History channel NOW

[VroomPshhTsi]

They have a ton of raw footage from 9/11. No narration, just home videos.

So crazy seeing it all again from a ton of angles.

[Lash]

Honestly....I don't want to watch all that again.

[gottwins?]

Honestly....I don't want to watch all that again.

+1 But it does make you reflect.

[TheRX7Project]

They need a 9/11 channel for all the people who question the war in Afghanistan and why we should be dead-set on winning it regardless of the cost.

[Car Guy]

They need a 9/11 channel for all the people who question the war in Afghanistan and why we should be dead-set on winning it regardless of the cost.

:wstupid

[Crawlin]

What? we were attacked? I thought that the building was set to explode. You could totally tell by the explosions as the floors collapsed SO evenly. Couldn't have been a plane. Those were tomahawk cruise missles...

Fucking idiots... I swear if I hear another person say shit like that I'm gonna choke them out.

[Todd Z]

I watched it last night also. It is still tough to watch. It get's me very pissed off.

Carguy are you saying you don't agree with the war? We should just pull out and let the terrorists have a training ground then attack us again on our own soil. I don't believe it is a war but more of ongoing prevention that will probably never end.

[DirtyMax]

Any chance you recall what the show was called?

[Crawlin]

I think he was agreeing with the guy he quoted in that we need to keep showing this (to a certain extent) in order to remind people why we are doing some of the things we are globally. People forget too quickly. It's amazing to look back at how many flag wavers that were out on that Thursday night all along HWY100 and other streets with candles and everything, that now are the biggest pussies complaining about our war on terrorism and only want to look shortsighted at the "Blame Bush" band wagon

[GTSLOW]

Carguy is a liberal. :goof

[gottwins?]

I think he was agreeing with the guy he quoted in that we need to keep showing this (to a certain extent) in order to remind people why we are doing some of the things we are globally. People forget too quickly. It's amazing to look back at how many flag wavers that were out on that Thursday night all along HWY100 and other streets with candles and everything, that now are the biggest pussies complaining about our war on terrorism and only want to look shortsighted at the "Blame Bush" band wagon

Yep, everybody was gun-ho then.

[Car Guy]

Carguy are you saying you don't agree with the war? We should just pull out and let the terrorists have a training ground then attack us again on our own soil. I don't believe it is a war but more of ongoing prevention that will probably never end.

See following quote by Chris.....:thumbsup



I think he was agreeing with the guy he quoted in that we need to keep showing this (to a certain extent) in order to remind people why we are doing some of the things we are globally. People forget too quickly. It's amazing to look back at how many flag wavers that were out on that Thursday night all along HWY100 and other streets with candles and everything, that now are the biggest pussies complaining about our war on terrorism and only want to look shortsighted at the "Blame Bush" band wagon

I couldn't have said it better, well maybe but this is exactly how I feel.....:)



Carguy is a liberal. :goof

Yeah, I'm also Santa Claus.....:xmas

[-stew-]

What? we were attacked? I thought that the building was set to explode. You could totally tell by the explosions as the floors collapsed SO evenly. Couldn't have been a plane. Those were tomahawk cruise missles...

Fucking idiots... I swear if I hear another person say shit like that I'm gonna choke them out.

There is an asshole I see regularly at the Starbucks by my house who is always wearing assorted "Question 9/11" shirts. I'm pretty laid back, but this dude makes me rage every time I see him and I have to calm myself down and talk myself out of starting shit with him.


People forget too quickly. It's amazing to look back at how many flag wavers that were out on that Thursday night all along HWY100 and other streets with candles and everything, that now are the biggest pussies complaining about our war on terrorism and only want to look shortsighted at the "Blame Bush" band wagon


I was working at the Trak Auto on HWY 100 and Oklahoma that night. That was some crazy shit. A guy came in and bought like seven or eight cases of oil because he heard they were closing all the ports and no oil was coming into the country. (We told him this was non-returnable and marked the receipt as so.)

[MoCkiN U]

It was called "102 minutes that changed america/Witness to 9.11"

I watched it with the wifey earlier in the day and couldnt turn away. I sat there with my 2yr old on my lap just knowing the world I know and that she knows is different. For my parents they had pearl harbor and we have 9/11. I hope she doesnt see something like this

[TheRX7Project]

It was called "102 minutes that changed america/Witness to 9.11"

I watched it with the wifey earlier in the day and couldnt turn away. I sat there with my 2yr old on my lap just knowing the world I know and that she knows is different. For my parents they had pearl harbor and we have 9/11. I hope she doesnt see something like this

Isn't that the truth. Even if the "best thing we can do is continue on as usual" Lord knows that's not possible. It's always going to be a little different than before.

[05caddyext]

why would people that question 9/11 piss you off so bad? how many years did it take before the government admitted they knew about pearl harbor? there are a lot of unanswered questions from that day, but it was cemented that you were anti-american if you questioned what happened. I don't believe there is much question about what happened in new york, but there are certainly plenty of questions about the pentagon.

Anyone watch that show with Jesse Ventura? He just did a special on 9/11. Raised some interesting questions. Many of the families of people lost that day have a huge problem with the "official story." Check it out.

[MoCkiN U]

but there are certainly plenty of questions about the pentagon.

YES!! I agree.

I also have MAJOR MAJOR questions about what happened before that plane hit that pennsylvania (sp?) field.

[VroomPshhTsi]

Damn, now I can't find that show again. Mockin' U was right on the name. Just so surreal to see first hand as it happened. It was all footage of people who picked a up a camera and just shot film. Lots of new stuff I had not seen before.

Post up if you see it on again. I checked History channel and I can't find it in their schedule.

[Crawlin]

That day split our country from the inside. Forget the financial and economic impacts... our social impact was even greater and it made it "cool" for people to question what happened.

One thing that I will say, is most of those people that "question" certain things, like to look at all the facts as they are presented one at a time. I will say, when you take one fact, you can definitely get to questioning how certain things are possible. However, when you take a couple of those same people's "facts" alot of time they are contradictory. So it washes them out. And you know just how crazy some people are when they can devote that much time to something like this. Just think of your own lives and how LITTLE time you have with your friends/family/etc... Shit I barely have enough time with homework and work and friends and family and girlfriend and school, etc... I can only read a magazine when I'm on the shitter, haha. Other than that, I'm screwed most of the day, haha.

Certain things are weird. The Pentagon and the PA field crashes are definitely weird. In my mind, I could see the PA field crash being the plane was shot down by the military as a more reasonable explanation. Especially since I think it was the last plane down.

PS - any legitimacy that show had, got thrown out soon as Jesse Ventura is a host. I'm sorry. That's like putting Ted Nugent out there for NRA president now. No ones gonna take him seriously cause of how crazy one sided he is.

[Turbo-Triumph]

everybody has different opinions on "the war on terror". mine is, its "the war for oil".

And no, i do not believe the planes were the soul cause of the tower collapse, ESPECIALLY tower 7.

I was, for a small while, a full out conspiracy theorist, until i realized the facts they all quote, are not only sometimes incorrect, sometimes skewed, and dont coincide with reason.

IMO tower 7, and the pentagon, are in no way the result of anything except planned demolition, and/or explosive charges.

I mean... how could a plane take our light poles with its wings, keep flying more than 200 yards, and then squeeze in between power lines... and hit the pentagon? and of course, theres no video of it.. it was confinscated... yet numerous other planes get there wings clipped by lightpoles all the time?

ugh im ganna stop typing here. these opinions are black and white, and no one could ever convince anyone of anything related to the subject, anyways.

just know my opinion would i guess be
"something fishy went on, and now were in a war that is draining our economy, so we need to say fuck it and start conquering mother fuckers again"

[Prince Valiant]

why would people that question 9/11 piss you off so bad? Asking questions doesn't piss me off.

What does is refusing to hear the answers. None of the so-called evidence or "therories" (which is what they often term their "nonsense" in an attempt make their idiocy sound smarter) has ever stood up to evidence or reason.

It's one thing to be investigative, inquisitive...it's fair and right to question. But at some point, one has to come to an answer...and yes, there is only ONE right answer.


how many years did it take before the government admitted they knew about pearl harbor?
I don't know...when exactly did they reveal this? :rolleyes:
:sgay

[Reverend Cooper]

just in case your wathing the history channel and didnt know, the Packers lost

[Prince Valiant]

everybody has different opinions on "the war on terror". mine is, its "the war for oil". Where's that oil in Afghanistan? You know it's not exactly Saudi Arabia...or even wyoming for that matter.


I mean... how could a plane take our light poles with its wings, keep flying more than 200 yards, and then squeeze in between power lines... and hit the pentagon? and of course, theres no video of it.. it was confinscated... yet numerous other planes get there wings clipped by lightpoles all the time?Cars take out light poles too...quite easily, actually. And believe me, these planes are MUCH heavier, larger, and built to take FAR harder impact than any car...

put it this way, West Bend had a private jet...took off from manitiwoc, hit a deer past the take-off reject point, took off and flew to milwaukee...the deer was missing it's head, and the wing had a large impact point on it. The point? Plane flew fine.

