Things aren't looking good...

[Fast95Stang]

Last Sunday I was fooling around in my Mustang a bit.

This is the post I put on another forum:
I was going past our house and I punched it in first gear, then I drove a little farther and all of a sudden it started making an odd noise. It sounded like something metal rattling around. I shut it down immediately fearing it was something in the engine. I will admit that I didn't let it warm up like I usually do before I start driving it hard. My 4 year old niece wanted me to go faster so I figured I would just stab it once and be done. Luckily I was only 500 ft from our house. So I started it up to listen to it again and make sure the oil pressure was good. Oil pressure was just fine and the noise sounded like it was coming from the bellhousing. At first I thought it was the pilot bearing but I couldn't get anything to listen to the bellhousing with. I brought my mechanics stethoscope home from work today and it seems like the noise that I thought was coming from the bellhousing has gone away. Now it sounds like it is valve train noise. Since I have put my new engine in (2 years ago) it has made some valve train noise. It is considerably louder now. I took the oil fill cap off (located on the passenger side valve cover) and used my stethoscope to listen in the hole, there is no doubt that it is coming from that side. Good thing I have a new intake manifold that I was planning to put on soon. It will be easy to take off the valve cover and look at all the rocker arms and pushrods, etc. Any thoughts on what I should look for? Are there any common problems? I have Brodix cylinder heads, I'm not sure what brand rockers are on there. I will contact PER to see what Randy says.


Anyway....Here is an update from today...


Well the valve train noise is much more than what I expected.
I am the newest member of the Jack Stands Racing League!

My two uncles came over yesterday to help me out. We found a lot of things that I am NOT happy about at all...We spent a good part of the day taking things apart, and looking at possible causes of everything.

I will post more details later, but at this point it looks like the engine will have to come out and be rebuilt...

Season over...:fire

[Reverend Cooper]

sorry bout that greg really sucks

[Sprayaway Fox]

Were in the same boat, first ride out of the garage I pop a tire, then the cars fuel pump cuts out whenever it wants which was the same problem I had right at the endo the year last year after I threw some parts at it. Then on the way to try to get it home I get pulled over for loud exhaust and get a ticket. My car dies again and wont start while Im pulled over with a flat tire and I had to get my trailer to pick it up to drive 3 miles. This years getting off to a bad time so far.

[nismodave]

Sorry to hear that, Gregg. How bad is it?

[Reverend Cooper]

greg what did you see so far?

[Fast95Stang]

To give a little more detail...

I found that my pushrods have been grinding on the plates they go through in the cylinder head. Every one of them has gouges and a metal ring around it. The reason I believe the engine has to be rebuilt is because now there are tiny metal filings all throughout the engine. Also, I can twist my rocker arms from side to side. To me that doesn't seem right. I will try to get some pictures later today so it makes more sense. I sure hope PER will work with me because in my eyes it is an assembly error.

[Reverend Cooper]

almost sounds that way,like the drivetrain geometry is wrong,or the pushrod length is incorrrect,that would explain the blue smoke last year also if the geometry is wrong the valve guides may be worn also letting oil into the combustion chamber

[Russ Jerome]

Are these pushrod "guides" your rubbing on?

I was helping a guy assemble a BBC and I noticed he
had guides for smaller pushrods, they were available in
two outside diameters and his were incorrect. Im not
up on Fords but I've installed them on my Chevs and
Pontiacs before.

Roller rockers wont pivot but ball/sockets will:
https://www.jrmotorsports.com/Images/UploadedImages/Valve_Train_Components/ELG_R1840RST.jpg

[Jon5.0]

Sorry to hear about that.

[Fast95Stang]

almost sounds that way,like the drivetrain geometry is wrong,or the pushrod length is incorrrect,that would explain the blue smoke last year also if the geometry is wrong the valve guides may be worn also letting oil into the combustion chamber

I did notice a fair amount of oil in the upper intake so I'm willing to bet thats what the blue smoke is coming from. I don't know why there is so much oil getting past the PCV filter. I am going to put an oil separator in between the PCV valve and the t-body.

