5.oh!!!

[BOSS LX]

"With an aluminum engine block with cast cylinder sleeves and brand-new heads with four valves per cylinder, vertical intake ports and twin independent variable valve timing. Don't forget the tuned exhaust headers, a forged steel crankshaft with four-bolt main bearings plus new pistons and connecting rods.":wooo




http://www.autoblog.com/2009/12/25/2011-ford-mustang-gt-and-5-0-liter-v8-unwrapped-early/

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/12/18/i-autoweek-i-spills-more-beans-on-the-2011-ford-mustangs-5-0/

[Holeshot]

Thats one bad ass pony.

[HY35F2T]

Thats the hp it should of had when it first came out.

[BOSS LX]

Thats the hp it should of had when it first came out.

Sometimes it is worth the wait! Nothing like a stock GT to have a 1000+hp capable LONG BLOCK in it!

[Sprayaway Fox]

This to me is close to a family that finally gets there child home from a war. WELCOME BACK 5.0!

[sloLs1]

i wonder how much is left in that motor HP wise... like if you throw a cam an such in... if its capable of 500+ N/A hp?!?! from a somewhat easy bolt on stand point

[BOSS LX]

i wonder how much is left in that motor HP wise... like if you throw a cam an such in... if its capable of 500+ N/A hp?!?! from a somewhat easy bolt on stand point

Who cares! Order up a fuel system, maybe a whipple, tune it, and let it eat! :thumbsup

[DynoTom]

Found this info from a Coyote engine insider....



" The venerable Ford 4.6L and 5.4L Mod Motors have ceased production. The new engine that will replace these power plants in 2011 is called the 5.0L Coyote.

The blocks are a little different but the Coyote will be available with the Ford GT 4-cam, 4-valve cylinder heads. This engine will have SO much potential, much more than the present Mod Motors, primarily because the cams are computer controlled.

Cam timing sweep can be advanced or retarded as the engine is running. Right now, the horespower on our 4.6L race engine is limited to about 2500 @ 9200 rpm because the engine cannot spin the bigger turbos coming out of the hole. The 4.6L is only 281 cubic inches, it doesn't push out enough air (exhaust) to spin the big turbos.

We run twin billet 78mm turbos. We have tried using bigger turbos and the car goes slower. On the top end we COULD use bigger turbos but the engine is somewhat dead on the bottom end, not enough boost. Compromise is the order of the game when it comes to turbo size in drag racing, especially with small displacement engines.

Now, if we had the ability to ADVANCE the cam timing on the bottom and RETARD the cam timing on the top we would be able to spool up bigger turbos, like twin 88's or even the 91's. The Coyote will give us this opportunity, so stand back. 3000 hp out of 300 cubic inches on gasoline is on the way ".

[Karps TA]

With the 2011 Mustang GT getting over 400hp, and the V6 getting 300hp and weighing 4-500 pounds less, looks like they'll get their sales numbers back over the Camaro again.

Of course I'm sure the Camaro will come out with some new $2500 sticker packages to combat that.

What I really like about the 5.0 is it looks like there's room in the engine bay. Not used to seeing that anymore.

[Car Guy]

Of course I'm sure the Camaro will come out with some new $2500 sticker packages to combat that.

:rolf

[OxmanWI]

Return of the 5.0!! Yeeeea! :D

[-stew-]

And it's wearing 5.0 badges. *swoon*

[Rocket Power]

Of course I'm sure the Camaro will come out with some new $2500 sticker packages to combat that.
:rolf:rolf:rolf:rolf:rolf

[VroomPshhTsi]

Not a fan of the rims.

[BOSS LX]

Not a fan of the rims.

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/3087/2010mustangfs.jpg (http://img121.imageshack.us/i/2010mustangfs.jpg/)

[BAD LS1]

Looks like an old SHO motor. Cant wait to come across one on the street some day.

[BOSS LX]

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/3381/633973256005637875happy.jpg (http://img69.imageshack.us/i/633973256005637875happy.jpg/)

[BAD LS1]

^^^^ Since when did you start liking mod motors? God that looks like a Camaro engine bay too!!!

[BOSS LX]

^^^^ Since when did you start liking mod motors? God that looks like a Camaro engine bay too!!!

Since they starting kicking are asses!:rolf


I am staying push rod for a loooong time, but to see these huge horsepower cars using major stock parts is very impressive. Nothing on my motor is made by Ford.

Another thing I like is not needing huge valve spring pressures on high HP boosted engines.

[GRNDNL]

Of course I'm sure the Camaro will come out with some new $2500 sticker packages to combat that.


Camaro guys are so lucky, I had to pay $6887.00 for the sticker package on the wifes Firehawk........If we would have bought a Camaro we could have put 2 sticker packages on it and had enough left over for a lid, loudmouth exhaust and a set of TTII's..........

[GRNDNL]

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/3381/633973256005637875happy.jpg (http://img69.imageshack.us/i/633973256005637875happy.jpg/)


Looks like a truck motor to me, wonder if they'll be able to keep the spark plugs in it?...........

[BOSS LX]

Looks like a truck motor to me, wonder if they'll be able to keep the spark plugs in it?...........

They fixed that 7 years ago!:rolf

[BAD LS1]

Since they starting kicking are asses!:rolf


I am staying push rod for a loooong time, but to see these huge horsepower cars using major stock parts is very impressive. Nothing on my motor is made by Ford.

Another thing I like is not needing huge valve spring pressures on high HP boosted engines.

Still alot further ahead cost wise with good ole pushrod power, regardless of who made it. Besides that pushrod motor makes for meaty power vs all of it peaking at 7K. It may be antiquated technology but its still more than sufficient in my observation.

[PureSound15]

They fixed that 7 years ago!:rolf

4.6 still has that problem :( Blowing the coil out and stripping the plug threads.

[MurphysLaw88GT]

That thing is badass.

[Crawlin]

Competition is good for everyone...

[Prince Valiant]

Sometimes it is worth the wait! Nothing like a stock GT to have a 1000+hp capable LONG BLOCK in it!Since when does simply the presence of forged crank and 4 bolt mains means it's automatically a 1,000hp capable long block? I mean, Andy, we know your a ford guy and all...but don't go blowing your load so obviously for everyone to see...it's embarrassing. :rolf

There's a lot of safer calls out there than that...like, I'm certain we'll see mustangs hit 12.7's, box-stock.

But for the coyote itself, I'm sure it's a good engine and all, and I can't wait to hear one rev up to redline...but it's still in 3rd place from a HP perspective.



<<[Put's on Swami hat]-I predict that we'll witness the sudden embrace of "HP/L argument" from the ford camp :alcoholic


....a forged steel crankshaft with four-bolt main bearings plus new pistons and connecting rods."I guess the big news is that they are now building v8's with new pistons and connecting rods, instead of using used ones? :wow

[BOSS LX]

They are forged rods and pistons Prince. These long blocks have already made that kind of power.

[Prince Valiant]

They are forged rods and pistons Prince. These long blocks have already made that kind of power.When??? Where??? Where has this engine been used previously?

Actually, it doesn't say they are forged...perhaps too much splooge on the monitor made it hard to read?

furthermore, if they are indeed forged, that doesn't mean that the stock forged rods or pistons (or HG, for that matter) will still live with roughly ~22-23psi of boost just slapped on the higher compression n/a engine.

It's not like you're taking an engine factory built for boost (i.e. the cobra's with aftermarket supplied pistons, btw), and upping the boost.

[BOSS LX]

When??? Where??? Where has this engine been used previously?

Actually, it doesn't say they are forged...perhaps too much splooge on the monitor made it hard to read?

furthermore, if they are indeed forged, that doesn't mean that the stock forged rods or pistons (or HG, for that matter) will still live with roughly ~22-23psi of boost just slapped on the higher compression n/a engine.

It's not like you're taking an engine factory built for boost (i.e. the cobra's with aftermarket supplied pistons, btw), and upping the boost.

The articles I posted are just the ones saying it will be released.

Everything I have been told about these engines by people that know, is that they are all forged 5.0's with Ford GT 4 cam heads.

The only thing you have me on is the compression ratio. I have no idea what it will be. But I have seen 30+psi engines use 11 to 1 compression very successfully.

What other engine in history can make 2500+ hp on a OEM block, crank, and heads? The coyote engine is a mod motor with all of it's short comings repaired.

Now you can continue thinking about splooge!:thumbsup

[BOSS LX]

4.6 still has that problem :( Blowing the coil out and stripping the plug threads.

I have never heard of a 3v head having that issue?

[Crawlin]

What other engine in history can make 2500+ hp on a OEM block, crank, and heads? The coyote engine is a mod motor with all of it's short comings repaired.

6.0L lsx motor.... well except for the crank, so you got me there, haha

went 6.97 probably 5-6 years ago. no aftermarket castings were even out at that point.

But like I said, competition like this is good. Should make things very interesting for the NMRA classes and any latemodel EFI competition

[BOSS LX]

6.0L lsx motor.... well except for the crank, so you got me there, haha

went 6.97 probably 5-6 years ago. no aftermarket castings were even out at that point.

But like I said, competition like this is good. Should make things very interesting for the NMRA classes and any latemodel EFI competition

Post a link Chris.

[Crawlin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t65VypaaRJU

http://video.lsxtv.com/video_detail.php?mId=8353

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/forced-induction/366003-casper-now-there.html



my bad, was a little off on the e.t. It was '05 and like I said, no aftermarket blocks had come out yet. hell that's only been in the last 2 i think. Was definitely a pain in the ass for them to do it considering replacing headgaskets every "xx" number of passes.

It's a big tire/full race car. So in comparison to what alot of the Ford guys are gonna do it'll pale in comparison. I forsee that 5.0 in alot of DR and TT5 cars for sure once aftermarket follows up with it.

I'm a bit shy of the 2500hp anyways

Not sure what the 352 will do next, but some engine dyno time is in order. According to the info collected, we are over 1900hp at the flywheel!!!


Thats from the guys back then

(still searching on the head info as I may be wrong on that too, so this may not even matter. i'm man enough to admit i'm wrong, haha, but i know it was a stock block half filled)


The engine is a filled 6.0 block.
The Ford guys have a aftermarket block available to them now, but they are running real fast on stock stuff

[WhatsADSM]

Sounds like an awesome setup Kudos to Ford for finally stepping up to the plate.

But yea I dunno about this 1k+ hp on the stock long block. I'll bet its a forged crank and that's it. Cast or hyper. pistons. We will just have to wait and see.

[Karps TA]

Beyond all the extreme setups, what I find the most interesting about this is the power auto makers are getting while still passing some pretty strigent emissions regulations. Everybody thought the days of high hp cars would be gone due to emissions, and with what happened to the hp wars in the 70's. But it's being proven that not only can you make 400hp, a very rarified number not that long ago, but you can do it cleanly, and reliably enough that it can be put into production on cars having 60,000 mile plus warranties on them.

[BOSS LX]

Sounds like an awesome setup Kudos to Ford for finally stepping up to the plate.

But yea I dunno about this 1k+ hp on the stock long block. I'll bet its a forged crank and that's it. Cast or hyper. pistons. We will just have to wait and see.

Even if my sources are wrong, the crank, block and heads will make that power and beyond.

[Crawlin]

Beyond all the extreme setups, what I find the most interesting about this is the power auto makers are getting while still passing some pretty strigent emissions regulations. Everybody thought the days of high hp cars would be gone due to emissions, and with what happened to the hp wars in the 70's. But it's being proven that not only can you make 400hp, a very rarified number not that long ago, but you can do it cleanly, and reliably enough that it can be put into production on cars having 60,000 mile plus warranties on them.

Just sucks that they then have the "safety" standards that require these cars to start approaching 3600-3800lbs on the light side compared to the 3100-3200 of back in the day. Granted of course we all want the safety, just has it's consequences for performance vehicles.

[Crawlin]

Even if my sources are wrong, the crank, block and heads will make that power and beyond.

Absolutely...

if you are gonna push that much through it, are you really wanting to rely on stock rods even if they are forged when you already are ripping it apart to replace pistons?

Andy, have they said anything about the oiling system? Whether it will support high RPM in a stock configuration?

[BOSS LX]

Absolutely...

if you are gonna push that much through it, are you really wanting to rely on stock rods even if they are forged when you already are ripping it apart to replace pistons?

Andy, have they said anything about the oiling system? Whether it will support high RPM in a stock configuration?
From what I understand, they did address the oiling issue. That was one of the draw backs of the old blocks.

On the rods and pistons, the answer is no. But it sure would be cool to add some boost and make 700+ to the tire. Remember that the 6.2 is also coming out, and a 650 hp GT 500.

[PureSound15]

I have never heard of a 3v head having that issue?

Ah sorry - very much an issue with the 4v

http://www.denlorstools.com/home/dt1/page_12997/ford_spark_plug_blow_out_problems_how_to_repair.ht ml

[Prince Valiant]

The articles I posted are just the ones saying it will be released.

Everything I have been told about these engines by people that know, is that they are all forged 5.0's with Ford GT 4 cam heads.

The only thing you have me on is the compression ratio. I have no idea what it will be. But I have seen 30+psi engines use 11 to 1 compression very successfully.

So you first say "...these long blocks have already made that kind of power," when in fact no one with these long blocks have made this kind of power; hell, we aren't even sure what these long blocks have! :rolf

I mean, until we actually see what the long block can take stock, all you have is useless conjecture. Even should the engine have forged pistons, are the ringlands beefy enough for such high boost levels/combustion pressures? Are the rings appropriately gapped? I mean, for an engine factory built specifically for boost, at least the engineers can begin to set production tolerances that at least stand a chance of coping with high boost levels. Imo, you won't see that with a factory N/A engine...that is, unless ford is open to the possibility of premature blow-by from their engines and/or diminished performance (it is possible, I concede).






What other engine in history can make 2500+ hp on a OEM block, crank, and heads? By 1970, 426 hemi's were producing 3,000hp. No such thing as aftermarket blocks then, and yes, they used stock cranks too.


The coyote engine is a mod motor with all of it's short comings repaired.It is, as they say, an all new engine. Sure, it's an OHC engine like the mod motors were...has pistons, a crankshaft, and stuff like that similar to the mod motors. But that doesn't mean it's simply a mod motor with the (numerous) short comings addressed.

[STANMAN]

I don't think the modular motors had "numerous" issues to address. The 1st 2 valves were a little low on power, so they designed the PI head. Then there's the 4 valve heads on the Mach's and Cobra's, quiet a few Termy's out there running LOTS of HP on the original stuff. Then they made the 3 valve head's for the 05 and up. Had an issue with the garbage 2 piece spark plugs, but other than that, tip top as long as you don't put double the HP to them than what they were built for (3V motors are typically "safe" up to 500RWHP). I mean I am running 470 to the wheels with no ill effects. Yet, lol.

[BOSS LX]

So you first say "...these long blocks have already made that kind of power," when in fact no one with these long blocks have made this kind of power; hell, we aren't even sure what these long blocks have! :rolf

I mean, until we actually see what the long block can take stock, all you have is useless conjecture. Even should the engine have forged pistons, are the ringlands beefy enough for such high boost levels/combustion pressures? Are the rings appropriately gapped? I mean, for an engine factory built specifically for boost, at least the engineers can begin to set production tolerances that at least stand a chance of coping with high boost levels. Imo, you won't see that with a factory N/A engine...that is, unless ford is open to the possibility of premature blow-by from their engines and/or diminished performance (it is possible, I concede).





By 1970, 426 hemi's were producing 3,000hp. No such thing as aftermarket blocks then, and yes, they used stock cranks too.

It is, as they say, an all new engine. Sure, it's an OHC engine like the mod motors were...has pistons, a crankshaft, and stuff like that similar to the mod motors. But that doesn't mean it's simply a mod motor with the (numerous) short comings addressed.

With all of your knowledge, why do you even need to pay for the internet?

Like I said, I have talked to a few guys in the industry and this is what I have heard. From what "I" know the motor has made the power that I suggested. It has been being tested around the DRAG world for awhile. We will just have to see.

I could care less about stock numbers, I am more interested in these motors in class racing. Slowly but surely the mod motors are becoming harder and harder to beat in most classes. I think the coyote will just make them tougher to beat.

[DynoTom]

It has been being tested around the DRAG world for awhile. We will just have to see.


