I sure hope this doesnt have to happen

[Reverend Cooper]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30353861/?GT1=43001


not gonna help the economy at all

[Holeshot]

It has to happen. Its the beginning of the restructuring / chapter 11 process. The only way for any of them to come out ahead and survive is to break the ties with the UAW.

[GTSLOW]

So UAW is going away? :thumbsup

[xFullThrottlex]

So UAW is going away? :thumbsup


lets hope

[CATNHAT]

And I think Chrysler is going to go away also. Unless he UAW makes concessions, no deal with Fiat.

UAW=WTF?

[That_Guy]

lets hope
no kidding the greedy legacy cost are killing whats left of the American auto industry

[07ROUSHSTG3]

let them all sit in a soup line if they are not willing to sacrifice like the rest of the world is right now.

[wrath]

If the UAW goes I hope all the unions go. That way we can have $7/hr secretaries, $12 tinsmiths, $12 plumbers, $12 electricians, et cetera. And I can be that much richer.

If someone that assembles cars isn't worth $30/hr then neither are any of these other union fields. None of the above people have skills that are worth any more than UAW jobs. If they did, amateurs (do it yourself-ers) wouldn't be allowed to do any of it. Going by the fact that uneducated union tinsmiths around here make the same amount of money as I do and I've been to college and my job keeps the lights on in Wisconsin... those tinsmiths jobs should be paid NOTHING in comparison to my job. And I'm not special, other people can do my job just fine. It's just a baboon bending 18 gauge steel doesn't know anything the orangutan does that keeps the lights on.

Hell, compared to my job, the manager at Buffalo Wild Wings should be paying whoever has my job for the privilege of working there.

Normally I'm a union supporter (it's people that make unions bad). However, if the UAW needs to go then ALL unions need to go. They don't do me a damn bit of good. So since we're all about our "own personal economy" nowadays, if you want the UAW to go, get rid of them all. Fsck our fellow man, it's all about me me me me.


Does that put things in perspective?

[07ROUSHSTG3]

If the UAW goes I hope all the unions go.

me too.

[Exitspeed]

Yeah it has to happen.

[TheRX7Project]

If the UAW goes I hope all the unions go. That way we can have $7/hr secretaries, $12 tinsmiths, $12 plumbers, $12 electricians, et cetera. And I can be that much richer.

If someone that assembles cars isn't worth $30/hr then neither are any of these other union fields. None of the above people have skills that are worth any more than UAW jobs. If they did, amateurs (do it yourself-ers) wouldn't be allowed to do any of it. Going by the fact that uneducated union tinsmiths around here make the same amount of money as I do and I've been to college and my job keeps the lights on in Wisconsin... those tinsmiths jobs should be paid NOTHING in comparison to my job. And I'm not special, other people can do my job just fine. It's just a baboon bending 18 gauge steel doesn't know anything the orangutan does that keeps the lights on.

Hell, compared to my job, the manager at Buffalo Wild Wings should be paying whoever has my job for the privilege of working there.

Normally I'm a union supporter (it's people that make unions bad). However, if the UAW needs to go then ALL unions need to go. They don't do me a damn bit of good. So since we're all about our "own personal economy" nowadays, if you want the UAW to go, get rid of them all. Fsck our fellow man, it's all about me me me me.


Does that put things in perspective?

Problem is, in your sarcasm, you're spot on. People in ENTRY LEVEL positions should be getting entry level pay. There's no reason a baboon watching a robot put on lugnuts should make over $30k/yr.

[Irish]

If the UAW goes I hope all the unions go. That way we can have $7/hr secretaries, $12 tinsmiths, $12 plumbers, $12 electricians, et cetera. And I can be that much richer.

If someone that assembles cars isn't worth $30/hr then neither are any of these other union fields. None of the above people have skills that are worth any more than UAW jobs. If they did, amateurs (do it yourself-ers) wouldn't be allowed to do any of it. Going by the fact that uneducated union tinsmiths around here make the same amount of money as I do and I've been to college and my job keeps the lights on in Wisconsin... those tinsmiths jobs should be paid NOTHING in comparison to my job. And I'm not special, other people can do my job just fine. It's just a baboon bending 18 gauge steel doesn't know anything the orangutan does that keeps the lights on.

