GM disbands unit that creates high-performance vehicles

[That_Guy]

amie LaReau
Automotive News
February 18, 2009 - 5:05 pm ET

DETROIT -- General Motors, focusing on mainstream products in a battle to survive, has scrapped a unit that produced high-performance vehicles.

GM today disbanded High Performance Vehicle Operations, which is based at the company's suburban Detroit technical center, and redeployed its engineers, said spokesman Vince Muniga.

"All high-performance projects are on indefinite hold," Muniga said. "The engineers are moving into different areas of the organization, and they will work on Cadillacs, Buicks, Chevrolets and Pontiacs."

The unit created low-volume vehicles for GM's divisions designed to appeal to enthusiasts and bolster the company's image. Products included V-series Cadillacs and the Chevrolet Cobalt SS, HHR SS and a V-8 version of the Colorado.

Muniga said there are no plans for high-performance versions of upcoming cars.The move is in the spirit of GM's viability plan delivered to the U.S. Treasury Department on Tuesday. In the plan, GM said its future-product focus is on fuel- efficient cars and crossovers. It also pledged to increase its current offering of six hybrids to 14 by 2012 and to 26 by 2014. GM also boosted its request for federal aid by as much as $16.6 billion.

The High Performance Vehicle Operations unit could be reinstated once GM regains its financial health, GM's Muniga said.

"These guys are pretty good at what they do," Muniga said, "They are moving into different areas to work on core products."




:(this makes me have a sad face:(

[Breecher_7]

Smart move on GM's behalf.... Sucks for those of use it appeals to though.

[That_Guy]

no its ******* great. GM's gonna turn into Toyota, producing nothing but bland consumer vehicles:rolleyes:

[-stew-]

wat? GM made high performance vehicles? Did I miss something?

[Breecher_7]

no its ******* great. GM's gonna turn into Toyota, producing nothing but bland consumer vehicles:rolleyes:

Thats what pays the bills.... :stare

[88Nightmare]

wat? GM made high performance vehicles? Did I miss something?

yeah cuz that 1990 fox you got there was a real white knuckle ride :thumbsup

[RanJer]

So... what does this do to the mythical camaro? lol

[DR.FORD]

wat? GM made high performance vehicles? Did I miss something?

X2!!:rolf JK
Never Fear, Ford will still miss an opportunity!

[That_Guy]

Thats what pays the bills.... :stare


its almost sad.. very un-American

paying bills is overrated.

[-stew-]

no its ******* great. GM's gonna turn into Toyota, producing nothing but bland consumer vehicles:rolleyes:

dude...you drive a cobalt. the only chevy that isn't a bland consumer is the vette. aside from putting bullshit and glitter ss badges on the trailblazer and cobalt. v8 monte carlo/ g8? effin gay. you can't just dump an off the shelf v8 into a front drive car and call it a performance car. gm ain't had a performance pot to piss in since they axed the f-body.

[88Nightmare]

grab a lane stew

[Breecher_7]

dude...you drive a cobalt. the only chevy that isn't a bland consumer is the vette. aside from putting bullshit and glitter ss badges on the trailblazer and cobalt. v8 monte carlo/ g8? effin gay. you can't just dump an off the shelf v8 into a front drive car and call it a performance car. gm ain't had a performance pot to piss in since they axed the f-body.

The CTS-V is a real bland....... :rolf

Vette, TBSS, CTS-V, G8, will all haul some serious ass and have quite possibly one of the best engine platforms in them ever designed.....

[Breecher_7]

grab a lane stew

No shit... Ill take a piece of that hot rod with the 7500lb oil burner... Win or loose, you wont get any exscuses here.... :stare

[88Nightmare]

2009 CTS-V with 550hp..... real bland :D

[88Nightmare]

No shit... Ill take a piece of that hot rod with the 7500lb oil burner... Win or loose, you wont get any exscuses here.... :stare

which hotrod, the glittery yet bland silver brick or fords weak attempt at a muscle car? :wow

[Breecher_7]

which hotrod, the glittery yet bland silver brick or fords weak attempt at a muscle car? :wow

I was referring to the Fox, but what the hell, ill take a shot at the TBSS and loose my ass.... Or will I...... :stare

[88Nightmare]

idk, those oil burning tanks with bowties on em can get up and move surprisingly well

[Breecher_7]

idk, those oil burning tanks with bowties on em can get up and move surprisingly well

Especially if properly motivated!