That's what I have been gathering.....Ford sent box stock engines to certain builders to see what they could do....;););)

[BOSS LX]

That's what I have been gathering.....Ford sent box stock engines to certain builders to see what they could do....;););)

Do you have proof? :thumbsup

[DynoTom]

This guy is one I of them.....


http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/hrdp_0403_2002_mercury_cougar/index.html



I don't think there should be much doubt that the hard core mod Ford guys will take the Coyote to insane levels , the guys getting the new engine have done things with the Old 4.6 that still are insane to think years later....

[BOSS LX]

This guy is one I of them.....


http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/hrdp_0403_2002_mercury_cougar/index.html



I don't think there should be much doubt that the hard core mod Ford guys will take the Coyote to insane levels , the guys getting the new engine have done things with the Old 4.6 that still are insane to think years later....

That is an old article, that car now goes lower 6's.

[DynoTom]

That is an old article, that car now goes lower 6's.

Yep, I was just saying that was the place and guy working the new Coyote from Ford....

"Early last year when the Ford Racing engineers were out here looking at our 4.6L, we put it up on the engine dyno for them. They kept telling us "you can't do this, etc., no way you can do this, etc., no way can you get this kind of compression and boost and keep it from detonating, no way, no how." We showed them EVERY part of the engine (other than the cam specs). They were here for a week in our engine room. On the dyno, they kept moving away from the door to the dyno room once the engine reached 9200 rpm. We spun it up to 9600 for them just to see the looks on their faces. Anyone that thinks that turbo engines are quite hasn't heard ours at 9600 rpm, with the turbos glowing cherry red."

[BAD LS1]

So Ford's powertrain team hands out their experimental engines to "nutty professors" for guidance for R&D in how to make power with it?

The part that gets me has to be the engineers are close minded enough to argue with the guys that they didnt just do what they did and it held together? Judging by the story they kept timing extremely low to keep it alive that the exhaust glowed red haha.

[Prince Valiant]

With all of your knowledge, why do you even need to pay for the internet? lol...is that some sort of zinger or a compliment?

I agree with Chris...oh, i'm sure the blocks will be good and strong (most blocks are these days), and I'm sure that people will be able to make amazing power with them too...it's a wonder what cramming air and fuel into a cylinder will do for it.

But geez-louise, It's about time that Ford's been able to make a 400hp engine without resorting to altered induction. Take that and be happy with it...you don't need to make baseless claims about stock n/a long blocks and make up the history of engines as if the mod motor was some sort of revolutionary marvel.

[BOSS LX]

lol...is that some sort of zinger or a compliment?

I agree with Chris...oh, i'm sure the blocks will be good and strong (most blocks are these days), and I'm sure that people will be able to make amazing power with them too...it's a wonder what cramming air and fuel into a cylinder will do for it.

But geez-louise, It's about time that Ford's been able to make a 400hp engine without resorting to altered induction. Take that and be happy with it...you don't need to make baseless claims about stock n/a long blocks and make up the history of engines as if the mod motor was some sort of revolutionary marvel.

LOL, take it as you will!:rolf

I just see what these motors are doing these days, and have heard the rumors about these new ones. Like I said, we will just have to wait and see.

I am a push rod guy, but that doesn't mean that I am not impressed.

BTW what year was Reagan born, I don't want to waste time with google!

[Prince Valiant]

Same year as my grandpa...1911. Check it for me though, would you?

[DynoTom]

Same year as my grandpa...1911. Check it for me though, would you?

Yep , 1911 is right .....I miss Reagan ! He was the first President I was old enough to vote for.....:thumbsup:thumbsup

[BOSS LX]

Same year as my grandpa...1911. Check it for me though, would you?

:rolf:rolf

[70 cutlass 442]

So Ford's powertrain team hands out their experimental engines to "nutty professors" for guidance for R&D in how to make power with it?



Just like GM has to consult with the federal government when it comes to finances :thumbsup

[michelle]

Just like GM has to consult with the federal government when it comes to finances :thumbsup

:rolf

[DR.FORD]

So Ford's powertrain team hands out their experimental engines to "nutty professors" for guidance for R&D in how to make power with it?

The part that gets me has to be the engineers are close minded enough to argue with the guys that they didnt just do what they did and it held together? Judging by the story they kept timing extremely low to keep it alive that the exhaust glowed red haha.

Maybe you are too young, but did you ever hear the name Smokey Yunick?
Yep, he was a "nutty professor" too!
He did crazy shit for all of the "Big Three"-did stuff the "engineers" were afraid to do, just like these guys now.
And he was a god because of it.

[BOSS LX]

Just like GM has to consult with the federal government when it comes to finances :thumbsup

That was good!:rolf:rolf

[Prince Valiant]

Just like GM has to consult with the federal government when it comes to finances :thumbsupFord was/is every bit as broke as GM though :wow

[BAD LS1]

So when does "bad boy" hit the streets anyway?

[BOSS LX]

Ford was/is every bit as broke as GM though :wow

Maybe you need to check the internet on that one.

[BAD LS1]

Ford was/is every bit as broke as GM though :wow

Hell i didn't even have to bring GM into the ford thread my self this time, they did it for me:thumbsup

[STANMAN]

Ford was/is every bit as broke as GM though :wow

They aren't. They were just smarter than the rest and saw this coming and liquidated assets to have cash on hand. They used this large cash reserve to secure loans before the banks had all their issues. So yes, they COULD have been in the same boat as GM/Chrysler, as at the time it happened their sales weren't any better, but instead they weren't, they had enough cash to get through without going on the taxpayer payroll. Because of this, they picked up huge domestic market share. Take it from someone who is "in the biz", out of the big 3 Ford is the one who came out of this "downturn" in the best shape by FAR.

[Irish]

...

[Prince Valiant]

They aren't. They were just smarter than the rest and saw this coming and liquidated assets to have cash on hand. They used this large cash reserve to secure loans before the banks had all their issues. So yes, they COULD have been in the same boat as GM/Chrysler, as at the time it happened their sales weren't any better, but instead they weren't, they had enough cash to get through without going on the taxpayer payroll. Because of this, they picked up huge domestic market share. Take it from someone who is "in the biz", out of the big 3 Ford is the one who came out of this "downturn" in the best shape by FAR.This is a very idealized, and incorrect version of what's happened.

The big 3 were in roughly the same boat as each other...with roughly the same amount of cash on hand (chrysler was actually thought to have the most, hence GM was looking to obtain them, for their cash--the reason people only thought they had the most was chrysler was a private company, so they didn't have to make public their books---and it was not known the amount of cash diamler had raided from them, which turned out to be near 40 billion).

The difference was that Ford had secured loans years ago, as they were steadily bleeding cash, and this was without the foresight of the impending credit crunch, which contrary to your belief, was not seen by ford and ford alone (otherwise you'd had seen them sale of tons more salable assets before the concurrent price drop :rolleyes: ). It was the credit crunch coupled with low cash on hand that had put GM and Chrysler in a bind, since loans became virtually impossible for them to then obtain.

While ford has/had salable assets like Jaguar, volvo, rover, and mazda, these were/may be sold not to put an excess of cash in the coffers, but to keep them afloat

Ford considered taking a federal bailout...despite having access to credit that the others didn't, not cash. Ford remained ambiguous throughout the early part of the bailout talks, only deciding not to take the bailouts for reasons that it'd give them a PR coup...which they've used fairly effectively, since there was push-back to the idea of federal bailouts (as this board proves everyday).

This in turn could comeback to hurt ford though...as they're loan terms aren't nearly as favorable as that of GM's or Chrysler, which could lead to them being unable to capitalize in reinvestment to the same degree as GM or Chrysler if/when sales rebound to sustainable profitable levels.

Don't get me wrong...I'm not rooting against ford, GM, Chrysler, toyota, honda or anyone...I want to see all the companies making products that people want and can buy. I was against federal bailouts then, and still am...but ford litterally had a stroke of luck, not genius, to avoid GM and Chrysler's situation.

I ain't drinking the ford-does-everything-right-and-shits-puppies kool-aide.

edit:yes, and check the internet if you want for factual version of what went down.

[Russ Jerome]

Looks to be a great design, way to early to get all fuzzy about it. 6-12 months into street use will tell what gremlins lie inside.

Im a huge fan of the 4.6 DOHC 4valve motor in my Lincoln, think the 4.6 SOHC 2v is a waste of metal myself.

[GTSLOW]

That blue mustang in the second link is HOT!! I dunno I think the 5.0 badges look weird on the new style stang.

[07ROUSHSTG3]

damn it. now do i:

a- trade in my car for a stock gt and build it
b- trade in for a ROUSH stage 2 and build it up
c- wait for FR to release the crate version of this motor and put in my car
d- get rid of the wife, sell her car and all her junk, keep my mustang and buy another one for the garage.

bout time ford. i had heard that the rotating assembly was going to be pretty much the same as the 3v, but i heard wrong i guess. thank god. now i have some number crunching to do.

[BOSS LX]

This is a very idealized, and incorrect version of what's happened.

The big 3 were in roughly the same boat as each other...with roughly the same amount of cash on hand (chrysler was actually thought to have the most, hence GM was looking to obtain them, for their cash--the reason people only thought they had the most was chrysler was a private company, so they didn't have to make public their books---and it was not known the amount of cash diamler had raided from them, which turned out to be near 40 billion).

The difference was that Ford had secured loans years ago, as they were steadily bleeding cash, and this was without the foresight of the impending credit crunch, which contrary to your belief, was not seen by ford and ford alone (otherwise you'd had seen them sale of tons more salable assets before the concurrent price drop :rolleyes: ). It was the credit crunch coupled with low cash on hand that had put GM and Chrysler in a bind, since loans became virtually impossible for them to then obtain.

While ford has/had salable assets like Jaguar, volvo, rover, and mazda, these were/may be sold not to put an excess of cash in the coffers, but to keep them afloat

Ford considered taking a federal bailout...despite having access to credit that the others didn't, not cash. Ford remained ambiguous throughout the early part of the bailout talks, only deciding not to take the bailouts for reasons that it'd give them a PR coup...which they've used fairly effectively, since there was push-back to the idea of federal bailouts (as this board proves everyday).

This in turn could comeback to hurt ford though...as they're loan terms aren't nearly as favorable as that of GM's or Chrysler, which could lead to them being unable to capitalize in reinvestment to the same degree as GM or Chrysler if/when sales rebound to sustainable profitable levels.

Don't get me wrong...I'm not rooting against ford, GM, Chrysler, toyota, honda or anyone...I want to see all the companies making products that people want and can buy. I was against federal bailouts then, and still am...but ford litterally had a stroke of luck, not genius, to avoid GM and Chrysler's situation.

I ain't drinking the ford-does-everything-right-and-shits-puppies kool-aide.

edit:yes, and check the internet if you want for factual version of what went down.

Ford never took a bailout, and now the stock is on the up and they are turning a profit. How does that compare to GM and Mopar?

You should really try Ford kool-aid, the flavor of "winning" is very addictive! :rolf

[07ROUSHSTG3]

i wonder what ford is going to charge for a long block or full crate motor. usually production setups have been somewhat reasonable?!? going to be a long winter as details emerge.

[BOSS LX]

i wonder what ford is going to charge for a long block or full crate motor. usually production setups have been somewhat reasonable?!? going to be a long winter as details emerge.

Remember this is just the GT engine. What else will be available in the other packages?

The rumor is the GT500 will be a twin turbo 6.2l!:devil

[07ROUSHSTG3]

Remember this is just the GT engine. What else will be available in the other packages?

The rumor is the GT500 will be a twin turbo 6.2l!:devil

yeah. i cannot wait. should rip my motor out now already and try to sell it, LOL!

[STANMAN]

This is a very idealized, and incorrect version of what's happened.

The big 3 were in roughly the same boat as each other...with roughly the same amount of cash on hand (chrysler was actually thought to have the most, hence GM was looking to obtain them, for their cash--the reason people only thought they had the most was chrysler was a private company, so they didn't have to make public their books---and it was not known the amount of cash diamler had raided from them, which turned out to be near 40 billion).

The difference was that Ford had secured loans years ago, as they were steadily bleeding cash, and this was without the foresight of the impending credit crunch, which contrary to your belief, was not seen by ford and ford alone (otherwise you'd had seen them sale of tons more salable assets before the concurrent price drop :rolleyes: ). It was the credit crunch coupled with low cash on hand that had put GM and Chrysler in a bind, since loans became virtually impossible for them to then obtain.

While ford has/had salable assets like Jaguar, volvo, rover, and mazda, these were/may be sold not to put an excess of cash in the coffers, but to keep them afloat

Ford considered taking a federal bailout...despite having access to credit that the others didn't, not cash. Ford remained ambiguous throughout the early part of the bailout talks, only deciding not to take the bailouts for reasons that it'd give them a PR coup...which they've used fairly effectively, since there was push-back to the idea of federal bailouts (as this board proves everyday).

This in turn could comeback to hurt ford though...as they're loan terms aren't nearly as favorable as that of GM's or Chrysler, which could lead to them being unable to capitalize in reinvestment to the same degree as GM or Chrysler if/when sales rebound to sustainable profitable levels.

Don't get me wrong...I'm not rooting against ford, GM, Chrysler, toyota, honda or anyone...I want to see all the companies making products that people want and can buy. I was against federal bailouts then, and still am...but ford litterally had a stroke of luck, not genius, to avoid GM and Chrysler's situation.

I ain't drinking the ford-does-everything-right-and-shits-puppies kool-aide.

edit:yes, and check the internet if you want for factual version of what went down.



I am not drinking the Ford cool aide either, you know I am a Mopar guy:rolf

Speculate how it happened the way you want, when push comes to shove, Ford made some very good moves while GM and Chrysler didn't, and if you think it was a "stroke of luck" perhaps Ford should have just played the lottery, because the moves they made, if luck were the reason, have about the same odds of success.

Chrysler merging with Fiat is REALLY going to help them, Fiat has some reallly nice small cars, something Chrysler lacks. I think this whole thing is the last call for GM, they have already became a totally different player in the market, and I don't see them ever getting back to where they once were.

And of course GM and Chrysler have favorable loan terms, there's nothing better than borrowing from the American taxpayer, because my friend, we don't get paid interest, lol.

Again, this is coming from someone who makes internal engine components for roughly 95% of the engine platforms worldwide, I have some insight into the auto world:rolf

[Crawlin]

Chrysler already said they weren't gonna be able to pay back their loans...

http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/05/news/companies/chrysler_loans/index.htm

GM has already started paying back and has said they will be able to pay ALL loans as well as interest.(can't find the interest article. was in an editorial)

http://businessnewss.wordpress.com/2009/11/16/gm-begins-to-pay-back-loans/


Some insight..... :)

[Prince Valiant]

Ford never took a bailout, and now the stock is on the up and they are turning a profit. How does that compare to GM and Mopar?Well, you say that ford never took a "bailout", however, that's not quite true. Ford never took a federal bailout. But the only thing that's kept them "afloat", to use a boating term, is the series of loans they secured long before the credit crunch, ie, a "bailout" to use another boating term. Words can be a funny thing, with their origins, uses, and meanings, eh? :rolf

Ford must build it's cars with built in exhaust leaks or something...that is one of the few plausible explanations about the group-think denial as to how close Ford came to going out of business. Even auto investor kerkorkian got nervous and cashed out his shares when Ford stock went under 2bucks/share...and this was after he had just previously doubled down on their stocks...and he's not considered a "safe" investor.

For someone who purportedly is everything ford, you really know very little about them.

[Crawlin]

I will always remember Ford as being the investment I shoulda done... It was down to $1.13/share and a buddy and I at work were gonna invest everything into it just on a whim. ONLY if it got below $1.00. It didn't, and the next week is was up at $3.00.

Woulda made for a nice "toy car" bought from that investment profit, haha

[07ROUSHSTG3]

I will always remember Ford as being the investment I shoulda done... It was down to $1.13/share and a buddy and I at work were gonna invest everything into it just on a whim. ONLY if it got below $1.00. It didn't, and the next week is was up at $3.00.

Woulda made for a nice "toy car" bought from that investment profit, haha

if i had rolled everything i have over into ford stock, which i did consider for a short time, i would be retired right now. woulda shoulda coulda.

