Camaro production already predicted to end?

[Prince Valiant]

Camaro production to halt after 2010?
Possible, thanks to onerous EPA regulations and GM's acceptance of bailout cash.

After all the teasing, all the rumors, all the false starts, the ups, the downs, production of the all-new Camaro has finally started. But after all the hoops and hoopla, could production come to an end after but one year? According to insiders, this is more than an outside possibility.

Thanks to a little read detail in the bailout agreement, the Camaro may in fact be outlawed when new EPA regulations kick in Jan 1st, 2011.

The problem appears to be one of three things:

1. The Camaro is classified as a "Midsize"
2. New EPA regulations being inacted 2011 forbid two separate midsize vehicles that do not share the same basic architecture or platform or face a nominal fine on a per vehicle sold basis.
3. Provisions in the bailout, in order to gain greater EPA compliance, forbid violating any of the new EPA regulations.

Currently, the mid-size stable at GM is occupied by the Epsilon platform, which is their highest selling platform worldwide. Under new rules, technically the new Camaro would have to share significant architecture to be allowable, which it does not. Either GM would have to scrap the Epsilon cars, or the Camaro. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure which would get the axe.

What about the Challenger and Mustang?
These rules don't apply to cars that are not classified as midsized. The Mustang retains a "compact" classification, while the portly challenger is listed as a "fullsize." Also, the strict adherence to the EPA regulations is only deemed if bailout cash was accepted by the automaker, of which Ford accepted none.

One person we talked to believed Ford executives based their decision to not accept bailout money due to the stipulation to adhere strictly to the new EPA regulations, believing them to be "onerous in application." Our insider noted that Ford is not much better off cash-wise than either GM or Chrysler, but felt the EPA standards would be too costly to implement immediately, far less costly than the fines they may likely incur.

What are the Camaro's chances?
It depends on how you look at it. The car might still remain in production; but it might not continue to be sold here in the U.S.

If by 2011, things are looking better for GM, and they likely won't need anymore infusions of cash from the government, GM will likely continue to sell the Camaro in the US market, quickly paying off it's loans so it does not have to adhere as strictly to the EPA standards as they would if they still owed.

If the economy continues to labor, and GM either hasn't payed back the loans, or isn't capable of paying off the loans, then Camaro production would dwindle, with cars only being exported for foreign markets. This would allow for a reintroduction once the debt is satisfied.

But if foreign markets don't take to the distinctively American styling and performance priorities, production may in fact be halted.

There is hope!
Other avenues open to continued to be explored, including negotiations with the Whitehouse and Congress. Rick Wagoner is said to be in Washington this weekend lobbying for some flexibility with the EPA rules. Though one insider present in negotiations note that many in the meetings are more concerned with environmental impact of breaking the EPA regulations; he also noted that some representing congress in the negotiations understands the situation GM is in, and is willing to push for some changes.

Our insider within the product planning division notes that the platform used for the camaro is very flexible, underpinning some fullsize cars overseas. She notes that plans are being worked on to increase the interior capacity to bring the Camaro up to "fullsize" status. She notes that they cannot realistically make the car smaller. She sadly also notes that the lengthening to get to fullsize specifications would also result in a car with different proportions and probably 300 lbs. more weight.

Best case scenario?
Easily being for a quick upturn in the economy and a quick pay down of loans, allowing GM greater leeway with EPA compliance. Otherwise you might be reading about how great Aussie auto enthusiast have it with the readily available Camaro, or contemplating a distorted, overweight facsimile of what we once called, "the Camaro."

From GMInsider.com (http://www.funny-potato.com/images/april-fool/funny-april-fool.gif)

[Josepy]

bwwaahhh

[Plum Crazy]

i wonder how far off the wheelbase is so they can call it a fullsize?? the challenger is 116 inches.

[shoooo32]

SO either it goes away in 2011 or adds another 300lbs to its already fat ass. Good to see our tax dollars at work.:rolleyes:

[Karps TA]

On a positive note, maybe if it does go, we can see a new concept car at shows in 3 years, and then have to wait for it for another 5.

Or they could just rename the Cobalt.

[Voodoo Chick]

SO either it goes away in 2011 or adds another 300lbs to its already fat ass. Good to see our tax dollars at work.:rolleyes:


What? Ya mean you wouldn't want a 2-ton Camaro???? :stare :rolf

[RanJer]

Or they could just rename the Cobalt.

Hmm... whatcha thinkin? Cavalier sounds like a good name for that car... :thumbsup

[Voodoo Chick]

I really am starting to think the 2010 Camaro is just plain doomed.