[PB86MCSS]

I'd definately consider the TBSS, G8 and even Cobalt SS decent performers in their own right....not everyones cup of tea and not as badass as the new Camaro maybe but it can handle its own performance wise, IMO.

It stinks but is this a surprise? They obviously need to focus on staying afloat and then worry about performance stuff if/when they start to come around. Plenty of performance cars for us to buy unless you need to have a new one or something.

[88Nightmare]

I agree with do what they have to do to stay afloat. If they get their shit organized and back on the right track, theres still an opportunity for GMPD to come back and make some more bullshit and glitter :D

[-stew-]

So... what does this do to the mythical camaro? lol

Look for it in the next battlebots flick.


grab a lane stew Lets do it. I'm building my car for handling, but I'll line up on ya. Care to run 0-100-0, also?:shades


The CTS-V is a real bland....... :rolf

Vette, TBSS, CTS-V, G8, will all haul some serious ass and have quite possibly one of the best engine platforms in them ever designed.....

Forgot about the CTS-V. I was thinking more Chevy than all GM lines in my post. I agree about the LSx being one of the best performance engine designs. I read somewhere: "LS1 in a fox body; the right engine in the right car."



which hotrod, the glittery yet bland silver brick or fords weak attempt at a muscle car? :wow

Fords weak attempt at a muscle car? :rolf:rolf:rolf That weak attempt at a muscle car ushered in the performance movement of the last fifteen to twenty years. And with a few suspension bolt-ons that weak attempt becomes a world class handler.

http://50mustangsuperfords.automotive.com/42517/15518-maximum-motorsports-suspension-kit/index.html

Sure it'll out slalom Ferraris, Loutus', and Porsches; but it doesn't have built in child booster seats or a panel to keep that gallon of milk from sliding around the back, like your real muscle car (station wagon!) has...

:loser

[Waver]

easy stew, I think someone is just getting butthurt. but honestly, what "performance" car has ford had, other than the mustang lineup, since 04? No lightning, no svt model focus, no sho......That in its self makes this even worse for GM, with the new SHO, SVT Fusion (with the new ecoboost engine), the SVT Raptor, The new 2010 Mustang/gt500, as well as all of the dealer sold versions of "that weak excuse for a muscle car" from Roush and Saleen.......

This is sad to me, because the last time that the big three had more than one compairable performance car out at the same time was the late 90's/early 00's.....

I can list them....
Escort gt/zx2/SVT Focus vs cavalier z-24/ls/Cobalt SS/ vs Neon Srt4/RT
Ford Probe gt vs Beretta gtz/gtu/z-26
Ford taurus SHO/Contour SVT vs Lumina Z-34/Monte Carlo z-34 vs Dodge Spirit rt
Ford f-150 Lightning vs Chevy Silverado 454 SS vs Dodge Ram Srt 10

And of course Mustang vs Firebird/trans am vs Camaro

[BAD LS1]

Hmm ive got two of these off the shelf v8 powered glitter badged turds... care to touch'em up in a straight line then to proove how slug like they are?

Ask\ nutwaver said, you blue oval boys lost ur perf division a few years back and i still respect most of their attempts at unique vehicles even though they actually had less then stellar perf #'s

[wrath]

The problem with GM canning the team is that those vehicles are what got people in the dealerships to buy Uplanders and and Malibus.

[jbiscuit]

this is sad.....I really hope that in the future, our only car choices are bland econocruisers. :( The "excitement" that is created from a lot of these specialty vehicles drives people to the showrooms. We need this economy to snap back really soon!

[SSLEVO]

Lol, Gm has came out with some pretty bad ass powertrains in the last 10 years. The LS series walks around any N/A motor ford has ever built. How about the 260 hp 4 cyl ecotec in the cobalt ss and solstace/sky. What about the 300hp 3.6L direct inject v6?

