going carb to efi

[That_Guy]

im in the process of starting to make plans and goals for a mustang fox body that has a 5.0l in it. the car is carbed i want to do an efi conversion. i know there are a bunch of mustang guys on here and ive been talking to some of you "cponygo" beeing one the them but im currios what the best kit is out there for the price "bang for the buck factor" i plan on doing a full intake asembly replacement. throttle body to intake mani. wondering what some of you have had the best experince with. as of now im looking at picking up

this bad boy but im wondering if i could port the stock intake mani and get the same results.

http://www.americanmuscle.com/bbk-intake-manifold-86-93.html

this throttle body
http://www.americanmuscle.com/bbk-70mm-tb-86-93-wspacer.html


im looking for suggestions

[xxtremeteam]

best bang for the buck intake I think would be a explorer intake they are a copy of the cobra intake and a whole lot cheaper normally in the $150 range, also the heads are a ok upgrade as well from the explorer. most junk yards sell complete intake to pan explorer motors for 500.00, again there are better options but for someone on a budget like me this are a good start

[-stew-]

If your gonna convert a 4 eyed to efi, buy a junk 89+ mustang with a 5.0 in it. It's a little more involved than buying a manifold.

[Prince Valiant]

Best bang for the buck is a carb. Still has the lowest prices, greatest flexibility, still makes the most power...and tuned right (which is not that hard), still has great driveability.

[juicedimpss]

Best bang for the buck is a carb. Still has the lowest prices, greatest flexibility, still makes the most power...and tuned right (which is not that hard), still has great driveability.

:thumbsup

[SSLEVO]

Best bang for the buck is a carb. Still has the lowest prices, greatest flexibility, still makes the most power...and tuned right (which is not that hard), still has great driveability.


Thats pretty bold of you to say a carb setup will make more power than an EFI system. I do agree that it will be a lot of work and money to convert for no real reason. Edelbrock makes Gm kits but i think they run close to 1500 and up. Maybe check them out.

[DurtyKurty]

FYI, the conversion is fairly involved. It's not really worth it if your just going to go to an OEM (eec-iv) ECU.

[DurtyKurty]

Thats pretty bold of you to say a carb setup will make more power than an EFI system.

Peak power output typically does still go to the carb. However, the newer efi manifolds in the last few years do compete very closely and have the added benefit of a significantly broader torque curve.

As far as a cost thing, efi systems can be done on a surprisingly low budget.

[juicedimpss]

Peak power output typically does still go to the carb. However, the newer efi manifolds in the last few years do compete very closely and have the added benefit of a significantly broader torque curve.

As far as a cost thing, efi systems can be done on a surprisingly low budget.

the sad truth to that is for an "inexpensive" efi setup it is no better than having a carb. To get a "useful" working efi with good datalogging it costs money,period.

[DurtyKurty]

the sad truth to that is for an "inexpensive" efi setup it is no better than having a carb. To get a "useful" working efi with good datalogging it costs money,period.

That may have been your experience, but it is far from true. That is, unless we have vastly different opinions on what expensive is. Either way, no doubt it will cost you something.

[juicedimpss]

That may have been your experience, but it is far from true. That is, unless we have vastly different opinions on what expensive is. Either way, no doubt it will cost you something.

what do you consider low budget for efi?

[DurtyKurty]

Using your criteria ""useful" working efi with good datalogging", and by this I assume you mean a fully programable ECU with some bells and whistles - datalogging etc.

ECU, with a Wideband. All new- sub $600

[juicedimpss]

Using your criteria ""useful" working efi with good datalogging", and by this I assume you mean a fully programable ECU with some bells and whistles - datalogging etc.

ECU, with a Wideband. All new- sub $600

in my mind an efi system worthy of converting to better be able to outperform a carb. it better have individual cyl fuel and timing control as well as "bells and whistles" traction control,boost control etc.

[-stew-]

in my mind an efi system worthy of converting to better be able to outperform a carb. it better have individual cyl fuel and timing control as well as "bells and whistles" traction control,boost control etc.


I don't know what OP is planning on doing with his car, but is all that shit necessary on the average street car that see's the strip occasionally? Personally I think if OP wants an EFI mustang, just buy one. They are all over the place. If his heart is set on a four eye, buy and '86 and convert it to mass air along with a head swap. (Factory heads on '86's are trash.)

