Harley Davidson Seeking Bailout

[Adam Brooks]

http://wallstnation.com/HOG_01212009.html

idk if this was posted or not, surprised local news didn't say anything about it that i saw (bc our news is clearly worthless). HOG also downgraded today on liquidity concerns. The problem is with their financing company and taking losses when customers default on their bikes, Harley takes a hit. They want the FDIC to insure all their loans so if someone defaults, we as taxpayers foot the bill.

And I told the news, we'll see

"
Harley Davidson Seeks Buyers Guarantee From FDIC Submitted by Todd Sullivan on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 20:53.
in
This is just too much...
Sen. Bob Casey Jr. (D- Penn) has asked a federal agency to find Harley-Davidson (HOG) eligible for funds handed out under a federal bailout for financial institutions. In a Jan. 16 letter to Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. chairman Sheila Blair, saying Harley-Davidson recently inquired whether its financing company and subsidiaries -- Harley-Davidson Credit Corp. and Eaglemark Savings Bank -- are eligible for the Temporary Liquidity Guarantee Program, or TLGP.

He said the problem with the economy is related to credit, and Harley's participation in the program would allow more people to get Harley loans to buy motorcycles. "Without the determination (of eligibility) made, it puts their financing company in a much more precarious situation," he said. In October, in an attempt to improve confidence in the banking sector and to improve liquidity for banks, the FDIC started the program to guarantee newly issued unsecured debt of qualifying institutions and guarantee certain noninterest-bearing accounts.
Guarantee debt: Harley spokesman Bob Klein said the program would guarantee unsecured corporate debt against default; Harley would only get federal funds if a customer defaulted on his or her motorcycle loan. Klein said the TLGP is one of several options that Harley-Davidson's financial arm is pursuing "to ensure continued funding of its lending activities" in a challenging economic environment. Lower consumer confidence has affected the motorcycle industry, he said.
The Wisconsin-based company told elected officials in Pennsylvania and Wisconsin about its plans to seek inclusion in the program, Klein said. The company appreciates Casey's support, he said. A recent dealer survey shows that year-over-year retail sales appear to have softened from the third quarter, when Harley-Davidson reported a 15.5 percent drop in U.S. retail sales. The company is expected to report fourth-quarter results Friday.
Now, this is government programs run amok. It is one thing to backstop the debt of the compnay to lower borrowing costs, but to backstop its customers? Insane...
Do we really expect corporations to increase lending standards in an effort to avoid another fiasco like we are going through when taxpayers are backing the loans they are making now? Do we really?
What's next, guaranteeing the debt we use for dishwashers at Home Depot (HD) or Sears (SHLD)?"


Update #2:
"Harley-Davidson (HOG) announced that it would issue $600M of senior unsecured notes. The company will use the proceeds from the notes in order to provide loans to purchasers of its motorcycles. Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway (BRK.A) and Davis Selected Advisers L.P. will each buy 50% of the notes, which will be due in 2014 and will have an annual interest rate of 15% . Harley-Davidson surged $1.70 , or 14.33%, to $13.56 in mid-afternoon trading."


So HOG offers 600mil in debt for sale. meanwhile they are still petitioning to have the FDIC insure their loans. This means that not only did buffet just give them 300 mil, if they get FDIC backing (they wont), taxpayers would then back Buffets purchase for 300 plus any outstanding and future loans on the books to HOG from consumers. Double whammy! Buffet gets 15% annually on the deal and possibly ZERO downside HAHAHAHAHAHAA.

Local news doesn't even have anything on this new "good" news. maybe because they already know about the underlying bad news? Maybe bc 15% is loan sharking!?!?!?! And how do you pay out 15% interest when you're not going to make shit in the next year? Seriously this deal is so bad you can get a better interest rate thru organized crime!


Update #3
Just an update, HOG still broke as a joke..... local news STILL no exposure on this

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p..._Ik&refer=news
Harley Chops Dividend 70% to Boost Cash; Shares Fall (Update2)

By Alan Ohnsman
Feb. 12 (Bloomberg) -- Harley-Davidson Inc. slashed its quarterly dividend by 70 percent, the first cut since at least 1993, to boost cash as slumping sales sap profit. The shares dropped more than 8 percent.
The new dividend will be 10 cents a share, a reduction from 33 cents, and will preserve about $50 million in cash this quarter, Milwaukee-based Harley said today in a statement. It will be payable March 19 to holders of record on March 5.
Harley’s move snapped a string of increases dating to at least 1993, based on Bloomberg data. The biggest U.S. motorcycle maker said Jan. 23 that fourth-quarter earnings fell 58 percent, spurring plans to trim about 11 percent of its workforce and chop 2009 shipments of its namesake-brand bikes by 13 percent.
“We believe the market was largely expecting a reduction,” Tim Conder, an analyst at Wachovia Corp. in St. Louis, wrote in a note today. “The market will ultimately view the dividend cut as positive” because Harley won’t have to raise as much capital for its in-house lending arm, Conder wrote.
Conder, who rates Harley’s shares “market perform” and doesn’t own them, estimates the dividend cut will generate annual cash savings of $213.2 million.
Harley dropped $1.11, or 8.3 percent, to $12.30 at 4 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange. The shares have tumbled 68 percent in the past year.
Separately, Harley’s debt rating was cut to A-, a drop of one grade from A, by Fitch Ratings, which said the move affects $3.2 billion of debt at Harley-Davidson Financial Services and $782 million at the parent company.
Fitch said Harley’s outlook was “negative” and said its downgrade was driven chiefly by weakness at the finance unit.
Moody’s Investors Service on Feb. 3 lowered its rating on the credit arm to A2 from A1. The Fitch and Moody’s ratings are still investment quality.
To contact the reporter on this story: Alan Ohnsman in Los Angeles at aohnsman@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: February 12, 2009 16:21 EST