[That_Guy]

Lol, Gm has came out with some pretty bad ass powertrains in the last 10 years. The LS series walks around any N/A motor ford has ever built. How about the 260 hp 4 cyl ecotec in the cobalt ss and solstace/sky. What about the 300hp 3.6L direct inject v6?


side note there are guys hitting 430 hp with stock internals on those 4cly..thats just ******* awesome

[-stew-]

I'm not defending Ford. I have no brand loyalty. My choice of a Mustang over an f-body was made with my wallet and my head, not my heart. That being said, I stand firm in my belief that the Fox Mustang was the last true muscle car: base model, no option car with the firms hot rod motor in the frame rails. I know that a low option Camaro was available after Ford killed the LX 5.0, but it was a Z28. And the only visual difference between the Z and the RS were a few badges. That relates to an ongoing trend, throwing every option on the shelf into muscle cars. Leather, electric windows, navi, tv's in the head rests, fake scoops, heated ass massagers, 17 heated and cooled cup holders, countless other trinkets that don't belong in a muscle car. I want a Camaro, not a BMW M series. I want a RoadRunner, not a GTX.

I stand by my statements that GM's recent fleet of SS's are little more than tarted up versions of what was already on the lot; not worthy of the badge or the history behind it.

[88Nightmare]

I can list them....
Escort gt/zx2/SVT Focus vs cavalier z-24/ls/Cobalt SS/ vs Neon Srt4/RT
Ford Probe gt vs Beretta gtz/gtu/z-26
Ford taurus SHO/Contour SVT vs Lumina Z-34/Monte Carlo z-34 vs Dodge Spirit rt
Ford f-150 Lightning vs Chevy Silverado 454 SS vs Dodge Ram Srt 10

And of course Mustang vs Firebird/trans am vs Camaro

Dude nick, how can you group in a Z24 cavalier with a neon srt4?

And how do the Z34's compare to the SHO? The Z34's had the same motors as their regular counterparts, it was all appearance.

And you are going to list the 454SS as a comparison to the SRT10? Really?????

And my weak attempt at a muscle car comment is referring to the foxbody. I do like certain stangs. For some reason, im still partial to the SN95's even though they were pretty boring under the hood. The terminators were pretty sweet too.


Lol, Gm has came out with some pretty bad ass powertrains in the last 10 years. The LS series walks around any N/A motor ford has ever built. How about the 260 hp 4 cyl ecotec in the cobalt ss and solstace/sky. What about the 300hp 3.6L direct inject v6?


I think I saw the 3.6L DI in the Caddy CTS with 310 or 315hp.... and thats NA :stare

the AWD system in the Silverado SS and TBSS isn't too shabby. The TBSS has the Torsen T3 transfer case, 14 bolt 9.5 rear axle in a lightweight aluminum housing, auto-leveling rear air bag suspension, factory front coil overs (non adjustable). It's a good platform for some fun, a shame it came packaged with a trans that will give out once you start throwing more power at it

[Poncho]

I get what you're sayin' stew, but we aren't in a time anymore when people want manual windows, crappy seats, you have to have ABS, airbags, and other crap nowadays.

FWIW the only "option" after color for my turd was automatic/manual

I also agree with mike. 140/150hp Cavalier Z doesn't compare to a 240hp SRT-4, as is any of your listed Fords.
Silverado 454SS was a joke.
Probe v.s. Beretta? LOL, really?
SHO v.s. Lumina/Monte Carlo Z/34... Yea, but 15.2 1/4 mile times aren't exactly blistering Mike you are wrong though, the Motors in the SHO and the Lumina/Monte Carlo were unique to their model until '98

[BAD LS1]

Im glad i got my pieces of GM history. Just like the late 60's muscle car wars, that party crashed early and took over 30 years to arrive at something kinda cool again. The mid 80's early 90's saw some sparks of hope with all the turbo V6 stuff but quickly died too...

Stick a fork in this world lol

[Poncho]

Also I'm agreeing with Tom here. Glad I have a piece of this era.

