Need head gaskets done on my 4.6 DOHC:

[Keyser Zosig]

I was wondering if anyone knew of a shop or someone reputable that does work on mod motors. Its looking like I will need head gaskets on my 98 Cobra, thats not something I am willing to tackle.

Just looking for someone with good references thats reasonable and does'nt mind helping out a fellow car guy.

Thanks in advance folks,

T

[MurphysLaw88GT]

I am sorry

[PureSound15]

Bump for the newb. I know a lot of your guys can do this.

[1320PNY]

...and thus the Trifecta of Modular Modifications:

1.) Fast, Good and Expensive
2.) Slow, Good and Reasonable
3.) Fast, Not so Good and Reasonable

I always go with option #1 after March 1st.

C&M "Marv" is the only one I can think of because I haven't heavily modded my 4.6 yet. I have had several friends have work done and C&M is the only one that was straight forward.

Make sure you realize the difference between price and cost:
"It aint cheap if you have to have it redone by someone qualified."
"Nobody wants to do a good job with your eBay parts."

All that said, there are plenty of people on here with trucks and trailers, lifts, space, tools, knowledge, etc. I can only offer my physical presence and minor tools. My suggestion is to figure out what you can afford and then if it isn't as simple as dropping it off at a qualified shop, try bartering with someone who has a strip only toy. Those guys will think your job is simple and are always in need of cash.

[70 cutlass 442]

A Buddy and I can do it at our shop in waukesha/ mukwonago area. He would be doing most the work as hes a laid off tech at amato ford. Shoot me a call, 262-385-0894 Marv is decent, but you will wait a long as time to get your car back if you go that route.... and we will be much more competitive on price :thumbsup

PS. If you would like a list of referances, i can get you in touch with a few other board members that ive done work for in the past.

[Reverend Cooper]

no offense but for anyone to call another tech that has his OWN reputable shop and dyno decent is kinda funny. In this line of work you get what you pay for plain and simple.If you want someone that will put it together fast and cheap be prepared.If you want it done right take it to someone that does it all day everyday.
C&M has my vote,but hey what do I know 1-262-993-6605

[Breecher_7]

I wouldnt take a car to a performance shop such as C&M for a headgasket.... Granted I dont know what his labor rate is but id assume it would be higher then a normal mechanic.

Head gaskets are not rocket science. If you can operate a torque wrench, you can change a head gasket...

Contact Seth, BadCutt, he is always looking for side jobs and does great work.

[70 cutlass 442]

/\/\ you do get what you pay for.... but lets break it down.

our building is paid for 100%
our monthly overhead is $175 which includes heat/elec/high speed internet.

my overhead is far less then just about ANY shop in the area which is why i charge almost half of what many other places do. marves cars speak for them selfs, as do mine :)

[Breecher_7]

/\/\ you do get what you pay for.... but lets break it down.

our building is paid for 100%
our monthly overhead is $175 which includes heat/elec/high speed internet.

my overhead is far less then just about ANY shop in the area which is why i charge almost half of what many other places do. marves cars speak for them selfs, as do mine :)

Does this "shop" have a name? Or is it just a place you mess with your own shit?

[70 cutlass 442]

its our own place. kinda like seths place.

[Breecher_7]

Seth doesnt have a place, he has a garage at his house.... :rolf I dont think he refers to it as a "shop" either...

[lit666]

John (70 cutlass 442) does good work and I would let him work on my cars.

[Reverend Cooper]

just hope that side shop,or sid jobber stands behind his work when it fails,Marv does.

[70 cutlass 442]

ahh, well i dont know what the major difference is between a shop and a garage... I guess to get technical, this is a detached, two story structure about 1,200' Sq in the lower level alone. two complete tool boxes fully stocked, and what good are tools if you can use them right!? while that is where the ford mechanic comes into play... oh did i mention that everyone that has remotely anything to do with this shop owns a 94-99 mustang? as i stated, my customer base speaks for itself. Marve does good work, but i can do the same thing with the exact same quality much closer to home

[Breecher_7]

So I ask again, is this an actual registered and insured business or just a side job operation?

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

Unbelievable.

[70 cutlass 442]

So I ask again, is this an actual registered and insured business or just a side job operation?

side job operation, just like seth as previously stated.

[Breecher_7]

side job operation, just like seth as previously stated.

Thats all I wanted to know. :thumbsup

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

That 4 cam has to suck to do in the car when I mess with mine it will be on a stand.

[70 cutlass 442]

That 4 cam has to suck to do in the car when I mess with mine it will be on a stand.

it is doable, but ALOT has to come out. book time is almost 20 hours :wooo then it gets pricey when you start adding things like new timing chain and guides, gaskets, ect. thats why we try to save on labor as a smaller operation. weve used Marve for tuning on our 96 GT, the 04 cobra, and soon to be the 97 turboed 3.8 hard top that is just about done.

[1320PNY]

That 4 cam has to suck to do in the car when I mess with mine it will be on a stand.


OK, sidebar: I don't mean to jack up this thread, but what motor are we talking about. I was under the assumption the 4.6L DOHC was a 2V, 3V, or 4V motor with two camshafts? So is there a Ford motor that has twin cams on each cylinder bank? Someone PM me if I'm a dipshit.

[RanJer]

OK, sidebar: I don't mean to jack up this thread, but what motor are we talking about. I was under the assumption the 4.6L DOHC was a 2V, 3V, or 4V motor with two camshafts? So is there a Ford motor that has twin cams on each cylinder bank? Someone PM me if I'm a dipshit.