[BOSS LX]

Well, you say that ford never took a "bailout", however, that's not quite true. Ford never took a federal bailout. But the only thing that's kept them "afloat", to use a boating term, is the series of loans they secured long before the credit crunch, ie, a "bailout" to use another boating term. Words can be a funny thing, with their origins, uses, and meanings, eh? :rolf

Ford must build it's cars with built in exhaust leaks or something...that is one of the few plausible explanations about the group-think denial as to how close Ford came to going out of business. Even auto investor kerkorkian got nervous and cashed out his shares when Ford stock went under 2bucks/share...and this was after he had just previously doubled down on their stocks...and he's not considered a "safe" investor.

For someone who purportedly is everything ford, you really know very little about them.

They DID NOT take a OBAMA bailout, period! And now the stock is over $10.00 a share.

Just because you use fancy words and logic nobody can understand, doesn't make you right.

Put that in your lil read express stacks and smoke it! :thumbsup

[lordairgtar]

damn it. now do i:


d- get rid of the wife, sell her car and all her junk, keep my mustang and buy another one for the garage.


Yer gonna put the new wife in the garage? I hope it's heated.

[Crawlin]

if i had rolled everything i have over into ford stock, which i did consider for a short time, i would be retired right now. woulda shoulda coulda.

Yep, especially now if what Andy said is true and it's over $10/share. I wouldn't be retired by any means. But yeah, woulda shoulda coula kills me sometime, haha.

[GTSLOW]

They DID NOT take a OBAMA bailout, period! And now the stock is over $10.00 a share.

Just because you use fancy words and logic nobody can understand, doesn't make you right.

Put that in your lil read express stacks and smoke it! :thumbsup

He said in his post Ford never took a Federal Bailout.

[Prince Valiant]

They DID NOT take a OBAMA bailout, period!And notice, I didn't say they took either an "OBAMA" nor even a bush bailout. But, had they not received a cash infusion, they would have gone bankrupt....in other words, "sunk." Good thing they could get "bailed out," huh?

...and for the record, had they not secured the loans prior to the credit crunch (by pure dumb luck), Ford would have been gladly taking the "obama (and bush) bailout."

And now the stock is over $10.00 a share.Which is great an all...but where did it come from? All the way up from what number again? Yep, less than 2 dollars a share?!?

So are you starting to get it? Yeah, ford just about bit the big one.


Just because you use fancy words and logic nobody can understand, doesn't make you right.Nope, but having the facts on my side does.


Put that in your lil read express stacks and smoke it! :thumbsupOnly if I can roll it in one of your dyno sheets :durr

[BOSS LX]

Yep, especially now if what Andy said is true and it's over $10/share. I wouldn't be retired by any means. But yeah, woulda shoulda coula kills me sometime, haha.

Oh it is! I bought in at a little less then $3.00 a share.

[BOSS LX]

So are you starting to get it? Yeah, ford just about bit the big one.


So what does "just about" mean? It means they succeeded with out taking our money. It doesn't matter how they did it.

I would rather be "just about" dead, then dead!:thumbsup

For the record I support all American made car companies, and truly hope they ALL pull out of this situation!

As for my dyno sheet, it would still barely put your land yacht in the 10's. :rolf

[DR.FORD]

Well, you say that ford never took a "bailout", however, that's not quite true. Ford never took a federal bailout. But the only thing that's kept them "afloat", to use a boating term, is the series of loans they secured long before the credit crunch, ie, a "bailout" to use another boating term. Words can be a funny thing, with their origins, uses, and meanings, eh? :rolf

Ford must build it's cars with built in exhaust leaks or something...that is one of the few plausible explanations about the group-think denial as to how close Ford came to going out of business. Even auto investor kerkorkian got nervous and cashed out his shares when Ford stock went under 2bucks/share...and this was after he had just previously doubled down on their stocks...and he's not considered a "safe" investor.

For someone who purportedly is everything ford, you really know very little about them.

Wow, I guess I bailed out too...
been in my own business 28 years,
took bailouts (loans) to buy houses,
took bailouts (loans) to buy shop equipment,
took bailouts (loans) to buy shop vehicles,
took "short" bailouts (notes) to turn investments (musclecars)

You know why???
It was CHEAPER than using my own money!!!!
It is also how business "works"!!
You call it "Dumb Luck"
I call it making the right decision at the right time.

Oh, and bottom line-Ford don't build cars with built-in exhaust leaks, but some of the people who support them have "common sense".
You won't get that on the internet, you'll only get what the media wants you to know!!:rolf

[BOSS LX]

Wow, I guess I bailed out too...
been in my own business 28 years,
took bailouts (loans) to buy houses,
took bailouts (loans) to buy shop equipment,
took bailouts (loans) to buy shop vehicles,
took "short" bailouts (notes) to turn investments (musclecars)

You know why???
It was CHEAPER than using my own money!!!!
It is also how business "works"!!
You call it "Dumb Luck"
I call it making the right decision at the right time.

Oh, and bottom line-Ford don't build cars with built-in exhaust leaks, but some of the people who support them have "common sense".
You won't get that on the internet, you'll only get what the media wants you to know!!:rolf

Hey Jim, isn't this Ford Kool-aid great? :devil:thumbsup

[DR.FORD]

hey jim, isn't this ford kool-aid great? :devil:thumbsup

fukkin' yummy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BOSS LX]

fukkin' yummy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:rolf:thumbsup

[Prince Valiant]

Wow, I guess I bailed out too...
been in my own business 28 years,
took bailouts (loans) to buy houses,
took bailouts (loans) to buy shop equipment,
took bailouts (loans) to buy shop vehicles,
took "short" bailouts (notes) to turn investments (musclecars)

You know why???
It was CHEAPER than using my own money!!!!
It is also how business "works"!!
You call it "Dumb Luck"
I call it making the right decision at the right time.

Oh, and bottom line-Ford don't build cars with built-in exhaust leaks, but some of the people who support them have "common sense".
You won't get that on the internet, you'll only get what the media wants you to know!!:rolfJim, Bailouts (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=AjP&defl=en&q=define:Bailout&ei=xQs4S4nnF9WtlAeD6NH8Bw&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title&ved=0CAsQkAE) are loans to save one from financial doom. Notice in the linked definition, that it doesn't specify that to be a "bailout" that it has to come from the fed too.

loans (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=IjP&q=define%3Aloan&btnG=Search), which you erroneously termed "bailout", are obliquely similar in that both deal in lending money, however, "loans" don't imply impending financial doom otherwise. As you show, they are often used in the acquisition of new capital, rather than to simply make ends meet.

Now, perhaps you think that a company who's stock fell to 1.13 is not a company on the edge of failure...but hey, that's you.

*sigh* ford guys :rolleyes: An oval is a perfect shape for their logo...it shows their obtuseness perfectly.

[michelle]

You know what this thread needs?



Some Vanilla Ice.

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j193/csepics/vanilla_ice.jpg

na na na nanana

[nismodave]

Ahh....Good to see the Ford VS GM slapfight still going strong. :goof

[Crawlin]

Weirdly, it involves a Mopar guy? hahaha

[DR.FORD]

Jim, Bailouts (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=AjP&defl=en&q=define:Bailout&ei=xQs4S4nnF9WtlAeD6NH8Bw&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title&ved=0CAsQkAE) are loans to save one from financial doom. Notice in the linked definition, that it doesn't specify that to be a "bailout" that it has to come from the fed too.

loans (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=IjP&q=define%3Aloan&btnG=Search), which you erroneously termed "bailout", are obliquely similar in that both deal in lending money, however, "loans" don't imply impending financial doom otherwise.

Now, perhaps you think that a company who's stock fell to 1.13 is not a company on the edge of failure...but hey, that's you.

*sigh* ford guys :rolleyes: An oval is a perfect shape for their logo...it shows their obtuseness perfectly.

The point I was making by mentioning me, the "little" business owner, is that you cannot secure loans without means of paying the loaner back, in one way or another. How did Ford secure the loans (privately) with impending doom of bankruptcy?? Almost ALL businesses have been taking hits the last two years-look at the U.S. economy! THEY are the ones on top and making good-period. If Chrysler or GM could have secured private loans, don't you think they would have??

As for your comments about Ford Guys-be careful.
I take that as personal and if you wish to elaborate on how far your google skills got you compared to my common sense business skills and chance-taking abilities got me, lets have at it. It's real easy to sit behind a computer and try to look intelligent, why not step from behind it and DO something to be looked up to? This is only brought about by what I consider personal. BTW us Ford guys roll our eyes at Mopar boys hanging on their Hemi bullshit-and don't tell me Top Fuel, Funny car, etc. There isn't ANYTHING Mopar in those! How about the new Hemi's? Real barn-burners there!!:rolf

[juicedimpss]

Wow, I guess I bailed out too...
been in my own business 28 years,
took bailouts (loans) to buy houses,
took bailouts (loans) to buy shop equipment,
took bailouts (loans) to buy shop vehicles,
took "short" bailouts (notes) to turn investments (musclecars)

You know why???
It was CHEAPER than using my own money!!!!
It is also how business "works"!!
You call it "Dumb Luck"
I call it making the right decision at the right time.

Oh, and bottom line-Ford don't build cars with built-in exhaust leaks, but some of the people who support them have "common sense".
You won't get that on the internet, you'll only get what the media wants you to know!!:rolf
*cough* 460 exhaust manifold bolts made of lead *cough*








:rolf
sorry,i missed all the action and felt i had to get in on it.its surely winter,when does ice racing start?

[70 cutlass 442]

What some of you are failing to realize.... Ford may have taken short term loans to better their business.... they went to a bank, the bank thought it would be ok to loan them the cash, and they did....


GM ran out of options..... GM needed congress to approve a "loan" that consisted of OUR tax dollars..... where would GM be if congress never approved the "loans"

[Greg@GLD]

Get over it Prince... Ford's kicking ass and you don't like it. Boo fucking hoo... Ford's ALWAYS been the company that inspired the others. There would not be any Camaro, Challenger or Firebird had there not been a MUSTANG.
Ford has changed the automotive world several different times.

THE 5.0-LITER IS BACK: 2011 FORD MUSTANG GT LEADS CLASS WITH 412 HP, FUEL EFFICIENCY, CHASSIS DYNAMICS

The New 2011 Mustang GT 5.0L


* The new Mustang GT continues Ford’s powertrain offensive with an all-new 5.0-liter V-8, which uses advanced technology to deliver 412 horsepower and projected unsurpassed highway mileage of 25 mpg
* For 2011, Mustang GT adds specially tuned Electric Power Assist Steering (EPAS), 11.5-inch front and 11.8-inch rear vented disc brakes, and an enhanced suspension featuring an improved rear lower control arm and stiffened rear stabilizer bushings
* For enthusiasts, a Brembo brake package, with larger rotors and calipers from the Ford Shelby GT500® Mustang, unique 19-inch wheels and summer performance tires, is offered; new fender badges herald return of the 5.0-liter engine


DEARBORN, Mich., Dec. 28, 2009 – The 5.0 is back! The 2011 Ford Mustang GT arrives with an all-new advanced 5.0-liter V-8 engine, developed by a passionate cadre of enthusiastic engineers who rallied around the common goal of delivering more than 400 horsepower.

The modern 5.0-liter four-valve Twin Independent Variable Camshaft Timing (Ti-VCT) V-8 engine in the new Mustang GT will deliver 412 horsepower and 390 ft.-lb. of torque. At the same time, fuel economy is projected to be better than the previous model and unsurpassed in the segment.

“This all-new 5.0-liter engine is the next chapter in the development of the world-class Mustang powertrain portfolio,” said Derrick Kuzak, group vice president, Global Product Development. “It’s a thoroughly modern engine for the times, delivering the performance and fun-to-drive factor that enthusiasts want, while improving fuel economy.”

Coyote in the lobby
Many of the engineers on the development team have worked in the Engine and Electrical Engineering Building on the Dearborn, Mich., product development center campus. For years they walked past the original 5.0-liter V-8 Coyote Indy racing engine on display in the lobby, continually inspired by its mix of heritage, high technology and horsepower.

The powertrain development community had long wanted to develop a new 5.0-liter powertrain, with strategic discussions beginning in 2000. By 2007, the Mustang competitive landscape was beginning to change, a sign that the time was right for advancing the Mustang GT powertrain to world-class levels.

The team began 5.0-liter engine development with the objective of delivering 400-plus horsepower, on a timetable accelerated by 12 months without compromises in reliability, durability, fuel economy, or noise, vibration and harshness (NVH) control.




“Nearly all of the team members have worked on other high-profile powertrain programs,” said V-8 Engine Programs Manager Mike Harrison. “They all had a clear vision of the work required on their particular component or subsystem. Their passion for engines, racing and delivering every last ounce of performance throughout the engine speed range really demonstrated that they put their heads and their hearts into this powertrain.”



Development test engines and benchmarks included 5.0-liter blocks, employing different bore and stroke measurements, GT500 four-valve-per-cylinder heads and cams, various intake manifold runner configurations, differing compression ratios and a deep-sump oil pan. The team also evaluated Ford Racing’s 5.0-liter “Cammer” V-8 crate engine for transferable best practices.

Extensive computer-aided engineering (CAE) modeling, development engine experimentation and evaluation in combination with intricate machine work brought this promising, all-new configuration to jaw-dropping life in an accelerated time frame.



The result of this development is an “and” solution, not an “or.” 2011 Mustang buyers will enjoy the benefits of a powerful engine as well as responsible fuel economy.

Ti-VCT
A critical element in the 5.0-liter V-8’s ability to deliver 412 horsepower, with improved drivability, tractability and fuel economy over the 2010 Mustang GT powertrain, is enhanced Ti-VCT.

For a high-performance application, the team specified cam-torque-actuated variable camshaft timing. Using existing cam torque energy, with assistance from pressurized oil, meant that minimal upgrades to the oil pump were required, resulting in less parasitic drag. Increased volumetric and thermal efficiency gives faster Ti-VCT response at all engine speeds.

During the development phase, camshaft lift profile and port optimization started with higher-lift Ford Racing aftermarket units, modified for compatibility with various four-valve-per-cylinder heads. Extensive CAE and dynamometer testing was performed to fine-tune camshaft events and port flow for performance and fuel efficiency in conjunction with the variable camshaft timing.

The resulting all-new aluminum four-valve-per-cylinder heads feature a compact roller finger follower valvetrain layout leaving more room for high-flow ports for free-breathing performance. Head structure was designed to support higher cylinder head pressures and cross-flow cooling for sustained high-rpm use. Head bolt size was increased from 11 to 12 millimeters to contain the higher combustion pressures.

The aluminum block was developed for optimized windage and oil drainback under lateral conditions and high rpm, such as a track-day outing for an enthusiastic owner and driver. Increased main bearing bulkhead widths and nodular iron cross-bolted main bearing caps with upsized bolts were also employed to accommodate the significant performance increase.

An additional element is the increased capacity and baffling of the deep-sump stamped steel oil pan to enable sustained high-rpm use and offer the convenience of 10,000-mile oil change intervals. Piston-cooling jets also were incorporated for performance-minded customers and for faster oil warm-up on cold start.

Specially designed tubular exhaust headers were developed to maximize exhaust pulse separation and improve flow. A team analyst actually fabricated the tubular headers in his home workshop, bringing the CAE design to life.

Performance and fuel economy
The 412 horsepower and 390 ft.-lb. of torque delivered by the 2011 Mustang GT 5.0-liter V-8 represent significant increases versus the 2010 model year output levels.

The six-speed automatic transmission on the 2011 Mustang GT will deliver up to an estimated 25 mpg highway and 17 in the city. This is up from 23 mpg highway and 17 city for the 2010 model. Six-speed manual transmission Mustang GT models for 2011 are projected to deliver 24 mpg highway and 16 city, matching the 2010 model but delivering significantly more horsepower and performance feel.

2011 Mustang GT fuel economy is enabled by the Ti-VCT, the six-speed transmissions in automatic or manual variations, EPAS and an additional rear decklid seal to enhance aerodynamics.

Fuel economy also is aided by engineering a lightweight powertrain. The engine, as shipped, weighs just 430 pounds. This represents a weight savings of more than 20 percent versus the previous 5.0-liter offering. Lower mass can be attributed to the aluminum block and heads, the lightweight composite intake manifold, composite cam covers and hollow camshafts.