[88Nightmare]

I'm not defending Ford. I have no brand loyalty. My choice of a Mustang over an f-body was made with my wallet and my head, not my heart. That being said, I stand firm in my belief that the Fox Mustang was the last true muscle car: base model, no option car with the firms hot rod motor in the frame rails. I know that a low option Camaro was available after Ford killed the LX 5.0, but it was a Z28. And the only visual difference between the Z and the RS were a few badges. That relates to an ongoing trend, throwing every option on the shelf into muscle cars. Leather, electric windows, navi, tv's in the head rests, fake scoops, heated ass massagers, 17 heated and cooled cup holders, countless other trinkets that don't belong in a muscle car. I want a Camaro, not a BMW M series. I want a RoadRunner, not a GTX.

I stand by my statements that GM's recent fleet of SS's are little more than tarted up versions of what was already on the lot; not worthy of the badge or the history behind it.

I say the last true muscle cars died in the early 70's when the Chevelle got all retarded and then ditched. The Charger also died in the early 70's. The Mustang tried to stay strong, but also got retarded in the mid to late 70's. They came out with the Mustang II..... What an abomination of a vehicle. Talk about not living up to the badge and history behind it. Then the fuel crunch in the late 70's hit and all muscle car hope was lost. 3rd gen camaros came around, fox bodies came around, and they were both "meh" in my opinion. While technically they were sports cars of their current day and age, they were certainly not muscle cars. A muscle car to me is a 1970 Chevelle SS, a 67 Shelby GT350/500, A 71 Mustang Mach 1, a 1971 Charger, not a 1990 Mustang LX, not a 1991 IROC-Z. But times change, and so do the cars. You will never see a production muscle car again like the 1970 Chevelle SS, just the way life goes.....

As far as the "tarted" up SS's now a days, yeah, they have things that no old school SS would ever have. A base model TBSS still has power windows, locks, keyless entry, and probably dual zone climate control. Its the way things are now a days. Does that make them bad? No. It just helps GM sell the vehicle to a broader range of people. More customers = more money. Sure, you or I would buy it if it had crank windows and the always fun "reach-across-the-whole-width-of-the-vehicle-to-unlock-the-door-for-your-friend" locks, but then Joe Schmoe's wife won't want it, causing them to look at buying a different vehicle. If GM built the vehicle and only sold a couple thousand, was it really worth it for them to engineer and barely profit from?

[BAD LS1]

Mike its ok... LOL Someone said it best that every OEM will adopt the toyota way of life and will be selling souless econoboxes. Us "performance car" people are barely a pimple on the ass on the car buying world, lots of crotchity old fucks out there prefer their ear wax gold camry to a 300HP Impala SS.

[88Nightmare]

I get what you're sayin' stew, but we aren't in a time anymore when people want manual windows, crappy seats, you have to have ABS, airbags, and other crap nowadays.

FWIW the only "option" after color for my turd was automatic/manual

I also agree with mike. 140/150hp Cavalier Z doesn't compare to a 240hp SRT-4, as is any of your listed Fords.
Silverado 454SS was a joke.
Probe v.s. Beretta? LOL, really?
SHO v.s. Lumina/Monte Carlo Z/34... Yea, but 15.2 1/4 mile times aren't exactly blistering Mike you are wrong though, the Motors in the SHO and the Lumina/Monte Carlo were unique to their model until '98

hmm, I always thought the Z34 cars were all appearance. Learn somethin new every day :D

The SHO's definitely had their own motors.


Also I'm agreeing with Tom here. Glad I have a piece of this era.

x2

The way it seems, we may never have vehicles like the Monte SS, GTO, TBSS, and such ever again. With the government demanding better fuel mileage, auto makers close to going under, and the general populations vehicular wants, it seems hopeless. Enjoy what you have, in a few years, they probably won't be making them anymore

[88Nightmare]

Mike its ok... LOL Someone said it best that every OEM will adopt the toyota way of life and will be selling souless econoboxes. Us "performance car" people are barely a pimple on the ass on the car buying world, lots of crotchity old fucks out there prefer their ear wax gold camry to a 300HP Impala SS.

or the soccer mom and white collar dad who want their minivan or crossover Taurus X :punch:

For every performance minded buyer walking onto a showroom floor, theres 1,000 economy minded buyers right behind him


