Auto Bailout=Rejected

[subliminal1284]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/meltdown_autos

Turned down because the UAW refused to re negotiate their pay rates.

[brotherbenn83]

"Why should we work for less money, when we could be UNEMPLOYED INSTEAD?"

Great Job UAW!!!

[VroomPshhTsi]

so it's their own fault they are out of jobs really soon... better to work for lower wages than nothing at all, now they are all going to go on unemployment and drain even more money out of our economy... fack this

lose-lose

[juicedimpss]

so it's their own fault they are out of jobs really soon... better to work for lower wages than nothing at all, now they are all going to go on unemployment and drain even more money out of our economy... fack this

lose-lose

i can see both sides to that arguement. I mean really,thats what the union is there for,to keep workers wages on par.

[jamest]

The concessions the UAW would have made would have put their wages on par with Toyota and Honda factory workers (here in the US). Now they can't have that can they.

[VroomPshhTsi]

Well I think it depends on how big of a cut they were talking about. Was it 10%? 25? More?

[juicedimpss]

Well I think it depends on how big of a cut they were talking about. Was it 10%? 25? More?

im guessing it was significant.

[juicedimpss]

The concessions the UAW would have made would have put their wages on par with Toyota and Honda factory workers (here in the US). Now they can't have that can they.

truthfully,if you were working a union job for the last 20 years,would you be prepared to take a pay cut,rather than your yearly cost of living raise?


remember guys,the more you make,the higher your spending habits generally are..

[VroomPshhTsi]

If jamest's post is true, then it couldn't have been THAT big of a cut or else it means they have been overpaid way too much (which a lot of people believe is the case).

[Karps TA]

I wonder how much financial aid we give to other countries yearly, and how many jobs that creates in the US?

[Al]

I say we let them dry up so that the contracts could be void (this is possible, right?).

Next, lets allow them to restructure their plants like this one in Brazil:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/76806-new-factory-in-brazil-a-model-for-ford-s-future-but-the-uaw-hates-it

Video:
http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189

[mrz28M6]

vroom hit it right on the head! these workers have been overpaid for years!

[subliminal1284]

Taking a pay cut is better than getting laid off. All they wanted to do was bring it down to around what the Toyota and Honda workers get which is about $30 an hour.

[jbiscuit]

paycut or no job....pretty simple. Soon the big 3 will be laying guys off and ultimately closing doors if this continues!

[Al]

Taking a pay cut is better than getting laid off. All they wanted to do was bring it down to around what the Toyota and Honda workers get which is about $30 an hour.

Do those companies rely on IRAs rather than pensions?

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

F em, Gm lost 73 billion in the last 4 years, aint nothing changing there.
Adapt or go the way of the dodo bird.

[Karps TA]

vroom hit it right on the head! these workers have been overpaid for years!

Who decides who is overpaid?

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

Probably some pencil neck paper pusher.
Tho classes have been waring for years.

Probably fuel on the fire, we need a revolution anyway.

[GTSLOW]

Taking a pay cut is better than getting laid off. All they wanted to do was bring it down to around what the Toyota and Honda workers get which is about $30 an hour.

Wait they were making over $30 an hour and their complaining because they'd be getting around $30 now instead of way over??? Does anyone exactly know what kind of drop in pay they were looking at?

[Crawlin]

Who decides who is overpaid?


A quote i have seen that I can agree with...

If there are more than 10 people ready and willing to do your job, and can do it JUST as well, and are more than willing to do it for less, then you are flat out OVERPAID.

[juicedimpss]

Wait they were making over $30 an hour and their complaining because they'd be getting around $30 now instead of way over??? Does anyone exactly know what kind of drop in pay they were looking at?

lets say they are making 35/hr.
40hrs x $5cut= $200/week. would you take a 200 cut per week ?


I know i COULDNT do it.

[Crawlin]

Wait they were making over $30 an hour and their complaining because they'd be getting around $30 now instead of way over??? Does anyone exactly know what kind of drop in pay they were looking at?

I think that's "total" meaning that they may make $26/hr, but with benefits they are really making around $70/hr. Whereas a honda/toyota plant in the US totals about $40/hr w/ benefits. So they want to drop them to be more in line with that. That would be a significant pay decrease...

but ask yourself this... how many unemployed people right now would be ready and willing to take an assembly line job that pays $40/hr with benefits?

