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GRAMPS SS
04-12-2009, 03:54 PM
This was pulled off YAHOO.................

The American auto industry is hanging by a thread, with the fate of General Motors and Chrysler largely in the hands of the federal government. Taxpayer loans are keeping them alive for now, but their long-term success will depend on whether they have the cars and trucks that people desire.



Detroit's record on that has been spotty--witness the awful Pontiac Aztek or the subpar Chrysler Sebring--which is one reason car companies are in the mess they're in now.


But for every dog Detroit has tried to push on the American people in recent years, there have been clear winners too: The new Chevrolet Malibu, for instance, tops the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry in fuel efficiency and independent quality surveys. The bold rear-wheel-drive Chrysler 300 generated buzz that Chrysler hadn't experienced in years. And the new 41-mpg Ford Fusion hybrid is the most fuel-efficient mid-sized car in America. (Toyota's new 2010 Prius, at 50 mpg, is considerably smaller.)



And despite the beating Detroit has taken in recent months for its focus on gas-guzzling trucks, Ford Motor's F-150, Chrysler's Dodge Ram and GM's Chevy and GMC pickups are still extremely popular and will remain an important source of profits for the foreseeable future.



U.S. carmakers really can make world-class vehicles that consumers want (though the public hasn't always given them credit for it). They'll need every ounce of that capability to pull themselves out of their current tailspin.



But it's not just consumers that Detroit automakers have to please; now they have to satisfy the government's policy objectives too. And what the Obama administration and the Democrat-controlled Congress want--more hybrids and fuel-efficient small cars--are not necessarily what the public is willing to pay for. Fuel-efficient technology is expensive; if consumers won't pay extra for it, carmakers will have to sacrifice profits, which will only make their recovery more difficult.



President Obama's auto industry task force acknowledged as much in its assessment of GM's viability when it referred to the most prominent car on the horizon for GM, the Chevy Volt. Due in November 2010, it's a plug-in electric car that can go 40 miles on a single charge, before a small gasoline engine kicks in to recharge the battery.



"While the Volt holds promise, it is currently projected to be much more expensive than its gasoline-fueled peers and will likely need substantial reductions in manufacturing cost in order to become commercially viable," the panel said.



Everyone knows the Volt will not save GM financially, according to John Wolkonowicz, automotive analyst at IHS Global Insight. But it's critical to the company's future, he says, because "it showcases to the world what GM is able to do."



"The car that's going to save GM," suggests automotive consultant James Hall, of 2953 Analytics in Birmingham, Mich., "is the Chevy Cruze, and the derivatives that will come off it."



The Cruze is a fuel-efficient compact designed in Korea that will sell in markets throughout the world. It goes on sale in North America in the first half of 2010. A small seven-passenger van built off the same platform, the Chevy Orlando, is expected a little later. By selling in huge volumes, perhaps as many as 1.7 million worldwide, the Cruze family could allow GM to be profitable on small cars for a change.



Like GM, Ford's future is also tied to world-class small cars like the upcoming Fiesta and Focus, designed in Europe, and to advanced engine technology. Ford's direct injection, turbo-charged Ecoboost engines allow motorists to achieve 20% to 30% better fuel economy without sacrificing performance. By 2013, Ford says Ecoboost will be available on 90% of its lineup, including the next-generation 2011 Ford Explorer, due next year.



2011 Chevrolet Cruze"The Explorer is maybe the best example of what will make them successful," says Wolkonowicz. "Give consumers everything they want, plus the better fuel economy the government is demanding. You're not likely to get that anywhere else."



For Chrysler, the future is a lot sketchier. Obama's task force didn't buy Chrysler's argument that it's viable as a stand-alone company. It has given the company until April 30 to reach an alliance with Italy's Fiat SPA, or face liquidation.



Fiat could provide Chrysler with the small-car technology and fuel-efficient engines it lacks. Its 500 minicar, MiTo subcompact and Lancia Delta compact are good candidates for shared technology. The problem is that no Fiat-engineered vehicle can come out of Chrysler's North American factories before mid-2011. In the meantime, there's not much on the horizon that can reverse Chrysler's sales nosedive, down 49% so far this year, following a 30% drop in 2008.