Proof is out there. When we picked up our TBSS from Holz, they had another used 2007 TBSS and 4 brand new TBSS's on their lot, all stickered up big sale prices. Under their overhang in the spots saved for vehicle delivery, there was our TBSS, a Tahoe, and then a collection of Cobalts and maybe 1 base model impala. Sales numbers don't lie :(

[SSLEVO]

News flash, the muscle car is dead, it has been for years. People want options, they don't want to be buying a car with manual windows and locks. If people won't buy it they won't sell it, its as simple at that. The closest thing to a muscle car today IMO is the Lancer Evolution RS. Al roof and hood, no stereo, no sound deadening, manual windows/locks. Basically a track car from the factory.

[T-Bag]

hmm, I always thought the Z34 cars were all appearance. Learn somethin new every day :D

The SHO's definitely had their own motors.



x2

The way it seems, we may never have vehicles like the Monte SS, GTO, TBSS, and such ever again. With the government demanding better fuel mileage, auto makers close to going under, and the general populations vehicular wants, it seems hopeless. Enjoy what you have, in a few years, they probably won't be making them anymore

The Z34 cars were more of an appearance package than anything. The monte got the 3.8....whoopty fricken do. The Lumina Z34 had a halfway powerful engine but it was a tank and still a 16 second beast.

[Waver]

Hmm ive got two of these off the shelf v8 powered glitter badged turds... care to touch'em up in a straight line then to proove how slug like they are?

Ask\ nutwaver said, you blue oval boys lost ur perf division a few years back and i still respect most of their attempts at unique vehicles even though they actually had less then stellar perf #'s


Well honestly SVT has never really "left" same with SVO.....the Stv team's resources were put towards the gt500 and the Ford gt....infact if you look at the engines of both vehicles, the scuff plates of both vehicles, and the rims of both vehicles, the SVT name still remains.....Still the GT500 and the GT are not exactally cars that the average man can afford, likt he 03/04 cobras, contour, focus, and lightning.....gm had ford on that since 04 with the ss and redline series. Ironic though......Ford puts the Svt name on only the high end cars for a few years and is doing allright enough to bring back the svt cars and trucks in the next few months to a year, just as GM kills the lines.....for now...

I hope to once again see the performance war kick off in not only the high end shit but also on the people movers that are out right now, just like it was in the 60's 70's 80's and 90's........I think that would stimulate the auto makers a little more.........

[88Nightmare]

Well honestly SVT has never really "left" same with SVO.....the Stv team's resources were put towards the gt500 and the Ford gt....infact if you look at the engines of both vehicles, the scuff plates of both vehicles, and the rims of both vehicles, the SVT name still remains.....Still the GT500 and the GT are not exactally cars that the average man can afford, likt he 03/04 cobras, contour, focus, and lightning.....gm had ford on that since 04 with the ss and redline series. Ironic though......Ford puts the Svt name on only the high end cars for a few years and is doing allright enough to bring back the svt cars and trucks in the next few months to a year, just as GM kills the lines.....for now...

I hope to once again see the performance war kick off in not only the high end shit but also on the people movers that are out right now, just like it was in the 60's 70's 80's and 90's........I think that would stimulate the auto makers a little more.........

I find no irony in that. GM is doing what they have to do to survive. The small amount of people that bought the GMPD line of vehicles is miniscule compared to the rest of the regular vehicles they sell.

The next gen SHO's comin out will be bought primarily by SHO enthusiasts, but how many joe schmoes do you think will buy an SHO over a regular taurus?

[BAD LS1]

Also i think the latest "SS" models strengthened the recognition of the name plate... The older "SS" cars were known as the the more sporty/luxury upgrade over the "sport coupes" and not always meant it had a performance prowess as you can typically get any small V8 early on and elect for a big block in the late 60's and some cars it defaulted to the big block. The new "SS" vehicles lived up to the same thing its forefathers accomplished and actually is gauranteed to out perform its less counter parts now.