[Voodoo Chick]

VERY sorry to hear, hope it all works out OK........

[Irish]

Do you have guide plates? That could have be where the pushrods are rubbing. I thought to an degree they are supposed to rub, that is why you have to run hardened pushrods.

Also run an oil catch can and that should help eliminate the oil issue.

[Fast95Stang]

Do you have guide plates? That could have be where the pushrods are rubbing. I thought to an degree they are supposed to rub, that is why you have to run hardened pushrods.

Also run an oil catch can and that should help eliminate the oil issue.

Yes I do have guide plates. That is exactly correct that they are supposed to rub on them, the plates are what keep the rocker arms straight. (I just learned all of this myself)
I sent my old push rods back to PER and Randy told me that they were not hardened. Since the engine was built a couple years ago he told me he can't say what happened in the shop or why they didn't put hardened rods in. Whatever the case may be, I should be getting new hardened push rods at my doorstep today. No charge to me.:thumbsup

After talking with Randy, and a couple other very knowledgeable people I determined that doing a series of oil changes will flush out any metal shavings and I won't have to rebuild.

[xxtremeteam]

sounds good back on track before the warm season ever gets here if all goes well

[SMOKDU]

i guess at the very least i would pull off the upper intake and pull out the lifters and check and see if the rollers are ok. make sure the cam did not get nicked bad. just an idea and it is easy to do. good luck

[Reverend Cooper]

i'd be pulling that motor and sending it back to be redone,the right way.

[Irish]

i'd be pulling that motor and sending it back to be redone,the right way.

As much as it would suck to do, I agree. If something else fails as a result of the metal shavings, it would harder to prove later on down the road. Instead of getting 100,000 mi out of the motor you might only get 75-80.
I would give them a chance to make it right. And I would say exactly that. But in a polite way. It sounds to me that they already admitted fault.

[Reverend Cooper]

I did notice a fair amount of oil in the upper intake so I'm willing to bet thats what the blue smoke is coming from. I don't know why there is so much oil getting past the PCV filter. I am going to put an oil separator in between the PCV valve and the t-body.

oil in the intake on a non boosted app is unlikely unless the pcv is stuck open or there is to much blow by. change the pcv and retry if it still does this its a internal issue. my opinion stands they put the wrong timing cover on it and put wrong internals in it. pull it out take it back and demand it be redone with pictures of the process proving it was all done and ask for your old parts back. you paid for new correct,not new incorrect and metal shavings thats bullshit period

[Irish]

oil in the intake on a non boosted app is unlikely unless the pcv is stuck open or there is to much blow by. change the pcv and retry if it still does this its a internal issue. my opinion stands they put the wrong timing cover on it and put wrong internals in it. pull it out take it back and demand it be redone with pictures of the process proving it was all done and ask for your old parts back. you paid for new correct,not new incorrect and metal shacings thats bullshit period




Shacings wow... is that worse than shavings? :goof

[Fast95Stang]

Hello everyone! This is Greg's wife Lynn. I am posting this for him while he is at work. He has been really busy working on everyone else's cars the last week and he still has to fix the Focus before we go to NY on Wednesday, so I am helping him out with this post.

Well the first step of "fixing" the engine arrived yesterday. Randy at PER sent us new the new hardened push rods. We are just curious about the quality and reputation of the brand we received. They are from Engine Pro Racing or the other name on the package is Engine Pro Performance (website (http://www.goenginepro.com/index.html)). They are packaged in plastic bags, with a cardstock topper (to be hung up when at a store). Since we have never bought these ourselves, we were just curious if that is the typical packaging, as well as the quality/reputation. The part number is 581-6250, the measurements on the rods are 5/16 x .083, 6.250.

The old push rods had a little "ball like" knob on both ends, while these ones are completely straight with rounded tips.

If anyone knows anything about these push rods, please post up! We are starting to get concerned about other parts that are in the engine. These rods were not the only part NOT intended for this engine. (Others include the oil pan and timing cover). We hope that there aren't other parts that were not meant for this engine...

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you might have!

Lynn

[07ROUSHSTG3]

Pull that motor!