The 4.6 DOHC is Dual Over Head Cam per cylinder bank. (4 cam)

The 4.6 SOHC (GTs/Crown Vics/etc) is Single Over Head Cam per cylinder bank. (2 cam)

2V and 3V's are SOHC, 4V's are DOHC.

[1320PNY]

Ok, thanks. I guess I was confused at the whole SOHC having two cams, but makes sense that there's at least 1 cam per valve bank. It's been a long day!

[Keyser Zosig]

Thanks guys for the replys, it looks as though my brother is consulting a friend of his thats big into mod motors to come do an inspection for me to fully diagnose what I am looking at.

I would assume that I diagnosed this correct, as the oil was milky brown last season when I pulled it out of storage and the coolant level was slightly down. I changed it and drove on it for a while checking it regularly and it held up so I thought maybe it was just moisture from sitting (indoors in a insulated garage).

However last week I took a glance under the hood and saw yet again the oil was milky brown and the coolant was down. Its staying in storage till the salt is off the roads, so I have a couple weeks yet before I would transport it to a shop.

Tearing a 4 cam down is going to be quite an ordeal, and I am contemplating what else I should get done while its apart (cams, head work, clutch if the motor comes out). I will start with a thorough inspection, but if it looks like my assumptions are correct than I am going to want this done right away.

This is my cherry summer vert daily driver, so quality over timely work.

Thanks again guys, will post what my inspection reveals when I find out.

[RanJer]

If you're gonna tear her down... might as well build her up... (if cash allows) :thumbsup

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

Ford calls the 4 cam a DOHC, GM calls a 4 cam a TWIN DUAL CAM wtf.

[1320PNY]

Exactly. I used to be a GM guy, this is my first Ford.

[Car Guy]

Ford calls the 4 cam a DOHC, GM calls a 4 cam a TWIN DUAL CAM wtf.

Ford refers to it for each head and GM is for the engine as a whole, I'm thinking it has to do with how their engines 'evolved'.....:)

[Reverend Cooper]

Thanks guys for the replys, it looks as though my brother is consulting a friend of his thats big into mod motors to come do an inspection for me to fully diagnose what I am looking at.

I would assume that I diagnosed this correct, as the oil was milky brown last season when I pulled it out of storage and the coolant level was slightly down. I changed it and drove on it for a while checking it regularly and it held up so I thought maybe it was just moisture from sitting (indoors in a insulated garage).

However last week I took a glance under the hood and saw yet again the oil was milky brown and the coolant was down. Its staying in storage till the salt is off the roads, so I have a couple weeks yet before I would transport it to a shop.

Tearing a 4 cam down is going to be quite an ordeal, and I am contemplating what else I should get done while its apart (cams, head work, clutch if the motor comes out). I will start with a thorough inspection, but if it looks like my assumptions are correct than I am going to want this done right away.

This is my cherry summer vert daily driver, so quality over timely work.

Thanks again guys, will post what my inspection reveals when I find out.

the side job guys in here should tell you to drain the oil and coolant,leaving the mix in it is bad news even if just sitting.

[Sprayaway Fox]

Throw some auto shop sealtabs (brown fiber circles) in it and call it a day. Sounds like your SOL.

[70 cutlass 442]

the side job guys in here should tell you to drain the oil and coolant,leaving the mix in it is bad news even if just sitting.

Ok, well since i am one of the side job guys.....

Here is what you should have done last year when you had this issue.... drain the oil immidatley, do the HG, run fresh oil though it, then do another oil change........ but to be honest with you. the car has sit this long already and any damage that could have been caused by having antifreeze mixed with the oil was probably already done if there was any damage even done. Unfortunatley, you let it sit almost all winter so even draining it 2 weeks ago would probably not have cahanged anything... I personally would have had that motor tore apart within in 2 days after i noticed the headgasket was bad, but i realize not everyone has thoes kind of resources.... that being said..... its probably not worth freezing your ass off to draing the oil out of the pan at this point anyways.... i mean what good will it do? the residual oil that is left between the rod and main journals will still be there weather or not there is oil in the pan....... unless of course the 4.6 bottom end was modled after a briggs and stratton where they have a need to submerge part of the rod to sling oil everywhere (sarcasim) but what would i know? im just a side jobber

[Reverend Cooper]

well maybe as a side jobber you should tell him that the poss. of crank and rod bearing damage is there now,not just take it apart on a budget like he obviously has then drop the bomb when its in pieces.Not to mention the poss. issue of head and or block pitting. JMHO Reputable business tell there customers this to avoid headaches,on the business' part and the consumers part. again JMHO

[Breecher_7]

well maybe as a side jobber you should tell him that the poss. of crank and rod bearing damage is there now,not just take it apart on a budget like he obviously has then drop the bomb when its in pieces.Not to mention the poss. issue of head and or block pitting. JMHO Reputable business tell there customers this to avoid headaches,on the business' part and the consumers part. again JMHO

Technically the heads should be checked for straightness and so should the block deck.... Bad head gasket could have been caused by alot of things. This argument is just getting deeper and deeper... To be 100% sure you have found all possible damage, the engine has to come out. Period. But how many people are willing to go through that? Most will just slap new gaskets on it and hope it holds. Even the most reputable shop is not going to guarantee a set of head gaskets if they replace them unless the block and heads are checked a minimum... They cant. Because they could just leak or blow out again for reasons out of there control that had nothing to do with there repair job.

[Reverend Cooper]

most reputable shops have a straight edge to check straightness of the headgasket,if they know what to look for they can see on the gasket why or where it failed. Im not arguing at all about what or why they failed,my point is advise YOUR customer what they maybe getting into besides just gaskets.