[Russ Jerome]

Thats crazy, $5000 bikes selling for $20,000....where did all
the profit from the paid off bikes go? The museum?

I've built my own Harley from parts, that has got to be one
of the highest mark up items sold anywhere in the world!

I gotta dig up the companys finance proposal they wrote
me up last year for a FLHTR, like 20% !!!!!!!!!!

[shoooo32]

$20k bikes pay for union salaries. Who in their right mind would pay someone 37 dollars an hour on an assembly line?

[Adam Brooks]

apparently they were listed back in Oct in once of the TARP revisions as an eligible company but they never got a approved.

They've been downgraded all month but here's the downgrade from today:
NEW YORK --(BUSINESS WIRE)-- Fitch Ratings places Harley-Davidson Inc. (NYSE: HOG) and HOG's 100% owned subsidiary, Harley-Davidson Financial Services, Inc. (HDFS) on Rating Watch Negative as follows:
Harley-Davidson Inc
--Issuer Default Rating (IDR) 'A'.
Harley-Davidson Financial Services
--IDR 'A';
--Short-term IDR 'F1';
--Senior unsecured 'A'.
Harley-Davidson Funding Corporation
--Short-term IDR 'F1';
--Commercial paper 'F1';
--Senior unsecured 'A'.
Fitch's actions affect $3.2 billion of debt at HDFS and $182 million of debt at HOG. Due to the existence of a support agreement and demonstrated support by the parent, HDFS' ratings are linked to those of HOG.
The placement on Rating Watch Negative reflects Fitch concerns on the following items:
--Financing and liquidity plan for HDFS in 2009. Fitch's primary funding concerns relate to the company's financing alternatives over the near term. HDFS has two facilities that expire in the next six months. The first is a $500 million ABCP conduit that expires at the end of March. Fitch expects that HDFS will attempt to extend and increase this facility. HOG and HDFS also have a $950 million 364-day credit facility that expires in July. This facility and a $950 million three-year facility are primarily used to support HDFS' commercial paper program and to fund HDFS' lending activities and operations. Fitch is concerned that renewal of the 364-day facility in July 2009 will be challenging and could result in reduced commitments and increased pricing.
--HDFS' ability to continue to support parent company sales at the typical level of approximately 53%-55% of retail volumes. Fitch will also evaluate the likelihood HOG customers can obtain economical financing through other reliable sources.
--Outlook for 2009 sales and margins at HOG's manufacturing operations and higher cash outlays related to pension and restructuring charges. Also the weak economic environment, which could lead to further restructuring actions at HOG if volumes come under additional pressure.
--Outlook for HDFS credit quality through 2009. While Fitch acknowledges the company's fairly benign loss rates to date, Fitch assumes that HDFS' underlying collateral is more discretionary in nature and would rank well below other assets in terms of priority of payment.
--Recently announced management changes at both HOG and HDFS.
HDFS is currently in compliance with all covenants which include: HDFS leverage covenant of 10:1 times (x) debt to equity and a minimum interest coverage ratio at the consolidated HOG level of 2.5:1. The revolver does not contain a material adverse change clause. In addition, HOG must maintain HDFS' fixed-charge coverage at 1.25x and minimum net worth of $40 million .
Fitch expects to meet with HOG's management team and resolve the Rating Watch Negative in the near term.
Fitch's rating definitions and the terms of use of such ratings are available on the agency's public site,
www.fitchratings.com. Published ratings, criteria and methodologies are available from this site, at all times. Fitch's code of conduct, confidentiality, conflicts of interest, affiliate firewall, compliance and other relevant policies and procedures are also available from the 'Code of Conduct' section of this site.

[97z2801ss]

they get like 29 on the assembly line man but yea and people their still complain.... or stare at the celing.

[Russ Jerome]

The basic Harley bagger I want starts at $17,000,
$18,999 and up for better models I would love.

A base Honda Goldwing smacks the pants off the
best FLH made (incuding $30,000 Screaming Eagle)
in every catagory and is light years ahead for less.