[Irish]

Hello everyone! This is Greg's wife Lynn. I am posting this for him while he is at work. He has been really busy working on everyone else's cars the last week and he still has to fix the Focus before we go to NY on Wednesday, so I am helping him out with this post.

Well the first step of "fixing" the engine arrived yesterday. Randy at PER sent us new the new hardened push rods. We are just curious about the quality and reputation of the brand we received. They are from Engine Pro Racing or the other name on the package is Engine Pro Performance (website (http://www.goenginepro.com/index.html)). They are packaged in plastic bags, with a cardstock topper (to be hung up when at a store). Since we have never bought these ourselves, we were just curious if that is the typical packaging, as well as the quality/reputation. The part number is 581-6250, the measurements on the rods are 5/16 x .083, 6.250.

The old push rods had a little "ball like" knob on both ends, while these ones are completely straight with rounded tips.

If anyone knows anything about these push rods, please post up! We are starting to get concerned about other parts that are in the engine. These rods were not the only part NOT intended for this engine. (Others include the oil pan and timing cover). We hope that there aren't other parts that were not meant for this engine...

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you might have!

Lynn

Hey if you guys want or need a hand with the car, give me a call, I recently moved to Muskego a few months ago. I really get pissed when someone pays hard earned money for something and then don't get what they pay for. I am a consumer advocate, for just a hobby. I pm'd you my number.

[wrath]

I'd pull a couple main bearing caps and have a look-see at a bare minimum. Shit floating around in the engine isn't good.

[Fast95Stang]

Hey if you guys want or need a hand with the car, give me a call, I recently moved to Muskego a few months ago. I really get pissed when someone pays hard earned money for something and then don't get what they pay for. I am a consumer advocate, for just a hobby. I pm'd you my number.
Thanks a lot man! If I need a hand with it I will give you a call.

[Fast95Stang]

Just to clarify what my wife posted... Yes, I did have to swap the timing cover from my old engine. They put on a fox body cover, not a sn-95. The oil pan was fine, I just took that off to put the new timing cover on.

Everyone is making very good points and now that I think about it more I really should try to get them to redo it. The engine is basically ready to come out anyway, just unbolt the accessories and trans.

This sucks :mad:

[Reverend Cooper]

pull it out dont waste time now

[Beagle]

that sucks what happened but thats what you get for getting on it with a 4 year old in the car. How dumb can you be?

[Fast95Stang]

that sucks what happened but thats what you get for getting on it with a 4 year old in the car. How dumb can you be?

I guess I wasn't clear enough in my first post on this topic...
Here are the details of what lead up to me "getting on it."

1. My 4 year old niece was standing INSIDE the house while my car was warming up on the driveway.
2. I had it warming up so I could take my uncle, who was visiting from CA, for a ride. (He has never been in my 'Stang).
3. She, my niece, was jumping up and down by the front door yelling, "faster, faster Uncle Greg" (Lynn came out and told me that and when the car was warm to take it past the house so she, my niece, could see me).
4. She, my niece, was NOT in the car with me... Hell, no one at the house could even see my car where I shut it down! I was alone with the car.

Next time make sure you have the facts before you jump the gun and call someone dumb. I am not that kind of a guy!

Just so this topic doesn't get hijacked anymore, if anyone needs to respond to BeagZ post, please start a new topic or PM me. This thread is about the trouble I am having with my engine.

[Reverend Cooper]

that sucks what happened but thats what you get for getting on it with a 4 year old in the car. How dumb can you be?

stop now please

[wrath]

This group contains a bunch of people that are fawkin' tards when it comes to how others raise their children. If someone isn't beating their children for the hell of it, molesting them, throwing them in front of a bus, or causing them severe undue mental anguish... then shut the fsck up.

Anyway, I still believe you should pull the engine apart. Unless you only have like $700 into it, then it doesn't matter as much. But it sounds like you have some coin in it so I'd pull it.

