of an Imp or a Nova then its just a matter of what brackets/calipers etc. to make everything work. I'll get to that mod eventually. For now the drums really do work quite well

jbiscuit
05-24-2010, 07:12 PM
Just an update. After weeks of waiting the third Griffin radiator for me to try has shown up. This one "looks" right. Only one way to find out. I purchased this one through a fullsize chevy specialist using actual CAD drawings of an original 409 radiator to build this one. Even has the correct style top tank! If this one works out for the car it'll be a pretty cool addition. Need to wait till tomorrow to start working on it as it's over 100 degree out in the garage.

GTSLOW
05-24-2010, 07:13 PM
Just an update. After weeks of waiting the third Griffin radiator for me to try has shown up. This one "looks" right. Only one way to find out. I purchased this one through a fullsize chevy specialist using actual CAD drawings of an original 409 radiator to build this one. Even has the correct style top tank! If this one works out for the car it'll be a pretty cool addition. Need to wait till tomorrow to start working on it as it's over 100 degree out in the garage.

Finally :rolf Can't wait to finally see this thing on the road.

jbiscuit
05-24-2010, 08:51 PM
Well I have been driving it with the original radiator. But that is the radiator meant for a six cylinder car. It barely works for the 327 and for sure won't work with the 409!

jbiscuit
05-25-2010, 07:16 PM
New radiator is in. Dropped right in, all holes lined up perfect. Hood doesn't close however. The filler neck is too tall or something. Ugh.

Rocket Power
05-25-2010, 07:20 PM
Man, you just can't catch a break with that radiator

SSDude
05-25-2010, 08:17 PM
New radiator is in. Dropped right in, all holes lined up perfect. Hood doesn't close however. The filler neck is too tall or something. Ugh.

Oh crap!

jbiscuit
05-25-2010, 08:53 PM
Yea who knows what the problem is now. I even started taking measurements of the radiator support to check for square just in case the car took a hit to the front at some point. And it is square. Heights of the old radiator versus new ard the same also which tells me the holes must be off...again. This time at least the bolt spacing etc was correct allowing it to bolt up.

juicedimpss
05-25-2010, 09:27 PM
bolt-ons....................



lol

damn i hate that shit

jbiscuit
06-01-2010, 03:47 PM
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/416/radiatorin.jpg

Got the radiator modified this afternoon and in the car. Wasn't easy but its in and it looks really good. Fits great now! Need a new upper radiator hose but she'll be drivable later today yet.

SSDude
06-01-2010, 06:06 PM
lookin good Jay:thumbsup

jbiscuit
06-05-2010, 09:45 AM
just an update...got everything hooked up and the car running. Sat in the driveway the other night with high humidity, around 78 degrees for 25 minutes at idle and never got up over 170 degrees. Radiator works great from a quick test run. I have a bad thermostat housing however that leaks so I am swapping that out later today once I get the part. Should be all good after that!