[Breecher_7]

most reputable shops have a straight edge to check straightness of the headgasket,if they know what to look for they can see on the gasket why or where it failed. Im not arguing at all about what or why they failed,my point is advise YOUR customer what they maybe getting into besides just gaskets.

We defnitily agree here....

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

Piss on it, junk it. Cars all shot. :punch:

[Keyser Zosig]

Hmm, maybe its time to trade the old 98 in on a terminator. What kind of damage does coolant in oil really do? I mean in everyone's opinion is it worth ripping apart if the lower end has been subject to this on two occasions?

Love my car and all, but my dad said it best "you can't polish a turd". I sure as hell don't want to be rebuilding this thing anytime soon, the car has 50K on it. Will see what happens when I get it inspected, but nonetheless the oil has been milky both times I went to change it coming out of storage.

[70 cutlass 442]

Hmm, maybe its time to trade the old 98 in on a terminator. What kind of damage does coolant in oil really do? I mean in everyone's opinion is it worth ripping apart if the lower end has been subject to this on two occasions?

Love my car and all, but my dad said it best "you can't polish a turd". I sure as hell don't want to be rebuilding this thing anytime soon, the car has 50K on it. Will see what happens when I get it inspected, but nonetheless the oil has been milky both times I went to change it coming out of storage.

well before other board members scare you into selling your car i will explain as mush as i can....

First things first..... You need to find out WHY the head gasket went, if there were many miles on the car, then there is a chance that they could just have gone because of high millage.... if that is not the case you need to check things out..... was the car ever severley over heated? If so that can warp heads easily and cause the fire ring to become weak and therefore allow coolant to pass into the motor. Im assuming there was no boost on this car but if there was we would have to look at other things along that line... The DOHC heads had smaller combustion chambers then the normal 2v heads of that year which ups the compression which in turn means you would need to run a better fuel Ie. 92 octane, could you have ran really poor fuel thorgh it and caused detonation? the knock sensor would have picked that up and should have adjusted timing properly but did that for sure happen? and as for checking for straight ness.... well every head that i do is resurfaced regardless so that takes the guess work out of that. then the block is checked which with a aluminium head, you RARELY see any damage to the block when a HG goes, I clean the surface to abre metal, runs a straight edge and feeler gauge over it and check for any warpage... on a deck anyhting within a couple thousanths is usualy ok. OEM specs on some motors are up to .005, but I think its safe to say your block is fine, non the less, I check that once the heads are off and deck surface is cleaned up.


As for Coolant in the oil.... on all the rod, main, and cam bearigns, there is a coating that is applied over the copper to eliminate friction. the coolant will eat that coating off and cause premature bearing failure. Its hard to tell as many motors are saved in time to prevent this damage, but you could pull the motor if it makes you sleep better, otherwise you may be able ot lower the K and sneak the pan out and pop a rod cap off and check for bearing failure.

Beleive me, I advise anyone who has this issue as far as the possibilities of bottom end issues, I did a pair of HGs on a Intrepid for a board member here and we did talk in depth about the bottem end.

how about some more info on the car... has its been boosted? any spray? any check engine lights on? did you notice if the oil read abnormally high on the dipstick? (would indicate how bad of a HG leak there is)

[70 cutlass 442]

well maybe as a side jobber you should tell him that the poss. of crank and rod bearing damage is there now,not just take it apart on a budget like he obviously has then drop the bomb when its in pieces.Not to mention the poss. issue of head and or block pitting. JMHO Reputable business tell there customers this to avoid headaches,on the business' part and the consumers part. again JMHO


most reputable shops have a straight edge to check straightness of the headgasket,if they know what to look for they can see on the gasket why or where it failed. Im not arguing at all about what or why they failed,my point is advise YOUR customer what they maybe getting into besides just gaskets.


That is why i listed a phone number in my first response, to discuss all the options and possibilities.... And looking at a HG WILL NOT tell you why it failed, it will simpaly show you wehere it failed, and for roughly how long the fire ring has been damaged.

[Keyser Zosig]

My svt is a 50K mile car thats completely stock. I never ran boost or excessively even drove the car hard (thats what my Z is for). I kept this car stock to have a civil weekend convertable to commute and go on vacation with and hardly ever even wound it up. Never had any check engine lights, nor has it overheated in my possesion. I maybe put 5K miles on the car since I bought it.

Never noticed the oil level go noticably high on the dipstick, which makes me wonder what I am dealing with now. The only time the oil got milky was when the car sat for a long period of time. Always been a garaged car in my possession, sits right next to my Z in a dry atmosphere all winter.

Unfortunately I have no way of tracking the history of the car. Other than changing the spark plugs back to factory style, I haven't messed with this thing.

I will drop the oil the next chance I get, see how milky it is and check on how much coolant is missing.

If I end up needing to do the hg's, might as well pull the engine and check the lower end. I hate to half ass anything, cutting corners isn't my way. I know the clutch is aged and could probably use a replacement (IMO), so I might want to throw that onto the pile.

This is how it starts, before you know it I am camming it and building a terminator lower end for it (getting bored with a stock car anyways).

[Reverend Cooper]

That is why i listed a phone number in my first response, to discuss all the options and possibilities.... And looking at a HG WILL NOT tell you why it failed, it will simpaly show you wehere it failed, and for roughly how long the fire ring has been damaged.

if your truly believeing inspecting the damage to a headgasket wont tell you how or point you in the direction of what caused the failure,all I can say is work on your own stuff. NOT MINE

[70 cutlass 442]

Could you please enlighten us and inform the rest of the forum as to what a HG will look like after it fails? and from what?