I bet a crap ton of the 553,000 that were all of a sudden unemployed in the month of november would be all over that

[4eyedstang]

i bet they go bankrupt now and cone back even stronger with out the UAW.
unions will soon be extinct for resons like this.

[jbiscuit]

how will they comeback? American consumers need to buy the product to keep doors open. Granted if gas prices stabilize more people will start to buy large SUVs and pickups again but still....I would imagine though that getting rid of the union to allow paying workers a wage more in line with toyota and honda employees might be a start though??? Can you imagine if unions went away. RIOTS!

[88Nightmare]

lets say they are making 35/hr.
40hrs x $5cut= $200/week. would you take a 200 cut per week ?


I know i COULDNT do it.

I also see your argument, but in todays day and age, if someone was working and making that much, then had to take that kind of paycut to keep your job, id be all for it. With the economy the way it is, I'd be shocked if they already hadnt made SMALL changes with the way they lived. But a 200 a week cut is better then unemployment still. Im sure they have bills that arent necessities. Do you HAVE to have cable tv? Do you HAVE to have high speed internet? Those are things that would go in my household if needed.

[Yooformula]

why should they be immune to pay cuts when thousands of other people are getting cut more? I got a $24k cut think you can swallow that? when do the corp execs take the cuts instead of the workers? I guarantee its more beneficial! I dont think we should be bailing anyone out though, not wallstreet or banks or the auto industry. when you loan out money to irresponsible people and give them interest only loans KNOWING they eventually will forclose...ITS YOUR FAULT NOW DEAL WITH YOUR CONSEQUENCES! We have all seen the salaries oil execs got I am pretty sure auto execs arent too far off, damm they live the same way. imo NO BAILOUT FOR CORP! I didnt bring my condition on myself but I cant govt help and I got a big phucking pink slip yesterday too.Think my mortgage comp will help out to defer payments until I get better HELL NO. so the taxes I paid should bail them out? phuck that! they are going to take my family car soon and wont defer and wont allow disability but the taxes i paid should bail them out? put one of the execs in front of me, i swear to god he would be in pieces.

[Rocket Power]

Paycut is most likely still going to leave you with more money than unemployment. The way they are going, THOSE are the two chioces. Like it or not

[Yooformula]

and i took my paycut like a MAN, those bitches need to man up!

[jamest]

Remember that this was a bridge loan to cover the billions that they owe to their suppliers. It wouldn't fix the fundamental problems the big 3 have with pensions, benefits, or wages. It is like your wife running up a ton of credit card debt, then take out a home equity loan to pay the debt off, and your wife running out on another shopping spree. We the taxpayers would probably be on the hook for another HUGE bailout next year as the problems had not been fixed.

[Karps TA]

People need to stop making the assumption that if the auto mfgs go under that the only people affected will be UAW workers. There's a whole lotta non-union people who will lose their jobs as well.

My biggest problem is the people who need to be taught the biggest lesson - the CEO's and other corporate mis-managers will all be just fine even if the companies go under. They have plenty of money. It's the small guys who live like any of us that are going to take it, as well as the people who depend on those people's businesses. The stores, bars, restaurants all around the factories and offices will all be hit hard as well.

I'm not saying we should "bail them out" but man we throw money at everyone else, many who don't employee nearly as many people. Seems odd to me that these are the people that need to be made an example of.

[VroomPshhTsi]

lets say they are making 35/hr.
40hrs x $5cut= $200/week. would you take a 200 cut per week ?


I know i COULDNT do it.

Sorry but I don't have much sympathy for someone going from $5600/month to $4800/month. If I made that much I'd still be happy. Like others have said, change a few of your luxuries because $4800/month is still PLENTY to live on.

[Prince Valiant]

First...UAW DID negotiate and agree to a concessions...they just won't take effect until 2011. SO, republican senators came out and said "Listen, move those pay concessions up to 2009, and you've got a deal"

Union said no. They are betting that the next congress/president WILL give them the automakers the loans, thus they can keep the current racket until 2011...and oh, if things improve before then? Well, we'll just renegotiate to keep the same deal we've always had...IE, continueing the same failed business model that got us here in the FIRST place.