But say the plane couldn't fly anymore....a plane traveling some 600 mph doesn't just drop at the spot where it's wing got clipped.

Oh, and no vid?
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZaPoD_7TmNc&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZaPoD_7TmNc&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Not to mention the countless eyewitness acounts of "a plane hitting the pentegon"





Here's what I don't get: How can someone be a big conspiracist before...then supposedly coming around, only to believe that much of the conspiracy theories are flawed....but then still believe half the attacks are still the result of some overt military operations?

[Goat Roper]

Asking questions doesn't piss me off.

What does is refusing to hear the answers. None of the so-called evidence or "therories" (which is what they often term their "nonsense" in an attempt make their idiocy sound smarter) has ever stood up to evidence or reason.

It's one thing to be investigative, inquisitive...it's fair and right to question. But at some point, one has to come to an answer...and yes, there is only ONE right answer.



Prince and I don't agree on alot of things but without question he could not be any more right.

[Yooformula]

I think there should be a channel like that so that the general public that didnt have friends or family die there be reminded and not become so complacent again.

I do believe that one plane was shot out of the sky but IMO I believe it was probably necessary due to be being hijacked already and unless we wanted to see another plane hit another building, it needed to be taken down. But to believe that shit was rigged and all a conspiracy you would have to IGNORE the hundreds of eye witnesses. I just think people cant get their minds wrapped around how sick of an act this was and want to believe that there was more to it or just cant believe that everyone's laid back attitude contributed to this.

If you dont think a plane can fly without clipped wings, you should probably watch some plane crash videos and really pay attention. You would be surprised what planes are capable of enduring prior to crashes.

[Turbo-Triumph]

Where's that oil in Afghanistan? You know it's not exactly Saudi Arabia...or even wyoming for that matter.

Cars take out light poles too...quite easily, actually. And believe me, these planes are MUCH heavier, larger, and built to take FAR harder impact than any car...

put it this way, West Bend had a private jet...took off from manitiwoc, hit a deer past the take-off reject point, took off and flew to milwaukee...the deer was missing it's head, and the wing had a large impact point on it. The point? Plane flew fine.

But say the plane couldn't fly anymore....a plane traveling some 600 mph doesn't just drop at the spot where it's wing got clipped.

Oh, and no vid?
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZaPoD_7TmNc&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZaPoD_7TmNc&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Not to mention the countless eyewitness acounts of "a plane hitting the pentegon"





Here's what I don't get: How can someone be a big conspiracist before...then supposedly coming around, only to believe that much of the conspiracy theories are flawed....but then still believe half the attacks are still the result of some overt military operations?

Ok now hold on a second....

we still had troops stationed at oil drilling rigs last i knew, but i do not keep up with the war. i just remember listening to my friends stories (who was station on a base near an oil drilling rig) saying "it seemed pointless to be out there" and "nothing went on for months" ('friend' is brother of one of my friends)

2nd, this is the very first time i seen any video.

3rd, watch tower 7..... then watch a controlled demolition.... then tell me you dont see a comparason.

4rth, i dont care what anyone has to say, were there so rich people can get richer.. not to "liberate countries" not to "get back at" anyone.

if we were there to stand up for our selvs, the war on "terror" would have lasted 1 day. and it would have been over by the time the big red "nuke" button was let up.

if we were there to liberate countries, we should have just gone in and said "if your innoccent and want to be liberated... GTFO" and the went on carpet bombing.

Like i said.... everyone has an opinion, mine, flawed, yours, flawed.

No one knows what really happened, or if anyone knew about anything aside from the people involved. and they arent talking.

I try not to believe anyones one storey, because no one is telling the same one. which means, no one is telling the truth. i try to forge my own opinions, and mine is simply were there for oil, weather indirectly, or directly, right, wrong or inbetween, thats my opinion.

Your opinion is my opinion sucks. and my opinion is im not going to loose sleep over your opinion. everyone has an opinion, and likley nothing said on this forum will change anyones opinion.

this subject is black and white.

"god bless america, were the best, no conspiracys ever, were told the truth and nothing but!"

"we got lied to, everyones dead for no reason, the war is pointless"

pick a camp, and pitch a tent.. its ganna be one hell of a thread.

[Yooformula]

so a controlled demolition was staged to go off at the exact spot that the plane hit? so the planes hitting the top and the extreme heat from the fires didnt cause the metal to weaken thereby causing each floor to pancake ontop of the one below it? because from the vids I saw and from people I know that were STANDING there watching it, they say otherwise. sure there may be a comparison but I would guess any building collapsing from the top down would look the same imo.

[Turbo-Triumph]

so a controlled demolition was staged to go off at the exact spot that the plane hit? so the planes hitting the top and the extreme heat from the fires didnt cause the metal to weaken thereby causing each floor to pancake ontop of the one below it? because from the vids I saw and from people I know that were STANDING there watching it, they say otherwise. sure there may be a comparison but I would guess any building collapsing from the top down would look the same imo.

no plane hit tower 7 :goof

[05caddyext]

No-one saw a plane hit the pentagon. That video doesn't show anything. It has also been stated that videos shot from nearby gas station cameras were taken by the FBI and have never been made public. There are no videos of a plane hitting the pentagon period. It has also been shown that jet fuel does not burn hot enough to melt steel. What that means I don't know. I don't go so far as to say that the entire thing was a conspiracy, I do say there are some unexplained things to me.

I read a book called 9-11 The Big Lie. It is very interesting and well written. There are actual reports from the NTSB that show that at least 1 of the planes that went missing that day actually landed safe. I believe this to be a mistake amid all the confusion that was happening, but it was reported by the NTSB. What sucks is that most of the theories are brought forth by stupid people, or people who are just rediciously unbelievable with no evidence.

Oh and the stuff about Pearl Harbor- it is widely accepted that the President and other top officials knew an attack was eminent, yet nothing was done. Do some research, you'll find plenty of info on that topic.

[British_Ben]

Where's that oil in Afghanistan? You know it's not exactly Saudi Arabia...or even wyoming for that matter.

Cars take out light poles too...quite easily, actually. And believe me, these planes are MUCH heavier, larger, and built to take FAR harder impact than any car...

put it this way, West Bend had a private jet...took off from manitiwoc, hit a deer past the take-off reject point, took off and flew to milwaukee...the deer was missing it's head, and the wing had a large impact point on it. The point? Plane flew fine.

But say the plane couldn't fly anymore....a plane traveling some 600 mph doesn't just drop at the spot where it's wing got clipped.

Oh, and no vid?
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZaPoD_7TmNc&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZaPoD_7TmNc&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Not to mention the countless eyewitness acounts of "a plane hitting the pentegon"





Here's what I don't get: How can someone be a big conspiracist before...then supposedly coming around, only to believe that much of the conspiracy theories are flawed....but then still believe half the attacks are still the result of some overt military operations?

Quick question... Could you please point out the 44 ft. tall, half-a-football-field long Boeing 757 in this video?

[Myles]

Let me know when you find it.

[-stew-]

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1230517.html

[TheRX7Project]

Reasonable people are entitled to wish that our government had been better prepared and more alert. But those who peddle fantasies that this country encouraged, permitted or actually carried out the attacks are libeling the truth — and disgracing the memories of the thousands who died that day.

Amen.

Dan, maybe you've been smoking too much.

[Crawlin]

I do love the controlled demolition argument....

in order for the building to collapse all the way down in a controlled demolition, you'd have to have explosives on EVERY floor. So 107 floors. Otherwise you'd just have debris falling down the side of a perfectly stable bottom half of a building. And on TOP of that, you'd need 107 actual triggers to make sure that you can light off the initial set on the floors that the planes actually end up hitting. Hell, you can figure that the plane is only gonna hit the top half of the buildings, so that means you really only need 50 triggers.


if we were there to liberate countries, we should have just gone in and said "if your innoccent and want to be liberated... GTFO" and the went on carpet bombing.

That statement just proves how STUPID you are. I'm sorry, I really hate getting into arguments over internet, but sometimes just can't help it. So we say that, and who the fuck do you think is going to stay for that carpet bombing? DO you really think the bad guys would stay? "oh i know about 500 tons of bombs are coming right over my head but I love my 40 acres of sand" SUUUUURE. And that nuke thing would never happen no matter who's in charge. The consequences of that would be 10x's worse than anything we've ever seen. Not in physical retaliation, but just in economic and dimplomatic repercussions from other countries.

So if we have troops stations at water filtration plants and irrigations channels, that means this war is also JUST about water too? Oil and Water only...

[Myles]

Is thermite something that is present in jets, the fuel or luggage?

[-stew-]

Is thermite something that is present in jets, the fuel or luggage?


What does this have to do with anything?

To those who believe this was a set up: Why?

[Crawlin]

Thank god for Chemistry class


Another great example of a thermodynamically spontaneous reaction is the thermite reaction. Here, iron oxide (Fe2O3 = rust) and aluminum metal undergo a redox (reduction-oxidation) reaction to form iron metal and aluminum oxide (Al2O3 = alumina):

Fe2O3(s) + 2 Al(s) Al2O3(s) + 2 Fe(l)

This reaction is so exothermic that the iron is actually molten! In fact, thermite has been used for underwater welding. Years ago, students at MIT used thermite to weld trolleys to their tracks as a "prank" (Note: nowadays you would face severe criminal penalties, so don't even think it).