Just because your mechanic tells you everything you want to hear doesnt always mean its true.

[70 cutlass 442]

My svt is a 50K mile car thats completely stock. I never ran boost or excessively even drove the car hard (thats what my Z is for). I kept this car stock to have a civil weekend convertable to commute and go on vacation with and hardly ever even wound it up. Never had any check engine lights, nor has it overheated in my possesion. I maybe put 5K miles on the car since I bought it.

Never noticed the oil level go noticably high on the dipstick, which makes me wonder what I am dealing with now. The only time the oil got milky was when the car sat for a long period of time. Always been a garaged car in my possession, sits right next to my Z in a dry atmosphere all winter.

Unfortunately I have no way of tracking the history of the car. Other than changing the spark plugs back to factory style, I haven't messed with this thing.

I will drop the oil the next chance I get, see how milky it is and check on how much coolant is missing.

If I end up needing to do the hg's, might as well pull the engine and check the lower end. I hate to half ass anything, cutting corners isn't my way. I know the clutch is aged and could probably use a replacement (IMO), so I might want to throw that onto the pile.

This is how it starts, before you know it I am camming it and building a terminator lower end for it (getting bored with a stock car anyways).


how did the car run before you noticed the head gasket was bad? and do you recall over heating it for any reason or having any issues along that line?

[Reverend Cooper]

Could you please enlighten us and inform the rest of the forum as to what a HG will look like after it fails? and from what?

Just because your mechanic tells you everything you want to hear doesnt always mean its true.

i am usually my mechanic,Marv has been the man for the new car. I used to work on them for a living and still work at a major dealership. headgasket failures can take on many faces. detonation can cause the fire ring to fail,which can distort or melt threw the comp. ring,not to mention you can usually see if and where it failed to the coolant port.if it has failed to the coolant port from a overheat one could deduce from the driver telling you or from checking the heads and or block for warping,amongst many other ways a headgasket can show you or point you in the right direction. if you need me to explain this again im glad your working on your stuff not mine.

[70 cutlass 442]

So you basically re-irrated what i had already said, that being that it will point you to where it failed, not necessailry why....

So lets say the car was over heated... how would that gasket differ from one that had lets say detonation caused from pre-ignition? Now im asking about the gasket, not the head warpage that may or may not have occured from having to much heat put into it.

[70 cutlass 442]

Also, this car obviosuly sits for most of the year as it only has 50K on it, is there a chance that it could be moisture that has accumulated in the pan just form storage?

[Reverend Cooper]

Thanks guys for the replys, it looks as though my brother is consulting a friend of his thats big into mod motors to come do an inspection for me to fully diagnose what I am looking at.

I would assume that I diagnosed this correct, as the oil was milky brown last season when I pulled it out of storage and the coolant level was slightly down. I changed it and drove on it for a while checking it regularly and it held up so I thought maybe it was just moisture from sitting (indoors in a insulated garage).

However last week I took a glance under the hood and saw yet again the oil was milky brown and the coolant was down. Its staying in storage till the salt is off the roads, so I have a couple weeks yet before I would transport it to a shop.

Tearing a 4 cam down is going to be quite an ordeal, and I am contemplating what else I should get done while its apart (cams, head work, clutch if the motor comes out). I will start with a thorough inspection, but if it looks like my assumptions are correct than I am going to want this done right away.

This is my cherry summer vert daily driver, so quality over timely work.

Thanks again guys, will post what my inspection reveals when I find out.

looks to me like he answers your question of sitting here. part of diagnosing is listening to the customer. also re read my posts about the headgaskets,i said it will either show why the gasket itself failed,or point in the direction of failure. a melted fire ring between two cylinders or such may be a lean issue if the gasket has sepereated fro oil to coolan or comb. chamber it would indicate poss.head movement from warm up or cool down or just a plain and simple gasket failure.

[Coops Brother]

Ford calls the 4 cam a DOHC, GM calls a 4 cam a TWIN DUAL CAM wtf.

GM calls their 4 cyl's DOHC, so a v-8 would be twin DOHC. Ford's terminology probably originates from the venerable 427 DOHC, and it just stuck. No matter what they call it, as long you know what you have is all that matters.

[Coops Brother]

My svt is a 50K mile car thats completely stock. I never ran boost or excessively even drove the car hard (thats what my Z is for). I kept this car stock to have a civil weekend convertable to commute and go on vacation with and hardly ever even wound it up. Never had any check engine lights, nor has it overheated in my possesion. I maybe put 5K miles on the car since I bought it.

Never noticed the oil level go noticably high on the dipstick, which makes me wonder what I am dealing with now. The only time the oil got milky was when the car sat for a long period of time. Always been a garaged car in my possession, sits right next to my Z in a dry atmosphere all winter.

Unfortunately I have no way of tracking the history of the car. Other than changing the spark plugs back to factory style, I haven't messed with this thing.

I will drop the oil the next chance I get, see how milky it is and check on how much coolant is missing.

If I end up needing to do the hg's, might as well pull the engine and check the lower end. I hate to half ass anything, cutting corners isn't my way. I know the clutch is aged and could probably use a replacement (IMO), so I might want to throw that onto the pile.

This is how it starts, before you know it I am camming it and building a terminator lower end for it (getting bored with a stock car anyways).