[DRK]

I would do what the builder says. If your worried about him standing behind it, ask him if there's a related problem in the future if he'll stand behind it, if not then go from there. He's a reputable builder that's been in business for a LONG time, has been known to stand behind he work, and builds some sick motors, check NMCA and NMRA.
IMO..You probably had more metal flying around in that motor during break-in then you do now.

[Reverend Cooper]

^then wouldn't he know to put the correct timing cover on and the correct pushrods,everyone makes mistakes. he admitted to it he should do what Greg wants done not what he wants done.

[DRK]

^ Whatever, someday I hope to live in your world

[Reverend Cooper]

^ what world is that,the one where you should recieve what you paid for.

[cyclone70]

I found 2 severely bent pushrods in my Cleveland the first drive this year. Replaced them all and so far so good

[Reverend Cooper]

thats a good thing,what caused them to bend,or were they just bad parts

[Beagle]

I guess I wasn't clear enough in my first post on this topic...
Here are the details of what lead up to me "getting on it."

1. My 4 year old niece was standing INSIDE the house while my car was warming up on the driveway.
2. I had it warming up so I could take my uncle, who was visiting from CA, for a ride. (He has never been in my 'Stang).
3. She, my niece, was jumping up and down by the front door yelling, "faster, faster Uncle Greg" (Lynn came out and told me that and when the car was warm to take it past the house so she, my niece, could see me).
4. She, my niece, was NOT in the car with me... Hell, no one at the house could even see my car where I shut it down! I was alone with the car.

Next time make sure you have the facts before you jump the gun and call someone dumb. I am not that kind of a guy!

Just so this topic doesn't get hijacked anymore, if anyone needs to respond to BeagZ post, please start a new topic or PM me. This thread is about the trouble I am having with my engine.




Ok thats alot different than flooring it with a 4 year old kid in the car. Hope you can fix your car. :thumbsup

[cyclone70]

thats a good thing,what caused them to bend,or were they just bad parts

I think the adjustable rockers weren't set correctly

[Waver]

I would have them pull it and tear it down, with documentation....you spent too much money to receive all the headaches you are having now greg

[DRK]

I believe it's unrealistic to demand a new motor at this stage.

[Reverend Cooper]

No one has seaid demand a new motor,I fell it is not improper to send it in and have it torn down and have bearings and such replaced,It was all new when he got it,shy shouldn't it be new after their admitted mistake?

[Fast95Stang]

Just got back from a nice vacation to NY state to visit Lynn's parents and other family. It was a nice road trip and a good time.

Well I'm not going to ask for a new engine. I do feel that it should be rebuilt because of the issues I'm having. PER said they would cut open the oil filter to see if there is metal in there, and if there is they would take the oil pan off and inspect the crank and rod bearings. If they find that the bearings need to be replaced I don't know if they would replace them. Lets say I have them do that, what about the oil in the manifold? I still have that issue, so the engine would have to be rebuilt anyway. I know that the PCV valve is not stuck, it moves freely. The only thing for the PCV system that I don't have hooked up is the tube from the valve cover to the air intake before the throttle body. I don't think that would cause oil to pool in the intake. Since I want to rebuild it I doubt I will get anything from PER. I will talk to them to see what they say.
I am thinking of building a high compression 331. What does everyone think?

[Fast95Stang]

Anyone have suggestions, comments??

[Irish]

I already told you what I think you should do. So have a few others. In the end you are just going to do what you want. I think that is why no one is really bothering posting about it.

[badass88gt]

I would keep faith in Randy at this point. He can either help you out a bit or he can wash his hands of it, and so far it sounds like he is willing to work with you. Take advantage of that while it is available, let him inspect the filter and make a determination from there.

What condition were the pushrods in, were they worn through the wall or just a little scuffed? How about the guideplates, where were they rubbing, on the sides or at the bottom of the groove?

I dont think I would be TOO upset JUST YET. As it was mentioned, there is probably more junk floating around during break-in. If it were mine I would cut the filter myself, inspect, if there is shit in there send it to him, or at the very least I would be present at the shop when he cuts it. As far as "rebuilt", I would realistically think new bearings may be in order, but not a ful rebuild. I'm sure the rings and everything else are just fine.