[juicedimpss]

I don't know what OP is planning on doing with his car, but is all that shit necessary on the average street car that see's the strip occasionally? Personally I think if OP wants an EFI mustang, just buy one. They are all over the place. If his heart is set on a four eye, buy and '86 and convert it to mass air along with a head swap. (Factory heads on '86's are trash.)

while i would agree that most people dont need all that,why switch to something that is "better" if it does everything EQUAL?
im not trying to be abrasive here at all,i hope none of this sounds shitty.

[-stew-]

while i would agree that most people dont need all that,why switch to something that is "better" if it does everything EQUAL?
im not trying to be abrasive here at all,i hope none of this sounds shitty.

If EFI (OEM EEC IV) is no better that a carb, why did every auto maker on the planet switch to EFI? (Don't say governmental emissions regulation, EFI has nothing to do with tail pipe emissions. Exhaust Gas Recirculation and catalytic converters reduce tail pipe emissions.)

[juicedimpss]

If EFI is no better that a carb, why did every auto maker on the planet switch to EFI? (Don't say governmental emissions regulation, EFI has nothing to do with tail pipe emissions. Exhaust Gas Recirculation and catalytic converters reduce tail pipe emissions.)

some of the early stuff i would consider no better than a carb. i mean,a batch fired throttle body...really?:rolf

i would honestly have to say for auto makers to have switched would be two reasons.
1)the tree huggers have forced it
2) they have figured out a way to do it cheaper than a carb.

[DurtyKurty]

in my mind an efi system worthy of converting to better be able to outperform a carb. it better have individual cyl fuel and timing control as well as "bells and whistles" traction control,boost control etc.

That's cool. I can't knock you for that.

The traction control-boost control-n20 control stuff is all pretty standard now (software wise).
The individual cylinder fuel control tends to be a bit overkill IMO because it usually necessitates the use of a cam position sensor which can be a bear on some engines and then to add the fact that very few people (let a alone shops) have the ability to measure individual cylinder afr to the degree that would make it useful.

There are a couple of things with carburetors that make me shy away. Like, to change a jet or power valve is no big deal but if you have to start messing with the emulsion circuit or the channel restrictors like when doing forced induction.... bleh. You can have it. The other big downfall for me with the carburetor is the ignition side of things. I mean, to have an easily adjustable curve, you always end up with a digital 6 or some other pretty expensive ignition control.... I figure, like with a digital 6 your practically half way there... all you need is the fuel control. :)

[-stew-]

some of the early stuff i would consider no better than a carb. i mean,a batch fired throttle body...really?:rolf

i would honestly have to say for auto makers to have switched would be two reasons.
1)the tree huggers have forced it
2) they have figured out a way to do it cheaper than a carb.

WTF is a batch fired throttle body?

I think tbi is leaps better than a carb in aspects of overall driveablity and maintenance. Either it works or it doesn't. Aside from the rare part failure, tbi will always work. A carb has springs that weaken, and moving parts that can stick, heating elements that fail, small passages that can clogged, floats that rely solely on buoyancy and no friction at the pivot point, various points of adjustablity.

TBI has an ECM, one or two injectors, a electric fuel pump powered by a relay, and an ignition trigger (either a crank position sensor or a distributor.)

Port fuel injection is little more than TBI with more injectors located closer to the intake valves.

Direct injection>Sequential injection>Port injection>TBI>carb>beating feet


PS: Why did the tree huggers force out carbs?

[Prince Valiant]

The other big downfall for me with the carburetor is the ignition side of things. I mean, to have an easily adjustable curve, you always end up with a digital 6 or some other pretty expensive ignition control.... I figure, like with a digital 6 your practically half way there... all you need is the fuel control. :)Ignition curves are likewise, fairly easy to do once you actually know what to do (takes just a little bit to learn)

[Prince Valiant]

PS: Why did the tree huggers force out carbs?No compatibility with OBD systems.

[juicedimpss]

WTF is a batch fired throttle body?

I think tbi is leaps better than a carb in aspects of overall driveablity and maintenance. Either it works or it doesn't. Aside from the rare part failure, tbi will always work. A carb has springs that weaken, and moving parts that can stick, heating elements that fail, small passages that can clogged, floats that rely solely on buoyancy and no friction at the pivot point, various points of adjustablity.

TBI has an ECM, one or two injectors, a electric fuel pump powered by a relay, and an ignition trigger (either a crank position sensor or a distributor.)

Port fuel injection is little more than TBI with more injectors located closer to the intake valves.