I realy hoped the motor company would get there
stuff together, yuppies are'nt going to continue to
buy them forever, its a fad for them and now regular
working guys who used to be there customers cant
afford toys that costly anymore.

[Al]

Hearing this kinda hurts!


The basic Harley bagger I want starts at $17,000,
$18,999 and up for better models I would love.

A base Honda Goldwing smacks the pants off the
best FLH made (incuding $30,000 Screaming Eagle)
in every catagory and is light years ahead for less.

I realy hoped the motor company would get there
stuff together, yuppies are'nt going to continue to
buy them forever, its a fad for them and now regular
working guys who used to be there customers cant
afford toys that costly anymore.

As long as the riders don't request anything more, HD will remain content with their low-rpm torque engines.

IIRC- the best selling motorcycle in the US is still the Sportster.


As far as I can tell, the structure of unions have not adequately adjusted to the times. When some unions were formed, people died shortly after retirement, healthcare was cheap, and the word "frivolous" was lacking from the lexicon of most blue-collar workers.

Prince Valliant knows where this one is headed. I know of a solution that will eliminate the single largest growing exense for unions. It is cheaper than the bailout in the long run too. Not to mention, this is why all manufacturers outside of the US don't have these problems!

[lordairgtar]

I like Harleys. But for what they are, they are way over priced. You can buy a car for 17,000 bucks new. One thing that might go to the wayside here is that they hold value. Can't say that for imported bikes. With the age group of most Harley riders, you can't keep selling them at the current rate. I think when sport bike riders look for a more comfortable bike for touring as they age, will look to Honda's or Yamaha's bigger touring bikes or perhaps Ducati or Motto Guzzi.

[95 TA - The Beast]

Personally, I hope they ******' tank... They have shitty, greedy management, have no idea how to properly engineer or produce a 'modern age' product, and in general am shocked they lasted this long... I mean fuck, for what they make in profits, and have bled off for thier execs and owners, it is sickening with them trying to strong-arm thier workers the way they have done in the past 5-8 years+... It is absoloutly no surprise they are on the chopping block in an economic downturn...

Good riddence... When they are gone does that mean they will finally start ticketing those ******* open-pipe exhausts??? :devil

I still can't believe owners of Harleys get away with as much shit as they do...

[Al]

Personally, I hope they ******' tank... They have shitty, greedy management, have no idea how to properly engineer or produce a 'modern age' product, and in general am shocked they lasted this long... I mean fuck, for what they make in profits, and have bled off for thier execs and owners, it is sickening with them trying to strong-arm thier workers the way they have done in the past 5-8 years+... It is absoloutly no surprise they are on the chopping block in an economic downturn...

Good riddence... When they are gone does that mean they will finally start ticketing those ******* open-pipe exhausts??? :devil

I still can't believe owners of Harleys get away with as much shit as they do...

The way I see it, Harley has perfected an ancient engine design. Kinda goes in line with GM and the pushrod.

[Silver86]

hmmm unions again FTL :banana1:

[Lash]

hmmm unions again FTL :banana1:

Blanket statements FTL

[-stew-]

As long as the riders don't request anything more, HD will remain content with their low-rpm torque engines.


Then please explain why most HD riders dump ~$3000 worth of performance upgrades into their bikes?


The way I see it, Harley has perfected an ancient engine design. Kinda goes in line with GM and the pushrod.

So long as it is a single crank pin motor it will be of a flawed design. Plus they are air cooled. Push rods are not of a flawed design, but rather they are less efficient than OHC.


Blanket statements FTL

Quoted for truth.

[lordairgtar]

Personally, I hope they ******' tank... They have shitty, greedy management, have no idea how to properly engineer or produce a 'modern age' product, and in general am shocked they lasted this long... I mean fuck, for what they make in profits, and have bled off for thier execs and owners, it is sickening with them trying to strong-arm thier workers the way they have done in the past 5-8 years+... It is absoloutly no surprise they are on the chopping block in an economic downturn...

Good riddence... When they are gone does that mean they will finally start ticketing those ******* open-pipe exhausts??? :devil

I still can't believe owners of Harleys get away with as much shit as they do...
Why can't you wish for improvement of the executive culture there? A company tanking is not good for anyone, even you. As we manufacture parts for their subsidiary Buell, them tanking would put me and others out of work. If that happens, I'm coming to live in your house with my GF, her daughter and daughter's husband, one dog and one ferret.:rolf

[nismodave]

Blanket statements FTL

Xs a Billion

[Karps TA]

I think what HD needs to do is plan more expensive anniversary bashes. Maybe do one every 6 months. I thought announcing a bunch of layoffs right before the big party last year was a great business idea. I'm sure those folks that got let go enjoyed seeing the Boss play so much more then a paycheck.

I can only hope that if Briggs has huge layoffs next year, they can first throw a big concert so I can rock out instead of pay my bills.

[Russ Jerome]

Hearing this kinda hurts!





Sorry buddy! Nothing personel. I love an air cooled dinasaur as much as the next guy, when I get off
work I'll scan and post a 20 something yr old Russ
Jerome on his HD for laughs.

