Per MSN home page

[Reverend Cooper]

Israeli tanks and troops have crossed into gaza.

[nismodave]

Kick some ass, boys!!!!

[STANMAN]

Kick some ass, boys!!!!

And don't stop until the whole middle east is "Israel", save us the trouble.

[Prince Valiant]

You got to hand it to Isreal...they always have a strong self-assurance that what they are doing is the RIGHT thing even when they're "friends" are publicly urging restraint.

hope they don't breakdown like the did against Hezbollah in Lebanon...see it through. One good thing was they already off-ed the leader of Hamas.

[That_Guy]

You got to hand it to Isreal...they always have a strong self-assurance that what they are doing is the RIGHT thing even when they're "friends" are publicly urging restraint.

hope they don't breakdown like the did against Hezbollah in Lebanon...see it through. One good thing was they already off-ed the leader of Hamas.


i have a jewish friend who served here in the marines when his contract was up and his grand father "a Israeli captain" talked him into enlisting over there. he was there for a year and is now a high ranking officer. i had talked to him about a week ago and word back then was they where going to go in and just steam roll them. An act that he said hamas wouldnt expect of them. hamas was banking on them just firing rockets back and forth then callling for peace

[PureSound15]

oh good! ill have some war action to follow while im laying on the beach in florida all week!

im very curious to see what happens and I agree with prince - now that they've taken the initiative I hope some persistence follows.

[Reverend Cooper]

they need to go right down the middle and seperate gaza,they have 4 fronts to work with and basically split off communication and roads then set up permabases

[Goat Roper]

Hamas kicked their ass last time, I somehow doubt they will have the same luck this time. Isreal learned the hard way before, hence all the air bombardment before hand. They have elections coming up so the ruling party wants a good show. Wonder who they learned that one from :rolf

[That_Guy]

they need to go right down the middle and seperate gaza,they have 4 fronts to work with and basically split off communication and roads then set up permabases

my buddy said that they are going to take no hostages...

[Prince Valiant]

Hamas kicked their ass last time, I somehow doubt they will have the same luck this time. Really?

Maybe you misremember...Hezbollah was the foe, for one. Hamas and Hezbollah aren't one in the same...though both are defacto proxies of Iran. Hezbollah though enjoys greater and more open support...and an easier supply line into it's coffers than does hamas.

two, Israel didn't get their "butts kicked", instead, they simply didn't accomplish what they set out to do...in terms of casualties, Hezbollah suffered FAR more than did Israel.

Had Israel had the fortitude THEN to see it through, they would have won quite handily. Instead, the resistance was greater than anticipated as Hezbollah forces were far more entrenched than they expected...and thus doubt was created right away in the mission...leading to dissent among both leaders amongst the gov't and within their military brass.

They have elections coming up so the ruling party wants a good show.
Yes, that can be the only reason for doing this. Any reasonable country would tolerate a bombardment of missiles (not "rockets") totalling 100+/day.

Why are they doing this now? Israel had a cease-fire agreement with Hamas. Israel would hold off any military incursions into Gaza, Hamas would in turn, stop firing these missiles.

Well, Hamas only slowed the firing of missiles...from 80-100/day down to roughly 30/week or so.

As the cease-fire term was expiring, Hamas refused to extend the agreement...and quickly escalated the number of missiles back up again. Fully three weeks later, Israel chose to respond.

And actually, this action bodes poorly for the ruling Kadima party because there is a sense that if a protracted military engagement is needed (and they are saying it will be), then they'll probably look to former PM Benjamin Netanyahu...thus the ruling party may in fact, be shooting themselves in the foot with this action.

[Goat Roper]

Maybe you misremember...Hezbollah was the foe, for one. Hamas and Hezbollah aren't one in the same...though both are defacto proxies of Iran. Hezbollah though enjoys greater and more open support...and an easier supply line into it's coffers than does hamas.

Yes it was Hezbollah, not Hamas, too much reading for me lately. They did make the mistake of sending troops in early before softening up positions and did not fair NEAR as well as most would have thought. They were disorganized and not well prepared. Hezbollah was far more prepared and entrenched than Israel counted on and suffered dearly for it, just as you stated. Hezbollah casualties were far more than Israels but Israel's were far more than most expected and their leaders suffered the consequences. That in of itself was a victory for Hezbollah.