Improved driving dynamics
EPAS has made a dramatic contribution to Mustang GT driving dynamics, delivering quicker on-center steering response, increased effort at highway speeds and reduced effort required in low-speed parking maneuvers. EPAS allows specific tuning for the Mustang GT application.

The 2011 Mustang GT features an enhanced rear lower control arm to add stiffness, improve powertrain NVH control and sharpen handling. A stiffened rear stabilizer bar for better on-center steering is also included. Stabilizer bar diameters, spring rates and dampers all have been tuned for improved dynamics.

A Brembo brake package upgrade will be available for serious enthusiasts. This package includes 14-inch vented front discs from the GT500 Mustang, unique 19-inch alloy wheels and summer performance tires.

Added convenience content
For 2011, Mustang GT offers drivers several new convenience technologies, including:

* Standard message center
* Integrated blind spot mirrors
* MyKey™ programmable vehicle key
* Illuminated visors
* Universal garage door opener
* Sun visor storage

New look
From the 5.0 fender badges to the new engine cover, Mustang GT honors and continues the proud heritage of its predecessors. The speedometer increases to 160 mph and the tachometer redline advances from 6,500 to 7,000 rpm.

Three vibrant new colors will be added for 2011 including Yellow Blaze Tri-Coat, Race Red and Ingot Silver.

Improved NVH control and convertible rigidity
For 2011, Mustang GT benefits from across-the-board NVH improvements. These include additional sound-deadening material on either side of the instrument panel, an additional seal between door and rocker panel to reduce wind noise and a real wheel arch liner to reduce noise on gravel or wet surfaces.

Mustang GT convertible models feature enhanced structural rigidity, with lateral stiffness improved by 12 percent versus the 2010 model. A tower-to-tower front strut brace is now standard, and the V-brace has been stiffened by adding gussets. The secondary crossmember also has been stiffened while a front Z-brace has been added, connecting primary and secondary crossmembers. A-pillar stiffening foam also has been added to increase rigidity.

“This powertrain honors Mustang’s heritage by raising the bar on performance while increasing fuel economy,” said Barb Samardzich, vice president, Powertrain Development. “For enthusiasts, such as the passionate members of the 5.0-liter V-8 team, it’s like having your cake and eating it, too.”

[07ROUSHSTG3]

Get over it Prince... Ford's kicking ass and you don't like it. Boo fucking hoo... .”

yeah, jealousy is a stinky cologne.

more pics:
http://www.themustangnews.com/carnews_09/1209-2011-mustang-50-303.htm

[Greg@GLD]

How about those BRAKES!!!??!!! :thumbsup

The original 5.0's had power, but no stoppage, the brakes were a joke. These brakes will suck your eyeballs out, have them on my Shelby and my Cobra.

This is awesome news for any true Ford fan.

And you guys haven't seen anything yet... TRUST ME.

[Bobby "Big Daddy" Flay]

Get over it Prince... Ford's kicking ass and you don't like it. Boo fucking hoo... Ford's ALWAYS been the company that inspired the others. There would not be any Camaro, Challenger or Firebird had there not been a MUSTANG.
Ford has changed the automotive world several different times.

I do agree on this. For the smaller cars in the the 60's the Mustang started it. However, the GTO kicked it off for the big guys.


* For enthusiasts, a Brembo brake package, with larger rotors and calipers from the Ford Shelby GT500® Mustang, unique 19-inch wheels and summer performance tires, is offered; new fender badges herald return of the 5.0-liter engine

If you didn't know already, car manufacturers have been using aftermarket perfomance companies to produce products for stock vehicles for quite a while. However, if I remember right Brembo was putting brakes on a Cobalt, a 23k vehicle.



The modern 5.0-liter four-valve Twin Independent Variable Camshaft Timing (Ti-VCT) V-8 engine in the new Mustang GT will deliver 412 horsepower and 390 ft.-lb. of torque. At the same time, fuel economy is projected to be better than the previous model and unsurpassed in the segment.

Again, Ford is not new with this technology. Honda began with this back in the late '80's. Way to try and catch up.


Six-speed manual transmission Mustang GT models for 2011 are projected to deliver 24 mpg highway and 16 city,

Back in 93, GM was utilizing a 6-speed manual in the v8 F-body cars, not to forget that it was also used in the Vette and Viper. Those f-body cars with the 6-speed were getting mid 20's then. 17 years later Ford decides, "oh, maybe get better fuel acconomy for our highly loved v8 Mustangs too".

[Exitspeed]

You know what this thread needs?



Some Vanilla Ice.

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j193/csepics/vanilla_ice.jpg

na na na nanana

Damn beat me to it. I'd like to add...ROLLIN in my 5.0 with my rag top down so my hair can blow.
http://www.i-mockery.com/minimocks/coolasice/3.gif

[Greg@GLD]

I do agree on this. For the smaller cars in the the 60's the Mustang started it. However, the GTO kicked it off for the big guys.



If you didn't know already, car manufacturers have been using aftermarket perfomance companies to produce products for stock vehicles for quite a while. However, if I remember right Brembo was putting brakes on a Cobalt, a 23k vehicle.




Again, Ford is not new with this technology. Honda began with this back in the late '80's. Way to try and catch up.



Back in 93, GM was utilizing a 6-speed manual in the v8 F-body cars, not to forget that it was also used in the Vette and Viper. Those f-body cars with the 6-speed were getting mid 20's then. 17 years later Ford decides, "oh, maybe get better fuel acconomy for our highly loved v8 Mustangs too".

You guys are REALLY bothered by this! Too funny...

[-stew-]

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/stewsquarenuts/image003.jpg

[07ROUSHSTG3]

another good article:

http://www.motortrend.com/auto_shows/detroit/2010/2011_ford_mustang_gt/index.html

[STANMAN]

I wonder how the pistons will hold up, it doesn't say they are forged.

[Crawlin]

Who remembers that Car Craft article that had two pics....

Sterotype of a camaro owner and stereotype of a mustang owner?

those were funny pics to laugh at ourselves

[Bobby "Big Daddy" Flay]

You guys are REALLY bothered by this! Too funny...

No....not really. Just stating what has been done before. All of these "new" inventions for Ford are making you guys blow your loads all over this vehicle Ford should of made years ago.

If I could pull it off right now, i'd go for one of these myself. So no, i'm not biased.

Hopefully they don't make these look like a Butterscotch Dillybar also.

[GTSLOW]

Give the Ford Vag's some credit. They've been taking it for a looong time!!! I'd HOPE by now Ford would build something to compete.

[70 cutlass 442]

Give the Ford Vag's some credit. They've been taking it for a looong time!!! I'd HOPE by now Ford would build something to compete.

something that can compete? :rolf

Thats what all you GM guys thoguht, then the overweight camaro that so many waited years for gets out performed by its underpowered rival... :durr

[STANMAN]

Give the Ford Vag's some credit. They've been taking it for a looong time!!! I'd HOPE by now Ford would build something to compete.

Taking what for a long time? From 02-09 there was no competition, remember? If anything, GM owners who wanted pony cars have been taking it for a "long time", like 7 years:rolf

[GTSLOW]

Taking what for a long time? From 02-09 there was no competition, remember? If anything, GM owners who wanted pony cars have been taking it for a "long time", like 7 years:rolf

True CTS-V, Vettes, GTOs, and G8's all ate up anything Ford attempted to spit out. From 1993-2002 there was no chance for Ford either. But hey keep trying to save yourselves.

[GTSLOW]

something that can compete? :rolf

Thats what all you GM guys thoguht, then the overweight camaro that so many waited years for gets out performed by its underpowered rival... :durr

Last I heard that lil overweight V6 Camaro was eating up V8 Mustang GTs. Now that's pretty sad. :punch:

Insert attempt to save thread below:

[88Nightmare]

I see the 2002-2009 camaro-less years as a chance for ford to catch up.

What HP numbers were camaros putting down in 2002?

What HP numbers were mustangs putting down in 2009?


And even now, this new 5.0 will produce about 412hp.... still less then the Camaro. Give it a few months... We will once again hear the "GM has more displacement" cry.

[VroomPshhTsi]

GOD I love Ford vs. GM threads!!! Let's shoot for 20 pages... keep it rollin'

LOL @ the tags for this thread

[Crawlin]

If you are gonna do that, we'll split the thread and the informative post can keep on rolling about the new engine.

[Prince Valiant]

How did Ford secure the loans (privately) with impending doom of bankruptcy??Because they did them years ago, back when credit was still easy, before the bottom fell out. Impending bankruptcy wasn't the case then. They secured the loans then recognizing they'd be able to negotiate better terms with a better credit rating then if they waited until they were in dire straits as ford was loosing billions upon billions yearly...

Their obtaining private credit in late 08 and 09 had nothing to do with the strength of the organization in 08 or 09. Want proof? Again, look at their stock prices for an indication of where they were then.



I take that as personal and if you wish to elaborate on how far your google skills got you compared to my common sense business skills and chance-taking abilities got me, lets have at it.:rolleyes:

Where ford was, and is, has nothing to do with my "google skills" or your "common sense business skills."

Facts have nothing to do with either of us. You may want to think Ford wasn't in the same boat as GM (*alert* continued boating terminology!), and not in need of a bailout. But the facts don't bare this scenario out.

It's real easy to sit behind a computer and try to look intelligent, why not step from behind it and DO something to be looked up to? Okay, two things...if it's so easy, why don't more people do it? Hint: it has nothing to do with "google skills."

Two, it's pretty presumptuous of you to think I don't do something "to be looked up to" :)


This is only brought about by what I consider personal. BTW us Ford guys roll our eyes at Mopar boys hanging on their Hemi bullshit-and don't tell me Top Fuel, Funny car, etc. There isn't ANYTHING Mopar in those! How about the new Hemi's? Real barn-burners there!!:rolfWhat does this have to do with Ford's financial condition? Who said anything about hemi this or mopar that? That's right nothing and no one! But I get it...bench racing is fun, and is far preferable to tedious debates of the finances of individual companies.

But it's that type of bench racing is what I generally cause the most tears for the ford guys, btw.


I think I've hit on a new medical diagnosis...I'll call it "ford delusionitis." I can't decide if the cause is a specific exposure time to exhaust fumes from the hypothetical built in ford exhaust leak, of if we've actually found a symptom of too much circle jerking.

Here's a classic symptom of "Ford Delusionitis"---first, delusional grandeur of all things ford:

Boo fucking hoo... Ford's ALWAYS been the company that inspired the others. There would not be any Camaro, Challenger or Firebird had there not been a MUSTANG. See? Apparently there would have been no compact performance cars that morphed into the now traditional pony car were it not for ford! Of course, this is clearly false...

I mean, the fact that performance compact cars were gaining steady popularity long before the mustang hit the market is just one evidence against this.

Another blow against this statement is the fact that the mustang wasn't even the first of what we call "pony cars" today, to the market! (For the record, the plymouth barracuda came to market a scant week or two prior, and that was hardly the first of the performance compacts)

It's like believing that were it not for chrysler, the world wouldn't have cupholders, rear window washers, or pop up headlights...or any number of things that would have obviously come along had they not had the first. BTW, why am I using "no-duh" dumb inventions? Because the mustang is one of them....were it not for ford, someone else would have made one!

[STANMAN]

Because they did them years ago, back when credit was still easy, before the bottom fell out. Impending bankruptcy wasn't the case then. They secured the loans then recognizing they'd be able to negotiate better terms with a better credit rating then if they waited until they were in dire straits as ford was loosing billions upon billions yearly...

Their obtaining private credit in late 08 and 09 had nothing to do with the strength of the organization in 08 or 09. Want proof? Again, look at their stock prices for an indication of where they were then.

:rolleyes:

Where ford was, and is, has nothing to do with my "google skills" or your "common sense business skills."

Facts have nothing to do with either of us. You may want to think Ford wasn't in the same boat as GM (*alert* continued boating terminology!), and not in need of a bailout. But the facts don't bare this scenario out.
Okay, two things...if it's so easy, why don't more people do it? Hint: it has nothing to do with "google skills."

Two, it's pretty presumptuous of you to think I don't do something "to be looked up to" :)

What does this have to do with Ford's financial condition? Who said anything about hemi this or mopar that? That's right nothing and no one! But I get it...bench racing is fun, and is far preferable to tedious debates of the finances of individual companies.

But it's that type of bench racing is what I generally cause the most tears for the ford guys, btw.


I think I've hit on a new medical diagnosis...I'll call it "ford delusionitis." I can't decide if the cause is a specific exposure time to exhaust fumes from the hypothetical built in ford exhaust leak, of if we've actually found a symptom of too much circle jerking.

Here's a classic symptom of "Ford Delusionitis"---first, delusional grandeur of all things ford:
See? Apparently there would have been no compact performance cars that morphed into the now traditional pony car were it not for ford! Of course, this is clearly false...

I mean, the fact that performance compact cars were gaining steady popularity long before the mustang hit the market is just one evidence against this.

Another blow against this statement is the fact that the mustang wasn't even the first of what we call "pony cars" today, to the market! (For the record, the plymouth barracuda came to market a scant week or two prior, and that was hardly the first of the performance compacts)

It's like believing that were it not for chrysler, the world wouldn't have cupholders, rear window washers, or pop up headlights...or any number of things that would have obviously come along had they not had the first. BTW, why am I using "no-duh" dumb inventions? Because the mustang is one of them....were it not for ford, someone else would have made one!

Without Iococca we wouldn't have had the Mustang or the "K" car, two models that did very good things for both companies. Can we all agree on that at least:headbang

[88Nightmare]

but Chris.... don't you know? Ford invented the automobile and everything to do with the automobile!!!! :punch:

[FoxStang]

Anyone bringing up the fact that Ford started restructuring several years ago?

I want to see all of the big three succeed with quality products. However, to argue that Ford's improved situation came entirely from "dumb luck" is rather absurd.

[Prince Valiant]

However, to argue that Ford's improved situation came entirely from "dumb luck" is rather absurd.And no one is arguing that. But to say that the big 3 weren't all in the same precarious financial situation in 08 (ie, teetering on the verge of bankruptcy), is spot on.

The fact that they were in a position to avoid federal loans was actually "dumb luck"

[STANMAN]

but Chris.... don't you know? Ford invented the automobile and everything to do with the automobile!!!! :punch:

They didn't invent the automobile, they just invented the production system that every manufacturer of commonly produced mass products still uses to this day. KanBan systems, Kaizen, 5S, all the current gospels of manufacturing are commonly thought to be brought to us by the great minds at Toyota. But where did Toyota go to study the groundwork of all of "their" systems? Ford. Not GM, not Chrysler. Sorry, but it's true.

So you're right, they didn't invent the car, they just laid the groundwork for the manufacturing giant that won 2 world wars and continues to make us the superpower that we are. Kind of more important than inventing the car when you look at the bigger picture, is it not?

[Voodoo Chick]

Who remembers that Car Craft article that had two pics....

Sterotype of a camaro owner and stereotype of a mustang owner?

those were funny pics to laugh at ourselves


Anybody have a copy of those pics to post?

[88Nightmare]

They didn't invent the automobile, they just invented the production system that every manufacturer of commonly produced mass products still uses to this day. KanBan systems, Kaizen, 5S, all the current gospels of manufacturing are commonly thought to be brought to us by the great minds at Toyota. But where did Toyota go to study the groundwork of all of "their" systems? Ford. Not GM, not Chrysler. Sorry, but it's true.

So you're right, they didn't invent the car, they just laid the groundwork for the manufacturing giant that won 2 world wars and continues to make us the superpower that we are. Kind of more important than inventing the car when you look at the bigger picture, is it not?

On the contrary, Bob, Ford did NOT invent mass production. They simply improved upon it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile#Production


The large-scale, production-line manufacturing of affordable automobiles was debuted by Ransom Olds at his Oldsmobile factory in 1902. This concept was greatly expanded by Henry Ford, beginning in 1914.