So all you need is rust and aluminum. Think those were present anywhere on the front edge of a wing or nose of a plane and a building?


Thermite is a pyrotechnic composition of a metal powder and a metal oxide, which produces an aluminothermic reaction known as a thermite reaction. It is not explosive, but can create short bursts of extremely high temperatures focused on a very small area for a short period of time.

Thermites can be a diverse class of compositions. The fuels are often aluminium, magnesium, calcium, titanium, zinc, silicon, and boron. The oxidizers can be boron(III) oxide, silicon(IV) oxide, chromium(III) oxide, manganese(IV) oxide, iron(III) oxide, iron(II,III) oxide, copper(II) oxide, and lead(II,III,IV) oxide.[1]

The most common thermite is aluminium-iron(III) oxide.



So all you need is an actual solid metal particles and metal oxide. Then heat to start the chemical reaction... Hmmm... Do you think there was heat up there in that burning building?

For the bold part, could that possibly explain the "flashes" that people reported seeing? Could it also explain the "explosions" people thought they heard, as it wasn't an explosion, but it will have a definite sound to it as the chemical reaction happens.

One thing I will say from being at school, you can pretty much make anything from something else by just changing the element that you are reacting it with and the amount of moles of that element. You will get your expected product but then get other products depending on what you are trying to make.

Hell with enough heat and right components, you could convert all those silicon computer chips into the silicon oxide that it lists above too. Until we know the specific heat of just how hot it got on those floors, we'll never really know.

[Crawlin]

And we'll keep going with the silicon oxide since it is SiO2. Which would be silicon dioxide, which is also known as silica


Silica is used primarily in the production of window glass, drinking glasses and bottled beverages. The majority of optical fibers for telecommunications are also made from silica. It is a primary raw material for many whiteware ceramics such as earthenware, stoneware and porcelain, as well as industrial Portland cement.



Think there was any of that in a building? :)

Again, enough heat for a chemical reaction and you'd be amazed at what the results are. Thermal Dynamics is fun kids!

Now again, I'm not spouting this off as fact. I just see a path that is somewhat logical to me.

[Myles]

Thank god for Chemistry class


(you mean wikipedia :goof )

[Myles]

Aparantly jet fuel doesnt burn too hot. 287.5 °C (549.5 °F) Granted thats open air burning.

1535°C (which is 2795°F) is the melting point of iron.. Assuming that is what the structure was made of. Time to look at conditions which would increase the temps to that point.

[Crawlin]

you know it :)

but chemistry class lead me to search for the right combination ;)

that's why i also said at the bottom, this can't be FACT since it is wikipedia, but it does seem logical :)

[PureSound15]

I think the buildings collapsed because of the planes hitting them -

I don't see how a demolition team could insert expolosives and WIRE them all in multiple buildings without people noticing, or having it look like something "normal."


I DO think that the "plane" that hit the pentagon is bullshit. No, I don't know what it was... but it's amazing how there are no plane "parts" there wasn't a plane removed from the building and there is no video showing a clear image of a plane.

[Goat Roper]

I am floored that people still believe in that crap. Like kids who believed in Santa Claus; you wake up and toys have mysteriously appeared under your tree, must be a magic man with a white beard and flying reindeer that did it. It just couldn't be the much more obvious parents that did it.

No magic here folks, just big eff'ing planes full of fuel.

[Prince Valiant]

No-one saw a plane hit the pentagon.Wrong.

It's not hard to find:
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911_pentagon_eyewitnesses.html

They're all real people who I'm sure get harassed by truthers daily.

Oh and the stuff about Pearl Harbor- it is widely accepted that the President and other top officials knew an attack was eminent, yet nothing was done. Do some research, you'll find plenty of info on that topic.No, YOU made the claim. Find the official document (or even a serious historian) that shows we knew Pearl Harbor attack (which is what you claim) was iminnent and that we allowed them to attack :rolleyes:

I mean, the claim is illogical. Hell, we could have defended ourselves from the attack AND successfully used that to rally a nation to war had we really known about it. :rolleyes:

Quick question... Could you please point out the 44 ft. tall, half-a-football-field long Boeing 757 in this video?
The allegation is that no video exist of the plane hitting the pentegon...yes, there is. There it is...a simple security camera that's only to film at one frame a second to record cars coming in and out of a parking lot.

As to the plane, moving at 600mph, it moves across the field of view b/w image captures. Combine that we have footage showing the impact, AND plenty of eyewitness accounts, yep...pretty easy to know that a 757 DID indeed hit the pentagon.

[Myles]

So... that really small blur is a 44 ft. tall, half-a-football-field long Boeing 757....

[Prince Valiant]

For those with time and a little inquisitiveness (which is what I'm told all truthers are ever guilty of), here's a great site that puts good effort into answering most all the questions that still linger about 9/11:

Molten steel (http://www.debunking911.com/moltensteel.htm)
Thermite (http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm)
squibs (http://www.debunking911.com/overp.htm)
WTC7 (http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm)

and much much more... (http://www.debunking911.com/index.html)

Terrific site. Even a nut like Alex Jones is impressed.

[Crawlin]

How much space does that camera show? 400 ft? would that be a safe guess?

If the camera only did truly take a pic every 1 seconds. That means the plane would have to travel about 500ft/second to not be in the pic.

So let's do it as an even and say 300mph is about 440ft/second. For a plane that has a cruising speed of about 500mph, do you think this would be possible for the camera who's resolution is mainly for faces and license plates 5 feet away from it, to possibly miss a clear cut picture of a jetliner?


If that camera only took a pic every 2 seconds, than figure it'd only need to be flying at 150mph to be missed by the cameras

[07ROUSHSTG3]

there was a show on the history channel a couple months ago about all the conspiracy theorys behind 9/11. had many demolition, pyro, mechanical experts on there. you guys that doubt that planes took down the buildings should watch it.

[Myles]

That is possible, but for a Jet liner that is.. well.. insanely big? Just seems odd to me.

[-stew-]

I think the buildings collapsed because of the planes hitting them -

I don't see how a demolition team could insert expolosives and WIRE them all in multiple buildings without people noticing, or having it look like something "normal."


I DO think that the "plane" that hit the pentagon is bullshit. No, I don't know what it was... but it's amazing how there are no plane "parts" there wasn't a plane removed from the building and there is no video showing a clear image of a plane.



http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm


Pictures start about half way down.

[Prince Valiant]

So... that really small blur is a 44 ft. tall, half-a-football-field long Boeing 757....Perhaps. But more likely the plane traveled through the field of view in between shots. Given that the camera is not the most sophisticated of units, it also easy to see that even HAD the plane been in view during the shot, it would have been an indecipherable blur....something passes by at 600mph even with the best camera's, that close, will be hard to decipher.

But here's the interesting thing....YOU'VE placed an arbitrary standard onto what constitutes proof. For you, you'll only accept a video of a plane, in clear view, hitting the pentagon to accept this fact. Despite that there is literally MOUNTAINS of evidence to corroborate this fact, you've decided to disqualify them unconditionally.

Don't forget...you have to have litterally hundreds to thousands of people lying saying that "we saw a plane hit the pentagon"

Eivdence of plane parts all around (albeit, in the condition one might expect after hitting a reinforced building at such a high rate, and then catching on fire for some time), pictures of this, eyewitness testimony to these facts.

[juicedimpss]

How much space does that camera show? 400 ft? would that be a safe guess?

If the camera only did truly take a pic every 1 seconds. That means the plane would have to travel about 500ft/second to not be in the pic.

So let's do it as an even and say 300mph is about 440ft/second. For a plane that has a cruising speed of about 500mph, do you think this would be possible for the camera who's resolution is mainly for faces and license plates 5 feet away from it, to possibly miss a clear cut picture of a jetliner?


If that camera only took a pic every 2 seconds, than figure it'd only need to be flying at 150mph to be missed by the cameras


math sure puts things in prospective......

[Crawlin]

That is possible, but for a Jet liner that is.. well.. insanely big? Just seems odd to me.

Myles, my calculations for the camera really have nothing to do with SIZE of the plane. If you have a camera only taking a pic every second or two, FULL SECONDS, it could be a plane, it could be a car, it could be Jesse Owens running(watching blazing saddles, haha) and the camera would miss it. Hell it could be the MOON floating by, camera will miss it if the space of the view angle and the speeds were what i posted.

[Crawlin]

I guess one thing that I would like to ask, would be what was SO important about Building 7 that if it's true it was a demolition, why wouldn't they do buildings 3,4,5, and 6 at the same time since it WAS closer?

I figure it'd be easier to explain if you were trying to make it look like terrorism.

6 World Trade Center looks to be more important with the United States Customs Service and the U.S. Commodities Exchange.

4 World Trade Center looks to be where all the gold was.

7 was just a bunch of banks and insurance groups. In the words of the military, what strategic value would it have?