My 65+k a year salary doesnt fit the motor company's
criteria for loans so Im probably bitter and bias. Edit:
they will sell me anything...at an incredibly high rate!

[Cryptic]

http://www.ajc.com/business/content/business/stories/2009/01/08/flynt_porn_bailout.html


Larry Flynt and Joe Francis said Wednesday that they are asking Washington for a $5 billion federal bailout, claiming that the porn business is suffering from the soft economy.

[Cryptic]

Cryptic needs mo money for car parts and b!tches. Over night parts from Japan ain't cheap.

[PB86MCSS]

Personally, I hope they ******' tank...

I hope you're just saying that, to hope a company fails especially a large local one like that is absurd to me.

[Lash]

I hope you're just saying that, to hope a company fails especially a large local one like that is absurd to me.

That would probably tank the economy in this area. Unemployment would be through the roof.

[95 TA - The Beast]

That would probably tank the economy in this area. Unemployment would be through the roof.

You are SERIOUSLY kidding... One company going under will NOT tank a city, not unless the ENTIRE city is built on that single enterprise (as is such the case with Detroit and the Big 3)...

Milwaukee is much more diversified than just a single company the size of HD... Hell HD is a lot more than just here, so the impact is NOT all local... Besides, the effect would be felt by the entire state, not just this area...

The effect would be 'felt' in the area, no doubt, but it would be far from 'tanking' Milwaukee... Did Milwaukee 'tank' when AOSmith closed down? Or when how many other companies have downsized? Gotta thank all teh Repub schmucks in Washington that gave tax breaks to move jobs overseas and made lax import policies to allow business owners to reap in record profits instead of increasing import taxes as well as an tax increase for those outsourcing to save a buck... My view here, keep the jobs here and give incentives to do just that, penalize those that want to outsource to other countries...

Some will bitch that the bottom line is all that matters and companies will jsut up and leave the US then, that for fact would not be the case if you also increased the import taxation. That just means the products made here would be sold here cheaper. Now there will be a cry of outrageous inflation, but what would you rather have, more expensive products, but jobs and wages decent here and lower taxes, or what we have now which is the exact opposite, with *some* cheaper imported products, less jobs here, lower wages and higher taxes... It is all a balancing game, one way society's quality of living goes up with people getting 'not as rich as quick', or what we have now with society being depressed and the 'rich getting richer quicker'...

Honestly, for what HD charges for thier products is a raping, especially considering they have been looking to outsource to other countries for a while (which is BS as they are touted as all 'American'), have lowered thier workers wages, have a shitty engineering for the way they develop products, and in general have this aire of 'entitlement' becuase there is a parade for the company by thier fan-base... If they were really doing that bad, then don't build a museum, don't do all the public BS and build a better product, offer it at a better price-point and sell as many as you can produce... Instead the economy stalls and they are asking for a handout, even though they should have a ton of capital leftover, but instead they blew it all while the ride was good and management/owners that bleed out the companies coffers for personal gain... Sounds like an irresponsible individual that makes good money, but blows it all along the way and then wants everyone else to pay for his mansion and toys because he can no longer afford them... Oh, and we should consider doing this for the guy because he has a ton of maids, porters, hair stylists, fashion designers, booze suppliers, drug suppliers and everything else that will be affected if he can no longer party like a rockstar???

Personally everyone should start taking responsibility for thier decisions across the board, including making responsible those that profiteered along the way and making those people bankrupt first and foremost in ALL industries, including those government officials that profiteered over the past 8 years (hmm, wonder how much Bush's net worth increased while he was in office??? If I remember correctly he was by far the highest gaining president in history, and there is no way his personal greed didn't play into his decisions as president)... But it won't happen, it is 'in the past' and those responsible for making those responsible are standing in too much gasoline themselves to be striking matches to burn anyone at the stake... :mad:

And sorry, but it also comes down to every single homeowner that was stupid enough to believe thier homes could go up in market value above 50-80% in only 3-5 years... Shame on every single one that 'dipped' into that overinflated and fraudulent 'equity' for personal gain, as you have reaped what you've sown. Every single one is a contributor to the state we are in... What, you didn't think that the market would eventually 'correct' itself and *GASP* home values may actually drop down to the levels they *SHOULD* be at given the cost of living, salaries, etc??? (And for reference they are still not 'where they need to be')

[Lash]

'Tank' probably is a little strong...lol....but....
You honestly don't think HD shutting down would have a a pretty big impact on an already struggling Milwaukee economy????
The economic situation wasn't half as bad when AO shut down.

I agree with the rest of your post though. :)

[Adam Brooks]

The most alarming thing about their request to have the FDIC insure all of their loans, is that this effectively open the doors for HD to make super shitty loans to people who otherwise shouldn't be approved to finance anything. If and when the person defaults on their loan, there is zero damage done to HD because the taxpayers (through the FDIC) are footing the bill.