Ford simply expanded on it. The groundwork was originally laid by one of the original founders of GM :thumbsup

[STANMAN]

On the contrary, Bob, Ford did NOT invent mass production. They simply improved upon it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile#Production



Ford simply expanded on it. The groundwork was originally laid by one of the original founders of GM :thumbsup

Wikipedia? That's where we are going for factual information? Give me 5 minutes, I will change the page to show Ford DID invent it:rolf


Anyway, Ford didn't invent mass production, they simply improved upon it? What was "it" that they improved upon? Production? How did they improve upon it? By doing it in large quantities instead of one at a time? Sounds like mass production to me. I mean I am sure LOTS of people sat around before there was such a thing as "mass production" and thought to themselves "boy, if I could make more of 'insert product here' in less time, I could probably make A LOT more money", does that mean that all THOSE people "invented" it? I think not.

[Crawlin]

basically from what it looks like, they(Ford) made people stand in one spot and do repetitive work and that was the huge benfit of their ideas. Made them work instead of walking around. Kind of like what you said about Toyota... they followed a plan that reduced the number of steps a person took each day in order to save time/money. and they used less personnel and more machinery to help them with the production, which would definitely be an advantage of building upon something 12 years later.

Not saying one or the other is better, just pointing out what the article states as some of the improvements.

[88Nightmare]

And your information came from where? I forgot that brain ya got is better then any search engine man has to offer.


None-the-less... Ford is not God in the automotive world. I'm sure other companies built upon whatever Ford has established.

[STANMAN]

And your information came from where? I forgot that brain ya got is better then any search engine man has to offer.


None-the-less... Ford is not God in the automotive world. I'm sure other companies built upon whatever Ford has established.

Business school and being Six Sigma green belt certified. Much more reliable than Wikipedia I can assure you.

[88Nightmare]

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l44/88nightmare/bob.gif

[Voodoo Chick]

At this point, who cares? Ford, GM, Chrysler........they ALL had a hand in making the country what it is, and each one offers some truly spectacular cars. Why waste time with this make vs. make crap? It's getting OLD, wouldn't you say? For the record, Ransom Eli Olds WAS the first, but so? Does it really matter at this point? BTW, my info source was not wikipedia, but numerous books about Oldsmobiles, for which I have a soft spot in my heart. But, in keeping with the original intent of this thread, that 5.0 really is beautiful.

[STANMAN]

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l44/88nightmare/bob.gif

Hmmm, I built my SRT to the hilt before I even started modding my Mustang, and I owned an 89 Camaro RS vert earlier this year. My 1st car was an 85 Monte Carlo, and the 1st 2 "muscle cars" I owned were a 70 Challenger and a 73 Duster. The Mustang I currently own is the 1st one I ever owned. I must be the worst nutswinger ever, perhaps you could show me how it's done properly?

[88Nightmare]

And from what or who's nutsack do I swing from?

[Bobby "Big Daddy" Flay]

And from what or who's nutsack do I swing from?

No one. Your just showing how stupid and ignorant you are becoming. Take a step out of the thread.

[07ROUSHSTG3]

i will try to make an attempt at saving this thread also. here goes.


so what is the story on the hyper pistons?? why wouldn't they use forged pistons if they have forged crank and rods?? aren't hyperaifdlksd whatever pistions inferior to forged?? if so, what sort of horsepower numbers and boost can an oil cooled hyper piston hold up to usually??

[DR.FORD]

Their obtaining private credit in late 08 and 09 had nothing to do with the strength of the organization in 08 or 09. Want proof? Again, look at their stock prices for an indication of where they were then.

:rolleyes:
Read what you typed again-
Ford MUST be gods to get private loans when they couldn't show how they would pay it back!! I think the lenders could and would have looked at stock value before borrowing money to them, among MANY other income numbers and AVAILABLE funds Ford already had.

Where ford was, and is, has nothing to do with my "google skills" or your "common sense business skills."
True, but you consistantly use media print for your debates-again, the media has a track record at times of telling you what they want you to know. Remember, we are in a "Economic upswing", just ask all the unemployed people!!:rolf How did Ford Fix their problems so fast? In economic struggle??
Maybe, just maybe, they weren't as bad off as even "they" wanted you, or their competition, to know. But then again you would have to think "out of the box" and view it from a business standpoint to see it as a possibility.

Facts have nothing to do with either of us. You may want to think Ford wasn't in the same boat as GM (*alert* continued boating terminology!), and not in need of a bailout. But the facts don't bare this scenario out.

Read above-again!
Okay, two things...if it's so easy, why don't more people do it? Hint: it has nothing to do with "google skills."

It takes NO BRAINS to repeat what you read, but it does take common sense to NOT believe everything that you read, and think of other possibilities.

Two, it's pretty presumptuous of you to think I don't do something "to be looked up to" :)

Call me what you will, but I would not be where I am today (nor would many others) by answering all questions with answers anyone could look up. The BEST information is rarely divulged-ask anyone at the top of their game if they "tell all".

What does this have to do with Ford's financial condition? Who said anything about hemi this or mopar that?

You did-about the Hemi making 3000hp in the 70's with a stock block and crank. They might have-for one or two passes!

That's right nothing and no one! But I get it...bench racing is fun, and is far preferable to tedious debates of the finances of individual companies.

But it's that type of bench racing is what I generally cause the most tears for the ford guys, btw.

You wanna bench race about my car, sunshine?
I haven't shed a tear yet.
But I bet there is an article somewhere about a Lil' Red express truck beating a stock '88 Thunderbird-get busy lookin'!!:rolf:goof


I think I've hit on a new medical diagnosis...I'll call it "ford delusionitis." I can't decide if the cause is a specific exposure time to exhaust fumes from the hypothetical built in ford exhaust leak, of if we've actually found a symptom of too much circle jerking.

Here's a classic symptom of "Ford Delusionitis"---first, delusional grandeur of all things ford:

I like ALL cars, I just know what is best!

See? Apparently there would have been no compact performance cars that morphed into the now traditional pony car were it not for ford! Of course, this is clearly false...

I mean, the fact that performance compact cars were gaining steady popularity long before the mustang hit the market is just one evidence against this.

Thats true, Falcons and Comets were around since 1960:rolf

Another blow against this statement is the fact that the mustang wasn't even the first of what we call "pony cars" today, to the market! (For the record, the plymouth barracuda came to market a scant week or two prior, and that was hardly the first of the performance compacts)

Once again, read above-compacts being denoted as "subframe" cars, and performance being available with a V-8.
I think a better way of phrasing would be "the first pony car worth owning, 'cause the Barracuda was fukkin' ugly"!!
America thought so, look at the sales numbers, fact man:goof

It's like believing that were it not for chrysler, the world wouldn't have cupholders, rear window washers, or pop up headlights...or any number of things that would have obviously come along had they not had the first. BTW, why am I using "no-duh" dumb inventions? Because the mustang is one of them....were it not for ford, someone else would have made one!

Like Duntov made the first performance hemi as we know it-out of a FORD FLATHEAD!!!!!!!

You make it perfectly clear how you feel about Ford and Mustangs in general, which you are entitled to your opinion. Don't come to a Ford topic, talk some facts and some smack, and expect not to get retaliation.
Or are you hiding the deep. dark secret that you are butt hurt about Ford trucks being the best ever?!:goof

[DR.FORD]

Like Duntov made the first performance hemi as we know it-out of a FORD FLATHEAD!!!!!!!

You make it perfectly clear how you feel about Ford and Mustangs in general, which you are entitled to your opinion. Don't come to a Ford topic, talk some facts and some smack, and expect not to get retaliation.
Or are you hiding the deep. dark secret that you are butt hurt about Ford trucks being the best ever?!:goof

Oh, and it is also fact that I am not good with computers and seperating quotes!!:)

[juicedimpss]

Oh, and it is also fact that I am not good with computers and seperating quotes!!:)

:rolf
sorry,but that made my morning

[Dr.Buick]

Long and short of the matter, is Ford is for people that can't spell Chevrolet.

[Got Boost]

Long and short of the matter, is Ford is for people that can't spell Chevrolet.Then who was AMC and GMC for LOL

[Dr.Buick]

Then who was AMC and GMC for LOL
people who knew texting was coming out in 50 years :rolf

[Got Boost]

Business school and being Six Sigma green belt certified. Much more reliable than Wikipedia I can assure you.Correct me if Im wrong .. Dident the Japs come up with the principles of Lean Mfg...Which most Mfg. are starting to duplicate?

[Exitspeed]

I can't believe you guys (muscle car people) (No. I am not a muscle care guy) still argue about this.

http://www.stimpco.com/carpix/arguingOnTheInternet.gif

[-stew-]

I can't believe you guys (muscle car people) (No. I am not a muscle care guy) still argue about this.



We all can't be one of the cool kids like you and argue DC vs. Marvel.

[Exitspeed]

We all can't be one of the cool kids like you and argue DC vs. Marvel.

Don't try and turn this around on me. I'm not arguing shit in this thread.


And Marvel ftw...duh!

[DR.FORD]

I can't believe you guys (muscle car people) (No. I am not a muscle care guy) still argue about this.

http://www.stimpco.com/carpix/arguingOnTheInternet.gif

You know, you are absolutely right.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, except Dr. Buick:rolf

[DR.FORD]

Long and short of the matter, is Ford is for people that can't spell Chevrolet.

Sooo, you found spellcheck for this quote!:devil

[animal]

So is the bottom going to fall the f&*k out on the '10 4.6's as one would expect? I'd love to scoop one of those up on the cheap.

[07ROUSHSTG3]

So is the bottom going to fall the f&*k out on the '10 4.6's as one would expect? I'd love to scoop one of those up on the cheap.

I think the value of anything 05 or newer are going to plummet. the only thing going for the 05-09 are the looks. i am not crazy about the new body style. the interior is nice and the cars are a bit more refined, but personally i like the look of the 05-09 better?!?! t

he 2v's really can't get much lower in value than they already are, so people that own them do not need to worry.

[animal]

Not worried about my 2v. I want a 10 gt in the worst way... i think a 4.6 '10 gt could be had MUCH cheaper once the 5.0 is out :)

[07ROUSHSTG3]

Not worried about my 2v. I want a 10 gt in the worst way... i think a 4.6 '10 gt could be had MUCH cheaper once the 5.0 is out :)

i am sure of it.

[-stew-]

i am sure of it.


I don't think so. People are still buying these cars as cars, not as toys/hot rods. I don't think that '11 GT is "better" than a '10 GT will effect fair market value for a while.

[Dr.Buick]

Sooo, you found spellcheck for this quote!:devil
NO had my kid do it. :rolf

[Waver]

Not worried about my 2v. I want a 10 gt in the worst way... i think a 4.6 '10 gt could be had MUCH cheaper once the 5.0 is out :)

Well dealers will probably be willing to discount the '10 mustangs when the 5.0 is out, as well as Ford offering some really good cash rebates and financing rates. They did this for the 08's and the 09's. Believe it or not, there were still a few 07-08 Shelby GT's and Bullet models available for sale this summer. In fact, quite a few people took advantage of that.

[DRK]

And from what or who's nutsack do I swing from?

your moms!

are you still driving her cars BTW?

[88Nightmare]

your moms!

are you still driving her cars BTW?

wouldn't that be a vag swinger then? :rolf

[STANMAN]

Correct me if Im wrong .. Dident the Japs come up with the principles of Lean Mfg...Which most Mfg. are starting to duplicate?

Re-read my posts, it explains Lean in detail.

[BOSS LX]

Long and short of the matter, is Ford is for people that can't spell Chevrolet.

Marry Christmas!

[Dr.Buick]

Marry Christmas!
:rolf

[BOSS LX]

:rolf

:thumbsup

[Dr.Buick]

:thumbsup

I will be able to read those 100 dollar bills i will be taking! :wooo

[BOSS LX]

I will be able to read those 100 dollar bills i will be taking! :wooo

Say whaaat?

[BOSS LX]

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/2895/koolaidman.jpg (http://img705.imageshack.us/i/koolaidman.jpg/)

[Dr.Buick]

I was told you want some of my car, lol:banana1:

[BOSS LX]

I was told you want some of my car, lol:banana1:

For your sake, I hope to god your 106mm car will have nothing to worry about! :thumbsup

[Dr.Buick]

For your sake, I hope to god your 106mm car will have nothing to worry about! :thumbsup
I was not the one calling people out:wooo and saying wisconsin fastest street cars lol

It was a fun conversation at Firestone

[BOSS LX]

I was not the one calling people out:wooo and saying wisconsin fastest street cars lol

Your source is wrong!:rolf And I speak the truth. Larry stirring the pot? No way.

[Dr.Buick]

Your source is wrong!:rolf And I speak the truth. Larry stirring the pot? No way.
It is what it is. Its normal shit talking lol. I could care less. I just think it's funny.:thumbsup

[BOSS LX]

It is what it is. Its your normal shit talking lol. I could care less. I just think it's funny.:thumbsup

I am cool with shiit talking, as long as everyone involved is cool with it. I gotta stop up by Larry soon and give him some more ammo!

[Dr.Buick]

I am cool with shiit talking, as long as everyone involved is cool with it. I gotta stop up by Larry soon and give him some more ammo!
it's all good.:banana

[Prince Valiant]

Read what you typed again-
Ford MUST be gods to get private loans when they couldn't show how they would pay it back!! I think the lenders could and would have looked at stock value before borrowing money to them, among MANY other income numbers and AVAILABLE funds Ford already had.When ford secured the agreements for future loans, they were in considerably better shape. Pretty simple.

Look up ford's cash on hand and monthly cost as late as dec. 08...they were on a razor thin margin, ie, on the verge of bankruptcy. If they had not secured the line of credit prior to the credit crunch, they were every bit as screwed.


True, but you consistantly use media print for your debates-again, the media has a track record at times of telling you what they want you to know. Remember, we are in a "Economic upswing", just ask all the unemployed people!! How did Ford Fix their problems so fast? In economic struggle??I'm not using other peoples opinion or commentary...people are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

Now, you ask the question of "how did ford fix their problems so fast?"...a couple things: 1) I don't think ford, or any company is "in the clear." 2) Ford has aggressively restructured several times to decrease their operating cost...if you notice, a big part of their last quarterly profit came simply from restructuring their debts. That's not the only way that their outlook has improved, as they have gained market share...but were it not for an aggressive resturturing (ie, selling/looking to sell assets such as volvo, rover, jaguar, etc) as well as new deals with the unions, Ford would be what? Bankrupt.

And dare I say it...their aggressive restructuring would appear to be similar to a company in "bankruptcy?"

It takes NO BRAINS to repeat what you read, but it does take common sense to NOT believe everything that you read, and think of other possibilities.Your right, the intelligence of someone simply parroting another doesn't have to be high. But, who's saying what I'm saying?

Hell, if there's any echo here, it's coming from the blue-oval boys.


[quote=Prince Valiant]What does this have to do with Ford's financial condition? Who said anything about hemi this or mopar that?

You did-about the Hemi making 3000hp in the 70's with a stock block and crank. They might have-for one or two passes!Well, it was an answer to the question put forth by the original poster:

What other engine in history can make 2500+ hp on a OEM block, crank, and heads?
The fact is, plenty of engines have been there, done that. Gave a pretty concrete and early example of such.

That wasn't a mopar vs. ford thing...it was just correcting (or trying to, at least) the original posters "ford delusionitis," THAT, btw, lead him to conclude this about the 412 coyote 5.0

Sometimes it is worth the wait! Nothing like a stock GT to have a 1000+hp capable LONG BLOCK in it!
Yep. Sure will :rolf


You wanna bench race about my car, sunshine? lol, not really. But all too willing to bench race ford vs mopar, any and every day :thumbsup


Thats true, Falcons and Comets were around since 1960Well, if you think 2 speed, six cylinder comets were "performance compacts", then ford delusionitis has hit you hard.

A better example of a performance compact would have been a studebaker lark, or the early valiants w/ hyper pak engines, and the pontiac tempest.

But hey, we know if the falcon and comet hadn't come out in 1960 with a <100hp 6 banger, 2 speed, then studebaker wouldn't have had a v8 compact come out in 59 :durr

I think a better way of phrasing would be "the first pony car worth owning, 'cause the Barracuda was fukkin' ugly"!!
America thought so, look at the sales numbers, fact manI don't disagree that the 64 1/2 mustang is a more desireable pony car vs a 64 baracuda...better looking and with a hi-po 271hp 289 available, better performing (though most the mundane version w/ 150hp and 225 hp <all from memory, so numbers might not be 100% accurate> were pretty evenly matched with 2bbl/4bbl 273's, provided the fords had a 3 speed).