[Myles]

Perhaps. But more likely the plane traveled through the field of view in between shots. Given that the camera is not the most sophisticated of units, it also easy to see that even HAD the plane been in view during the shot, it would have been an indecipherable blur....something passes by at 600mph even with the best camera's, that close, will be hard to decipher.

But here's the interesting thing....YOU'VE placed an arbitrary standard onto what constitutes proof. For you, you'll only accept a video of a plane, in clear view, hitting the pentagon to accept this fact. Despite that there is literally MOUNTAINS of evidence to corroborate this fact, you've decided to disqualify them unconditionally.

Don't forget...you have to have litterally hundreds to thousands of people lying saying that "we saw a plane hit the pentagon"

Eivdence of plane parts all around (albeit, in the condition one might expect after hitting a reinforced building at such a high rate, and then catching on fire for some time), pictures of this, eyewitness testimony to these facts.

What constitutes proof for me? Nothing does. Everything encompassing this whole thing is something that I have been reading into for a long time. Also, I like arguing regardless if I am right or wrong.

I have researched both sides of the fence. I still like touching the subject and pick the side with the most crazy and fanatical people. I had alot of questions also regarding some other things that upon Crawlin showing me some stuff I was able to find more info to read.

So you can get all mad and tell me I am saying people are lying. I am simply saying, the video that was posted is nothing either side should EVER go off of. It shows jack fucking shit, and Crawlin has decided to prove why.

I may be into conspiracies, but it's other ones. The WTC incident just had quite alot of controversy around it and I like controversy.

So, before you go around saying I am discounting everything and staying hard to one area, read what I said before, where I was simply asking questions. I don't believe I said anything along the lines of. OMG YOU GUYS ARE STOOPID PLANES DID NOT TAKE THEM DOWN THE GOVERMENTS DID.

Assuming makes an ass out of you and me.

By the way, my stance on the WTC things is, "Some shit doesn't add up, others do. People died that shouldn't have died."

[Myles]

I guess one thing that I would like to ask, would be what was SO important about Building 7 that if it's true it was a demolition, why wouldn't they do buildings 3,4,5, and 6 at the same time since it WAS closer?

I figure it'd be easier to explain if you were trying to make it look like terrorism.

6 World Trade Center looks to be more important with the United States Customs Service and the U.S. Commodities Exchange.

4 World Trade Center looks to be where all the gold was.

7 was just a bunch of banks and insurance groups. In the words of the military, what strategic value would it have?


7 is said to have a bunch of CIA docs and shit in it.

[juicedimpss]

myles,the other thing that concerns me at this point is there has been so much time for people to edit videos,how do you know you are looking at a clean original?

[Myles]

myles,the other thing that concerns me at this point is there has been so much time for people to edit videos,how do you know you are looking at a clean original?

That is another that is brought up by many sides. Did the gov edit shit? Did the truth people edit shit? In a digital age its hard to find out and know for fact.

[Prince Valiant]

For a plane that has a cruising speed of about 500mph 530mph is the simple cruise speed...

Keep in mind, these guys were in descent...which in a plane will increase speed...and in this mode, the plane can fairly easily exceed that cruise speed. Much of the eyewitness testimony indicates the noise of the plane flying even that low in descent indicates that the power settings were still quite high...so it's more than possible for them to exceed 600mph.

Keep in mind, we're always supposed to keep our eyes out for this "44ft tall" airplane....which makes the plane seem much larger! Sure, the top of the tail is 44 feet high when the gears down, plane on the ground. Plane itself is only ~ 32ft tall gear up, and the tail about 20 ft of that and now we're looking for a much smaller surface area of less than half the size this 44ft tall plane implied.

Again on WTC7...you think they were the only docs of that sort? No copies of files, or on computer? Why go through all that hassle? Why destroy it then and there? Who did this help and why?

If you look closely at the vid, at the frame at 0:26 seconds, you can actually see what resembles the tail just outside the point of impact. Is it? I can't say for certain....but, when combined with all the other evidence (including the debris, eyewitness accounts, coupled with the irrefutable evidence of the attack at the WTC and PA), yep...I'm inclined to think that's the tail.

[Crawlin]

7 is said to have a bunch of CIA docs and shit in it.

Got ya... hadn't seen that. One would assume shit like that would be backed up on tape and at Langley as well in a vault? You know, the whole government will spend twice thing? haha.


Even with that, I don't see that as an importance. One that would make it even less appealing I guess with only government specific information in it to begin with.

Like, "let's take down our own stuff which we probably hae backups of anyways on a building far out of the damage path"

The only real argument I could see to what I posted about the proximity of the buildings, is that if there was someone/group behind this, they probably just assumed with 107 floors times 2 crashing down, those other buildings would for sure be coming down too

[-stew-]

7 is said to have a bunch of CIA docs and shit in it.

While some things don't add up, this is the one thing that really erks me. The truthers all spout this black-helicopter-secret-room-the-rich-getting-richer-this-will-be-a-good-excuse-forwar shit. If "they" needed to destroy evidence, or spawn a war, or get rich; isn't there an easier way to do it that orchestrate a major attack on the United States of America?

[Crawlin]

530mph is the simple cruise speed...

Keep in mind, these guys were in descent...which in a plane will increase speed...and in this mode, the plane can fairly easily exceed that cruise speed. Much of the eyewitness testimony indicates the noise of the plane flying even that low in descent indicates that the power settings were still quite high...so it's more than possible for them to exceed 600mph.



I know Chris, I just was using lower numbers to simply make the point. Using higher specifics just wasn't needed since my calculations only need about half of the cruising speed, haha

[Myles]

Not everything adds up as to why wt7 would have been a target outside of the supposed CIA docs that were not backed up according to some documents I have to find again. Being at work I don't have anything I was reading and using for my script stuff.

So the whole 7 thing would be to cover up events that they only had paper copies of that they didn't want anyone to know about.

[Myles]

While some things don't add up, this is the one thing that really erks me. The truthers all spout this black-helicopter-secret-room-the-rich-getting-richer-this-will-be-a-good-excuse-forwar shit. If "they" needed to destroy evidence, or spawn a war, or get rich; isn't there an easier way to do it that orchestrate a major attack on the United States of America?

The whole thing that people get at is they needed a major conflict to push legislation through that is frowned upon. The going to war thing would be a cover to enact other things.

[-stew-]

The whole thing that people get at is they needed a major conflict to push legislation through that is frowned upon. The going to war thing would be a cover to enact other things.


Then why not set up a faux attack on a ship(s) at sea? Would be easier to fake, enact and cover up.

[Crawlin]

Again, good point Myles.

I'm only in this for the purley construction aspect of it, haha.

But I wonder what else could have been done that would have prevented as many lives that were lost? Did those that planned this expect the buildings to fall as soon as they did and then just hit the ignition switch for the supposed explosive devices since they weren't really ready? Hoping more people got out?

Figure an attack on a huge power plant would have been better and knock out electricity for half the united states for a month. Less lives but a greater affect on the day to day. Imagine wall street down for a month, not just a week. Imagine the inability for a waste treatment plant to operate and provide fresh water to outlying areas?

The impact would be far greater on something like that to cause our nation to want to go after the people responsible. Imagine half the US not able to get their porn on demand, especially with the technological era we were just going through at that point. '99-'01 was pretty much the pinnacle of new technology in relation to computer systems

[Myles]

Then why not set up a faux attack on a ship(s) at sea? Would be easier to fake, enact and cover up.

Similar to what they say about nam? I believe nam is the one that people say that is how we got into it..

I don't know, from what I was reading there was someone on record stating that they would need a tragedy similar to that of Pearl Harbor. Again, no where near my stuff so I couldn't tell you who claimed who said what.

[Myles]

Again, good point Myles.

I'm only in this for the purley construction aspect of it, haha.

But I wonder what else could have been done that would have prevented as many lives that were lost? Did those that planned this expect the buildings to fall as soon as they did and then just hit the ignition switch for the supposed explosive devices since they weren't really ready? Hoping more people got out?

Figure an attack on a huge power plant would have been better and knock out electricity for half the united states for a month. Less lives but a greater affect on the day to day. Imagine wall street down for a month, not just a week. Imagine the inability for a waste treatment plant to operate and provide fresh water to outlying areas?

The impact would be far greater on something like that to cause our nation to want to go after the people responsible. Imagine half the US not able to get their porn on demand, especially with the technological era we were just going through at that point. '99-'01 was pretty much the pinnacle of new technology in relation to computer systems

Ever see the Guide Stones? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guidestones

There is speculation that the stones are part of the group that wants to put the NWO or One world government into action is responsible for this. The stones imply that depopulation is needed. So that means killing off people.

Same thing with the swine flu. MANY theories regarding the swine flu.

[Crawlin]

That would make sense. And I agree, world populaton does need to decrease. Just as long as I'm not one of statistics, hahah

[Myles]

Why does it need to decrease though? For the enviroments sake? Who gets to decide who dies and who doesnt? A guy from Germany got an idea from the US once, he ended up killing a bunch of people because of it. They called is Social Darwinism.