Hell, compared to my job, the manager at Buffalo Wild Wings should be paying whoever has my job for the privilege of working there.

Normally I'm a union supporter (it's people that make unions bad). However, if the UAW needs to go then ALL unions need to go. They don't do me a damn bit of good. So since we're all about our "own personal economy" nowadays, if you want the UAW to go, get rid of them all. Fsck our fellow man, it's all about me me me me.


Does that put things in perspective?

LOL!:rolf I think Unions are out dated. I can stick up for myself just fine. I will keep my "club fees" for myself.

[Plum Crazy]

as a current laid off UAW employee, i agree for the most part with you guys, the unions protect the lazy, so while i was a productive employee, the older, lazier guys are still there, doing jack shit while i cant find a job.

[07ROUSHSTG3]

as a current laid off UAW employee, i agree for the most part with you guys, the unions protect the lazy, so while i was a productive employee, the older, lazier guys are still there, doing jack shit while i cant find a job.

exactly.

[wrath]

Problem is, in your sarcasm, you're spot on. People in ENTRY LEVEL positions should be getting entry level pay. There's no reason a baboon watching a robot put on lugnuts should make over $30k/yr.

It wasn't sarcasm.

The baboon putting the lugnuts on actually uses a special machine that torques them all evenly at the same time. It's not an easy job, I've done it before. If a robot could do it, there wouldn't be a person there doing it. If they could make a robot to do anything that humans do on an assembly line it has already been done.


If we aren't going to pay the UAW living wages then why should anyone get paid living wages that haven't got shit for skills?

With the advent of PEX, plumbers are essentially no longer needed. You no longer need to know how to sweat pipes and there is no "fine art" to PEX.

An electrician only needs a 1 page cheat-sheet and they have 98% of everything they need to know.

A carpenter only needs to know that if you cut something three times it's still going to end up being too short.

What the hell do we need a tinsmith for at union wages? We all learned how to build paper airplanes by third grade.


In the end, my point is, in today's society two people making $12/hr are going to have a hell of a time making a living or let alone raising a family. And one solution for that is to reduce EVERY PERSON'S WAGE so it drives down the cost of everything.

[Irish]

In the end, my point is, in today's society two people making $12/hr are going to have a hell of a time making a living or let alone raising a family. And one solution for that is to reduce EVERY PERSON'S WAGE so it drives down the cost of everything.

MOTHERFUCKING WORD! I would be happy making $12 an hour if everything would go back to what things cost back in the 1980's.

[subliminal1284]

Hell id be happy to make $12 an hour even without things going back down.

[Rocket Power]

The only union job I had paid $5/hr. Thank god the union was there:rolleyes:
I prefer to sink or swim on my own without having to have a bunch of brainwashed people who only knows what the newsletter says to do, vote for my future. Those people who cut their own necks just to not give anything to "the man". ie. would I rather not get a raise for a year or not have a job. Sometime the realities of business are that compromises need to be made or you will be home all day watching Oprah

[Holeshot]

It wasn't sarcasm.

The baboon putting the lugnuts on actually uses a special machine that torques them all evenly at the same time. It's not an easy job, I've done it before. If a robot could do it, there wouldn't be a person there doing it. If they could make a robot to do anything that humans do on an assembly line it has already been done.


If we aren't going to pay the UAW living wages then why should anyone get paid living wages that haven't got shit for skills?

With the advent of PEX, plumbers are essentially no longer needed. You no longer need to know how to sweat pipes and there is no "fine art" to PEX.

An electrician only needs a 1 page cheat-sheet and they have 98% of everything they need to know.

A carpenter only needs to know that if you cut something three times it's still going to end up being too short.

What the hell do we need a tinsmith for at union wages? We all learned how to build paper airplanes by third grade.


In the end, my point is, in today's society two people making $12/hr are going to have a hell of a time making a living or let alone raising a family. And one solution for that is to reduce EVERY PERSON'S WAGE so it drives down the cost of everything.

I understand where your coming form and why. Just so I don't post wrong info, can you tell me what the average wage including all benefits are for the average UAW member? IIRC It was stated on the news that 4K from every car built goes to UAW retirement / health fund. So is it fare to assume that total wage with benefits might fall in to the $50/$60 per hr range?