"By 2011 there are a lot of new products coming, and you'll be seeing the best lineup these companies have had in their history--if they can just span this miserable period we're in right now," says Wolkonowicz .



Five Cars That Can Save Detroit
1. 2011 Chevy Volt

2. Chrysler 200C concept

3. 2010 Buick Lacrosse

4. 2010 Ford Fusion hybrid

5. 2011 Ford Fiesta

6. 2011 Chevy Orlando

7. 2011 Ford Explorer

8. 2011 Chevy Cruze

9. 2010 Ford Focus

10. Fiat 500

Plum Crazy
04-12-2009, 04:50 PM
i like how these cars built in other countries are going to save the american auto industry. Who the hell is going to buy a little cracker jack car?? not me.

Karps TA
04-12-2009, 04:55 PM
That list also known as "10 cars I'd have zero interest in buying"

I found more cars I liked in the 10 that sank Detroit.

Plum Crazy
04-12-2009, 04:59 PM
That list also known as "10 cars I'd have zero interest in buying"

I found more cars I liked in the 10 that sank Detroit.


isnt that the truth!!!

the only one on that list id buy is the lacrosse, it looks badass in the new redesign.

Karps TA
04-12-2009, 05:11 PM
For some reason the media keeps think America is going to turn in all their big cars and start driving little tiny cars like they do in Europe and Asia. But they refuse to understand we have more urban sprawl then then those places. People don't all cram into cities. We also have alot of families that have more then .5 children so you need room for them. Not too mention our big fat American asses that don't fit worth a damn in those little crappy cars.

That's great that US companies will offer those vehicles for people who want them, but I don't see any of them as saviors. Unless GM can build them for $400 and sell them for $12K and sell about half a million of them a year.

LIZMO
04-12-2009, 05:15 PM
i liike the Fiat 500. i'd consider getting on of those.

brotherbenn83
04-12-2009, 05:20 PM
Five Cars That Can Save Detroit
1. 2011 Chevy Volt

2. Chrysler 200C concept

3. 2010 Buick Lacrosse

4. 2010 Ford Fusion hybrid

5. 2011 Ford Fiesta

6. 2011 Chevy Orlando

7. 2011 Ford Explorer

8. 2011 Chevy Cruze

9. 2010 Ford Focus

10. Fiat 500

Did the gov't do the math here? Anyone else see something (BOLD) wrong with this?

Prince Valiant
04-12-2009, 06:35 PM
Another not very well thought out article...numerous errors...one of which is this:


For Chrysler, the future is a lot sketchier. Obama's task force didn't buy Chrysler's argument that it's viable as a stand-alone company. It has given the company until April 30 to reach an alliance with Italy's Fiat SPA, or face liquidation.The deal with fiat was in the works from before Obama was even in office. Even when many were discussing the possibilities of a GM-Chrysler Merger 6 months ago, Chrysler was actually engaged with talks w/ both Renault-Nissan and Fiat each, looking to share platforms, manufacturing capabilities, and technology. Furthermore, chrysler wouldn't face "liquidation" per an obama administrative decree, rather, like all businesses, would enter into bankruptcy.

Just as the article before -presumably written by the same individual- there were little nuggets of truth sprinkled throughout a dearth of facts and poorly conceived understanding of detroit's problems and their causes....so it's no surprise that he was so "off" then in offering detroits solutions.

Plum Crazy
04-12-2009, 06:41 PM
Another not very well thought out article...numerous errors...one of which is this:
The deal with fiat was in the works from before Obama was even in office. Even when many were discussing the possibilities of a GM-Chrysler Merger 6 months ago, Chrysler was actually engaged with talks w/ both Renault-Nissan and Fiat each, looking to share platforms, manufacturing capabilities, and technology. Furthermore, chrysler wouldn't face "liquidation" per an obama administrative decree, rather, like all businesses, would enter into bankruptcy.