Although, was the mustang really the first? Was it really responsible for all pony cars to follow as stated by Greg? Nope and Nien, respectively.


You make it perfectly clear how you feel about Ford and Mustangs in generalApparently not. Where do I say I dislike either ford or the mustang. Just because I've disagreed that the stock long block of the upcoming ford mustang GT is unlikely to hit 1000hp on the stock long block, or that ford wasn't periously close to bankruptcy and were bailedout by private loans that they had fortuitusly obtained, doesn't mean I hate ford and mustangs.

Delusional thinking brought on by blind fanboism, yes. Ford or Mustang, no.


Don't come to a Ford topic, talk some facts and some smack, and expect not to get retaliation. :alcoholic okay....:rolleyes:



Or are you hiding the deep. dark secret that you are butt hurt about Ford trucks being the best ever?!:goofactually, I got the secret ford recipe to making the best ever truck here:

Ford's recipe for a great truck:
1. Make heavy.
2. Copy look of Ram
3. Make it underpowered
4. Overate it's tow capacity
5. Make up crap about some "bed bounce test" somethin'or'nother

Sounds like a great truck to me! :thumbsup:durr

[BOSS LX]

So with the new release, I guess my info was wrong on the internals. The motor will still be a stout piece, and there will be a long block in the mustang that will hit that mark.
Like I said before, I myself really don't care about stock numbers. All I know is there will be some fast ASSS mustangs out there running a whole bunch of stock parts.

I will end this by just saying that it sure is good to be a Ford guy these days!!!:devil:devil:devil

[animal]

were it not for an aggressive resturturing (ie, selling/looking to sell assets such as volvo, rover, jaguar, etc) as well as new deals with the unions, Ford would be what? Bankrupt.

And dare I say it...their aggressive restructuring would appear to be similar to a company in "bankruptcy?"

I guess I don't get it, what is wrong with restructuring to prevent taking a bailout or declaring bankruptcy? Restructuring aggressive or otherwise they didn't take that govt bailout. I get the feeling like restructuring debt is being made out to be a "cheater" move. Why couldn't the other manufacturers do that too rather than taking the government bailout if that's all it took? Am I alone in thinking an entity (individual or company) that solves their own problems is (at least morally) above one that simply declares bankruptcy? Maybe I'm missing something :confused

Does any of this really have anything to do with a return of the 5.0 though? Such hostility in this thread. Sometimes it appears that good news about a ford car doesn't even belong on bcm anymore.

Side note: Did you really make comments about spelling things Jim? :rolf

[Voodoo Chick]

All the arguing aside, just today driving home from work, I saw a new Mustang, a new Camaro, and a new Challenger........All three were BEAUTIFUL, and damn is it great to see them all alive and well.....I'm just thrilled that real muscle cars still exist, despite everything going on with The Big Three, and all the odds against them. Personally, I love 'em all.

[BOSS LX]

But all too willing to bench race ford vs mopar, any and every day :thumbsup



:rolf:rolf:rolf

[Dr.Buick]

Ford trucks being the best ever?!:goof


Do we want to talk about the 6.0l diesel? :wooo:rolf:banana1::banana

[Greg@GLD]

I don't disagree that the 64 1/2 mustang is a more desireable pony car vs a 64 baracuda...better looking and with a hi-po 271hp 289 available, better performing (though most the mundane version w/ 150hp and 225 hp <all from memory, so numbers might not be 100% accurate> were pretty evenly matched with 2bbl/4bbl 273's, provided the fords had a 3 speed).

Although, was the mustang really the first? Was it really responsible for all pony cars to follow as stated by Greg? Nope and Nien, respectively.



Reality can't be defined. it's a perception of the individual. One person's reality is another persons delusions.

You can look at things this way sir... based upon sales and public perception, the Mustang caused a huge sensation in the automotive world. Sales numbers were incredibly successful. I won't mention your "example" of a ponycar other than say I'm quite sure you might be the only person on the planet that even remembers that car. Later in the 60's, when they dropped the "Barra" it was one of my favorites and possibly one of the coolest looking cars ever. My dad had one. Fond memories.

Anyway, so.. back in the 60's, GM sat on it's heels watching. Ford sold MILLIONS of Mustangs. No Camaros or Firebirds were sold in 1964, 1965 or 1966. They did provide a great answer in that the Camaro and Firebird were awesome cars, well styled and very desireable. (I had a '67 Firebird 400 with a muncie 4-speed)
A "pony car war" ensued. Those of us old enough to remember and be able to buy these cars enjoyed the era, until the middle 70's, when it looked like we'd never see a "muscle car' ever again. Mustang II ??? :rolf :punch:

So you fast-forward... GM comes out with a "real" muscle car, the GN. Granted, it was based off your grampa's regal, but it was fast. It was also expensive.

Ford brings back the 302. There's light at the end of tunnel. The 5.0 becomes the new "smallblock Chevy" (More on that later!) and the aftermarket explodes. Quick and cheap horsepower returns. A Mustang LX 5.0 stripper could be had on the cheap and for years, Ford kicked GM's ass. 5.0's ruled. (You don't suppose that's what has these haters all in a tizzy do ya??) :devil
Again, GM looks at the sales and the sensation FORD created, and finally GM came out with a series of great cars, starting with in the 1993 Camaro and Firebird and the horsepower was there.
Mustangs were turds (Stock) but that didn't stop anybody from modding them and mopping up on smug F-Body owners. I'm sure Chris can recall those Mustang versus F-Body shootouts we used to have at GLD. I seem to recall the races being pretty good on both sides, as NOBODY showed up with a bone stock example and tried to "compete".

So anyway, you have these "great" GM cars... Too bad the public didn't agree. Mustangs sales, even in the "lean years" continued to top the F-body cars combined. Of course, some of the weenies will say how a lot of them were 6-ers. Whatever. Facts are facts. One brand thrived, two were killed off. That's right. there were no examples to "compete" with Ford.
Regardless, Ford continued to offer some great cars. Cobras, Mach 1's, GT500's... AWESOME!!

Poor Brand X fans... Sure, you could buy a Corvette or a Viper. Most of the people reading this are not in that income bracket however.
So then Ford does the Retro Thing with the Mustang. It was a grand-slam, nobody can argue that fact. Once again the "others guys" sit back and watch while it's all-Ford, all the time. :headbang

GM takes a great historic car the GTO, (Which I am a huge fan of and have owned several and plan to get another REAL GTO in the near future) and attaches the name to a car not worthy of wearing the name. We see how that went. :rolleyes:
Mopar takes another great historic Musclecar name and puts in on a 4-door bland-looking fugly thing. (You have got to be kidding!)
How did that go?

Both of them got it right with the Camaro and the Challenger however. Of course, in Prince's world, Ford had nothing to do with it. :rolleyes:
Ford fans can look at the Camaro and say thanks to that car, Ford was forced to step up the ante (like we old dogs saw back in the 60's) and they answered the call.
So now we find ourselves in 2010 (Ok, in a few days)
Ford's going to offer a stock Mustang GT with 400 horsepower and 7,000 RPM redline. Rather than be happy that there is horsepower in the air in these times of cap-and-trade, Prius fever and "go green or go home" mentality, we come on a "Muscle car website" and people are dissing on this great news. :rolleyes:

I could go on... Ford's flathead was the "thing" for years. GM answered. The smallblock Chevy is legendary.
Corvettes were around way before any Mustangs or GTO's. The original GTO was one of the best things GM ever did.


Bottom line? Ford's making Ford fans VERY happy. You haters can make other choices.


Oh and Ben... The Butterscotch Dilly Bar tastes so good. :banana1: :shades

[michelle]

I <3 Ford. They are learning how to listen to enthusiasts when building new cars or improving previous models.

I may be bias though. My contacts at Ford have treated me very nicely. There's a very good reason why we have only Fords in our driveway/garages and that will continue to be the case.

[07ROUSHSTG3]

ROFL!! i love it. ford haters trying to justify GM taking obamas money. everyone laughed at FORD when they refinanced and essentially bet the farm, now look at them. squirming.

[Fast SVT]

Compression too high, going to have to run aftermarket forged pistons/rods if you want to go big on FI.

[07ROUSHSTG3]

Compression too high, going to have to run aftermarket forged pistons/rods if you want to go big on FI.

that is what i thought too, but ROUSH is equipping their models with the TVS from the factory?!?! time will tell, but ROUSH doesnt do anything "close to the edge".

[Crawlin]

. I'm sure Chris can recall those Mustang versus F-Body shootouts we used to have at GLD. I seem to recall the races being pretty good on both sides, as NOBODY showed up with a bone stock example and tried to "compete".


I SERIOUSLY miss those days.... no bullshit, no hatred for others, no disagreements...

just friends hanging out with friends. and Ford guys allowing a couple of camaro owners to jump in on track days :)

[Greg@GLD]

I SERIOUSLY miss those days.... no bullshit, no hatred for others, no disagreements...

just friends hanging out with friends. and Ford guys allowing a couple of camaro owners to jump in on track days :)

I miss those days too buddy.. :thumbsup You guys treated me great over on MFBA. And I still say that was BS what you guys did to me making me run that 11.00 car in the finals when I had Russ covered by .2 and was cutting .000 lights all day!! :goof

[Greg@GLD]

I <3 Ford. They are learning how to listen to enthusiasts when building new cars or improving previous models.

I may be bias though. My contacts at Ford have treated me very nicely. There's a very good reason why we have only Fords in our driveway/garages and that will continue to be the case.

That was going to be one of my retort points for future use in this thread Michelle. You are 1000% correct. Ford and the aftermarket treats us incredibly well. Look at things like those displays up at the EAA, or the events I went go at the Woodward Dream Cruise. Where's GM's version "Mustang Alley"??? :headbang
Lest summer I took my GT500 on Ford's Proving Grounds test track, it was something I won't ever forget. Ford gave us a private tour of the Flatrock Assembly plant a few years back. There's the SVTOA club, it goes on and on.

FORD gets it. THAT'S why they survive.

[Greg@GLD]

All the arguing aside, just today driving home from work, I saw a new Mustang, a new Camaro, and a new Challenger........All three were BEAUTIFUL, and damn is it great to see them all alive and well.....I'm just thrilled that real muscle cars still exist, despite everything going on with The Big Three, and all the odds against them. Personally, I love 'em all.

The chicks in this thread make the right points.

I thought the exact same thing. In my town, we have a Ford, Dodge and GM dealer all in a row. Last fall I saw Mustangs, Challengers and Camaros all out on the edge of the road. It made me think back to when I used to see the same things on Silver Sping in Milwaukee. Back in the day it was a "dealership row" and you'd see lines of GTO's and Chevelles and Camaros and 442's and so on and so forth! :headbang

[STANMAN]

You want to know what I hate? The GM products I would actually buy only lasted for for like 3 years a piece. This would include the Grand National, the mid 90's Impala SS, and the 1st gen Camaro's. Why did every other generation of Camaro's last about 10 years a piece, but the hottest one (in my eyes) last only 3? Not fair I tell ya:rolf

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

Thanks for the schooling Grg@GLD.
And yea hypereutectrash slugs suck, what a weak link.

[juicedimpss]

Thanks for the schooling Grg@GLD.
And yea hypereutectrash slugs suck, what a weak link.

Im betting the price tag of this car will make it so only the wealthy execs can afford to buy it,and thats the same kinda guy that would cry about forged pistons making noise.:durr

[Waver]

You want to know what I hate? The GM products I would actually buy only lasted for for like 3 years a piece. This would include the Grand National, the mid 90's Impala SS, and the 1st gen Camaro's. Why did every other generation of Camaro's last about 10 years a piece, but the hottest one (in my eyes) last only 3? Not fair I tell ya:rolf

Bob, I cant believe that I am agreeing with you on something, however, you are right, the cars that I liked from GM only lasted a short time, like three or 4 years (however the GN name was around for longer than two years)

[-stew-]

You want to know what I hate? The GM products I would actually buy only lasted for for like 3 years a piece. This would include the Grand National, the mid 90's Impala SS, and the 1st gen Camaro's. Why did every other generation of Camaro's last about 10 years a piece, but the hottest one (in my eyes) last only 3? Not fair I tell ya:rolf


Split bumper> any other Camaro.

[Waver]

Split bumper> any other Camaro.
^^^^
agreed, oh yeah and the gn was around a little longer than 3 years (it came out in 82).

One cannot deny that ford has done many things right this year. No matter what you say Prince, Ford is the healthiest of the big 3............you cannot deny that simple fact. Another thing that you cannot deny is that the Mustang, in its 45 year history, has been a trend setter. Sure, the GTO can be called the first muscle car, however it was the Mustang that kicked off the pony car wars because of its huge sales numbers in its first 3 years of being out in the market. It is the reason for the Camaro/Firebird/Challenger's existence and creation. GM and Chrysler saw how well the car was selling (and how poorly their cars in the same class, like the Covair) were doing, and couldn't let Ford have that market (the Pony car market, not the Muscle car market, lets keep them apart. Cheville's, Nova's, Chargers, 442's and GTO's in my opinion are in an entirely different class from the Mustangs, Camaros, Firebirds, and Challengers. Look at what was racing in the trans am series in the late 60's........).GM kept the idea of the pony car alive through the 70's while chrysler was switching to fwd chargers, killing challengers, and hiring actors to talk about the Corinthian leather that the new Cordoba had. Ford dropped the ball too with that sad excuse of a car called the Mustang II. In the 80's Ford started the pony car wars again with the hugly popular Fox platform. Gm had to get caught up with their engines (ditching the anemic crossfire engines and getting tpi), and while Ford rested on its huge sales numbers, Gm took the lead with some awesome v8 engines as far as power in the 90's and early 2000's, (I will not get into the fact that the Mustang was still out selling the camaro/firebird and thus, caused the absence of the camaro after 2002.) Then the retro look of the Mustang came out again, and sales numbers went through the roof.....Holy shit what do we have again, the other two auto makers scrambeling to get caught up...............Thus the MUSTANG IS A TREND SETTER, and once again has an engine to back that up.

I agree, the Camaro, Mustang, and Challenger are some awesome vehicles..........if they wernt, we wouldnt be talking about them....Maybe that is why you never hear an argument about a Cobalt vs Focus Vs Neon on here.

[Prince Valiant]

Reality can't be defined. it's a perception of the individual. One person's reality is another persons delusions. Whatever online tibetan monastery taught you that, go back and demand a refund :rolf

Reality can be defined; at best, one cannot define another persons perception of reality.

Your statement is easily proven wrong by the fact that while you might not perceive a wall in front of you, the second you try to walk through it, reality smacks you in the face.


You can look at things this way sir... based upon sales and public perception, the Mustang caused a huge sensation in the automotive world. Sales numbers were incredibly successful. I won't mention your "example" of a ponycar other than say I'm quite sure you might be the only person on the planet that even remembers that car. Later in the 60's, when they dropped the "Barra" it was one of my favorites and possibly one of the coolest looking cars ever. My dad had one. Fond memories.Actually, the 67 barracuda was a very desirable car too, even if you don't think so. With the available 383, and later 340 v8's, (and later 440 barracuda's and hemi's) it was an extremely strong performer. Interestingly enough, Car & Driver regarded it as the best looking car of 1967 (I'm sure camaro/firebird owners have an arguable case in disagreement though...and one I'd side with on the firebird side). As measured as a sales success, I recall the 67-69 models outsold the 70-74 models...

But though you think the mustang was some out-of-the-blue revelation that mustang came out, I don't. Hell, AMC had a compact fastback in the works for release a full year and a half before the mustang and barracuda...called the tarpon. Just think, we may well have been this class of cars "fish cars" had AMC not been too cash-strapped to bring it to the market.

The simple fact of the matter is greg, what we call pony cars would have developed sans the mustang. I don't downplay the mustangs sucess one bit in saying so, or the role it factually played...but to say it was solely responsible, or to suggest I should thank ford for a challenger is stretching reality a bit.

It'd be like me saying that the only reason Chevy came out with the 454SS pickup, or Ford with the lightning was due to the 79 lil' red express. Or the Custom sport before that. On it's face, it's laughable.

It's like saying the muscle car was solely attributed to the GTO...when we were seeing mid-sized 400+hp, 400+ ci cars several years before the GTO came out.