I think all employees need protection and representation but I think All Unions have taken it too far. I have been in a few different unions and non of them really did much for me. So I am not just ranting as non knowing .

[That_Guy]

It wasn't sarcasm.

The baboon putting the lugnuts on actually uses a special machine that torques them all evenly at the same time. It's not an easy job, I've done it before. If a robot could do it, there wouldn't be a person there doing it. If they could make a robot to do anything that humans do on an assembly line it has already been done.


If we aren't going to pay the UAW living wages then why should anyone get paid living wages that haven't got shit for skills?

With the advent of PEX, plumbers are essentially no longer needed. You no longer need to know how to sweat pipes and there is no "fine art" to PEX.

An electrician only needs a 1 page cheat-sheet and they have 98% of everything they need to know.

A carpenter only needs to know that if you cut something three times it's still going to end up being too short.

What the hell do we need a tinsmith for at union wages? We all learned how to build paper airplanes by third grade.


In the end, my point is, in today's society two people making $12/hr are going to have a hell of a time making a living or let alone raising a family. And one solution for that is to reduce EVERY PERSON'S WAGE so it drives down the cost of everything.

im not sure where your getting your facts from by my uncle and grandfather are plumbing contractors and they make 40k a year and own there own small business both are in the union. they are not exactly making out like bandits. i think 40k is pretty fair for somebody who has to deal with other peoples waste issues.

[Irish]

im not sure where your getting your facts from by my uncle and grandfather are plumbing contractors and they make 40k a year and own there own small business both are in the union. they are not exactly making out like bandits. i think 40k is pretty fair for somebody who has to deal with other peoples waste issues.

Their choice. Since it's their own business, again their choice. I would settle for 40k a year for a little while to be my own boss.

[That_Guy]

Their choice. Since it's their own business, again their choice. I would settle for 40k a year for a little while to be my own boss.

i agree i just think that he just generalized things into one lump sum when its not really the case. honestly there is a huge difference between the plumbers union and the uaw..

[PureSound15]

im not sure where your getting your facts from by my uncle and grandfather are plumbing contractors and they make 40k a year and own there own small business both are in the union. they are not exactly making out like bandits. i think 40k is pretty fair for somebody who has to deal with other peoples waste issues.

For FUCK's sake -

What's the difference between their, there, and they're? They're really not that complicated; once you understand their differences there shouldn't be any more confusion.


Their

Their is the third person plural possessive adjective, used to describe something as belong to them. Their is nearly always followed by a noun.

Where is their car?

Are these their pens?

Their books are on the table.

This is their room and this is ours.

What happened to their dog?

Their being here is causing some problems.


There

There has several different uses.

1. Adverb that means the opposite of "here"

He's over there.

Stop right there.

Do you want to sit here or there?

2. Pronoun that introduces a noun or clause.

There is something strange going on.

Is there a phone?

3. Adjective that emphasizes which person.

That guy there seems to be in trouble.

Those there look good.

4. Noun that means "that place."

From there, we drove to Boston.

I'm not going in there!


They're

They're is the contraction of "they are" and is often followed by the present participle (verb form ending in -ing).

They're going to be late.

Is that what they're saying?

I think they're lying.

If they're ready, we can go.

I can't believe they're not here yet!

When they're older, they'll understand.


The Bottom Line

The confusion between their, there, and they're occurs because the three words are pronounced in very similar ways.

If the word means "belonging to them," use their. If you're able to replace the word with "they are," use they're. Otherwise, there is only one correct answer: there.



Anyway - I'm not sure what you're point is trying to show that your uncles make 40k a year? 40K is liveable by any means. - That being said, I really just wanted to make fun of your writing habits.

[wrath]

I understand where your coming form and why. Just so I don't post wrong info, can you tell me what the average wage including all benefits are for the average UAW member? IIRC It was stated on the news that 4K from every car built goes to UAW retirement / health fund. So is it fare to assume that total wage with benefits might fall in to the $50/$60 per hr range?

I think all employees need protection and representation but I think All Unions have taken it too far. I have been in a few different unions and non of them really did much for me. So I am not just ranting as non knowing .