[88Nightmare]

Sure, some people think GM dropped the ball with the wrong wheel drive Imp/Monte SS, but the platform was already established. Why engineer a RWD platform for the small handful of people that want the ultimate performance? Of course the fwd imp/monte ss is no all out drag racer, but its still enough to have plenty of fun with... just look at Toms Monte SS..... I bet it runs away from a good amount of stangs and f-bodies :D

[Waver]

Dude nick, how can you group in a Z24 cavalier with a neon srt4? Well directally you cant, I was just going with the historical line....for instance Escort gt-zx2-svt focus. Cavalier Z-24-Cobalt SS supercharged. Neon rt-Neon Srt-4......see where I am going with this?


And how do the Z34's compare to the SHO? The Z34's had the same motors as their regular counterparts, it was all appearance. I see that you rebuted that statement....Also Road and track (or was it car and driver) did a compairison on the three back in like 91.......


And you are going to list the 454SS as a comparison to the SRT10? Really????? Once again historical time line here.....First it was the 351 powered lightning vs the 454ss, then the ss disapeared, then it was the supercharged 5.4 lightning vs the srt10 (and the lightning won that one, too bad it died at the end of 2004, where the srt10 ram went on for a few more years....)


And my weak attempt at a muscle car comment is referring to the foxbody. I do like certain stangs. For some reason, im still partial to the SN95's even though they were pretty boring under the hood. The terminators were pretty sweet too. I can see where you are comming from on this one, however you have to give it to ford for being competitive with the camaros and firebirds up untill the fbody demise.



I get what you're sayin' stew, but we aren't in a time anymore when people want manual windows, crappy seats, you have to have ABS, airbags, and other crap nowadays.

FWIW the only "option" after color for my turd was automatic/manual

I also agree with mike. 140/150hp Cavalier Z doesn't compare to a 240hp SRT-4, as is any of your listed Fords. See above

Silverado 454SS was a joke.see above again

Probe v.s. Beretta? LOL, really? What you are saying that the Probe and the Beretta wernt compeating for the same market share? Could of fooled me......the 96 Beretta z-26 was on par (even though it got beat by the probe) with the probe gt, in 97, when the probe got a slight bump in power/handeling for its last year in gts form there was no beretta in sight....Then there was the Probe gt in gen one form, that was compeating with the beretta gtz/gtu.....both vehicles came with a performance orientated 4 cyl (the probe had a turbo and the 180 hp 2.3 was nothing to sneeze at) and both had a v-6 that was around the 3.0l mark....I see the comparison, and yes, they were considered PERFORMANCE cars for their time.


SHO v.s. Lumina/Monte Carlo Z/34... Yea, but 15.2 1/4 mile times aren't exactly blistering Mike you are wrong though, the Motors in the SHO and the Lumina/Monte Carlo were unique to their model until '98

You have to keep in context the time that these cars were around....Sure shit they dont come any where near the new vehicles we have today, however back in their day look at what you had, a mustang that had 182 rwhp and a camaro that had about 200 rwhp....wow, that is mad power there.....

[Waver]

I find no irony in that. GM is doing what they have to do to survive. The small amount of people that bought the GMPD line of vehicles is miniscule compared to the rest of the regular vehicles they sell.

The next gen SHO's comin out will be bought primarily by SHO enthusiasts, but how many joe schmoes do you think will buy an SHO over a regular taurus?
Hence what ford did after 04 with the Svt brand, however they didnt disappear, and ford kept the name out there. You are partially correct in saying that ford is brinning out the sho because of the enthusiasts, however when you see that the eco-boost is a twin turbo car, it was more of a response to gm's ss line and the chrysler corps srt line.....they had to, and now that they are in better shape, they can, and take back their market share on the high performance "specialty" market.

[88Nightmare]

foxbody/sn95/new edge competitive with the f-body? usually blue oval guys are the first to cry about the f-body to always have more displacement, more hp... blah blah blah


But again, when I said "weak attempt at a muscle car", I wasn't implying the 3rd/4th gen F-body was any better. Neither are muscle cars to me. But a 5.0 foxbody had what.... 210hp? Far from a muscle car. Hell, the SHO's made almost that much.

The 4th gen F-bodies with the LS1 was closer to a muscle car as far as hp numbers, but when considering the cars "soul", its still no 67 Camaro SS :(

[Nix]

So are they still going to produce Vettes? Anyhow, the last true muscle car is the Corvette in my book. Not the mustang.