Just as the article before -presumably written by the same individual- there were little nuggets of truth sprinkled throughout a dearth of facts and poorly conceived understanding of detroit's problems and their causes....so it's no surprise that he was so "off" then in offering detroits solutions.


basicly, when it comes to vehicles, the media doesnt know shit!!! Just like that vid of that reporter talking about that Integra with a CAI that, according to the reporter "has 10-15k" in mods done.

Holeshot
04-12-2009, 07:01 PM
I would have bought a Volt if the design at the 08 NAIAS was the final production design.

Exitspeed
04-12-2009, 07:19 PM
You guys must not be paying attention if you are questioning the impact that those cars are going to have on our automotive landscape.

TURTLE
04-12-2009, 07:43 PM
200c? anyone find any pics of that? sounds interesting...

also, a fiat 500 would sell boatloads over here! just look at the originals, and the new ones aren't too far from that concept

Fast SVT
04-12-2009, 11:35 PM
Those cars won't save jack or shit.

Exitspeed
04-13-2009, 08:04 AM
200c? anyone find any pics of that? sounds interesting...

also, a fiat 500 would sell boatloads over here! just look at the originals, and the new ones aren't too far from that concept

Here's the 200c. This is what the Sebring should have been in it's current form. It was designed by the same guy who designed the 300c. Only this car looks good.

http://chryslerweblog.com/images/uploads/200C-concept.jpg
http://www.inhabitat.com/wp-content/uploads/200cev-ed03.jpg
http://blog.mlive.com/naias_impact/2009/01/large_ET009_008EV.jpg

Some info.

"A range-extended four-passenger sedan, the car is about the size of a BMW 5-Series. A rear-wheel-driver powered by a plug-in hybrid drivetrain that includes a "small gasoline engine" - Chrysler didn't say how small - aided by a lithium-ion batteries and an electric generator putting out 55kW (74 horsepower) of continuous power. The system's combined forces are good for 200 kW (268 hp) of peak power. The car can go 40 miles on electric power alone (a number that sounds rather familiar), and has an estimated range of up to 400 miles. The 200C is not a slowpoke, either, with a predicted 7-second blast to sixty, and a top speed north of 120."

And yeah the Fiat would do very well over here.


Those cars won't save jack or shit.

Some of you must really live under a rock.

I'm curious to here from you guys that don't think these cars are going to make the domestics relevant again what you think would. Other then just "going away".

Prince Valiant
04-13-2009, 08:52 AM
You guys must not be paying attention if you are questioning the impact that those cars are going to have on our automotive landscape.The problem with detroit won't be that these cars aren't significant or of little "impact." Cars like the 200c (which probably won't be available as an "EV" for some time) and buick lacrosse will hopefully go a long way toward curing detroit's image problem when it comes to building quality sedans...and they'll probably sell a ton of lacrosse's in china. Great.

The problem is structurally, even with successful sales of ALL these cars, detroit most likely won't be profitable if things continue as they are. You can sell all the cars you want, but if you're not making, or worse, loosing money on them, then sell all you want...it won't help. It has long been true that mostly larger vehicles such as minivans, trucks, and SUV's have been the only profitable vehicles they make...they've sold plenty of taurus's and malibu's, etc, etc, etc...but they don't make money there because it's too expensive to produce the cars with their structural arrangement.

That's the problem with the premise of his article....that detroit's problems result from the cars that it puts out. It's not...it is it's structure that doesn't allow for it to make a profit...or in turn causes it to lose money every time the market hiccups. Why does GM have Daewoo produce the aveo abroad, and not here? Because it'd be a HUGE money loser to do so here....otherwise, the price it'd have to sell for to keep from losing money would price it above what people would be willing to spend for it. Ford or Chrysler have nothing that is really in that segment.

The fact of the matter is, that even with the cars today Detroit could be extremely viable...they still are all in the top 5 in terms of cars built/sold, so moving the product isn't the problem. This isn't to say that their cars are great now...they have some catching up to do. But there problem comes from a ridiculously poor corporate structure that isn't entirely the fault of management either.