[-stew-]

Not everything adds up as to why wt7 would have been a target outside of the supposed CIA docs that were not backed up according to some documents I have to find again. Being at work I don't have anything I was reading and using for my script stuff.

So the whole 7 thing would be to cover up events that they only had paper copies of that they didn't want anyone to know about.



If 7 was packed with paper documents, why demo it? Wouldn't burning it be better? If you collapse the building the paper is still there, but at the bottom of a pile, or blown out a window, or blowing around as the rubble is cleaned up.

[Myles]

If 7 was packed with paper documents, why demo it? Wouldn't burning it be better? If you collapse the building the paper is still there, but at the bottom of a pile, or blown out a window, or blowing around as the rubble is cleaned up.

And the inconsistancy of all things show up. Apparantly that floor did burn, dunno for sure tho. They only had 1 or 2 guys who were actually up there and knew what happened (destruction wise) He died 2 or 3 years after.

[Prince Valiant]

Similar to what they say about nam? I believe nam is the one that people say that is how we got into it.
Except that an attack in the gulf of tonkin DID occur...the USS Madox, which itself was an act of war. The uncertainty is over the second attack which a second boat believed it was under attack (this happened the next day or so, same area, so there was increased alertness/excitment to begin with), and the US conducted a response...later they could find no evidence of engagement.

[Myles]

Except that an attack in the gulf of tonkin DID occur...the USS Madox, which itself was an act of war. The uncertainty is over the second attack which a second boat believed it was under attack (this happened the next day or so, same area, so there was increased alertness/excitment to begin with), and the US conducted a response...later they could find no evidence of engagement.

That is what it was. Couldn't remember for sure.

[Crawlin]

Why does it need to decrease though? For the enviroments sake? Who gets to decide who dies and who doesnt? A guy from Germany got an idea from the US once, he ended up killing a bunch of people because of it. They called is Social Darwinism.

I believe population of the world needs to decrease. When you aren't contributing in some positive way, what is your purpose here? It's just a personal belief. All those fuckers in prison. Murderers, rapists, etc... Don't need them, they can go. If most of these criminals are being categorized under a psychological deficiency being the main reason for their actions, and since most of that shit is hereditary, why should we keep worrying about their offspring.

And then along the lines of offspring... The more people there are, the more there will be to the exponential factor.

As weird as it may seem, the guidestones do have relevant points to them. Who wouldn't want to live in a world that's government and judicial system were JUST ? Who wouldn't want to leave room for nature since some of our most important products COME from the environtment. And I'm putting OIL as the last on the list

[Myles]

Well I guess that would include me. Having a psychological deficiency would have qualified me for forced sterilization that had back in the day. Since I have bi-polar, and most criminals have bi-polar I would probably be lumped into that.

[Crawlin]

Sucks to be you :) But I thought your bi-polar was based off of whether you drank beer or Korbel and Coke? :)

So you believe that people have the right to just keep having kids, no matter if they are financially able to support them or not? And let those that are responsible help pay for them?

[Crawlin]

But you are a contributing member to society. You have a job. You haven't killed or raped.... you haven't killed someone.... :) hahah. If you did, then you know what, you had your chance.

[Myles]

Sucks to be you :) But I thought your bi-polar was based off of whether you drank beer or Korbel and Coke? :)

So you believe that people have the right to just keep having kids, no matter if they are financially able to support them or not? And let those that are responsible help pay for them?

I would have to dig the medical records out, it was back when I was in high school that they diagnosed me with that. The Korbel brings out my schizo.

Honestly if I had my way, I would probably off half of the world, just cause they are stupid. There is no win win situation with that.

[05caddyext]

Pearl Harbor.

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/pearl_harbor.htm

[Turbo-Triumph]

I cant believe someone said we didnt know about pearl harbor before it happened. lol

C'mon guys... end this thread before were talking about world war 1, and end up all meeting up for a big brawl. lol

[Turbo-Triumph]

I do love the controlled demolition argument....

in order for the building to collapse all the way down in a controlled demolition, you'd have to have explosives on EVERY floor. So 107 floors. Otherwise you'd just have debris falling down the side of a perfectly stable bottom half of a building. And on TOP of that, you'd need 107 actual triggers to make sure that you can light off the initial set on the floors that the planes actually end up hitting. Hell, you can figure that the plane is only gonna hit the top half of the buildings, so that means you really only need 50 triggers.



That statement just proves how STUPID you are. I'm sorry, I really hate getting into arguments over internet, but sometimes just can't help it. So we say that, and who the fuck do you think is going to stay for that carpet bombing? DO you really think the bad guys would stay? "oh i know about 500 tons of bombs are coming right over my head but I love my 40 acres of sand" SUUUUURE. And that nuke thing would never happen no matter who's in charge. The consequences of that would be 10x's worse than anything we've ever seen. Not in physical retaliation, but just in economic and dimplomatic repercussions from other countries.

So if we have troops stations at water filtration plants and irrigations channels, that means this war is also JUST about water too? Oil and Water only...

We obviously would tell them about the carpet bombing, and obviously would go about it in a more delicate way, say, "this is a war zone, and if your not fighting 'there' war, then it would be wise to evacuate"

I cant believe you are so narrow minded.... Close your eyes and imagine a world were the govorment lies. Now open them, and realize your in it.

One day, 35 years from now, when someone finds some sort of evidence or something, PROVING the envolvment of the Bush family, post up an add on CL with your most dignified appology, and i will accept it. :rolf


STUPID!! lol (kidding)

Opinions,... opinions....

[British_Ben]

I thought this was going to turn into a shit storm, but it's actually quite a civilized discussion. Good job everyone.

The thing is, whether you have doubts about 9/11 or you believe the 9/11 commission report word for word, there are people, good, honest, patriotic people with questions. Why not just answer them? The truth movement is about seeking truth, not theorizing on conspiracy.

Crawlin's math make sense, so why doesn't the government just release the other camera's footage and put everyone's mind to rest?

The WTC towers fell in the path of most resistance from a plane crash in the upper 3rd of the building, so why not show hard proof as to why?

WTC building 7 fell in the path of most resistance from a large piece of debris hitting it while other WTC building surrounding the WTC towers were functionally destroyed from the WTC towers coming down, but stayed standing never-the-less. Why not explain that, properly, officially? They did not explain why WTC 7 collapsed in the 911 commission report, why?

I have questions, and I think most people do, an official answer which actually makes sense would be fine with me.

[TheRX7Project]

I can't believe people are still discussing this as if the government was in on it.

[Lash]

It was global warming that did it. Heated up the steel and shit...

[Crawlin]

Crawlin's math make sense, so why doesn't the government just release the other camera's footage and put everyone's mind to rest?

That's the part that doesn't make sense. Because like my math stated, a missile could have flown by there and the footage would be exactly the same. I do believe it was a plane though.

It was interesting to hear just how many places around that area have cameras and what happened to them.

[-stew-]

Chris, in the link I provided in my post quoting Ryan, there are pictures of plane wreckage inside the Pentagon, as well as plane debris where the plane penetrated the fifth ring of the building. Many answers are provided, but you have to be willing to believe them.



www.debunking911.com

Has a lot of answers for those who will accept them.

[VroomPshhTsi]

...

[lordairgtar]

Chris, in the link I provided in my post quoting Ryan, there are pictures of plane wreckage inside the Pentagon, as well as plane debris where the plane penetrated the fifth ring of the building. Many answers are provided, but you have to be willing to believe them.



www.debunking911.com (http://www.debunking911.com)

Has a lot of answers for those who will accept them.
looks like he fixed it

[VroomPshhTsi]

I am the last person to believe conspiracy theories, but seriously it was the Pentagon, it had to have had 200+ cameras around that place. How can there not be one with a better view/higher quality that shows the plane hitting?

[Goat Roper]

A good friend from the D.C. area is friends with someone who was on the road when the plane went into the Pentagon. We discussed it as we drove by the spot they went over and into the Pentagon from while I was there back in October. The man made obstacles that he had to go over caused him to over compensate for some lift which was why he started to clip things so early.

For those that have been to Arlington Memorial Cemetery, this would have flown over the FAR southern edge of the cemetery, so you know what kind of terrain he had to deal with. It wasn't a straight in shot either. Imagine a straight line from Southgate Road into the Pentagon from this Google maps; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=washington+d.c.l&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Washington,+District+of+Columbia&gl=us&ei=kRAwS8iaHIXZnAf79t36CA&ved=0CBsQ8gEwAg&ll=38.869769,-77.065187&spn=0.014802,0.033023&t=h&z=16

If you look at the terrain map you can see why he needed the angle; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=washington+d.c.l&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Washington,+District+of+Columbia&gl=us&ei=kRAwS8iaHIXZnAf79t36CA&ved=0CBsQ8gEwAg&ll=38.869769,-77.065187&spn=0.029604,0.066047&t=p&z=15

You can see on this that Southgate Road gave him enough of a path in that he just followed it; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=washington+d.c.l&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Washington,+District+of+Columbia&gl=us&ei=kRAwS8iaHIXZnAf79t36CA&ved=0CBsQ8gEwAg&ll=38.870846,-77.061453&spn=0.007401,0.016512&t=h&z=17

This would have been the view looking down Southgate from the Pentagon; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=washington+d.c.l&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Washington,+District+of+Columbia&gl=us&ei=kRAwS8iaHIXZnAf79t36CA&ved=0CBsQ8gEwAg&ll=38.870433,-77.060235&spn=0.0037,0.008256&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=38.870741,-77.060006&panoid=9vpyQdXsZeZKGCi5ZqR-dg&cbp=12,285.99,,0,6.23

From the edge of Southgate towards the Pentagon; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=washington+d.c.l&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Washington,+District+of+Columbia&gl=us&ei=kRAwS8iaHIXZnAf79t36CA&ved=0CBsQ8gEwAg&ll=38.869727,-77.068963&spn=0.003717,0.008256&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=38.870318,-77.065239&panoid=Y9zqsbu2inxiG1bKUrZnRg&cbp=12,85.78,,0,7.16

Resulting angle of attack

http://pentagon.spacelist.org/images/commandbunker.jpg

Resulting damage

http://pentagon.spacelist.org/images/arielshot-after.jpg

This isn't rocket science folks.