I would love to have either. :thumbsup

[Waver]

foxbody/sn95/new edge competitive with the f-body? usually blue oval guys are the first to cry about the f-body to always have more displacement, more hp... blah blah blah


But again, when I said "weak attempt at a muscle car", I wasn't implying the 3rd/4th gen F-body was any better. Neither are muscle cars to me. But a 5.0 foxbody had what.... 210hp? Far from a muscle car. Hell, the SHO's made almost that much.

The 4th gen F-bodies with the LS1 was closer to a muscle car as far as hp numbers, but when considering the cars "soul", its still no 67 Camaro SS :(
hey lets face it, I love my mustangs, however I do know that the sn-95 and new edge cars were a little behind their rival f bodys.....it took ford to change heads/intake to make the 4.6 faster than the damn lt1, and the demise of the fbody for ford to make the 4.6 as powerful as the ls1 (with the s-197).
Fox body vs third gen......well that is a tossup, as both were very compairable with hp and handeling....

[Waver]

So are they still going to produce Vettes? Anyhow, the last true muscle car is the Corvette in my book. Not the mustang.

I would love to have either. :thumbsup

Vetts were never compairable to a mustang.....I for one never really considered the vette a muscle car, I always considered it a sports car, in all its forms

[Sprayaway Fox]

foxbody/sn95/new edge competitive with the f-body? usually blue oval guys are the first to cry about the f-body to always have more displacement, more hp... blah blah blah


But again, when I said "weak attempt at a muscle car", I wasn't implying the 3rd/4th gen F-body was any better. Neither are muscle cars to me. But a 5.0 foxbody had what.... 210hp? Far from a muscle car. Hell, the SHO's made almost that much.

The 4th gen F-bodies with the LS1 was closer to a muscle car as far as hp numbers, but when considering the cars "soul", its still no 67 Camaro SS :(

Musclecar =Straightline

fox body, 5.0 easily modded, 4 link, strong rear, lightweight car, tons of aftermarket support, interchangable parts.
Sounds like a new edge musclecar to me.

As for the camaro its a great engine, swap in a cam and make 400 RWHP?! BBC would of killed for that back in the day with the drivability like todays LS engines. Id consider it a musclecar even though the TQ arm BS and the crappy rear ends.

[88Nightmare]

idk, to me a muscle car is this:

http://www.autobytel.com/images/1970/Ford/Mustang/400/1970_Ford_mustang_mach1twister.jpg
http://www.dreams-cars.net/images/Galerie/Shelby/Shelby_GT500_Eleanor_1967/Shelby_GT500_Eleanor_1967_01.jpg
http://www.2ndgenrestorations.com/images/926_DSC00122.JPG
http://67mustangblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/1967_shelby_gt350_auction_1_small.jpg
http://www.firstgencamaro.com/yenkopics/yenkocamaro.jpg

Thats muscle right there. I love the 4th gen F-bodies and all sorts of modern day sports cars, but honestly, todays cars don't hold a candle to the old school REAL muscle

[That_Guy]

muscle car has to have a big block imo..

[Korndogg]

mike those are pony cars lol

[Sprayaway Fox]

True they are. You notice they were the first groundbreaking thing the big 3 did so its hard to think the other way. If you put a LS engine in that camaro I bet you it would be the same effect its just the suspension and sound deadining etc make it a more non mechanical driving expeirence. LS5 BBC from the factory were 390HP 500 FT now if you rate them at lets say 425HP that would be around 375 to the rear wheels so in all retrospects the camaro now makes 330 plus more reliable with less maintanace. A 70 LT1 Gen 1 350 was 350 HP that equates to about 290 at the rear wheels. 290HP and a solid cam sound legendary but compared to now it is not. I love the body styles of yesteryear though.

P.S. The silver chevy is like my buds car completely restored and its a slug with a 396 in it. I had a 69 Chevelle with a 427 in it and it hauled the mail pretty good I wouldnt of wanted to take it more than 5oo miles round trip at 8-10 MPG witha 3.50 gear 9''

[Breecher_7]

Mike you sure do have alot of spare time...... :rolf