200c? anyone find any pics of that? sounds interesting...

also, a fiat 500 would sell boatloads over here! just look at the originals, and the new ones aren't too far from that conceptThe 200C will hopefully be an unmitigated success. Right now, Alfa Romeo is studying whether or not to use the platform to underpin some mid-priced cars they would like to introduce as well. It'll be nice to have a moderate priced RWD mid-sized sedan available from a domestic producer.

The Fiat 500 will likely sell at a premium. They are looking to build it at the chrysler plant in Trenton NJ. I wish they'd sell the car inexpensively, but apparently they envision it going against the Mini, IE, at a substantial price hike over say, an Aveo or Fit/Versa/Scion/etc.

Another Fiat to look forward to is the Panda:
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/fAg4DdXAp7Y&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/fAg4DdXAp7Y&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

It'll be sold as a small Jeep and is quite capable for what it is. The really impressive thing is that it should get a US combined rating of ~ 37mpg (that's what it's European cycle translates roughly to). The possibility exist to use a diesel version as well that get's into the mid/upper 40's...from an AWD vehicle!

If it makes it to the US, I will buy it.

LIZMO
04-13-2009, 10:53 AM
last i saw the Fiat 500 was going to be priced around 17-20K

Karps TA
04-13-2009, 11:01 AM
Doesn't matter how good a car is IMO if people can't afford to buy them. Domestic mfg's need to get back into leasing IMO to move some damn inventory. Even with 0% financing you're still looking at a $350+ payment on most car. And when you can get into a bunch of different foreign cars for under $220 a month, that's where people on a budget are going to look. Or they will buy used.

I don't see the Fiat making much bigger of a splash then the Mini Cooper did. A car that when it came out was hip and trendy but then 3 years later you almost never see the things.

Prince Valiant
04-13-2009, 11:22 AM
Domestic mfg's need to get back into leasing IMO to move some damn inventory. Even with 0% financing you're still looking at a $350+ payment on most car. Leasing was a money losing proposition for them...hence they effectively got out of the leasing business.

Plus, you make a faulty assumption about what people are looking at to get into a car, presumably based on your own situation. That is that people looking to buy a new car, are looking to do so outright, rather than with a trade-in. Most who buy a new car do have some form of trade-in, and quite likely a down payment to put up as well, bringing the down payment down a bit.

Karps TA
04-13-2009, 11:34 AM
I always enjoy how you can tell someone that they are wrong when they give an OPINION, especially when it's even stated that it's an opinion. It's really a gift.

I happen to know a bunch of people in similar situations who would love to get a new domestic vehicle but they don't have much of a trade in, or don't want to put a bunch of money down on a car. But despite the 0% interest OR the rebates still can't get into a car at a decent price. Whereas they can get into quite a few Jap cars at the price point they want.

Prince Valiant
04-13-2009, 12:20 PM
I always enjoy how you can tell someone that they are wrong when they give an OPINION, especially when it's even stated that it's an opinion. It's really a gift.:rolleyes:
don't tell me you think opinions can't be wrong? Seriously...only retards can hide behind "opinions can't be wrong" excuse.

You have an opinion that automakers should get back into leasing. This opinion is wrong since it was a money losing proposition...if it wasn't a money loser for them they'd never gotten out, or they'd go right back in. It's like having an opinion that the sky is Yellow and clouds are magenta...to you it may be true, but this is based on YOUR faulty perception, and thus is wrong.

Voodoo Chick
04-13-2009, 01:35 PM
I wouldn't be caught dead in any one of them.

TheRX7Project
04-13-2009, 01:40 PM
Are you saying you wouldn't... for a DD....

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g35/willfusion/blog%20specific/eurofordfocus.jpg?t=1208255968
or
http://manublogs.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/fiat-500-photo.jpg
I totally would roll either of those for the daily grind.

Voodoo Chick
04-13-2009, 01:43 PM
NO!! I'm super-picky about cars.....If I could afford another car, I think I'd really like a nice big Crown Vic for a daily.......black, of course.