[05caddyext]

Where are the pieces of the plane? Why aren't there holes in the building where the wings would have entered it. There are photos showing that there aren't even broken windows where the wings should have it, much less any damage from them.

[Yooformula]

alot of good info and aircraft debris pics from the pentagon. it would make sense that the govt would prevent most photos and videos from being made public due to the sensitive material in those buildings.

http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm

http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/pentagon-email_20020316.html

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911_pentagon_eyewitnesses.html

[Prince Valiant]

Where are the pieces of the plane?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Flight_77_wreckage_at_Pentagon.jpg

looks like a whollotta pieces to me.

[Goat Roper]

Where are the pieces of the plane? Why aren't there holes in the building where the wings would have entered it. There are photos showing that there aren't even broken windows where the wings should have it, much less any damage from them.

You mean these windows?

http://pentagon.spacelist.org/images/window.jpg

Completely blast resistant. Even if your missle theory was true, they would still be there. They do not run to Pella when they put windows in the Pentagon.

The Pentagon has a web of giant steel columns on the outside, wings would never in a millions year get through that. The blunt for of a jetliner though can punch a hole but nothing more, hence the pretty hole. Imagine a bullet proof vest. Will stop a bullet but you can shove a pin through it. Same program, you get something small enough with enough force behind it, it will break the fibers of the shield.

As far as pieces of the plane, most would have got sucked right into the hole that just punched into the building. Pure physics. The wings would have not clipped off, this isn't a cartoon. They would have been folded back and gone right in with most of the rest of the plane. All that would have blown out were some small pieces, which, amazingly, is just what happened.

Some of the pieces found; http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2141/debris2.jpg

http://www.uphaa.com/uploads/26/911-flight77-debris.jpg

There was damage to the outside wall of the Pentagon. The outer facia was smashed and parts of the wing tips found on either side. And notice I said "fascia", not the entire wall smashed in.

Does it help that people actually SAW the thing fly into the building?

[07ROUSHSTG3]

I thought this was going to turn into a shit storm, but it's actually quite a civilized discussion. Good job everyone.



was thinking the same thing. i have found a lot of info very interesting in this thread.

[Yooformula]

one of the links I posted has pictures of a landing gear, wheel, tire tearaways and what appeared to be turbine parts.

http://www.rense.com/general32/aedrive6.jpg
http://www.rense.com/general32/landinggear002.jpg
http://www.rense.com/general32/pentagonplanetire.jpg
http://www.rense.com/general32/Damage9.jpg

[Goat Roper]

was thinking the same thing. i have found a lot of info very interesting in this thread.

And how people continue to question this, even after finding all this readily avilable info, is beyond me. If it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, just because you haven't seen it fly like a duck doesn't mean that it is not a duck.

[07ROUSHSTG3]

And how people continue to question this, even after finding all this readily avilable info, is beyond me. If it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, just because you haven't seen it fly like a duck doesn't mean that it is not a duck.

some people will never accept what is right in front of them. like myles said, he likes controversy, and he is not alone. some people need to always be "thinking".

i did not know anyone who died on that day and I get upset when people question what happened. I cannot imagine what the family members and friends of the almost 3000 people feel like when they hear the theorists. makes me sad.

never forget.

[Goat Roper]

never forget.

word

[Yooformula]

I cannot imagine what the family members and friends of the almost 3000 people feel like when they hear the theorists. makes me sad.

it pisses them off! A friend of mine died that day, 2 of my cousins were in the towers the day of and my best friend was working in the same area.

[07ROUSHSTG3]

it pisses them off! A friend of mine died that day, 2 of my cousins were in the towers the day of and my best friend was working in the same area.

very sorry to hear that Yoo.

[05caddyext]

It doesn't piss them all off. They have just as many questions as we do.

[Prince Valiant]

They have just as many questions as we do.#1 in most their minds is "what's with all these crackpot truthers?"

[MoCkiN U]

watch the show you'll see exactly what hundreds of people felt like on that day.

[Lash]

It doesn't piss them all off. They have just as many questions as we do.


Who is this guy? :rolleyes:

[badass88gt]

I do remember there was a dude on Corral who worked very near (maybe at?) the Pentagon, he saw the plane with his own eyes immediately before the impact. He said something about it coming in crooked, I dont remember if he said a wing actually hit or almost hit the highway because of the cockeyed way they flew in.


How anyone can question the validity of 9/11 is beyond me.

[Reverend Cooper]

I question why it ever happened in the first place. to many things happened previously that allowed it to happen. Thanks Bill.

[-stew-]

Exellent point, Mr. Cooper.

[Lash]

I question why it ever happened in the first place. to many things happened previously that allowed it to happen. Thanks Bill.

Werd!

[TheRX7Project]

I question why it ever happened in the first place. to many things happened previously that allowed it to happen. Thanks Bill.

Because we as a country are too afraid to flex our muscles and take out who needs to be taken out BEFORE they become a major problem. We knew about Bin Laden and Al Q'aida long before 9/11.

[Myles]

Because we as a country are too afraid to flex our muscles and take out who needs to be taken out BEFORE they become a major problem. We knew about Bin Laden and Al Q'aida long before 9/11.

No shit, We put them into power.

[British_Ben]

How anyone can question the validity of 9/11 is beyond me.

Are you saying that you don't have one question about 9/11? Not one?


I question why it ever happened in the first place. to many things happened previously that allowed it to happen. Thanks Bill.

VALID point!


No shit, We put them into power.

We sure did, but most people seem to conveniently ignore that.

--

It's really interesting to see the Pentagon pictures that some of you guys posted and I'm not afraid to admit that you have made a convincing argument. I had never seen the debris pictures from the Pentagon before, and I fear that the truth movement has conveniently ignored them. I'm open to fact, and fact alone. Fact: The FBI is withholding hundreds of tapes that show the plane flying to and/or impacting the pentagon. WHY?

On the other hand, where would all that debris come from if a plane didn't hit the Pentagon?

Truthers are searching for the truth, not conspiracies.

Fact: The twin towers and WTC building 7 collapsed in the path of most resistance in about 10 seconds, which is close to free fall speed. WHY? Almost 1000 professional architects and engineers would also like to know: http://www.ae911truth.org/signpetition.php

Are there 1000 architects and engineers that agree with the 9/11 commission reports' account of the towers and WTC 7 collapsing? I'm honestly asking, because I'd like to know what they have to say.

I'm looking for answers, that's all. I'm not looking to be a "deep" thinking conspiracy theorist.

[Crawlin]

We sure did, but most people seem to conveniently ignore that.


I have a book called "Lies My Teacher Told Me" and in it they go through all the convenient facts of our past. Or I should say, what history books leave out. It was actually quite an interesting read for my english class. Some of it is really boring, but may be of interest to some.

But they do talk about the war and 9/11 just a tiny bit. But mostly how we've helped get other people elected and then when we don't like their policy, we influence others in helping take them down.

[Myles]

I am going to have to get that book. Sounds like a interesting read.

[Crawlin]

I have it Myles. You can read it.

ALOT of it is about our misconceptions of certain people. Like Hellen Keller and her rise from being blind/deaf and her fight for women's rights. We forget taht she was a HUGE socialist. Then Woodrow Wilson, how he is considered a great President, when he was hugely racist and segregated the federal government in some areas.

Alot of it has to do with Thanksgiving and Christopher Columbus and our misconceptions about "him finding North/South America". Also how the Pilgrims didnt' teach the native americans shit and if it wasn't for them, the pilgrims wouldnt have made it through the first winter.

Not till the later chapters does it dive into the more recent stuff like history classes and how they teach things recent like the vietnam way. But mostly, its the older stuff they talk about.

[Myles]

I already have it downloaded, going to page through it at lunch.

[Yooformula]

No shit, We put them into power.

that includes osama bin laden btw! we trained him, supplied him weapons, money and special forces assistance when he was leading the mujaheddin years ago in their war against the then USSR. interesting how the sentiment changed against him when the USSR collapsed, he was now seen as an enemy in which pressure was put on his family to disown him and cut off his personal funds when he wouldnt submit to the US. This is of course AFTER he tried to cash in promises that were made to him by the US. Religion isnt the reason why he hates the US, its just the "battle cry" he uses.