[Poncho]

On a positive note, maybe if it does go, we can see a new concept car at shows in 3 years, and then have to wait for it for another 5.

Or they could just rename the Cobalt.


HAHAHAHAHHA..

i snorted that was inexpectedly true and funny.

how is it a midsize? my roo is a compact!

[Plum Crazy]

shit, make it avalible with AWD and classify it as a light truck while youre at it.

[RanJer]

how is it a midsize? my roo is a compact!
2005 GTO: wheelbase (inches): 109.8
2010 Camaro: Wheelbase (in/mm): 112.3 / 2852
2010 Mustang: wheelbase (inches): 107.1

[Poncho]

2.5 fucking inches!!!! thats it! gay!

[Slow Joe]

shit, make it avalible with AWD and classify it as a light truck while youre at it.

Mightas well... The HHR is technically a "Truck" Although it has absolutely no truck qualities...

[Poncho]

Mightas well... The HHR is technically a "Truck" Although it has absolutely no truck qualities...

or car qualities... :rolf

[70 cutlass 442]

Ohhh no, i bet PBR will be in high demand in trialer parks across the nation tonight :durr

What a joke, GM needs to just go under and be done with it.

[Cjburn]

It's not GM that's the problem. It is now, and always has been the heavy hand of government. Stricter EPA regulations based on the lefties religion, "climate change."

[Exitspeed]

That article is mostly correct except it leaves out some very possible scenarios. Currently the new Camaro is on the Zeta platform which also supports the G8 and various other cars not sold here in the states.

However GM has a new Alpha platform in the works that if switched to the Camaro would be considered a compact like the Mustang.

The future Baby CTS (3 Series fighter) is planned on this platform. I'm eagerly awaiting more info from GM about this new Caddy more then anything else in their future portfolio.

[Prince Valiant]

EPA size classification is dictated by interior volume...hence even a car as large as a bentley can be called "compact," while a caliber can be called "mid-size"

[GRAMPS SS]

also heard the company that is making the interior parts has money problems....shit does happen...

[Yooformula]

It's not GM that's the problem.

you dont think that if GM put that car out on time like they were supposed to that they wouldnt have been selling a ton BEFORE the economy took a dump? Hell Ford got their redesigned Mustang out as did Dodge but again GM took the slow lost road to the showroom.

[Karps TA]

DOn't take money from the govt and you dont have to worry about it. I don't blame the gov in this at all.

[Al]

Funny that a V6 camaro is better on fuel than a V6 accord despite the accord weighing less and making less power.

[95mustang302]

Its the same old sob story by GM again. You want handouts, you better damn well be prepared for the fine print. This is a perfect example of TINSTAFL. I agree with the others about gm going under but I just think they should file for chap 11 so they can oust the shitty management that got them all into this freaking fiasco...

[Yooformula]

DOn't take money from the govt and you dont have to worry about it. I don't blame the gov in this at all.

absofuckinglutely!

[Voodoo Chick]

The so-called "people in charge" at GM really seem to have their heads up their own asses. The management is truly appalling.

[Reverend Cooper]

holy shit just think how hard it will be to get parts and how expensive the cars and parts will be

[Reverend Cooper]

or its just a ploy to get everyone running to get one to boost sales

[Exitspeed]

This GM bashing is hilarious.

Funny how you don't hear the media talking about the bailouts that Honda, Toyota, Mazda have all asked the Japanese governments for.

You also don't hear the media talk about that fat that GM builds some of the best cars in their class and ins some classes THE best. The media is painting GM as this company that is ran by a bunch of down syndrome losers that doesn't have a single product to sell.

Fact of the matter is the economy is just as much to blame for GM's current woo's then the management. If people were buying vehicles there wouldn't be a problem.

NEWSFLASH PEOPLE AREN'T BUYING TOYOTA'S AND HONDA'S OR ANY OTHER CARS RIGHT NOW AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

[Prince Valiant]

This GM bashing is hilarious.

Funny how you don't hear the media talking about the bailouts that Honda, Toyota, Mazda have all asked the Japanese governments for.

You also don't hear the media talk about that fat that GM builds some of the best cars in their class and ins some classes THE best. The media is painting GM as this company that is ran by a bunch of down syndrome losers that doesn't have a single product to sell.

Fact of the matter is the economy is just as much to blame for GM's current woo's then the management. If people were buying vehicles there wouldn't be a problem.

NEWSFLASH PEOPLE AREN'T BUYING TOYOTA'S AND HONDA'S OR ANY OTHER CARS RIGHT NOW AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM.But while they are asking for bailouts, it's not due to either running out of money and having no credit. That's GM's problem.