You should drive it to someone that either has an exhaust gas detector kit, and have them check for the presenced of exhaust gasses in the coolant, this is very simple, and not too expensive. Or, have someone do a cylinder leakdown test a look for bubbles in the radiator, this is labor intensive, and expensive. The gas check is the fastest and easiest way to determine headgasket failure. HOWEVER....coolant can enter the oil from many different places other than the head gaskets, so just because you don't uncover a headgasket leak doesn't mean there isn't coolant getting in the oil causing it to be milky. IF you haven't yet changed the milky oil, AND the car has sat for a week or better without being run...pull the drain plug out a bit and drain a cup of oil into a clear plastic or glass jar, coolant is heavier than oil and if there is any coolant in the oil it will be in your sample. If there is no coolant in your sample and you car has not been started for at least a week, then I would say, change it and drive it. Keep an eye on it over the summer and change the oil before you put it away for the winter.....oh yeah, continuious starting your car over the winter for 5 min and shutting it off WILL make your oil milky, just leave it be, put a battery tender on it if you're worried about it going dead.

Brian

[70 cutlass 442]

looks to me like he answers your question of sitting here. part of diagnosing is listening to the customer. also re read my posts about the headgaskets,i said it will either show why the gasket itself failed,or point in the direction of failure. a melted fire ring between two cylinders or such may be a lean issue if the gasket has sepereated fro oil to coolan or comb. chamber it would indicate poss.head movement from warm up or cool down or just a plain and simple gasket failure.

in just about any case the fire ring will blow out. the head gets hot, warps, which now causes the crush on the fire ring to be uneven or non existang in some places which will blow the fire ring out..... detonation will blow the fire ring out. obviously we dont have to worry about extremely high cyl pressure form boost or spray but in that case it would also do the exact same thing to the fire ring..... What i was getting at with the "are you sure its not moisture from sitting" was did he do a compresison and leak down test? Either way, its not worth arguing with you, you obviously know more which is why you work on other peoples cars but for some resons dont work on your own :durr

[Poncho]

jesus ******* christ guys, help the ******* guy out, instead of thumping your chests about how much misc. bullshit you know. Seriously, it's stupid and petty.

[70 cutlass 442]

/\/\ what else do you want us to do? a leakdown and compression check was already reccomended.... shot of going over there and helping diagnose or work on it for the guy there isnt much you can do at this point........

[Poncho]

no no no... I just meant like seems like coop is attacking you, then you defend.. then coop attacks you again, then you defend. it's just counter productive. Thats all. Don't take any offense :-)

[70 cutlass 442]

haha, gotcha!

[Breecher_7]

no no no... I just meant like seems like coop is attacking you, then you defend.. then coop attacks you again, then you defend. it's just counter productive. Thats all. Don't take any offense :-)

Thats how things work around here, havent you figured that out yet? :stare

[Poncho]

I have seen the light, my friend.

[Keyser Zosig]

Thanks guys, I will drop the oil probably tommorow and check a portion of it for the presence of coolant like Coops brother recommends. If it is just moisture, then halaluja, but I seriously doubt it as my Z never had even the slightest bit of moistue accumulation in the oil and it sits in the same garage (for the last 6 years).

But for sure the car has never overheated, always ran very strong at a consistant operating temperature. No mis-fires, any kind of exhaust smoke, or odor of coolant ever detected since I have owned the car.

Still waiting on my brothers buddy to get back to me on an inspection time, till then I will just drop the oil like you guys recommended.

Thanks 4 all the helpful tech advice, BCM rules!

[Reverend Cooper]

no no no... I just meant like seems like coop is attacking you, then you defend.. then coop attacks you again, then you defend. it's just counter productive. Thats all. Don't take any offense :-)

really? I was just stating my opinion much like he was,I work on plenty of my own stuff i have other vehicles,but as far as my hotrod I can afford and have the luxury of having Marv do my work,this frees me up to do other things in life or with the car I would like to do. If that means I don't know what I'm talking about so be it.
Marv is decent you say,but then go on to basically say he is to expensive,takes to long blah blah blah,but yet youtake your cars to him to tune them what ever I give up. It's not my car I guess in the realm of things I could give to shits who you take it to. Take it to the cheapest person you can and hopefully it turns out perfect.

[Reverend Cooper]

Thats how things work around here, havent you figured that out yet? :stare

pot meet kettle,someday Dan will see the light with you also, no one here knows anything about anything here but you just ask you. Dan if your low on friends due to your situation this is not the route to take,if you aren't and you just like him great I guess everyone makes mistakes. Really I and just about every other person in this board is ******* sick of your dumbass,as another said if you left no one would care. You being the spokes person for a shop trying to regain its name after the Forrest debacle is a joke.
Do not bother sending me your bullshit p.m's anymore either as I'm done responding to them.

[Breecher_7]

pot meet kettle,someday Dan will see the light with you also, no one here knows anything about anything here but you just ask you. Dan if your low on friends due to your situation this is not the route to take,if you aren't and you just like him great I guess everyone makes mistakes. Really I and just about every other person in this board is ******* sick of your dumbass,as another said if you left no one would care. You being the spokes person for a shop trying to regain its name after the Forrest debacle is a joke.
Do not bother sending me your bullshit p.m's anymore either as I'm done responding to them.

This was posted before I sent you that PM mike...