Direct injection>Sequential injection>Port injection>TBI>carb>beating feet


PS: Why did the tree huggers force out carbs?


tbi>carb? seriously,it is just as archaic and only adds wiring to a simple solution to getting fuel to a cylinder. the tbi will not atomize or distribute any more efficiently than the boosters of a carb. that is a fact.
im not saying a carb is the best thing in the world,i just fail to understand why people choose certain injection setups over something proven.

[DurtyKurty]

Ignition curves are likewise, fairly easy to do once you actually know what to do (takes just a little bit to learn)

It's not exactly the changing of the curve as much as it's the customization of the curve itself. Again, this is significantly more important in forced induction.

[-stew-]

tbi>carb? seriously,it is just as archaic and only adds wiring to a simple solution to getting fuel to a cylinder. the tbi will not atomize or distribute any more efficiently than the boosters of a carb. that is a fact.
im not saying a carb is the best thing in the world,i just fail to understand why people choose certain injection setups over something proven.


tbi>carb. Seriously. Not for a high performance application, but from a general performance. Fewer moving parts, nothing to wear and need adjusting to compensate for. A carburetor is by no means a simple solution. They are highly complex machines.


BTW: I think auto makers would have headed towards efi if for no reason other than styling and it allowing for smaller overall engine packaging. This is the whole reason Chrysler slanted their six. Lower hood lines.

[DurtyKurty]

tbi>carb. Seriously. Not for a high performance application, but from a general performance. Fewer moving parts, nothing to wear and need adjusting to compensate for. A carburetor is by no means a simple solution. They are highly complex machines.


BTW: I think auto makers would have headed towards efi if for no reason other than styling and it allowing for smaller overall engine packaging. This is the whole reason Chrysler slanted their six. Lower hood lines.

Juicedimp hit the nail on the head earlier when he said "2) they have figured out a way to do it cheaper than a carb. " That is the end all right there.

As far as TBI vs anything. TBI owns all. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKyP19ky_W0&feature=related) Best of both worlds... just not in the OEM. :)

[FourEyedFord]

There are a couple of things with carburetors that make me shy away. Like, to change a jet or power valve is no big deal but if you have to start messing with the emulsion circuit or the channel restrictors like when doing forced induction.... bleh. You can have it. The other big downfall for me with the carburetor is the ignition side of things. I mean, to have an easily adjustable curve, you always end up with a digital 6 or some other pretty expensive ignition control.... I figure, like with a digital 6 your practically half way there... all you need is the fuel control. :)

Come on Kurt, the PVCRs are right behind the power valve, just one step further than pulling out the PV! :D

This all depends on what level you want to take the car two as to which is better suited! I don't know if I would say carbs make more power than EFI nowadays though.

Put a Motorcraft "Brain Box" on it and call it done! :rolf

[DurtyKurty]

Come on Kurt, the PVCRs are right behind the power valve, just one step further! :D

I will admit that you have the purtyist changeable PVCR's I have ever seen! :cool:

[FourEyedFord]

I will admit that you have the purtyist changeable PVCR's I have ever seen! :cool:

Thats what she said! :goof

It is amazing how simple a boost referenced power valve and adjustable channel restrictors are. The only thing that sucks is getting fuel all over you hands when "tunning". :D

[DurtyKurty]

Thats what she said! :goof

It is amazing how simple a boost referenced power valve and adjustable channel restrictors are. The only thing that sucks is getting fuel all over you hands when "tunning". :D


I believe you, but.... remind me, how much was that carburetor? J/K :)

[BOSS LX]

Carbs are for slow people! :rolf

With that being sad, any injection set up that is not 100% stand alone is JUNK! It took me 6 years to figure this out!:thumbsup

[FourEyedFord]

I believe you, but.... remind me, how much was that carburetor? J/K :)

It was only $1400.... :(

[FourEyedFord]

Carbs are for slow people! :rolf

With that being sad, any injection set up that is not 100% stand alone is JUNK! It took me 6 years to figure this out!:thumbsup

How many times did it go through your head last year to convert to a carb again? :wow

[BOSS LX]

How many times did it go through your head last year to convert to a carb again? :wow

Good point! I almost ripped out the PMS, just so I could light it on fire!

[WhatsADSM]

To the OP:
IF and only IF you are willing to spend some decent cash to "do it right" then you should go with EFI. Otherwise I would just stick with the carb.

Re: Carb vs. EFI talk:

OEMs switched to EFI for a TON of reasons. I am only listing the FUEL related issues here, ignition over a distributor is another discussion which looks a lot like this one.