They make $29.something/hr for the old guys. It's $14.something/hr for the youngin's. The old guys get a pension out of the deal as well as medical benefits. The pension is ~$1400/month with another ~$1700/month cost of living until they are eligible for social security. Once they reach social security age (for most, 62.5) they get $1400/month and social obscurity. The young guys get pretty much nothing.

Their medical benefits, I don't know. I know their medical benefits while REALLY GOOD compared to a fast food place isn't as good as when I worked at a University or where I work now. I know GM gets gouged by everyone for healthcare because when I was still under my Dad's healthcare with BCBS (blue cross/blue shield) the dentist charge 80% more than when I was with the university's healthcare with BCBS.

As far as how much it really costs to employ that GM worker, I'm not sure. I think a lot of it is bloated overhead. If it costs $20/hr for healthcare for a GM employee that means that employee costs the company $40,000/year for healthcare. As a private citizen you can buy pretty bling healthcare for $7200/year. The healthcare I have costs the company and I about $4,000/year. When I worked at a university it cost the two of us around $4800/year but it was awesome healthcare (it cost me nothing to go to the eye doctor or the dentist).


Unions are really good at holding down the good worker and raising up the bad worker. It's the reason why unions suck so much. People make them bad. They have to protect even the shittiest worker. People don't like unions because they think they're better than their fellow man and their fellow man is just going to drag them down. However, times like these, when everyone's life sucks unions start looking pretty good. "Even though I don't like Bob and all he does is sit on his ass all day, we're both hurting pretty bad right now... maybe we should join up collectively". An employer's sole goal is to pay you the least amount they have to in order to get a job done.


im not sure where your getting your facts from by my uncle and grandfather are plumbing contractors and they make 40k a year and own there own small business both are in the union. they are not exactly making out like bandits. i think 40k is pretty fair for somebody who has to deal with other peoples waste issues.

I just did a quick search and found this from 2003:
http://www.scfl.org/?ulnid=255

I bet if you were to log in to:
http://www.plumbers75.com/union_benefits.htm

or one of the people were to say how much they make it's more than $20/hr ($40k/year).

Heck, IIRC, there are some posts on this very forum about how much union tradespeople here make.

[That_Guy]

For FUCK's sake -

What's the difference between their, there, and they're? They're really not that complicated; once you understand their differences there shouldn't be any more confusion.


Their

Their is the third person plural possessive adjective, used to describe something as belong to them. Their is nearly always followed by a noun.

Where is their car?

Are these their pens?

Their books are on the table.

This is their room and this is ours.

What happened to their dog?

Their being here is causing some problems.


There

There has several different uses.

1. Adverb that means the opposite of "here"

He's over there.

Stop right there.

Do you want to sit here or there?

2. Pronoun that introduces a noun or clause.

There is something strange going on.

Is there a phone?

3. Adjective that emphasizes which person.

That guy there seems to be in trouble.

Those there look good.

4. Noun that means "that place."

From there, we drove to Boston.

I'm not going in there!


They're

They're is the contraction of "they are" and is often followed by the present participle (verb form ending in -ing).

They're going to be late.

Is that what they're saying?

I think they're lying.

If they're ready, we can go.

I can't believe they're not here yet!

When they're older, they'll understand.


The Bottom Line

The confusion between their, there, and they're occurs because the three words are pronounced in very similar ways.

If the word means "belonging to them," use their. If you're able to replace the word with "they are," use they're. Otherwise, there is only one correct answer: there.



Anyway - I'm not sure what you're point is trying to show that your uncles make 40k a year? 40K is livable by any means. - That being said, I really just wanted to make fun of your writing habits.

Thank you for taking the time out of your day to give me a proper English lesson. I'll take this post into consideration. :asshole

[Irish]

Thank you for taking the time out of your day to give me a proper English lesson. I'll take this post into consideration.

You seriously should.:shades

[Holeshot]

They make $29.something/hr for the old guys. It's $14.something/hr for the youngin's. The old guys get a pension out of the deal as well as medical benefits. The pension is ~$1400/month with another ~$1700/month cost of living until they are eligible for social security. Once they reach social security age (for most, 62.5) they get $1400/month and social obscurity. The young guys get pretty much nothing.