Just like saying muscle cars owe their existence to chrysler for putting out 300+hp cars (300 series, 55+), or the HP wars that ensued because of Oldsmobile rocket v8.

The point is, car companies aren't minor gods who cars are but a gift to us, and we should somehow be thankful for it. So please don't try to make people pray at the altar of it. Car companies simply answer the demands of the consumer if it's a profitable endeavor for them. All the aforementioned innovations weren't guesses in the dark, but a response to the desires of consumers...so again, absent a mustang, I would have still seen a car like the challenger evolve, and ford would have put out something like, if not THE mustang.

Really, I'm thankful there's enough guys (and gals) out there who find these cars desirable enough to make the big 3 want to build these cars for us.

[Prince Valiant]

No matter what you say Prince, Ford is the healthiest of the big 3............you cannot deny that simple fact. :confused I didn't.

But they aren't in a great place right now either.

It is the reason for the Camaro/Firebird/Challenger's existence and creation. See? Utter tripe. Ford delusionitis is apparently a sexually communicable disease :rolleyes:

[Waver]

:confused I didn't.

But they aren't in a great place right now either.
See? Utter tripe. Ford delusionitis is apparently a sexually communicable disease :rolleyes:

No it is not being delusional. When did Gm and Chrysler do their first designs of their entries into the pony car market? After the Mustang came out and was a sales hit. For that matter, where did the name Pony Car come from.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pony_car

http://www.timelessrides.com/wiki/pony-car-history

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/mar2006/bw20060316_171385.htm

Read these through, there is my evidence....Granted the Baracuda came out two weeks before the Mustang, it was Ford who came out with the prototype well before chrysler ever came up with anything. For that matter, the pony car market was created because people missed the late 50's look of the Thunderbird (according to one website), another Ford.......Find me anywhere where it says that the Camaro, Firebird, and Challenger were not a response to the huge sales success of the Mustang.

It is not being delusional, it is Fact.

It was the Mustang that Killed the Covair and started a "new" class of car (I guess that is why they dont call them "fish" cars)

It was because of the Mustang that we have the Camaro and the Firebird

It was the Mustang was outselling the Camaro/Firebird (amongst other reasons) that there was a 7 year gap (8 years if you want to count model years) that caused the Camaro to be absent.

It was the restyling of the Mustang in 05 that got Chrysler and GM brass to design and bring to market a new Camaro and Challenger. (granted GM and Chrysler had prototypes of possible Muscle cars, none of them came to market)

The Charger is not a muscle car...........It is a sedan, just like the cts-v is not a muscle car.

It was GM and Chrysler's Engines that they stuck into their new PONY CARS (not fish cars) that gave Ford the kick in the ass it needed to start building a 400 hp v8 engine for the car that is credited with starting it all.

I am not delusional. I give credit where credit is due. It is your bias against Ford that you cant see things for what they really are.

Oh and Ford has one of the best selling trucks, and the best built (from a durability stand point) than DODGE (except for the diesels.......every one has their own preference on that). The fords DONT look like the Rams. Ford uses MATERIALS than Chrysler in their trucks...........So does GM.........I guess that is why both Ford and GM trucks last longer, and there are more of them on the roads today.........

Take off your blinders and come to reality

*Note: I dont give a shit about spelling

[DRK]

Two things "The Prince" has proven in this thread.

#1. He's a douche with a chip on his shoulder.

#2. Insane people don't know they're insane.

[Dr.Buick]

You guys have way to much time on your hands, to write a book!:)

[Crawlin]

Nick...

Who sells more cars a month?

West Allis and West Bend Chevy(not Caddy) Combined?

or

Northpoint Ford and Heiser Ford(just Ford, not L/M) Combined?

I'm actually inquisitive as to if it changed since a couple years ago

[Crawlin]

For that matter, the pony car market was created because people missed the late 50's look of the Thunderbird (according to one website), another Ford.......Find me anywhere where it says that the Camaro, Firebird, and Challenger were not a response to the huge sales success of the Mustang.

It was the restyling of the Mustang in 05 that got Chrysler and GM brass to design and bring to market a new Camaro and Challenger. (granted GM and Chrysler had prototypes of possible Muscle cars, none of them came to market)


Then you could say that Ford's design for the Thunderbird was based on the popularity of the Corvette coming out in '53....

The plan and design for the new Camaro was in the works before the Mustang was restyled. They didn't know what platform to put it on because of the possiblities of the new Impala/Lucerne/etc.. platforms being RWD so they looked at sharing if I remember properly. if it wasn't for shitty leadership and shortsighted goals that ultimately failed to bring them market share(cobalt and aveo) maybe they'd have made better decisions.

not making an argument, just updating on what you had said :)

I will agree wholeheartedly that Ford is in the best Financial position from MY personal opinion and understanding of the market/economy

[Fast SVT]

that is what i thought too, but ROUSH is equipping their models with the TVS from the factory?!?! time will tell, but ROUSH doesnt do anything "close to the edge".

You can do FI but not at the boost levels Ford owners are used to. At 11:1 you are looking at GM numbers which would put it from 5 to 8 psi max before you start replacing internals.

[VroomPshhTsi]

Page 10... halfway there!

Cliff Notes: Ford is in the best financial condition out of Big 3. Mustang has a long, successful history but it's not some insane OMG WE ARE NOT WORTHY design.

[Waver]

Nick...

Who sells more cars a month?

West Allis and West Bend Chevy(not Caddy) Combined?

or

Northpoint Ford and Heiser Ford(just Ford, not L/M) Combined?

I'm actually inquisitive as to if it changed since a couple years ago

I really couldnt tell you Chris, but I am willing to bet that it is Northpoint and HF. I am sure that HF sells more than West Allis and I know for a fact that we sell way more than west bend.

[Waver]

Then you could say that Ford's design for the Thunderbird was based on the popularity of the Corvette coming out in '53....

The plan and design for the new Camaro was in the works before the Mustang was restyled. They didn't know what platform to put it on because of the possiblities of the new Impala/Lucerne/etc.. platforms being RWD so they looked at sharing if I remember properly. if it wasn't for shitty leadership and shortsighted goals that ultimately failed to bring them market share(cobalt and aveo) maybe they'd have made better decisions.

not making an argument, just updating on what you had said :)

I will agree wholeheartedly that Ford is in the best Financial position from MY personal opinion and understanding of the market/economy


Ah yes, I was hoping that someone would bring up the 53 vette, but I am sure that we will all agree, the Corvette is a far different car than the Mustang and the Thunderbird. I Also didnt know that the design for the new camaro was being worked on prior to the s197 mustang being designed....I guess that is why the GTO came out when it did, as sort of a stop gap between the generations of Camaros.

[Crawlin]

At that point in time in the mid 50's, it wasn't that different of a car. Nowadays yes, it's got that little bit of an "elitist" or snob status to it compared to a mustang or camaro(i don't think it should, it's still just a mid 40k car). But in the mid 50's, a Corvette and a Thunderbird were both just two seater "toys"

That's interesting about the sales. I know for sure the Chevy outsold NP and H. Ford combined for the longest time I was there. That was WITHOUT includeding the 10-15 from west bend.

I'm talking BRAND NEW, not cars total.

[Prince Valiant]

No it is not being delusional. When did Gm and Chrysler do their first designs of their entries into the pony car market? You answer your own question:

Granted the Baracuda came out two weeks before the Mustang


it was Ford who came out with the prototype well before chrysler ever came up with anything. And Ford came up with the mustang after AMC created the concept AMC rambler tarpon

Which were all extensions of the growing trend in compact car performance, and the desire to create a separate model based on these compacts. This would lead to capture new buyers who otherwise wouldn't consider cars like the rambler, valiant, falcon, etc since they were mundane and utilitarian.



For that matter, the pony car market was created because people missed the late 50's look of the Thunderbird (according to one website), another FordL-o-L. Yes, because the sporty two seat personal luxury convertible segment is a natural segway into the sporty two door compact segment. See, it wasn't budding trends in the auto market place that brought us the mustang, no! It was ford's own devine creation! :rolf

I mean (according to one website), the mustang obviously came out because people missed the look of the t-bird. Since they look so alike :rolf

See, and this is what I hate...the "and then the god FORD came down from the heavens, trumpets blaring, to bequeath upon us mere mortals the car. But it was not just any car...this car shall be called the mustang. And you should sacrifice three virgins a year to this car."

I mean, I went over the how's and why the mustang came to the market, and the why's it was a success. I know what people will say when asked about conventional history of the pony car segment, or the muscle car segment, just as I know about what mormons will babble about when you ask about the book of mormons.

Want to see how malignant Ford delusionitis is?

Ah yes, I was hoping that someone would bring up the 53 vette, but I am sure that we will all agree, the Corvette is a far different car than the Mustang and the Thunderbird. Yes. Expensive, two seat sporty cars are vastly different than each other.

Ford delusionitis.

Yep, new camaro and challenger should be the ford camaro, and the ford challenger.

[1320PNY]

Heard good stuff about the 2011. So what did I miss?

[yellow vert]

You guys are all wrong the reason the Corvette, Thunderbird, Mustang and so on were built is response to the European cars that where coming in for the second car market.

[Waver]

You answer your own question
ah yes, but was there such a thing called a pony car then. NO. In fact the design of the original cuda was not a huge sales earner, unlike the mustang, camaro, and firebird. It wasnt till the vehicle was redesigned that it took off, probably why a 70 hemi cuda is more desirable than a 64 1/2.



And Ford came up with the mustang after AMC created the concept AMC rambler tarpon the rambler tampon awesome (yes I know you said tarpon).....and since I have never even heard of the car you speak of, was it ever brought to market? For that matter, the first mustang concept (which is in the Henry Ford Museum) came out in 1962.....


Which were all extensions of the growing trend in compact car performance, and the desire to create a separate model based on these compacts. This would lead to capture new buyers who otherwise wouldn't consider cars like the rambler, valiant, falcon, etc since they were mundane and utilitarian. True all of the cars that you are mentioning really didnt inspire any one other than businessmen and little old ladies. It was a market that was dominated at the time by..........THE Chevy CORVAIR...........
Yes believe it or not, the Covair. That was the car that the mustang was originally aimed a compeating against.


L-o-L. Yes, because the sporty two seat personal luxury convertible segment is a natural segway into the sporty two door compact segment. See, it wasn't budding trends in the auto market place that brought us the mustang, no! It was ford's own devine creation! :rolf

I mean (according to one website), the mustang obviously came out because people missed the look of the t-bird. Since they look so alike :rolf

See, and this is what I hate...the "and then the god FORD came down from the heavens, trumpets blaring, to bequeath upon us mere mortals the car. But it was not just any car...this car shall be called the mustang. And you should sacrifice three virgins a year to this car."

I mean, I went over the how's and why the mustang came to the market, and the why's it was a success. I know what people will say when asked about conventional history of the pony car segment, or the muscle car segment, just as I know about what mormons will babble about when you ask about the book of mormons.

Want to see how malignant Ford delusionitis is?
Yes. Expensive, two seat sporty cars are vastly different than each other.

Ford delusionitis.

Yep, new camaro and challenger should be the ford camaro, and the ford challenger.
Now this whole paragraph is where your Mopar "delusionitis", as you say us Ford guys have, gets really thick, and why I say you have blinders on. I never said the Mustang was the best eva, however lets look at the facts. It out sold most production cars at the time (except the vw beetle). It was intended to be an entry model to the Thunderbird, which, was getting BIGGER and more luxurious. The Corvette, which the thunderbird was suposed to compete against, remained a sports car.....you cant compare a sports car to a "compact" car as you call it. The mustang filled the void that the newly designed thunderbird left behind....enough said. You really need to face facts, the WHOLE TERM "PONY CAR" IS IN DIRECT RELATION TO THE MUSTANG....Nothing that Chrysler did gets that kind of credit..........Segments are created by a vehicles popularity........obviously Ford did something right.

I think you are just ass hurt that it took 30 years to fill the void in the pony car market that your beloved Chrysler had forsaken so many years ago, and now that they have something that can kind of compete, it still gets left in the dust by the Chevy and Ford cars that it is trying to hard to compete against, and failing miserably....Too bad that there isnt more people with your Delusionitis, maybe Chrysler wouldnt need to borrow money from the government every 20 years like it did in the 80's and now.....For that matter, maybe they could pay some of it back.....Be happy, Mopar did create one popular segment, the mini van...........I know that is something that you are very proud of, arnt you..........

Now if you are done ranting and raving about how great Chrysler isnt, You will see that I am not saying that the Camaro and the challenger should be called Fords..........Not at all.....like every vehicle hit they were created as competitors to a popular car........Using your logic then, I guess my response and views should be referred to as "princes response"?

By the way, I am willing to bet that there will be some more of Chryslers makes that will go the way of the dodo, just like your beloved Rambler, AMC, Desoto, Plymouth............


I Find it funny how you say that us ford guys are delusional, when the GM guys do the same when it comes to their cars.........Hell Wraith insists on putting how well sales are of gm's compaired to fords........yet you dont call them delusional

[makindue84]

Nutwaver, I agree with you. :D:thumbsup

[GTSLOW]

Nutwaver, I agree with you. :D:thumbsup

Despite being 6months old at least someone does. :goof

[DurtyKurty]

Nutwaver, I agree with you. :D:thumbsup

If you only knew.......

[BOSS LX]

Since this was brought back up to the top....


9 second stock long block bitccches!!!:thumbsup:licky

[FoxStang]

And 700 some odd miles on a tank of gas. Ofcourse when your grannying along at 45 mph on an oval track... Still, not too shabby for its power levels.

[BOSS LX]

Since when does simply the presence of forged crank and 4 bolt mains means it's automatically a 1,000hp capable long block? I mean, Andy, we know your a ford guy and all...but don't go blowing your load so obviously for everyone to see...it's embarrassing. :rolf


Just saw this car, and remember Prince calling bs. Well it is 2 years later but here you go. 1000 hp stock long block with cams.
2011 Mustang 5.0
STOCK bottom end
Boss Intake Manifold
Comp Stage 3 Camshafts
Full Exhaust w/hi-flo cats
Procharger P1SC (pullied for 16psi, only seeing 10psi)
Alky Control Dual Nozzle Meth System
SCT Tune

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwvyCuGhDYg&feature=player_embedded

[GTSLOW]

Weaksauce on the 5month revive.

[BOSS LX]

Weaksauce on the 5month revive.A year and 5 months homie! lol

[animal]

yay for 5.0's :)

[Prince Valiant]

Just saw this car, and remember Prince calling bs. Well it is 2 years later but here you go. 1000 hp stock long block with cams. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwvyCuGhDYg&feature=player_embeddedImpressive what people can do mixing methanol into the equation.

That said, it's not a stock "long block" w/ cams since the term "long block" includes camshafts, intake, heads, etc. Perhaps it is a stock short-block, sure...very impressive!

Perhaps it has "stock heads...wait a minute! It doesn't! You're list conveniently, and I'd say dishonestly leaves out that it was using different heads (since it was clearly posted to the list of which you copied and pasted...although, I'll allow that as a ford guy, you might not understand what copy n' paste means, only what paste taste like :goof ).

Which certainly means the guy has had a chance to upgrade another critical component in the "1000hp stock long block" equation, and what I pointed out as one flaw in your claim early on...head gaskets.

So what has this thread taught me?
1. The coyote short block is impressive piece of machinery.
2. The much vaunted BossLX doesn't understand automotive terminology such as the difference b/w long block and short block, and the meaning of "stock"
3. BossLX probably doesn't know how to copy and paste.

[Moparjim]

1000HP on a stock long block was pretty easy on a 2nd gen Viper as well back in 96 lol. Of course having close to 500 cubes to work with makes it a little easier.

[animal]

So what has this thread taught me?
1. The coyote short block is impressive piece of machinery.
2. The much vaunted BossLX doesn't understand automotive terminology such as the difference b/w long block and short block, and the meaning of "stock"
3. BossLX probably doesn't know how to copy and paste.

4. Prince secretly loves Fords. :goof

[WhatsADSM]

Impressive what people can do mixing methanol into the equation.

That said, it's not a stock "long block" w/ cams since the term "long block" includes camshafts, intake, heads, etc. Perhaps it is a stock short-block, sure...very impressive!