[Reverend Cooper]

^ exactly,I work at a Toyota dealer and our sales are steadily increasing from January. Japanese bailout money is not for sustaining operations like it is for GM. Thats a huge difference. You may want to read some more factual info. first.

[Exitspeed]

^ exactly,I work at a Toyota dealer and our sales are steadily increasing from January. Japanese bailout money is not for sustaining operations like it is for GM. Thats a huge difference. You may want to read some more factual info. first.

it's still a bailout from their Gov. The money Toyota is asking for is to go towards loans to American buyers.

Now, lets get to some facts if you want to question my knowledge on the subject.

Maybe YOUR dealer is doing fine, but Toyota is set to post a $3.5 billion (350 billion yen) for the fiscal year ending in March. Oh, but how can this be.

Toyota has even had to offer 0% financing on 11 of it's most popular cars just to move them. Something they would have never had to do when the Camry was "printing money" for them.

Toyota sales were down nearly 40% in Feb, 31% in Jan, and have been down since Jan of 2007.

they don't have an infinite amount of money. Some predict Toyota will actually run out money sooner then anyone imagined.

So call it what you want, a bailout is a bailout. GM isn't the only company struggling right now. And frankly I'm sick of seeing the media and people across the internet bash them while claiming everyone else is doing just fine.

[Voodoo Chick]

NO ONE is doing "fine" right now. The economy overall is just a wreck. Scary sh*t for all companies, not just GM.

[Reverend Cooper]

we never siad they werent doing less than before,they are in no means as bad off as GM.bailout money being used to loan for the purchase of their product is ingenious,it keeps the factories moving and people emplyed thus helping worldwide economy.GM needs the money for day to day operations,so far they are the only company in this type of trouble,again facts is facts.

[Karps TA]

I don't think the article on the Camaro is GM bashing other then the fact that they signed an agreement they knew they didn't want to comply with. I think that's pretty damn stupid to ask for money and sign your name on the dotted line when one of your biggest vehicle launches won't work within the parameters you're agreeing to.

[GTSLOW]

I saw a wrecked new camaro on a car hauler this morning on my way back to Madison. Looked like it took a front end shot at around 25mph.

[Voodoo Chick]

Well, hopefully things with the economy will get better........I guess we still have that to hope for.

[Reverend Cooper]

most of the money they have recieved is due to their debtors raising interest on loans they want paid,and so they can have liquid money assets if its needed and the economy gets even worse. not like GM that in this article needs the money,and even more money on top of that just for day to day operations. Weather or not you see or agree with it GM is in huge finacial distress way worse than any others.

Toyota, Facing First Loss in 59 Years, Seeks Loans From Japan
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By Tetsuya Komatsu and Naoko Fujimura

March 3 (Bloomberg) -- Toyota Motor Corp., forecasting its first loss in 59 years, is seeking loans from the Japanese government as private investors demand up to 50 percent more in interest for the company’s debt.

The company’s financial unit may ask for 200 billion yen ($2 billion) in loans, public broadcaster NHK reported today, without citing anyone. Toyota Financial Services Corp. spokesman Toshiaki Kawai said the unit is in talks with state-owned Japan Bank for International Cooperation, without confirming the amount.

The carmaker expects a net loss of 350 billion yen after vehicle sales in the U.S., traditionally Toyota’s most profitable market, plunged 31 percent last quarter. Incoming President Akio Toyoda is adding to the company’s reserves as the global recession also forces General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC to get bailouts from the U.S. government.

“Toyota should take advantage of anything it can to get through this crisis,” said Hitoshi Yamamoto, chief executive officer of Tokyo-based Fortis Asset Management Japan Co., which manages $5.5 billion in Japanese equities. “Money is not flowing in the capital markets.”

Automakers usually raise funds through bonds and loans for their financial companies to offer loans for their customers. The government aid would mostly be used to help offer loans to customers in North America, Toyota Financial’s Kawai said.

Toyota sold 80 billion yen in 10-year bonds priced to yield 2.012 percent last month. That compares with 150 billion yen of 10-year bonds sold in August 2002, priced to yield 1.337 percent.

Laying Up Cash

“Toyota is trying to lay up as much cash as it can to protect itself in a worst case scenario,” said Yasuhiro Matsumoto, a senior analyst at Shinsei Securities Co. in Tokyo. “The government loans, combined with the bond sale, show how much Toyota fears the global financial crisis.”

Japan will use some of its foreign-exchange reserves to lend to the state-owned corporation that gives financing to Japanese companies operating abroad, Japanese Finance Minister Kaoru Yosano said today.