Emissions most certainly was one of the biggest reasons. That included both OBD integration and more importantly the EFI system was really the first thing to include a feedback loop. Oxygen sensor's work wonders for the emissions of a vehicles.

Then of course there was (as previously brought up), the reliability. Modern EFI systems are pretty damn rugged, and in most cases you never really have to do much "rebuilding" like in the days of carb.

And finally an issue that surprisingly no one has touched on. Tuning. First off was the ability for the OEM to quickly retune a vehicle while they were developing it. If they wanted more fuel at startup it was a few key strokes away. If they changed VE with a set of new cams, again key strokes away. Secondly, and no less equally important was the ability for the vehicle to adjust it's tune dynamically in ways a carb could only dream of. Atmospheric pressure = compensated for. Intake temp = compensated for. System aging = compensated for. The list just goes on and on. There are WAY WAY more adjustments that allows an EFI car to be in the proper tune for virtually any condition, compared to a carb.

Cost... ehh. I dunno carbs are pretty cheap. Only recently has the overall cost of an EFI system to an OEM become comparable, and that's definately based on volume.

The transistor was a phenomenal invention, embrace it.

[badass88gt]

I cant see any reason to switch to EFI whatsoever. Carb is cheaper, can be just as efficient/driveable, make just as much power (if not more) for far less money, and is easier to tune. The switch from carb to EFI is not a simple one, I got rid of my EFI to go carb and am happy I did. My car will start right up (with no choke), put down over 400hp NA at the wheels, run low, low 11s, and get over 20mpg. All with an ancient junky carb. Its all in the tuning.

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

It does sound like a colossal waste in this case and just wanted to add I have driven many carbed cars that start like EFI even in the cold.

[70 cutlass 442]

let me know if you need any parts, im doing the opposite and have a trickflow intake, injectors, fuel rails, adjustable FPR, full engine wireharness, computer....... let me know what you may need and i could make you a package deal!!

[70challenger452]

Best bang for the buck is a carb. Still has the lowest prices, greatest flexibility, still makes the most power...and tuned right (which is not that hard), still has great driveability.

I could not agree more!!! About the only thing keeping me from puttting a carb on my truck is starting up at 10 below. Which the shop jeep has no problem doing at work, so maybe I should just do it.

[Waver]

to the op...somthing that I was told and found out with my experience with the 5.0 engines......BBK=Junk.....it isnt any better than a paper weight....you want good quality and performance, go with an accufab tb and spacer, and go with a typhoon, gt40, explorer, trickflow, or eddelbrock intake....enough said...oh and ditch those e7's heads for somthing that actually flows.

[-stew-]

to the op...somthing that I was told and found out with my experience with the 5.0 engines......BBK=Junk.....it isnt any better than a paper weight....you want good quality and performance, go with an accufab tb and spacer, and go with a typhoon, gt40, explorer, trickflow, or eddelbrock intake....enough said...oh and ditch those e7's heads for somthing that actually flows.

WTF, over? Are you referring to BBK intakes, or all bbk parts? I've never heard anything great about that BBK intake, but I've never heard any one bad mouth BBk as a brand. I have no complaints with the BBK products I have (75MM TB, shorty headers, x-pipe, and stb)

Kurty, that video. I came.

[letsrunem]

If you do decide to go efi, I may have everything you need.

[MurphysLaw88GT]

fuck chineese speed parts. Do they have a professional products section at harbor freight yet? Cmon, its cheap, but put American shit on there if you can.

[That_Guy]

i may stick with carb after seeing this thread..

[DurtyKurty]

i may stick with carb after seeing this thread..

I think you should too.

[mr.gone1985]

I wouldn't switch either.

[Karps TA]

Give me 2 more months and I'll give you my opinion. But after fighting tuning issues with carbs over the last 15 years and not being able to figure them out, I decided to give EFI a try.

[That_Guy]

Give me 2 more months and I'll give you my opinion. But after fighting tuning issues with carbs over the last 15 years and not being able to figure them out, I decided to give EFI a try.

im not going to even bother doing it myself ill rope somebody who knows something into doing it. :thumbsup

[Karps TA]

Apparently it's not as hard as I made it out to be. I can fully admit that it's one thing I just was not good at. But even when I paid someone to do it, I ended up with a car that sure ran alot better and was not as finicky during everyday driving. However the car also was slower. Seems to me I could never have it both ways with carbs.