Their medical benefits, I don't know. I know their medical benefits while REALLY GOOD compared to a fast food place isn't as good as when I worked at a University or where I work now. I know GM gets gouged by everyone for healthcare because when I was still under my Dad's healthcare with BCBS (blue cross/blue shield) the dentist charge 80% more than when I was with the university's healthcare with BCBS.

As far as how much it really costs to employ that GM worker, I'm not sure. I think a lot of it is bloated overhead. If it costs $20/hr for healthcare for a GM employee that means that employee costs the company $40,000/year for healthcare. As a private citizen you can buy pretty bling healthcare for $7200/year. The healthcare I have costs the company and I about $4,000/year. When I worked at a university it cost the two of us around $4800/year but it was awesome healthcare (it cost me nothing to go to the eye doctor or the dentist).


Unions are really good at holding down the good worker and raising up the bad worker. It's the reason why unions suck so much. People make them bad. They have to protect even the shittiest worker. People don't like unions because they think they're better than their fellow man and their fellow man is just going to drag them down. However, times like these, when everyone's life sucks unions start looking pretty good. "Even though I don't like Bob and all he does is sit on his ass all day, we're both hurting pretty bad right now... maybe we should join up collectively". An employer's sole goal is to pay you the least amount they have to in order to get a job done.



I just did a quick search and found this from 2003:
http://www.scfl.org/?ulnid=255

I bet if you were to log in to:
http://www.plumbers75.com/union_benefits.htm

or one of the people were to say how much they make it's more than $20/hr ($40k/year).

Heck, IIRC, there are some posts on this very forum about how much union tradespeople here make.

Thanks for the info and not being hostel I appreciate it . :shades

[subliminal1284]

A guy I used to work with worked at the old AMC test facility in Burlington, all he did was drive cars in a circle around a track all day long. He told me a guy he used to work with would drive the car he was supposed to 'test' home and put the rear wheels up on jackstands and depress the gas pedal slightly with a stick and then go inside and watch TV til the end of his shift. :rolf

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

I had several family members/friends who also worked at the Motors, most of them stole, slept and did as little as possible. Probably the reason the Motors is dead and gone. Same from my wifes family members who worked at Allis Chalmers.
I hear things run just like that at GM, Ford and ChryCo with that said plenty of UAW owned companies like Case IH and John Deere are doing fine and the UAW isnt going anywhere.
Atleast mgmn't doesn't have to deal with the robot union.

As far as unions dying, I doubt it. Bechtel might be able to buy power plant tinker toy sets made in china but someone here has to assemble said chineese power plant erector sets, enter the Ironworkers. :thumbsup
Plus Union road and bridge builders, WI is a union stronghold.

I think I'll apply at A.O. Smiths or Louis Allis. :rolf

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

A guy I used to work with worked at the old AMC test facility in Burlington, all he did was drive cars in a circle around a track all day long. He told me a guy he used to work with would drive the car he was supposed to 'test' home and put the rear wheels up on jackstands and depress the gas pedal slightly with a stick and then go inside and watch TV til the end of his shift. :rolf

Was that test track over by the nudist's colony ? Doesn't some Company still test cars over there ?

[Al]

So, how much should the assembly-line-monkeys make?

$12/hour
$16/hour
$22/hour
any other amount?

[DirtyMax]

Bechtel might be able to buy power plant tinker toy sets made in china but someone here has to assemble said chineese power plant erector sets, enter the Ironworkers. :thumbsup


Funny you mention this... My friends who work down there said all that stuff is JUNK! Half of it is already falling apart and going to need to be repaired before they're even completely finished. They don't mind.. it's called job security, LOL.

[Rocket Power]

A guy I used to work with worked at the old AMC test facility in Burlington, all he did was drive cars in a circle around a track all day long. He told me a guy he used to work with would drive the car he was supposed to 'test' home and put the rear wheels up on jackstands and depress the gas pedal slightly with a stick and then go inside and watch TV til the end of his shift. :rolf
When it was still AMC or after?
That's were I work. PM me who the guy is maybe I know him.