Point being, like I said, they learned not to take these guys for granted anymore.

Both Hamas and Hezbollah are not representing the Palentinians in the most productive manner, to them it has been game on since 1948.

The Likud party in power would not be any good for anyone. The only real solution here is the creation of a palestinian state with appropriate borders, the Likud party would have a difficult time doing that but with Hamas at the wheel on the other side it won't fly either. Over 60 years since the zionist state was created and we still have this mess.

Suggested reading is "The Lemon Tree", fantastic book on both sides of this struggle.

[Prince Valiant]

Point being, like I said, they learned not to take these guys for granted anymore.Actually, you said Israel got their butt kicked. You cynically implied that the only reason they were going in now was so the ruling party could maintain their power. Your post was actually remarkably clear about this.

Both Hamas and Hezbollah are not representing the Palentinians in the most productive manner, to them it has been game on since 1948.They aren't representing palestinians at all...they are using them.


The only real solution here is the creation of a palestinian state with appropriate bordersWhat's galling is that since 2005, the Gaza strip has essentially been a "palestianian state" in that Israel removed all it's settlers (forcibly and quite unpopularly I might add), removed all military presence as well. Heck, they even left the remnants of the settlers, including very productive greenhouses from which could have produced a substantial amount of food for the palestians within Gaza...did Hamas even consider using these for the betterment or to help provide? Nope...they were destroyed mere hours after settlers were removed.

Hamas had sovereignty over Gaza (something the palestinians NEVER had from either egypt, jordan, nor the turks). Did they build hospitals? Courts? Roads? Establish farms? Nope. Nothing...they built the world largest terrorist camp...one that unfortunately holds ~1.5 million people hostage.

The REAL solution is to make Hamas insubstantial...because while you state Likud could not negotiate a palestinian state with hamas, it implies that someone else could. However, Kadima HAS, and pretty much every Israeli party would effectively bat zero against these guys...why? Hamas has but one goal...the obliteration of Israel. Hamas has been pretty open and honest about it.

What's significant is that the Fatah party has been openly denouncing Hamas as well, blaming them (correctly) for the current violence. Many denounce the palestinian people because, well, they elected Hamas, right? Thing is, Hamas is a bunch of thugs who are not above using intimidation and violence against their own people to help ensure their victory in said elections.

Hopefully israel can make Hamas go the way of the dodo...thus paving the way for the more moderate (but far from holy) Fatah to make a return...THEN one can begin to hope for real negotiations that MIGHT pave the way for a peaceful coexistence.

[lordairgtar]

I saw on the news some protesters against Isreal's latest action. These ass clowns are also blaming the US because we support Isreal. They are so freaking concerned about Isreal's missiles hitting civilians, yet not one peep was heard from these idiots when Hamas was lobbing rockets into Isreal. This is just more of the anti-US crowd's bleating nonsense like the sheep they are.

[Goat Roper]

Actually, you said Israel got their butt kicked. You cynically implied that the only reason they were going in now was so the ruling party could maintain their power. Your post was actually remarkably clear about this.

The perception of the 2006 Lebanese incursion by many Isrealis is that they did get whooped. Isreal is supposed to be the unstoppable force in the region, Hezbollah slowed them to a trickle and created far more casualties than was to ever be expected. In the region any Isreali action that does not have an undeniable victory at the end is a loss as it emboldens those fighting against them.

And yes, I was very clear on THAT point and still believe it to be true.



They aren't representing palestinians at all...they are using them.

Agreed but they are still the elected party of rule there by making them reps even if people distance themselves from them.


What's galling is that since 2005, the Gaza strip has essentially been a "palestianian state" in that Israel removed all it's settlers (forcibly and quite unpopularly I might add), removed all military presence as well.

If my memory serves me correctly they removed all settlements within Gaza and 4 or 5 from the West Bank. Not incredibly popular with the hardliners at all.

To say that the Palestinians have autonomy is like saying that American Indians were sovereign nations within the US. Yes, they have the ability to make decisions but at anytime Israel can (and will) do as it pleases.