Compare this to the sub prime crisis. This would be like every sub prime lender being backed by the federal government. You could invent any type of lending criteria you'd want (none of it will ever be audited, there isn't enough man power to do that) and it wouldn't matter because you have ZERO risk of failing. It would enable you to sell a house to ANYONE. As we've learned, that's a dangerous proposition.

The news still hasn't picked up on this. Time to call more stations. Imo this is HUGE news for the state and people need to know and understand what's going on here.

I don't know about you, but i sure as hell don't trust HD with my money and have zero interesting in backing their judgment of credit worthiness especially during a time of sever economic uncertainly. I just don't believe the risk/reward is in my favor that people will be able to repay, and neither should you. FDIC is to protect deposits in BANKS not to protect consumer lending.

just spoke w wisn and fox6 and explained this to them. I didn't explain in to tmj4, i guess i over estimated their ability to figure out what is really going on with this. So we'll see what happens

[95 TA - The Beast]

Actually, I missed the FDIC-entanglment implications... GOOD GODS MAN!!!

If they do that for them, then expect every single 'special consideration' company to apply for the same 'protection'... There is no way in hell we would ever survive that...

[Sprayaway Fox]

The most reliable Harley bike I saw had a Yamaha rocket engine in it.

Why pay for a 50 dollars for a cheesburger when you get a steak for the same price?

[formul8]

Much to the chagrin of H-D lovers everywhere, but they don't deserve a bailout.

Sorry, folks.

[penji04]

Just so theirs no confusion Harley Davidson employs union workers. The unions have no say in the financial decisions Harley makes.

[lordairgtar]

As someone who doesn't think the government should bail out companies, I think they should succeed or fail on their own merits. When the financial company executives just gave them selves bonuses and vacations, that is wrong and totally treasonous in my opinion. But saying a company should tank is just a wrong and mean thing to say. I think there is a little bit more behind your reasoning as it seems personal. Whatever you may think about the leaders of a company, they are still employing everyday people like you and I. My own company is suffering in this weak economy and we supply to many different larger companies like Teledyne, Buell, Raytheon, Muth, GE Medical, Emageon, AAA Railroad and aircraft, DeCrane Aerospace, Harley, Honda, Chrysler and many others. All these companies are slowing down or downsizing. It's a domino effect and it's affecting everyone. We are working a four day work week and the following week is off. Some of the crew alternates between one week and the other. An example of how this affects me is I was going to upgrade my own DJ service with new amps and mixers with my tax refund, but now I have to hold on that incase I have to pay the rent. I don't know what a lot of you guys do for a living but I hope this doesn't happen top you. Excuse me while I open another bottle of scotch and write some letters to my so-called elected officials on this matter.

[Al]

Then please explain why most HD riders dump ~$3000 worth of performance upgrades into their bikes?

Not a real HP gain, IMO. It seems to be more about noise, chrome, and uniqueness. But for the serious people, they end up losing the original temperment of the bike that keeps sales going.


So long as it is a single crank pin motor it will be of a flawed design. Plus they are air cooled. Push rods are not of a flawed design, but rather they are less efficient than OHC.

Odd-fire engines are not flawed.
Air cooled engines are not flawed.
There are many advantages to this design. Most are minor, but they still exist.

What is flawed is the perception that Harley still has the same quality standards as they did back in the AMF days.

HD builds quality bikes now. There is an occasional recall, such as the fuel filter recall, but this happens to all companies

Also, be careful with the word "efficient" ie: a z06 makes more than double power than a lotus elise and weighs more too. Yet, it is only off by 1 mpg.
C'mon! We are comparing a 7.0L monstrosity to a 1.8L Toyota engine and they only differ by 1 mpg?
new question: what is efficiency?

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

I think the less living wage paying union jobs like A.O.S., A-C, Pabst, Schlitz, Kearney and Trecker, Louis Allis, Sqaure D, Hevi-Duty, Globe Battery and the other dozens of dead baron names that have left Milwaukee have had a big impact on that city. Those gangbangers we all complain about and hate use to be able to drop out of school and get a "decent" job offer or offers in a single day that would pay a living wage and enough to buy a car, roof over the head and feed some kids. Now those folks cant get a job and rely on da gubmint for a check and some cheese. If that hasn't affected Milwaukee I don't know what has.
Oh I forgot city gubmint in MKE has ruinded the city, coupled with those restless bangers.

Harley dont deserve the money give it to those pilfering schmucks on Wall St. :rolleyes:

[wrath]

One of my friends does repos. He has never repoed an import bike but he repos at least 1 Harley a month. It's probably worse now (last time I talked to him was September).

Harley makes bad decisions for a living. It's finally catching up to them. Sure, they have a cult following much like Apple... but Apple has the product to back it up.

I don't understand how people who essentially tell what other people to do and make decisions should be paid more than $100k/year. Unless they bring innovation/revenue to the company nobody that tells other people what to do is worth $100k/year. They're just one more person not earning their keep.