[Rocket Power]

Was that test track over by the nudist's colony ? Doesn't some Company still test cars over there ?
Yes we do

[lordairgtar]

A guy I used to work with worked at the old AMC test facility in Burlington, all he did was drive cars in a circle around a track all day long. He told me a guy he used to work with would drive the car he was supposed to 'test' home and put the rear wheels up on jackstands and depress the gas pedal slightly with a stick and then go inside and watch TV til the end of his shift. :rolf
Years ago when I was in an AMC car club, we got to go there and drive the track. Would like to do it again.

[TheRX7Project]

Hell id be happy to make $12 an hour even without things going back down.

Luckily I make just above $12/hr... and also luckily I get overtime.

WRATH sorry I mistook your post for sarcasm. The middle class shrinks smaller and smaller every day. Even myself, making $35-40k/yr am considered in the lower class. What do I do? I drive a powered industrial tugger. Basically it means I drive a 10,000lb machine pulling loads of up to 20,000lbs through a printing plant, while avoiding pedestrians, forklifts, maintanence carts and delivery trikes (not to mention poles and equipment). Is it a very skilled job? No, perhaps not, but it's definately not easy, and to get to my level of skill has taken quite some time.

I feel my wages are ~fair for what I do. I don't have a degree of any kind, nor a relevant certificate, but I do my job and I do it damn well. I'm also glad to know that because I make a little less per hour than I would at a union place, I'll have a job tomorrow, and the next day.

[wrath]

See, I'm all for everyone making living wages as long as they've got a skill and they earn it. $35k is barely making it for SE WI as far as I'm concerned, and it's not fair. I think no-skill jobs like barely customer service, or service industries as a whole, those are the ones that should be paid nothing. There is no skill required other than showing up on time and smiling. If you can't pluck someone off the street and train them to do 95% of the work in an hour, then it's a decent job. If your job requires you to do something well and on time or else it costs money, then it's a decent job. And there is no reason someone who shows up on time, does their work well, and then goes home... why they can't be paid living wages... is beyond my understanding.

To me, it really sucks that people can't be paid reasonably well. The UAW managed to keep their wages *the same* compared to inflation for the last 30 years. If anything, you should be pissed that you aren't getting paid that much, not be pissed at your fellow peer for making more money than you do. The only reason you're not making more money than you do is because you're subsidizing somebody higher up the food chain who wants three Escalades in his 5,000 sqft house and $100/month phone bill for each his wife, mistress, and three children. That guy's job is probably mostly figuring out how to squeeze a few bucks more out of each product and since ten years ago he made the machines and supplies as cheap as can be... the only thing left is labor. And there is no way in hell they're going to notice that they're the expensive labor in the equation.

Being from Michigan and having a Dad who has worked in a lot of plants as they closed or got sold... I've been in a lot. I also did the Boy Scouts/Explorer thing and got into a lot more. And I got in some via some electronics courses (like ABB Robotics). Yeah, 15 years ago there were a lot of old guys sitting around or riding tricycles around a lot. 10 years ago they started disappearing. 5 years ago they were pretty much gone except a few old dinosaurs that didn't have anything to live for. A month ago I didn't see any. There are still plenty of sloths around but now they have to at least do something (or do what everyone does now: go to the doctor for free to get a note to get the day off). I was at the Lansing Delta Township plant and I saw one guy on his ass. He was 58 years old and about to retire (two days to go). He had a FUBARed leg from a stamping press failure 25 years prior and lost an eye five years ago from I forget what. Something in body shop. What the fsck does this guy have to look forward to in retirement?

There are some cake jobs at GM in the assembly line, no doubt about it. But when they aren't physically demanding they're usually mentally demanding. Such as the Care Line and global audit. Basically you walk around with tons of measuring devices and a clipboard. In the case of audit, you chase squeak and rattle, water problems, et cetera.

The amount of young people (ie: my age or younger) in the plant, who were not overweight or sickly looking in the least, that were working with elbow braces, knee braces, support belts, et cetera was staggering. We're talking about people in their twenties. How are they ever going to make it to retirement? And they haven't got shit to look forward to with non-matching 401k and$14.something an hour if they even make it to retirement.

I've said it a million times, for one person to get rich a ton of people have to get poor. Since no one wants to earn an honest buck it's causing the middle class to shrink like crazy. And nowadays because everyone thinks they should be rich there are people in Brookfield who make $150k/year and think they're middle class.