[70 cutlass 442]

Marv is decent you say,but then go on to basically say he is to expensive,takes to long blah blah blah,but yet youtake your cars to him to tune them what ever I give up. It's not my car I guess in the realm of things I could give to shits who you take it to. Take it to the cheapest person you can and hopefully it turns out perfect.

im sorry, maybe someday i will dust off the dyno i have in my basement and start tuning my own shit.:alcoholic I offered a service to a BCMer at a cheaper price because its side work for us. no over head. no payemtns on fancy equipment. and i have faster turn around time then marve. that is the only reason i offered. For you to even suggust that my quality of work is less superior to marves is reckless on on your end, especially as you have never had anything ever worked on by us. As stated, I can funrish user names to everyone that has had work done by me and they can hear it from one of my HAPPY customers first hand. I will not get into a bidding war or pissing match over a job, but i sure the hell will defend my work..... that being said, feel free to give marve all the free plugs you want. he does good tuning work, hence the reason our cars have been on the dyno there. but just becuase you pay $80 an hour doesnt mean that a shop that charges $45 an hour will do worse work (in our case) I guess moral of the story is i will charge more for every job just to say "you get what you pay for" and provide a false sence of security to my customers then :durr

[Reverend Cooper]

sounds good,seems as tho you have changed your tune abit about marv,in your original post it seemed that you were denoting him except for tuning,if this is not the case i apologize,but in your last post it still seems as tho your saying he doesnt do good work only good tuning or am i incorrect?

[BAD LS1]

im sorry, maybe someday i will dust off the dyno i have in my basement and start tuning my own shit.:alcoholic I offered a service to a BCMer at a cheaper price because its side work for us. no over head. no payemtns on fancy equipment. and i have faster turn around time then marve. that is the only reason i offered. For you to even suggust that my quality of work is less superior to marves is reckless on on your end, especially as you have never had anything ever worked on by us. As stated, I can funrish user names to everyone that has had work done by me and they can hear it from one of my HAPPY customers first hand. I will not get into a bidding war or pissing match over a job, but i sure the hell will defend my work..... that being said, feel free to give marve all the free plugs you want. he does good tuning work, hence the reason our cars have been on the dyno there. but just becuase you pay $80 an hour doesnt mean that a shop that charges $45 an hour will do worse work (in our case) I guess moral of the story is i will charge more for every job just to say "you get what you pay for" and provide a false sence of security to my customers then :durr

Does your side work shop include an "F" word though as part of the team?

[Breecher_7]

Does your side work shop include an "F" word though as part of the team?

:rolf

[Reverend Cooper]

Tell me this guy works with Forrest

[GTSLOW]

Tell me this guy works with Forrest

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=coop+is+a+douche

[70 cutlass 442]

Does your side work shop include an "F" word though as part of the team?


no, his new shop is in waukesha.... i am mostly out of mukwonago(used to be in new berlin)... Forrest tuned screamin281s car back in august, im assuming that is what you are reffering to?

[Reverend Cooper]

So to get this clear cuz you didnt really answer the question,you do not and have not ever worked on anything with him at all ever period?

[BAD LS1]

no, his new shop is in waukesha.... i am mostly out of mukwonago(used to be in new berlin)... Forrest tuned screamin281s car back in august, im assuming that is what you are reffering to?

Just clarifying because many knew he started a shop again and heard he had some BCM members as part of his operation, trying to pinpoint which ones... After a 10 min fix on a gorgeous, orange 04' cobra that was by the "new shop" 3 times and the customer was charged each time because it wouldnt idle after a new throttle body, im not convinced much has changed there in the way things are done. Not sure if that screamin 281s car is this one or not?

[MurphysLaw88GT]

if Forrest had anything to do with that car it will not be screamin281 long....soon to be smokin281 or worse blownup281

[70 cutlass 442]

So to get this clear cuz you didnt really answer the question,you do not and have not ever worked on anything with him at all ever period?


Never, the only time i have seen him work on anything is when he tuned the blown 98 gt that I built. which is kind of funny because I called marve on 3 seperate ocasions to tune it before the car went ot forrest and i didnt get a call back until THREE WEEKS AFTER i left my last message.... but to answer your question, i have never worked with forest on anything other then him tuning that car.


Just clarifying because many knew he started a shop again and heard he had some BCM members as part of his operation, trying to pinpoint which ones... After a 10 min fix on a gorgeous, orange 04' cobra that was by the "new shop" 3 times and the customer was charged each time because it wouldnt idle after a new throttle body, im not convinced much has changed there in the way things are done. Not sure if that screamin 281s car is this one or not?

he and two other members are sharing a shop in waukesha, one has since dropped out.... from what i gathered its more of a shop to do personal work out of, i didnt even know he had a terminator in there at any point... Screamin281 (paul) has a black 98 GT that was tuned at WBD in early august. As stated above, forrest was unsure of having the car done by our due date as he was busy, so he said to give Marve a call..... and well, as the story goes forrest tuned it anyways.... I was happy with the work he did on this car, but have also had tunes done by marve and happy as well.


Hope that answeres it all i na nutshell

[Breecher_7]

he and two other members are sharing a shop in waukesha

Names.... :stare :alcoholic

[70 cutlass 442]

I know a guy named kyle was ni thre a couple months... i cant remember his name off the top of my head. and Slow90Z

[1320PNY]

... and i didnt get a call back until THREE WEEKS AFTER i left my last message...

1.) A professional shop that answers the phone and is booked up usually isn't going to sit there and call back all voicemails.

2.) A professional shop that always gets someone else's budget build that "only needs a tune" knows that a shit storm is on its way.

3.) A shop that can do "everything" except tune a car can't do "everything".

I've been to a few shops locally, and got some interesting advice, quotes, work done in the past. I can say that C&M has always been straight forward. Yes I have called to get voicemail, but I never just leave a message. I usually mention my name and my project and when I will call back during the week to allert them of my pending call.

[70 cutlass 442]

1.) A professional shop that answers the phone and is booked up usually isn't going to sit there and call back all voicemails.

2.) A professional shop that always gets someone else's budget build that "only needs a tune" knows that a shit storm is on its way.

3.) A shop that can do "everything" except tune a car can't do "everything".