The worst part about Harley is that they had no reason to be caught with their pants down unlike the automobile manufacturers. All the auto manufacturers were trying to change... Harley was just getting fatter, lazier, sloppier, and less productive as people kept using their HELOCs and 600 credit score to buy their bikes.


It's going to be bad for Harley for quite a while. They'll still sell accessories and bikes, but not like they used to. It's a REALLY EXPENSIVE discretionary purchase, like a male version of jewelry. Speaking of which, you'll probably see Kesslers go under also as each location has 8 people standing around trying to resell bland diamonds with no customers.

[-stew-]

Harley makes bad decisions for a living.

Quote of the week.




I don't understand how people who essentially tell what other people to do and make decisions should be paid more than $100k/year. Unless they bring innovation/revenue to the company nobody that tells other people what to do is worth $100k/year. They're just one more person not earning their keep.


That is the most un-American thing I've read in thirteen days. Who are you (or the government, because this thinking opens the door to legislate this) to say what another persons worth is in their workplace? The only thing that should limit ones wage should be the workers ability to negotiate their wage with their employer.

[Rocket Power]

That is the most un-American thing I've read in thirteen days. Who are you (or the government, because this thinking opens the door to legislate this) to say what another persons worth is in their workplace? The only thing that should limit ones wage should be the workers ability to negotiate their wage with their employer.
Quoted for truth.
You are worth what someone is willing to pay for your services. That works both ways, if your skills are worth $40/hr today , but only $20/hr next week, so be it. Has anyone ever complained because their raise was too much?

[wrath]

That is the most un-American thing I've read in thirteen days. Who are you (or the government, because this thinking opens the door to legislate this) to say what another persons worth is in their workplace? The only thing that should limit ones wage should be the workers ability to negotiate their wage with their employer.

I was hoping for the most un-American thing in a year.

It is unreasonable that someone that contributes nothing to a business other than decision making to be paid so much. I think most companies are realizing this. You read in the newspaper and intarweb blogs about people who used to make six figures no longer making that, if they have a job. Then you find out what they used to do for a living: make decisions. Tool workers (the people that actually do something whether it be machining aluminum, designing world-class products, or counting dollars) actually provide some benefit to the company. The neat thing is that they also can make decisions.

I agree: How much you make should be entirely based on what you can negotiate with your employer. If you ask for too much for what you provide you end up being the tallest blade of grass. Last in, first out (LIFO) doesn't always apply as many people are finding out. Unless you own the company there is always another person up the chain to give you a pink slip. Take a look on Monster, Hotjobs, Dice, et cetera and let me know how many management jobs there are out there. While in this economy I could easily find another job elsewhere making more money I'm perfectly happy with my toolworker utility job... because I know it's going to be there tomorrow. Sure, I'd like to make more money someday by being a manager but not until I've already paid everything off I own and can handle not having a job for 6-12 months.

[-stew-]

I was hoping for the most un-American thing in a year.


With Dems in control, a lot of un-American things are being said. Taking the years prize is gonna be a tall order to fill.



It is unreasonable that someone that contributes nothing to a business other than decision making to be paid so much. I think most companies are realizing this. You read in the newspaper and intarweb blogs about people who used to make six figures no longer making that, if they have a job. Then you find out what they used to do for a living: make decisions. Tool workers (the people that actually do something whether it be machining aluminum, designing world-class products, or counting dollars) actually provide some benefit to the company. The neat thing is that they also can make decisions.



Typical class envy from a worker bee. Knowing enough to take an aspirin when you have a head ache does not make you a brain surgeon. Any one can *AH* decision. It takes well educated, experienced, and well compensated to make big, important, costly decisions.



While in this economy I could easily find another job elsewhere making more money I'm perfectly happy with my toolworker utility job... because I know it's going to be there tomorrow.


Shenanigans. What sector of the workplace are you in that you are confident you have a secure job?

[nismodave]

Didnt Harley get bailed out before, in the 80s?

[wrath]

Typical class envy from a worker bee. Knowing enough to take an aspirin when you have a head ache does not make you a brain surgeon. Any one can *AH* decision. It takes well educated, experienced, and well compensated to make big, important, costly decisions.

Those decisions bring innovation and/or revenue and/or cost savings. Those who simply make decisions are the ones I'm talking about. The ones that decide whether Jack or Jill work on project A or B or get fired. Or institute some retarded Jobs program to benchmark the transactions of the business. These people aren't that valuable. If all you do is have a bunch of worker bees under you that provide information to you so you can make decisions, you're not that valuable. Which is why these people don't have jobs right now.

The only envy I have is that they make more money than I do. I don't want to do what they do. I work to live, not live to work.


Shenanigans. What sector of the workplace are you in that you are confident you have a secure job?