[Myles]

that includes osama bin laden btw! we trained him, supplied him weapons, money and special forces assistance when he was leading the mujaheddin years ago in their war against the then USSR. interesting how the sentiment changed against him when the USSR collapsed, he was now seen as an enemy in which pressure was put on his family to disown him and cut off his personal funds when he wouldnt submit to the US. This is of course AFTER he tried to cash in promises that were made to him by the US. Religion isnt the reason why he hates the US, its just the "battle cry" he uses.

Notice how I said THEM? It meant Al Queda AND Bin Laden.


Dumbass.

[Goat Roper]

that includes osama bin laden btw! we trained him, supplied him weapons, money and special forces assistance when he was leading the mujaheddin years ago in their war against the then USSR. interesting how the sentiment changed against him when the USSR collapsed, he was now seen as an enemy in which pressure was put on his family to disown him and cut off his personal funds when he wouldnt submit to the US. This is of course AFTER he tried to cash in promises that were made to him by the US. Religion isnt the reason why he hates the US, its just the "battle cry" he uses.

Not to mention we propped up Saddam as well.

[Prince Valiant]

Not to mention we propped up Saddam as well.Against Iran. Saddam didn't need any "propping" either to rise to power or against his own people.

[Yooformula]

Notice how I said THEM? It meant Al Queda AND Bin Laden.


Dumbass.

I swear I am going to beat the ever nasty shit out of you one day Myles then make you eat it all up again you fuck!



















:thumbsup

[Myles]

I swear I am going to beat the ever nasty shit out of you one day Myles then make you eat it all up again you fuck!

Gotta get violent right away when I point out your stupidity. It's ok Yoo, one day you will learn to count past 10 :goof

[Goat Roper]

Against Iran. Saddam didn't need any "propping" either to rise to power or against his own people.

Agreed, he was propped up to fight Iran and was already in power and while not directly the same as the propping up of Bin Laden, propping is still propping. Both were at arm's length allies turned to enemies.

I don't believe I used the word "prop" enough in that sentence :rolf

[05caddyext]

Who am I? I am a concerned citizen thats all. There are plenty of families that question what happened that day, do some research.

[Goat Roper]

Who am I? I am a concerned citizen thats all. There are plenty of families that question what happened that day, do some research.

It is fine to question, but you are not welcome to your own facts when faced with reality. You still have yet to reply to all of the info on page 5 of this thread regarding the Pentagon.

[Turbo-Triumph]

You mean these windows?

http://pentagon.spacelist.org/images/window.jpg

Completely blast resistant. Even if your missle theory was true, they would still be there. They do not run to Pella when they put windows in the Pentagon.

The Pentagon has a web of giant steel columns on the outside, wings would never in a millions year get through that. The blunt for of a jetliner though can punch a hole but nothing more, hence the pretty hole. Imagine a bullet proof vest. Will stop a bullet but you can shove a pin through it. Same program, you get something small enough with enough force behind it, it will break the fibers of the shield.

As far as pieces of the plane, most would have got sucked right into the hole that just punched into the building. Pure physics. The wings would have not clipped off, this isn't a cartoon. They would have been folded back and gone right in with most of the rest of the plane. All that would have blown out were some small pieces, which, amazingly, is just what happened.

Some of the pieces found; http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2141/debris2.jpg

http://www.uphaa.com/uploads/26/911-flight77-debris.jpg

There was damage to the outside wall of the Pentagon. The outer facia was smashed and parts of the wing tips found on either side. And notice I said "fascia", not the entire wall smashed in.

Does it help that people actually SAW the thing fly into the building?

Why didnt the gas from the airplane spew all over, and melt the steel web frame?

Why do none of the peices laying all over the grass, which were supposedly blown from the structure, not look burned, but almost freshly painted?

Why was the brick not damaged by the planes wings? Not even huge chunks of airplane could bust a 'blastproof' peice of glass?

And please tell me how the wings would not sheer off and bust into a million peices.. they planes made out of mostly aluminum, correct?

"According to a movie i saw" The airline companys by a new law, can no longer give out any information regaurding the construction of airplanes.

Why would the FBI confinscate video from other people? they did not do this on other accounts (nyc)

Lots of questions

I dont believe the US govornment is entirely at fault, nor do i believe a lot of people knew prior to the attack. Just a lot of coincidences, inconsistancys and questions.

Moon landing, anyone?

[lordairgtar]

I have it Myles. You can read it.

ALOT of it is about our misconceptions of certain people. Like Hellen Keller and her rise from being blind/deaf and her fight for women's rights. We forget taht she was a HUGE socialist.
Socialist? Try Communist! Since she wound up on that state Quarter, I was not happy. We were fed that pablum about her life and that was conveniently left out. As far as that book, yes, a lot of stuff was taught with a spin to make us look good. But since we do not have a time machine, we cannot go back in time and change things or make it right. I think the authors of this book have an agenda, and that is everything about the US is wrong.

[Sprayaway Fox]

I just cant believe this was worse than pearl harbor and we didnt even fuck them up. Too much Red tape to kick ass.

[Myles]

What I love about shit like that is it shows how we are not perfect. How we as a country are flawed just like every other country out there right now and before us.

Conspiracies are in everyones mind, people find them entertaining, scary, intriguing and what not. If you choose to believe them or not is your thing. There is alot of history that is covered up and made to look good. I like finding the shit that tells a different tale.

Ever read on the older governments and how they hid shit from the people and had secret agendas? You think that shit was fake or that it no longer happens? I feel bad for you if that is the case. Some people strive for knowledge even if there is nothing at the end of the road. They will eventually accept it and move on to a different subject to investigate.

The rumors and stories of a NWO and the people working in the background is a fascinating one. They have real life people who we all know, doing things in secret to accomplish their own agendas. People have tried to do it by force in the past, maybe now they are trying to do it subtly via the economy and other non violent acts.

Believe what you want, research what you want, but don't go off by what you see in pictures as definitive proof. This is aimed at both sides of the camp. Research, request documents and talk to people who have first hand knowledge of it and come to your own conclusions.

[Crawlin]

Socialist? Try Communist! Since she wound up on that state Quarter, I was not happy. We were fed that pablum about her life and that was conveniently left out. As far as that book, yes, a lot of stuff was taught with a spin to make us look good. But since we do not have a time machine, we cannot go back in time and change things or make it right. I think the authors of this book have an agenda, and that is everything about the US is wrong.

His book lists her as a socialist and a definite supporter of the USSR or whatever. He is HEAVILY democratic in his writings. His stance on the class system is incredibly stupid. I actually had to write a 5 page paper on the book(i actually had to write multiple papers on the book, but this one is more relevant) and the paper was about my opinions of one of the topics. His whole thought process was that the poor are always held down in schools and never allowed to go up more than "one level of social class". It's all bullshit cause it just goes to show how coddling the poor does nothing. Those that want to get out will by working hard.

[Crawlin]

The rumors and stories of a NWO and the people working in the background is a fascinating one. They have real life people who we all know, doing things in secret to accomplish their own agendas. People have tried to do it by force in the past, maybe now they are trying to do it subtly via the economy and other non violent acts.

Now you are just spouting off the story line from Batman Begins.... come on now, hahaha

:devil

[Myles]

Now you are just spouting off the story line from Batman Begins.... come on now, hahaha

:devil

Its the theme to many stories Chris, like the one I'm writing for instance. It is a very interesting subject.

[Goat Roper]

Why didnt the gas from the airplane spew all over, and melt the steel web frame?

It did in parts, the front did not collapse until after the fire had burnt for some time. Also, the Pentagon is built like a brick shithouse, a hell of a lot sturdier than than the steel frame of a building 90 floors up.


Why do none of the pieces laying all over the grass, which were supposedly blown from the structure, not look burned, but almost freshly painted?

Simple physics. Take a very fast moving pointy object and blow it through a series of walls. There will be a vacuum created as the mass blows through the walls taking damn near everything with it. The outside of the airplane, the skin, is very thin. As the plane inserted itself into the hole it was creating through the Pentagon areas that skin would be making contact the edges of that hole. Pieces that sheared upward were blown out by the resulting explosion. Pieces sheared inward would have been taken in by the vacuum. Are you saying that someone went around sprinkling plane parts around the lawn? Without anybody noticing this? Go find a thin piece of plywood and punch a hole through it with your fist. Chances are there will be skin you left behind on the outside of the hole. You hit that plywood haard enough with your fist, you skin would go flying off.


Why was the brick not damaged by the planes wings? Not even huge chunks of airplane could bust a 'blastproof' piece of glass?

The brick was damaged. The outside fascia of the first floor in either direction was knocked off and on the right hand side you could see the leading edge of the wings in the concrete. Who said anything about large pieces of airplane hitting the windows? Lets say we did live in bizarro world and your missile theory (or whatever you subscribe to) was true, something huge still exploded at the Pentagon and yet the windows remained. What are you even trying to say about the windows?