Toyota follows other carmakers seeking government help as sales plunge worldwide. GM has received $13.4 billion in U.S. aid and is seeking more to keep its operations in its home market running through this month. France granted PSA Peugeot Citroen and Renault SA a total of 6 billion euros in five-year loans last month. In the U.K., carmakers are seeking support for their finance units from the Bank of England. Mitsubishi Motors Corp. has gotten subsidies from Japan’s Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare to help pay wages, as it cuts domestic production.

Slashing Production

Toyota, the maker of the Corolla compact, may slash production 12 percent next fiscal year, it said yesterday. Toyota’s sales in Japan plunged 32 percent last month. In the U.S., sales also dropped 32 percent in January. Worldwide vehicles sales may fall 14 percent to 55 million units in 2009, according to Nissan Chief Executive Carlos Ghosn.

In response, automakers are shutting factories and cutting jobs. Toyota plans to halve the number of contract workers in Japan to 3,000 by March 31. GM last month said it is cutting another 47,000 jobs globally, as it reported a $30.9 billion annual loss. Volkswagen AG, Europe’s largest carmaker, on Feb. 28 said it will cut all 16,500 temporary jobs globally and shuttered five factories in Germany last week.

The Toyota City, Japan-based company has 2.34 trillion yen in loans and bonds maturing this year, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. The company had 2.3 trillion yen in cash reserves as of Dec. 31.

The extra yield over government debt of similar maturity that investors demand to own Toyota’s 1.22 percent bond due 2011 has more than doubled to 56.75 basis points as of yesterday from September according to data compiled by Bloomberg.

Toyota fell 0.3 percent to 3,060 yen, at the close of trading in Tokyo. The shares have risen 5.3 percent this year compared with a 19 percent drop in the benchmark Nikkei 225 Stock Average.

To contact the reporter on this story: Tetsuya Komatsu in Tokyo at tekomatsu@bloomberg.net; Naoko Fujimura in Tokyo at nfujimura@bloomberg.net.

Last Updated: March 3, 2009 04:08 EST

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[Reverend Cooper]

I don't think the article on the Camaro is GM bashing other then the fact that they signed an agreement they knew they didn't want to comply with. I think that's pretty damn stupid to ask for money and sign your name on the dotted line when one of your biggest vehicle launches won't work within the parameters you're agreeing to.

agreed seems pretty stupid to take money you need,disregard the circumstances surrounding it,than want more money for day to day operations just to give some back in fines makes no sense at all

[Prince Valiant]

So call it what you want, a bailout is a bailout. GM isn't the only company struggling right now. And frankly I'm sick of seeing the media and people across the internet bash them while claiming everyone else is doing just fine.No, Honda and Toyota can avoid bankruptcy if Japan says "No" to their requests. If Japan says "Yes," then it's without a doubt that Both Honda and Toyota will be in a position to pay them back...as they actually have the cash right now to continue operations, but wish to preserve capital.

With both being in pretty much the same situation, I'd be reluctant to call that a "bailout," since they wouldn't sink if denied the loan.

Whereas GM would have to file chapter 11 if they didn't receive the loans from the gov't....they would "sink", hence the term "bailout." Funny how the english language works like that.

I mean, you cannot liken Toyota nor Honda's situation to that of GM's...while both their sales are down, GM is teetering. You point out Toyota's losses; juxtapose the 3.5 billion Toyota will lose to the some 30 billion GM lost. Then compare the previous years bottom lines in which GM lost some 39 billion to Toyota's 37 billion dollar gain (That's a staggering 76 billion dollars difference b/w their bottom lines!). While GM literally is running on fumes, Toyota has nearly 96 billion dollars cash on hand. Each of these companies competed in the same economic climate, yet Toyota is in shape to weather the storm, while GM had been taking on water before the storms hit.

Compared to GM 17.4 billion that they received (and no telling how much they'll ultimately end up needing), Toyota is asking for only 2 Billion. You point out Honda? They're asking for only a 100 million to help US customers finance Honda cars.

but my guess is you'll continue to believe "a bailout is a bailout," with nothing -including facts- to dissuade you from the folly of your thinking.

[Rocket Power]

What? Ya mean you wouldn't want a 2-ton Camaro???? :stare :rolf
May as well buy a G8 then:rolf

[Exitspeed]

Sorry guys. i get a little riled up when this subject comes up.

You must admit the media does point out how bad GM is doing but really stays away from the Import brands. I'm not a fan of the biasness. Basically anti-American.

I do actually want GM to go into Bankruptcy because I think they can come out a more lean and fit company then they can any other way.

[Exitspeed]

Told'ya.

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/04/01/gms-rwd-architecture-will-downsize-and-survive/

They didn't come out and say Alpha platform, but it's pretty obvious that's the solution.