There will never be any peace with Hamas at the wheel. There will never be any peace as long as Israel holds land within the armistice borders. But for a few there will be no peace without Israel being removed from the map and that will always be a cause of fighting.

There is no "good" solution to any of this, 60 years of this shit is proof of that. All those years ago bad decisions were made by both sides that are still cause for bloodshed today, we will not see a real peace in our lifetimes I would guess.

[Goat Roper]

I saw on the news some protesters against Isreal's latest action. These ass clowns are also blaming the US because we support Isreal. They are so freaking concerned about Isreal's missiles hitting civilians, yet not one peep was heard from these idiots when Hamas was lobbing rockets into Isreal. This is just more of the anti-US crowd's bleating nonsense like the sheep they are.

Anytime you get Israel doing something the Arabs do not like you will see protests against the US for our support of Israel. It would be like protesting lung cancer without blaming cigarettes.

Their beef is proportionate response. They see it as lobbing a firecracker over a wall (they are crude with no real ability to target) and getting a laser guided bomb in return. Right or wrong, thats the thought pattern.

[That_Guy]

Anytime you get Israel doing something the Arabs do not like you will see protests against the US for our support of Israel. It would be like protesting lung cancer without blaming cigarettes.

Their beef is proportionate response. They see it as lobbing a firecracker over a wall (they are crude with no real ability to target) and getting a laser guided bomb in return. Right or wrong, thats the thought pattern.

if somebody shot at you with a 22. and you had a 50cal im sure you would smokem

[Prince Valiant]

Anytime you get Israel doing something the Arabs do not like you will see protests against the US for our support of Israel. It would be like protesting lung cancer without blaming cigarettes.This is silly. So your saying all the Israel's actions are the direct result of US involvement? Not the highly explosive "firecrackers" aimed NOT at military targets, but toward civilians? You know, those "firecrackers" that they pack with ball-bearings to maximize damage? Those "firecrackers" that result in many staying in actual bomb shelters? Those "firecrackers" that largely destroyed an Israeli school that it hit, and causing massive damage to the homes around it? Those "firecrackers" originally developed by the former Soviet Union, now supplied by Iran?

This might be how the arabs see it...but certainly one hopes it's not how you see it.

It does beg the question though...can Brad (underpsi) supply me with these "firecrackers"?

Their beef is proportionate response. This is what they say their beef is...it's what makes them seem reasonable...but it's all a sham. Their beef is Israels existence. They wish to use the "disproportionate response" shell game to bring public opinion further against Israel so as to further isolate them by eroding what little support they have in Europe and chip away at the support they have from the US. Thus, this will hopefully weaken Israel to the point that they can no longer defend themselves and cease to exist.

The game is always the same. 1) provoke israel...via suicide bombings, assassinations, lobbing rockets. 2) Engage when Israel responds 3) play the part of a poor helpless victim 4) wait for world pressure comes down on Israel to force a cease fire 5) Repeat step one.

Furthermore, you continue to incorrectly maintain that this is a pattern of violence has been established for 60 years...it's actually quite longer. Arabs have been attacking Jews in the area since the early 1900's and before the creation of Israel.

One never "proportionately" responds. They respond with what is needed to achieve the objective (destroy Hamas missile installations, make it near impossible to resupply, and destroy the Hamas "security" forces) in as timely a manner as possible. Otherwise you're left with ongoing low-grade warfare that resolves nothing.


They are so freaking concerned about Isreal's missiles hitting civilians, .
What's really amazing is that Israel even gives up the element of surprise by sending out text messages in arabic telling those that if they live in or near houses or area known to hold weapons (easy, since they're fired from population centers) to get out to help minimize civillian casualties. They did this against Hezbollah as well...

BUT, it really is proving true that the only thing better to Hamas than a dead Jew is a dead innocent palestinian...hence the embedment next to schools, within population centers etc.

Given that, it's quite remarkable that Israel has been able to ensure that the vast majority of those killed weren't civillians, but Hamas foot soldiers. And yes...this is only possible due to the addvancement of the weapons WE provided them.

[lordairgtar]

Anytime you get Israel doing something the Arabs do not like you will see protests against the US for our support of Israel. It would be like protesting lung cancer without blaming cigarettes.


But these were Americans protesting. That's what I don't get.