I've been to a few shops locally, and got some interesting advice, quotes, work done in the past. I can say that C&M has always been straight forward. Yes I have called to get voicemail, but I never just leave a message. I usually mention my name and my project and when I will call back during the week to allert them of my pending call.

1. I leave 3 seperate voice mails.... I had a OBDII that need a tune, and a OBDI that needed a chip burnt.... that right there is good money waiting to be made. and he did return my call..... three weeks later.

2. No budget build here. Everything was the best of the best.... drove the focker up on the trailer and was waiting for a tune.

3. find me a shop that can actually do "everything". can marve cut his own heads, alinge hone a block, magnaflux anything, hot tank anything, I think we already know the answer to that..... I cant do any of that either, but i take a 15 minute ride south and can have heads, flywheel and a few other basic thigns done while i wait..... which eliminates a lot of turn around time. So just because i dont have a $100K machine in my garage doesnt mean that my quality of work is anything less then marves... it just means my labor will be slightly less because im not making payments on that peice of equipment.

[Reverend Cooper]

so what you can do with the heads and block Marv cant do also? he does,1320 makes a good point,when your build with the best of the best poss. explodes on the dyno who's fault will it be? yours? I doubt after what your saying here that will be the case,that said I can understand why he wouldn't call back,well that and your great words about his shop.

[70 cutlass 442]

so what you can do with the heads and block Marv cant do also? he does,1320 makes a good point,when your build with the best of the best poss. explodes on the dyno who's fault will it be? yours? I doubt after what your saying here that will be the case,that said I can understand why he wouldn't call back,well that and your great words about his shop.

the point that im trying to make is just becuase i cant tune out of my place, doesnt mean that the rest of my quality suffers. So your telling me he cuts his own heads and does all of his own block work in house? and if it comes apart on the dyno then you investigate to see what went wrong... it the car had a cheap ebay injector fail then yeah its a parts issue... If you melt the electrodes off of every spark plug and burn a hole though a couple cyls.... then its a tune issue.....

[Reverend Cooper]

NO,I reitterated the fact he also can get that done in town,or send it out just like you.And when that car goes up on the dyno if it were to fail and it was found to be an issue with parts or install MOST persons would still blame the tuner. Don't know he would care to have it be an issue one way or the other.Like most shops I'm quite sure he would rather tune his own projects if poss. because he knows the quality of parts and service.

[70 cutlass 442]

NO,I reitterated the fact he also can get that done in town,or send it out just like you.And when that car goes up on the dyno if it were to fail and it was found to be an issue with parts or install MOST persons would still blame the tuner. Don't know he would care to have it be an issue one way or the other.Like most shops I'm quite sure he would rather tune his own projects if poss. because he knows the quality of parts and service.

I cannot argue that at all. Hes, he would rather be the one doing the car front to back.... But thats where the trust issue comes in and theis is why some shops have a good rep and others do not... WHICH is why with in the first couple responses i made it an option that i would supply and customer or any potential customer with my customer base so they can get a first hand opinion from some one that has already had work done by me.... And I know of cars that marve as done from intake manifold to pan and the car came apart crusing on the freeway.... (04 GT 7 lbs boost, aftercooler) And the car went back to stock on the customers dime...... So standing behind your work after you buy everything from a guy isnt the issue here.

[Reverend Cooper]

So the car in mention blew up because Marv did something wrong and he wouldn't take care of it? I smell bullshit. My car could blow up at cruising on the freeway too and to insinuate it was the builders fault after I had driven hard previously or raced it then it just happens to come apart when cruising thats laughable stop while your behind. Now I can undertand why calls weren't returned.You denote his shop,blame him for a failure because the motor came apart on a car at cruising speeds (car has a blower I'm sure its been babied like mine lol) Then want him to tune your built stuff. I quit this is laughable at best.
Again this is not my car being worked on so I dont care. do want you want

[RanJer]

And I know of cars that marve as done from intake manifold to pan and the car came apart crusing on the freeway....



blame him for a failure because the motor came apart on a car at cruising speeds (car has a blower I'm sure its been babied like mine lol) Then want him to tune your built stuff.

From what I'm reading, Marv didn't tune a previously built car.. Marv built the entire engine, and it came apart. Granted this leaves a lot to how the car was treated, because really, who knows.. But I think that's what 70 Cutlass was getting at..

[70 cutlass 442]

So the car in mention blew up because Marv did something wrong and he wouldn't take care of it? I smell bullshit. My car could blow up at cruising on the freeway too and to insinuate it was the builders fault after I had driven hard previously or raced it then it just happens to come apart when cruising thats laughable stop while your behind. Now I can undertand why calls weren't returned.You denote his shop,blame him for a failure because the motor came apart on a car at cruising speeds (car has a blower I'm sure its been babied like mine lol) Then want him to tune your built stuff. I quit this is laughable at best.
Again this is not my car being worked on so I dont care. do want you want




I needed something tuned before i had any issue with him... i sitll dont have an issue with him and still would have him tune cars that need to be tuned. But what i am getting at is even though every part was purchased from marve, installed by marve, and tuned by marve, he had issues and the motor ended up going back to stock... NOW, I know that JUST ABOUT any shop on earth will not absorb costs if something like this happens, especially on a NON-stock car which is not the issue i have, the issue i have is you implying that he didnt want to tune our cars becuase it may have been a cluster fuck of parts since they wernt purchased from him, which was not the case at all.



From what I'm reading, Marv didn't tune a previously built car.. Marv built the entire engine, and it came apart. Granted this leaves a lot to how the car was treated, because really, who knows.. But I think that's what 70 Cutlass was getting at..