I work at an utility company as an IT person. I've interviewed as recent as two weeks ago and was offered a job that makes $9600/year more than I make today at what I would consider a rinky-dink company. In December I was offered even more at a couple other local larger (multiple offices > 500) players. My boss told me when I was hired that it was my responsibility to make sure that I am competitively compensated. So I've done so. Job security is worth a lot to me. The environment is worth even more. I've got myself an awesome environment to work in with top-of-the-line people and my job is pretty secure. It's the same reason that I used to work for an University. Nobody gets laid off at an University unless you are completely worthless. But just like the government sector, utility sector, and others, you aren't going to get rich in education.

[Lash]

Quote of the week.



That is the most un-American thing I've read in thirteen days. Who are you (or the government, because this thinking opens the door to legislate this) to say what another persons worth is in their workplace? The only thing that should limit ones wage should be the workers ability to negotiate their wage with their employer.

Good post!

[lordairgtar]

It takes well educated, experienced, and well compensated to make big, important, costly decisions.


You mean like the politicians?:devil

[Adam Brooks]

get this shit:

"Harley-Davidson (HOG) announced that it would issue $600M of senior unsecured notes. The company will use the proceeds from the notes in order to provide loans to purchasers of its motorcycles. Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway (BRK.A) and Davis Selected Advisers L.P. will each buy 50% of the notes, which will be due in 2014 and will have an annual interest rate of 15% . Harley-Davidson surged $1.70 , or 14.33%, to $13.56 in mid-afternoon trading."


So HOG offers 600mil in debt for sale. meanwhile they are still petitioning to have the FDIC insure their loans. This means that not only did buffet just give them 300 mil, if they get FDIC backing (they wont), taxpayers would then back Buffets purchase for 300 plus any outstanding and future loans on the books to HOG from consumers. Double whammy! Buffet gets 15% annually on the deal and possibly ZERO downside HAHAHAHAHAHAA.

Local news doesn't even have anything on this new "good" news. maybe because they already know about the underlying bad news? Maybe bc 15% is loan sharking!?!?!?! And how do you pay out 15% interest when you're not going to make shit in the next year? Seriously this deal is so bad you can get a better interest rate thru organized crime!

[95 TA - The Beast]

No doubt that is total BS!

I mean, honestly, just doing some quick math, if they are 5 year notes, with a 15%/yr, that is basically doubling thier money in 5 years... How the hell does HD EVER expect to pay ANYONE back that kind of cash???

But then again, you mentioned they are unsecured, so, HD can tank, take down those notes with them and those that bought them can just take the loss on thier tax liability, which, for someone like Buffet, means that the taxpayers are ultimately going to be stuck paying the note values WITH INTEREST!!! :fire

G-Damn rich fucks just keep on taking and taking don't they??? :mad:

[Adam Brooks]

They most likely will be able to convert the unsecured debt to equity whenever they want and dump it on the open market.

[70 cutlass 442]

I wonder if yamaha, honda, or suzuki has ever asked their government for a bailout?

[95 TA - The Beast]

They most likely will be able to convert the unsecured debt to equity whenever they want and dump it on the open market.

But any way you look at it, is there a SNOWBALLS CHANCE IN HELL of HD making good on those notes???

Honestly, if this isn't a sign that they intend to ******* tank, what is there?

I mean do they expect to actually just 'magically' turn this into common stock at some point, like thier company just will automagically revalue at plus whatever those notes end up being (best case, $600mil, worst-case $1.2bil)???

I mean fawk, why the hell not jsut overinflate your company, perfect excuse to head to the shitter whenever you want...

[Al]

I wonder if yamaha, honda, or suzuki has ever asked their government for a bailout?

their government takes care of certain expenses in a different way. If our government functioned in a similar manner, our cars and motorcycles could be more competetively priced.

ie; #1: healthcare.

We only spend twice as much as they do on it.

[Adam Brooks]

Just an update, HOG still broke as a joke..... local news STILL no exposure on this

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=ajBURGwg8_Ik&refer=news
Harley Chops Dividend 70% to Boost Cash; Shares Fall (Update2)

By Alan Ohnsman
Feb. 12 (Bloomberg) -- Harley-Davidson Inc. (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=HOG%3AUS) slashed its quarterly dividend by 70 percent, the first cut since at least 1993, to boost cash as slumping sales sap profit. The shares dropped more than 8 percent.
The new dividend (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=HOG%3AUS) will be 10 cents a share, a reduction from 33 cents, and will preserve about $50 million in cash this quarter, Milwaukee-based Harley said today in a statement. It will be payable March 19 to holders of record on March 5.
Harley’s move snapped a string of increases dating to at least 1993, based on Bloomberg data. The biggest U.S. motorcycle maker said Jan. 23 that fourth-quarter earnings fell 58 percent, spurring plans to trim about 11 percent of its workforce (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=HOG%3AUS) and chop 2009 shipments of its namesake-brand bikes by 13 percent.
“We believe the market was largely expecting a reduction,” Tim Conder (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Tim+Conder&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1), an analyst at Wachovia Corp. in St. Louis, wrote in a note today. “The market will ultimately view the dividend cut as positive” because Harley won’t have to raise as much capital for its in-house lending arm, Conder wrote.
Conder, who rates (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=HOG%3AUS) Harley’s shares “market perform” and doesn’t own them, estimates the dividend cut will generate annual cash savings of $213.2 million.
Harley dropped $1.11, or 8.3 percent, to $12.30 at 4 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange. The shares have tumbled 68 percent in the past year.
Separately, Harley’s debt (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=HOG%3AUS) rating was cut to A-, a drop of one grade from A, by Fitch Ratings, which said the move affects $3.2 billion of debt at Harley-Davidson Financial Services and $782 million at the parent company.
Fitch said Harley’s outlook was “negative” and said its downgrade was driven chiefly by weakness at the finance unit.
Moody’s Investors Service on Feb. 3 lowered its rating on the credit arm to A2 from A1. The Fitch and Moody’s ratings are still investment quality.
To contact the reporter on this story: Alan Ohnsman (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Alan+Ohnsman&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1) in Los Angeles at aohnsman@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: February 12, 2009 16:21 EST