And please tell me how the wings would not sheer off and bust into a million pieces.. they planes made out of mostly aluminum, correct?

The wings tips were on either side of the radius. Wings do not just sheer off and blow up into a millions pieces, this isn't a cartoon. They would have, in one violent motion. snapped back against the fuselage and gone in with the rest of it. These wings were not ceramic, metal bends.

Almost any amount of understanding of simple physics of explosions and impacts can stop you from thinking too much about this.


Why would the FBI confinscate video from other people? they did not do this on other accounts (nyc)

No clue, quite frankly don't care. So many people saw the plane flying then running into the building, including someone whom I am one layer away from who is about as straight as they come. Asking questions is fine, but at some point, when all the evidence and eyewitness testimony points to a conclusion, you have to start dealing with reality.

[Prince Valiant]

And here's the thing...not having all the answers (particularly from a car forum) doesn't mean that things didn't happen as they did. I mean, just because a plane hitting a building doesn't do the things you thought it should do, doesn't mean it didn't still hit a building.

I don't know why when I press the send message, my words show up for virtually anyone to read over the internet. But it does.

Also, what's striking is observe some others....they'll ask "Why aren't there pieces of the plane?" and then you show them pics of pieces of the plane all over the place. Does that convince them? Nope.

That's the thing about truthers....like birthers. You can show them what they purportedly want to see to answer their "valid questions", and you know what? It won't placate them. Show a birther Obama's valid Hawaii birth certificate and it'll be called a forgery. Show the pieces of the plane laying around the pentagon, and what do we get? Nada.

But a missile hitting seems the worst way to "stage" an attack...I mean, chances are pretty good that someone would actually see this if it were the case. Even if truthers were right, it seems the easiest way would have been to actually have people fly planes into buildings if this were the case.

And of course, in order to pull this attack off, literally hundreds, if not thousands would be required to take part...where are they? More people in on it, the more they're likely to talk. Why haven't we heard anyone claiming to be in on it (well, anyone but Osama and al qaeda...who, btw, claimed responsibility for it). Truthers take what is a simple plan, that was somewhat easy to pull and make it into the monstrously complex and convoluted plan that if someone put in front of me I'd have to ask "why make it so hard? Why put so many failure points in it?"

I believe the reason truthers hang on to such absurdity is because they develop a messianic complex about their "truth." They, in their mind, become special, different...believing that they see things differently, and more clearly. It makes them different from the masses, and to themselves, better. Look how they speak of not being mislead...NO! follow them! Look how they (ironically) try to convince people not to be like sheep! "Use your mind" is a common utterance that of course implies that the rest of us don't. Truthers don't want to give this up...it's like their baby; no matter how ugly, how stupid, how hated it may be...they won't let go.

[Yooformula]

From what I read, all video and pics from the pentagon were collected to protect the identities of any undercover agents that were assisting in rescues, hide any sensitive data/images of the buildings from being seen by the general public and prying countries not to mention to make sure if any sensitive information had been blown out of teh buildings that there wouldnt be public images of any of it.

[Crawlin]

As for the jet fuel burning the steel frame...

Myles and I were going back and forth looking stuff up. Jet fuel ALONE cannot reach the temps necessary to melt steel. Jet fuel as igniter in a possible chemical type fire has a greater chance. The flash and the heat spikes of those fires are more than enough.

[Myles]

It also depends on the type of fire, the fireproofing done, how long the fire burned for how long, what materials were there to fuel the fire to the higher temps, how long did they last.

[MurphysLaw88GT]

What I love about shit like that is it shows how we are not perfect. How we as a country are flawed just like every other country out there right now and before us.

Conspiracies are in everyones mind, people find them entertaining, scary, intriguing and what not. If you choose to believe them or not is your thing. There is alot of history that is covered up and made to look good. I like finding the shit that tells a different tale.

Ever read on the older governments and how they hid shit from the people and had secret agendas? You think that shit was fake or that it no longer happens? I feel bad for you if that is the case. Some people strive for knowledge even if there is nothing at the end of the road. They will eventually accept it and move on to a different subject to investigate.

The rumors and stories of a NWO and the people working in the background is a fascinating one. They have real life people who we all know, doing things in secret to accomplish their own agendas. People have tried to do it by force in the past, maybe now they are trying to do it subtly via the economy and other non violent acts.

Believe what you want, research what you want, but don't go off by what you see in pictures as definitive proof. This is aimed at both sides of the camp. Research, request documents and talk to people who have first hand knowledge of it and come to your own conclusions.

I thought this was well worded and shit.

[Myles]

I thought this was well worded and shit.

I take it you have a problem with my excessive use of profanity?

[Prince Valiant]

The rumors and stories of a NWO and the people working in the background is a fascinating one. They have real life people who we all know, doing things in secret to accomplish their own agendas. People have tried to do it by force in the past, maybe now they are trying to do it subtly via the economy and other non violent acts. Working in the background? Try "working out in plain view;" particularly the enviromental/global warming crowd.

The problem with fake conspiracies is that it allows people to overlook the real ones.

[Myles]

Working in the background? Try "working out in plain view;" particularly the enviromental/global warming crowd.

The problem with fake conspiracies is that it allows people to overlook the real ones.

Chris, you know what I meant. For instance the enviromental to the public is to make everything healthy and green and blah blah blah, but the real agenda is not up front even though it is known.

[British_Ben]

Working in the background? Try "working out in plain view;" particularly the enviromental/global warming crowd.

The problem with fake conspiracies is that it allows people to overlook the real ones.

Ohhh, I see, so when the Vice Chairman of the (now closed) 9/11 commission is talking about 9/11, he's telling the truth. But when he's talking about global warming, he's part of a "hidden-in-plain-sight" conspiracy.

Silly me.

http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/911/about/bio_hamilton.htm

http://www.goalsforamericans.org/2005/06/09/looking-ahead-by-the-hon-lee-h-hamilton-with-introduction/

[Prince Valiant]

.

Silly me.


Silly because the things conspiracist fear, such as gov't infringing on every aspect of life is moving forward in plain view through the global warming, and any number of other ill-liberal causes.

I'm not accusing those pushing global warming as willfully lying...I believe they are scincere, but ultimately misguided in how they propose to deal with it.

However, since the fears of the 9/11 conspiracist was that this was part of a power grab to create a new-world order, why don't they focus their efforts on the real power grab to force a new world order?

I think it's ridiculous those that believe in things like "pentabulates", the illuminati, free-mason, crap.

But if that vice chairman tells me 9/11 was planned and carried out by 19 terrorist trained by al-qaeda, then damn right he's being I htink he's being honest. Simple observation of the facts proves this. He tells me global warming is all man made and the only way to combat it is to reduce man's co2 output by draconian measures and send trillions of dollars to foreign countries under the guise of investing in technologies for them, with a new, unelectable world governing body to monitor said co2 emissions, then I'll disagree with him vociferously.

Maybe it's simply silly of you to think because I may agree with an individual about one thing, I therefore then have to agree with him on everything :rolleyes:

[British_Ben]

Silly because the things conspiracist fear, such as gov't infringing on every aspect of life is moving forward in plain view through the global warming, and any number of other ill-liberal causes.

Uhm, no. The ultimate goal of the global warming "scare" is a carbon tax.


I'm not accusing those pushing global warming as willfully lying...I believe they are scincere, but ultimately misguided in how they propose to deal with it.

Oh, so now they are misinformed about global warming, but well informed about 9/11, I see.


However, since the fears of the 9/11 conspiracist was that this was part of a power grab to create a new-world order, why don't they focus their efforts on the real power grab to force a new world order?

I'm not sure? OH WAIT! They introduced the patriot act which took away several of your civil liberties. They can jail you for 30 days on no charges without visitation, a lawyer, or even a phone call and tap your phone line without a warrant. Awesome.


I think it's ridiculous those that believe in things like "pentabulates", the illuminati, free-mason, crap.

Sigh... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian_Grove


But if that vice chairman tells me 9/11 was planned and carried out by 19 terrorist trained by al-qaeda, then damn right he's being I htink he's being honest. Simple observation of the facts proves this. He tells me global warming is all man made and the only way to combat it is to reduce man's co2 output by draconian measures and send trillions of dollars to foreign countries under the guise of investing in technologies for them, with a new, unelectable world governing body to monitor said co2 emissions, then I'll disagree with him vociferously.

Simple observation of the "facts" will tell you that global warming is (to quote you) "all man made and the only way to combat it is to reduce man's co2 output by draconian measures and send trillions of dollars to foreign countries under the guise of investing in technologies for them, with a new, unelectable world governing body to monitor said co2 emissions". Unless you dig a little deeper and find out that the sun is simply getting warmer, had a record number of sun spots in our history, and that scientists believe that this has happened before, raising earths average temperature beyond what it is today.


Maybe it's simply silly of you to think because I may agree with an individual about one thing, I therefore then have to agree with him on everything :rolleyes:

My point wasn't that you agree with him on 9/11 and then disagree with global warming and it's causes. My point was that you trust him when it comes to 9/11 and then do not trust him when it comes to global warming and it's causes. Perhaps I assume too much, or perhaps you are simply avoiding the issue.