No, the car im reffering to was built/tuned by marve.... the kid drove it like it was built to be drivin, im not throwing any blame at marve, simpaly making a point that even if the parts came from/ were installed by him that he may not have done anythign anyways.

[VroomPshhTsi]

I just came upon this thread and want to share my 2 cents... I've had work done BOTH by Marv and by 70 Cutlass.

Marv seems like a good guy and very knowledgeable. He did gears/shifter/tune for me and I was happy with the results, but I know it was slightly overpriced. He gave me a rough quote and was pretty close to it (the bill was a few hundred higher than expected though). Again, I am happy with the quality of work done, turn around time was decent. I'm not annoyed that he didn't return phone calls very fast, mine took a few days but it's mostly just him there answering when he's not under a car so can't blame him. With that said, I know of someone with a 97 cobra with a blower on it and almost 100% of the work was done by Marv (most engine and all tranny). The tranny had issues and he had a couple other problems with the car, had to bring it in numerous times. Idk what Marv charged to fix it, if anything at all. So basically I'm saying yes, Marv isn't perfect and since he runs a professional shop, is kind of expensive. But from my first hand experience, it was good work. Yes some things he works on will break/fall apart but with the volume of customers, I guess it is bound to happen.

As far as 70 Cutlass, he did a nice side job for me. Everything went well, returned my calls, happy to help with any problems, etc. I saved a bunch of money by going through him. No he doesn't have a professional shop, but for smaller jobs and cheaper prices (job quality was good too) I'd go back to him again.

[1320PNY]

I love how people quote me, but never read my post.


If you want to grow your business, do ONE simple thing...be straight forward with anyone whom you communicate.

When a MAN stands in front of another MAN with hard earned cash and a desired outcome, the lowest expectation of either man is no bullshit.

Get pissed at me if you want, but life is too short to spend money for bullshit and excuses.

[Keyser Zosig]

Again, thanks for all the input fellas. Just bought my oil change and will be getting to it shortly. Will keep posted what I all find mixed in there.

[70 cutlass 442]

Again, thanks for all the input fellas. Just bought my oil change and will be getting to it shortly. Will keep posted what I all find mixed in there.

godo luck! hopefully there is no real issue..... a bit of advice.. If you do any of the work yourself, DO NOT use a chilton/haynes... they have been wrong on so many ocassions that i just said screw it and spent the $$ for a factory service manual... you cant go wrong that way!

[MSGTGT]

After reading this post...I just had to add my own 2 cents:

MY Experience with a "pretend" speed shop; Big 3 Performance

1. Had my car built at Big 3 Performance (Super charged, Cams, Reworked Tranny, Drive-Shaft, new Gears, etc.)

2. The tune was a "garage" tune or as I was told; a "street" tune and it sucked.

3. Took my car to C & M Performance and Marv re-tuned it.

4. The gears that Big 3 installed were trashed due to bad installation.

5. Took my car to Marv and he installed new gears.

6. The traany that was re-worked by Big 3 was leaking like a pig.

7. Took my car to Marv and he replaced the torque converter and stopped the leak.

I guess I should have taken my car to Marv in the first place. Big 3 was one of those "pretend" speed shops and I hope they all go to jail. They cost me a ton of money for rework. The good thing is; the rework being done by Marv is top notch. It's easy to see that I'm a BIG fan of Marv. And I hate those who "pretend" to be as good as he is.

Sorry...hope I didn't offend anyone...

[70 cutlass 442]

After reading this post...I just had to add my own 2 cents:

MY Experience with a "pretend" speed shop; Big 3 Performance

1. Had my car built at Big 3 Performance (Super charged, Cams, Reworked Tranny, Drive-Shaft, new Gears, etc.)

2. The tune was a "garage" tune or as I was told; a "street" tune and it sucked.

3. Took my car to C & M Performance and Marv re-tuned it.

4. The gears that Big 3 installed were trashed due to bad installation.

5. Took my car to Marv and he installed new gears.

6. The traany that was re-worked by Big 3 was leaking like a pig.

7. Took my car to Marv and he replaced the torque converter and stopped the leak.

I guess I should have taken my car to Marv in the first place. Big 3 was one of those "pretend" speed shops and I hope they all go to jail. They cost me a ton of money for rework. The good thing is; the rework being done by Marv is top notch. It's easy to see that I'm a BIG fan of Marv. And I hate those who "pretend" to be as good as he is.

Sorry...hope I didn't offend anyone...


If you are reffering to me, then no offence taken :thumbsup The point i tried to make is I do good work for a very reasonable price without sacraficing quality and I have a list of happy customers to prove it. unlike big three, i have no horror stories to come out of my shop and am workign the best i can to keep my rep that way!

[MSGTGT]

If you are reffering to me, then no offence taken :thumbsup The point i tried to make is I do good work for a very reasonable price without sacraficing quality and I have a list of happy customers to prove it. unlike big three, i have no horror stories to come out of my shop and am workign the best i can to keep my rep that way!

No...I wasn't specifically referring to you, but I'm glad you took no offence. I'm still angry about my experience with Big 3 and I take every opportunity to express it. I'm also very glad to hear that there are other shops/mechanics out there who are doing quality work and stand behind it. Horror stories like mine should never happen. We (the customer) put our trust in a shop/mechanic, hand over our cars and our money and expect a quality job in return. When a shop/mechanic does a quality job and stands behind their work (like Marv), they end up with more business then they can handle. I expect that will be the case with you because you obviously understand that concept. I wish you the best of luck and maybe our paths will cross in the future.

[GRAMPS SS]

Names.... :stare :alcoholic

would one be.............

BIG POWER 1