[Crawlin]

Willie G just came in the other day to look into picking up a brand new Jeep SRT8 :)

Can't be TOO rough, hahaha

[Adam Brooks]

of course he did, he scammed warren out of 600mil. you should have told him to buy 2

[Russ Jerome]

Harley has plants all over, PA,NY,MO...all over. I would
be interested in the breakdown accros the US as far as
where all the "Milwaukee Iron" money goes. We build
sportster up here right? Fat Cats up off 45 and more
downtown?

Im still not anti HD even though they want to rape me
buying one but "Quality product" came up on one of the
posts here. Have you sat on a 2008 or newer emmisions
legal twin cam recently? Holy crap the people who can
afford them are whining for a reason, those things are
ROACHING HOT! I didnt have a heat gun with but my
old 1200FXR was a cold potato in July next to these things.

Im trying not to bash them, I realy want a new FLTRI but
its just not a bike for a blue collar father with kids in school
anymore, my boss' have them.....they would not have been
caught dead on one years ago when I rode...uncool then!

[Al]

Harley has plants all over, PA,NY,MO...all over. I would
be interested in the breakdown accros the US as far as
where all the "Milwaukee Iron" money goes. We build
sportster up here right? Fat Cats up off 45 and more
downtown?

I know it is unfortunate that the best selling bike in the US is made in Milwaukee.


Im still not anti HD even though they want to rape me
buying one but "Quality product" came up on one of the
posts here. Have you sat on a 2008 or newer emmisions
legal twin cam recently? Holy crap the people who can
afford them are whining for a reason, those things are
ROACHING HOT! I didnt have a heat gun with but my
old 1200FXR was a cold potato in July next to these things.

Cm'on. They are not that hot. Sitting in the sun is what causes most of the burn.


Im trying not to bash them, I realy want a new FLTRI but
its just not a bike for a blue collar father with kids in school
anymore, my boss' have them.....they would not have been
caught dead on one years ago when I rode...uncool then!

I agree that the costs are getting out of hand. HD bikes are extremely simple machines and their prices should reflect that. I bet an independent company could manufacture a similar product which utilizes the same design criteria and sell it at half the price and still make a profit.

My Bad, it already happened. They are called Victory Motorcycles.

[lordairgtar]

You could practically build your own with motors from SS or someone else. Everything is available from the after market from frames to fairings.

[juicedimpss]

You could practically build your own with motors from SS or someone else. Everything is available from the after market from frames to fairings.

it tough to get insurance on homebuilt bikes these days

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

Pretty sure all Harley builds in Milwaukee is engines and transmissions.
Sportster=KCMO, York PA is Harleys biggest plant.

[Russ Jerome]

Cm'on. They are not that hot. Sitting in the sun is what causes most of the burn.





Im not talking sporties here Im talking twin cam big twins.
Its actualy painfull to ride, love it or hate it.
http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/harley-davidson-c78003.html
Obviously that and other threads go on for days.
http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/efi-discussion/141733-harley-davidson-2008-2009-closed-loop-efi.html
Illegal tampering is helping cool em down, unfortunatly
it also voids the warranty. There are some things the dealer
can do to cool them but its expensive as hell and doesnt
drop the exhaust temp nearly as well as custom cals.
http://hdforums.com/forum/screamin-eagle-cvo-models/66301-new-110-real-hot.html
They tried killing the rear cylinder when clutch is pulled in
but its not realy helping. Another "update" to the 09's was
a piece of tin jammed in the seat to try and send the heat
away.....strong engineering update!

Not much they can do, Gov wants emmisons and Harley
wants the design and tooling of a 1908 motor. You knew
the day would come, air cooled saga is closing sooner or
later.

[turbogarrett]

Harley's union = bad for buisness, makes all area unions look bad imo.

[kevcuda]

Your just paying for a name and to say you have a Harley.. What a joke

[Irish]

Your just paying for a name and to say you have a Harley.. What a joke

A four year old thread lolz

[GTSLOW]

Wow...... :stare