Perhaps it has "stock heads...wait a minute! It doesn't! You're list conveniently, and I'd say dishonestly leaves out that it was using different heads (since it was clearly posted to the list of which you copied and pasted...although, I'll allow that as a ford guy, you might not understand what copy n' paste means, only what paste taste like :goof ).

Which certainly means the guy has had a chance to upgrade another critical component in the "1000hp stock long block" equation, and what I pointed out as one flaw in your claim early on...head gaskets.

So what has this thread taught me?
1. The coyote short block is impressive piece of machinery.
2. The much vaunted BossLX doesn't understand automotive terminology such as the difference b/w long block and short block, and the meaning of "stock"
3. BossLX probably doesn't know how to copy and paste.

Ouch a little sensitive about the 5L?

But yea I will say if it actually had aftermarket heads on it, its a stretch to say stock longblock.

They still are very impressive engines!

[DRK]

4. Prince secretly loves Fords. :goof



5. Boss has left more power on the table in the sake of reliability then Prince has ever owned

[DurtyKurty]

Whoa whoa whoa whoa.... wait a second. I'm out of the loop here. A run of the mill regular 2011+ 5.0 Mustang GT's short block can handle 1000hp(or close to)?

I think I have some mustangs to sell.....

[animal]

A run of the mill regular 2011+ 5.0 Mustang GT's short block can handle 1000hp(or close to)?

I hear they do just fine in the snow too :D

[Prince Valiant]

Ouch a little sensitive about the 5L?Naw...and if a truly stock long block makes it to 1000hp, it won't be the first time I've been wrong either.

BUT, if you watch the vid, color me skeptical that that was an 881hp pull...didn't look it or sound it....although I willingly allow that I've not that I've been around enough cars of that to truly say with much authority what an 800++rwhp car should look or sound like on a dyno.

Likewise the bit about "it was only "seeing" 10psi"? Bunch of BS. If it's only "seeing" 10psi, I really doubt it's making 881hp to the wheels. Even at the claimed 16psi, it strectches the limits of credulity to say that it more than substantially doubles it's output at the wheels.

[Prince Valiant]

5. Boss has left more power on the table in the sake of reliability then Prince has ever ownednot really.

[Waver]

not really.

Dont mind DRK....He is too busy swinging on other peoples nuts to have a intelligent comment on this topic. All he can do is try to bring others down.

[Prince Valiant]

Dont mind DRK....He is too busy swinging on other peoples nuts to have a intelligent comment on this topic. All he can do is try to bring others down.I wouldn't say that...he has put up some very nice cars on this site, and I've always admired his work/cars. Sure he's a negative fellow, but I wouldn't say he's dumb.

That said, he doesn't really know what I've have or owned to make such a statement, so...

[Waver]

I wouldn't say that...he has put up some very nice cars on this site, and I've always admired his work/cars. Sure he's a negative fellow, but I wouldn't say he's dumb.

That said, he doesn't really know what I've have or owned to make such a statement, so...

I am not taking anything away from him as far as his cars. I was just referring to the statement that he made in this topic.

[BOSS LX]

Dur, whats a long block?
It is a stock long block with the addition of cams, which I pointed out in my post. Where did you find anything about the heads? If they are anything other then stock heads, they are BOSS heads. Boss heads are a production head, on a production 5.0.

So to sum it up, Ford = winning!

[BOSS LX]

5. Boss has left more power on the table in the sake of reliability then Prince has ever owned

Got to call BS on this too!

If I ever left power on the table for the sake of reliability, I would have more money in my wallet. lol

[DRK]

Dont mind DRK....He is too busy swinging on other peoples nuts to have a intelligent comment on this topic. All he can do is try to bring others down.

How about you shut your mouth you stupid little fuck. I hope you die in a fire you fucking magazine mechanic.

[DRK]

Got to call BS on this too!

If I ever left power on the table for the sake of reliability, I would have more money in my wallet. lol

Ok. Mike did it for you :)

[-stew-]

Dont mind DRK....He is too busy swinging on other peoples nuts to have a intelligent comment on this topic. All he can do is try to bring others down.

http://kexx.net/u/img2230.png


How about you shut your mouth you stupid little fuck. I hope you die in a fire you fucking magazine mechanic.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/Zen_Dog/25a12dt.gif

[BigSnailBuick]

How about you shut your mouth you stupid little fuck. I hope you die in a fire you fucking magazine mechanic.

Ahh BCM how ive missed you :popcorn:

[LEWETHETIGER73]

here we go......

[Cryptic]

"magazine mechanic"

*dies* :rolf

[Waver]

How about you shut your mouth you stupid little fuck. I hope you die in a fire you fucking magazine mechanic.

Lol, that is entertaining. Is that the best you got? Next thing you are going to say is that you have forgotten more than I know. Wait, I know, you are going to quote another PM! Quit being a little crybaby bitch. Infact, you should just quit while you are behind. If you cant take people stating what they think about YOU then you should keep your opinions to your self. Now go back to your regularly scheduled nutswinging.

[DRK]

Lol, that is entertaining. Is that the best you got? Next thing you are going to say is that you have forgotten more than I know. Wait, I know, you are going to quote another PM! Quit being a little crybaby bitch. Infact, you should just quit while you are behind. If you cant take people stating what they think about YOU then you should keep your opinions to your self. Now go back to your regularly scheduled nutswinging.

Let me take a stab at this tough finger thing. You where the fat kid with a short dick who always got picked on and now you hide behind your keyboard and take a strap on from your butt ugly fat girl. Ok I got it now.

[Prince Valiant]

Dur, whats a long block?
It is a stock long block with the addition of cams, which I pointed out in my post. Where did you find anything about the heads? If they are anything other then stock heads, they are BOSS heads. Boss heads are a production head, on a production 5.0.

So to sum it up, Ford = winning!Swapping heads doesn't make for a "stock" or production long block. Though it's possible to swap Hemi heads onto a RB block, this wouldn't be "stock" in any way shape or form. Not that it's terribly important to this argument, since it's the short-block that would be the weak-link here...

But that's fine...let's say for the sake of argument that we're dealing with a stock long block; I remain unconvinced that it's producing 881hp from "seeing" 10psi. Maybe you think so....but then you should know better.

That set-up would then have to be producing ~ 550hp to the rear wheels NA then. It's a tad more believable at the full 16psi, which would translate to an NA 420rwhp, but even there...it's a bit of a stretch.

Let me take a stab at this tough finger thing. You where the fat kid with a short dick who always got picked on and now you hide behind your keyboard and take a strap on from your butt ugly fat girl. Ok I got it now.Are you really thinking about nutwaver's dick? sheesh.

If you really think this about him, why pick on him? It just makes you the bully that looks for easy targets.

[DRK]

Swapping heads doesn't make for a "stock" or production long block. Though it's possible to swap Hemi heads onto a RB block, this wouldn't be "stock" in any way shape or form. Not that it's terribly important to this argument, since it's the short-block that would be the weak-link here...

But that's fine...let's say for the sake of argument that we're dealing with a stock long block; I remain unconvinced that it's producing 881hp from "seeing" 10psi. Maybe you think so....but then you should know better.

That set-up would then have to be producing ~ 550hp to the rear wheels NA then. It's a tad more believable at the full 16psi, which would translate to an NA 420rwhp, but even there...it's a bit of a stretch.


The Boss coyote is a production 5.0.
The blower was pullied for 16psi but boost is just a reference of back pressure. A 1400cfm blower will put out 1400cfm no matter if the gauge sees 10psi or 16psi. The difference is the amount of air the engine can flow. Example. A Strim (1200cfm) with a 2.95 pulley and a stock 6.7 crank pulley will make 18+psi @6000rpm on a stock headed sbf and maybe 5psi on a yates headed 363 at the same rpm but it's still pushing 1200 cfm through the motor

[DRK]

.
Are you really thinking about nutwaver's dick? sheesh.

If you really think this about him, why pick on him? It just makes you the bully that looks for easy targets.

Actually I took you off my ignore list because I have more time lately to read through your novels. Then I added the nutwaver to it because his mom kept what ran down her leg instead of a child.

[Prince Valiant]

Awww...that's nice of you!

But really, I can't think the last time I wrote a really post....it's been a long while.


The Boss coyote is a production 5.0.
The blower was pullied for 16psi but boost is just a reference of back pressure. A 1400cfm blower will put out 1400cfm no matter if the gauge sees 10psi or 16psi. The difference is the amount of air the engine can flow. Example. A Strim (1200cfm) with a 2.95 pulley and a stock 6.7 crank pulley will make 18+psi @6000rpm on a stock headed sbf and maybe 5psi on a yates headed 363 at the same rpm but it's still pushing 1200 cfm through the motoreh, it's has really less to do with the heads, than how much the engine is actually flowing at a given moment when we're discussing "boost". You're absolutely right, a given blower driven the same amount will produced different amount of "boost" while producing the same amount of airflow...but the term "boost" is an interesting thing...

Since you suddenly have the time, take a moment to learn why...

If I have a cubic foot of air with no added pressure, I would expect to find ~ a given number of "air" molecules..oxygen, since that is the reactive gas we neeed. Well represent this number as X.

But let's say I take that same cubic foot container, and now increase the relative pressure to 14.7 psi (IE 1 bar) over the nominal atmospheric pressure...viola! I would expect to find ~ 2X of oxygen molecules.

So if I expect 1X of guel and oxygen igniting under a given circumstance to produce a certain amount of HP, then I can expect 2X of oxygen/fuel prodcing ~ double the HP too.

So for every 14.7 psi that an engine "sees", you can expect a 100% increase over that engine NA. So a 300 hp engine NA would translate to a 600hp engine "boosted" to 14.7 psi. That engine would also produce 900 hp if it was "boosted" to 29.4psi. 1200 at 44.4 psi and so forth.

So for the purposes of above, I really don't care how much air the blower is flowing/producing, rather how much "boost" it's producing really does show me how much the engine is being "enhanced". The engine wasn't 'seeing' 10psi, and even at 16psi, I'm still a little (but not totally) skeptical.

[WhatsADSM]

PV=nRT people

Its more than just boost pressure and volume. Not to mention an engine is not a static system its very difficult to model. Far more than even the ideal gas law are in play.

At the end of the day what matters (for the purpose of this conversation) is if it really made the 800+whp number reliably. If so then yea it made 1000 on the stock shit. Its not hard to believe really.

[DRK]

So if I expect 1X of guel

First what is guel?

Second your wrong. You can spin the turbine as fast as you'd like and make more boost but once your past it's efficiency range it just builds heat. Again boost is a reference of back pressure not the cfm traveling through the motor which is what makes power.

[DRK]

At the end of the day what matters (for the purpose of this conversation) is if it really made the 800+whp number reliably. If so then yea it made 1000 on the stock shit. Its not hard to believe really.

agreed

[WhatsADSM]

agreed
People make 500whp on stock 2.4l dodge shit, 500whp on stock 2.0l honda shit, 700-800 on stock 3.0l toyota shit. Not that much of a stretch to say that people can make somewhat reliable 800-900whp on a modern well flowing 5.0l v8 that makes a decent chunk of power to start.

[Crawlin]

PV=nRT people

Its more than just boost pressure and volume. Not to mention an engine is not a static system its very difficult to model. Far more than even the ideal gas law are in play.

At the end of the day what matters (for the purpose of this conversation) is if it really made the 800+whp number reliably. If so then yea it made 1000 on the stock shit. Its not hard to believe really.

PV = mRT ? Pv = RT

EDIT - There's just too many!

HAHAHAHAHA

[animal]

Reading back through this thread is humorous. Its the time machine where arguments haven't really changed much in 2 years. Though I was wrong in my line of thinking 2 decembers ago. The used 2010 4.6 cars have proven to hold enough value in the used market that I got the '12 anyways for about the same price after incentives. Happy to have the extra horseys over the 4.6 tho :)

I didn't know that an article discussion 2 years ago would provide physics discussion today. Gotta love trying to apply ideal gas law in non-ideal discussions. :rolf

[WhatsADSM]

PV = mRT ? Pv = RT

EDIT - There's just too many!

HAHAHAHAHA

?
As far I remembered it (and I just checked on wiki even) the standard form was PV=nRT

Point is ideal gas law (which absolutely does apply, although not the ONLY factor) has temperature as a variable in it. It never is as simple as just looking at pressure as Chris was doing.


Reading back through this thread is humorous. Its the time machine where arguments haven't really changed much in 2 years. Though I was wrong in my line of thinking 2 decembers ago. The used 2010 4.6 cars have proven to hold enough value in the used market that I got the '12 anyways for about the same price after incentives. Happy to have the extra horseys over the 4.6 tho :)

I didn't know that an article discussion 2 years ago would provide physics discussion today. Gotta love trying to apply ideal gas law in non-ideal discussions. :rolf

The irony is no one is trying to apply it, but apparently you think people are.

Chris is talking about *just* pressure as the factor for increased power.

And I mentioned the common simplification (the ideal gas law) contains temperature as a MAJOR factor. However it is an over simplification as there are tons more factors than that.

What exactly are you trying to say?

[animal]

?
The irony is no one is trying to apply it, but apparently you think people are.

Chris is talking about *just* pressure as the factor for increased power.

And I mentioned the common simplification (the ideal gas law) contains temperature as a MAJOR factor. However it is an over simplification as there are tons more factors than that.

What exactly are you trying to say?

Yeah I guess apply was a wrong word. Meh. The whole current discussion in this thread is stupid anyway, so my misuse was not out of place. lol.

[Prince Valiant]

PV=nRT people

Its more than just boost pressure and volume. Not to mention an engine is not a static system its very difficult to model. Far more than even the ideal gas law are in play.Actually murray, you'd find that given enough dyno graphs, and looking at the "boost", the general rule of thumb that 1 bar of "boost" generally equates to an increase in power of 100%. If only boosting around 7.8psi equates to a ~ 50% increase in power, so on and so forth.

Likewise, you contend that an engine is not a "static" system...but really, each combustion event IS within a static system. Just mulitiple static events happening time after time after time in a given second/minute/etc. Double the amount of air/fuel, and yes, you'll roughly double the amount of energy returned.

The end result there is only a given amount of power that will be extrapolated from a given volume of gas and air. That's why the old axiom holds true, there really is "no substitute for cubic inches."

First what is guel? A typo. Maybe I overestimated you if that was not apparent in the first place.

Second your wrong. You can spin the turbine as fast as you'd like and make more boost but once your past it's efficiency range it just builds heat. Again boost is a reference of back pressure not the cfm traveling through the motor which is what makes power. Great...adiabatic efficiency. Yep, there's a limit how much a given turbo can move and thus, how much power it can support, if any; IE, a single t28 on a 540ci BBC won't do anything but impede intake and exhaust flow...and except perhaps at lower rpm's, could it actually move enough air to produce "boost" since boost represents the ressistance of how much air the turbo is moving versus the amount of air the engine is consuming.

But for the purpose of discussion, we're just assuming that we've always got an ideally sized turbo for a given application.

But regardless, the pressure gives one an appromixate idea of the density of air molecules that we will mix with fuel, and thus if you know the NA power, it's easy to get a rough idea of what it will do with a given amount of "boost"

People make 500whp on stock 2.4l dodge shit, 500whp on stock 2.0l honda shit, 700-800 on stock 3.0l toyota shit. Not that much of a stretch to say that people can make somewhat reliable 800-900whp on a modern well flowing 5.0l v8 that makes a decent chunk of power to start.I haven't seen the 500whp on a stock honda...that is impressive given that it's not build with forced induction in mind.

BUT, and I know you might still disagree, given let's say a stock mustang makes 365whp. To support 880hp, this translates to roughly needing ~ 20psi of boost to compress the given amount of air required from an engine flowing what the coyote is at it's peak hp. Now, did the mods increase the rwhp over 400++ much less the over 500 required for the engine only "seeing" 10psi?

Again, still skeptical.

[Prince Valiant]

Chris is talking about *just* pressure as the factor for increased power.Actually the *only* factor for the increased power is increased air/fuel. Pressure is how we measure the increase in air/fuel....

We had a thread like this years back...you know how I KNOW I'm right? Even Hitman admited I was right after he initially disagreed. That's never happened before or since AFAIK. :goof

I'm going to search though and see if I can find the old dyno graphs I used...it was pretty remarkable how relatively accurate it was given that this is but a "rule of thumb."