Here's the deal...BANKRUPTCY DOES NOT MEAN "CLOSED"/OUT OF BUSINESS. It doesn't even mean current pensions/etc will be gone. It just holds of creditors from taking assets while the company undergoes reorganiztion (that will hopefully allow them to shed bad deals/money losers/etc and thus continue a leaner and an ACTUAL profitable industry). NOT a bad thing imo.

Unions are terrified of bankruptcy not because suddenly they'll be no jobs...it'll mean there current contracts can be declared void. And they'd probably be hard pressed to get such a ridiculous racket.






And should the Big 3 vanish? Cars will continue to be built here...companies such as BMW/Toyota/Nissan/Volkswagen/Honda/Mercedes/etc/etc will continue to expand manufacturing bases here because why? We are still the largest consumer in the world of automobiles...We'll still need as many cars (actually MORE) in the future than we consume now. They'll NEED to build them here as we already are reaching the limits of which our ports can process imports of ALL goods, so it'd be easier and cheaper TO build the vehicles here.

Yeah, I don't want the Big 3 to vanish...if anyone REALLY thinks about it, NO ONE does.

It's just that I don't think the companies can continue this business model they've been following all these years...it's simply impossible, good economy or bad. GM seeking a loan of 16 million?!? In the 3rd quarter last year, they LOST 39 BILLION!!!That was simply ONE quarter. So do you think 16 billion will solve all their woes and return these guys back to the days of profitability? Don't you think if it did, private investors would be lined up ready to pony up the cash? Don't operate under the illusion that this (the bailout...and YES, I'll call it a "bailout") is to SAVE them...it's FAR from that.

[VroomPshhTsi]

People need to stop making the assumption that if the auto mfgs go under that the only people affected will be UAW workers. There's a whole lotta non-union people who will lose their jobs as well.


I think people are getting on the UAW because the news reports have stated that the auto bailout failed because they would not take a pay cut. The bailout was moving along just fine the past couple days, but stories reported that the UAW would not re-negotiate their contracts.

[Yooformula]

Remember that this was a bridge loan to cover the billions that they owe to their suppliers. It wouldn't fix the fundamental problems the big 3 have with pensions, benefits, or wages. It is like your wife running up a ton of credit card debt, then take out a home equity loan to pay the debt off, and your wife running out on another shopping spree. We the taxpayers would probably be on the hook for another HUGE bailout next year as the problems had not been fixed.

the corp guys did the borrowing to continue their spending habits. why is it other manufacturers started to focus on smaller cars yet the big 3 kept pushing trucks even long after their supplies ran out? they knew like the profits from the trucks regardless of the expense. IT THEIR OWN FAULT! If my wife ran up my credit cards guess what......the b!tch gets another job to pay it off. She isnt going to beg for it when it was her fault. honda did it, toyota did it nissan did it....during the gas crunch how many of their truck commercials did you see????0 yet dodge rolls out a new body style? wtf

[Yooformula]

I think people are getting on the UAW because the news reports have stated that the auto bailout failed because they would not take a pay cut. The bailout was moving along just fine the past couple days, but stories reported that the UAW would not re-negotiate their contracts.

nobody WANTS a paycut and I cant blame them but it should be the exec responsiblity to set the tone by corp restructuring to actually work not just a puppet show and do the right thing. you want workers to take a cut, how about you? stop begging for others to fix it and actually try.

[VroomPshhTsi]

BANKRUPTCY DOES NOT MEAN "CLOSED"/OUT OF BUSINESS. It doesn't even mean current pensions/etc will be gone. It just holds of creditors from taking assets while the company undergoes reorganiztion (that will hopefully allow them to shed bad deals/money losers/etc and thus continue a leaner and an ACTUAL profitable industry). NOT a bad thing imo.


Very true. A lot of people have misperceptions of what bankruptcy means.

IMO, bankruptcy will force GM to restructure NOW instead of using up $16+ billion of taxpayers money and doing it later. UAW wages and people in management are 2 of the biggest problems facing the Big 3 that need to be changed NOW.

[4eyedstang]

never mind. the white house just announced they will get there money. they are taking it out of the financial bailout money.

[jamest]

the corp guys did the borrowing to continue their spending habits. why is it other manufacturers started to focus on smaller cars yet the big 3 kept pushing trucks even long after their supplies ran out? they knew like the profits from the trucks regardless of the expense. IT THEIR OWN FAULT! If my wife ran up my credit cards guess what......the b!tch gets another job to pay it off. She isnt going to beg for it when it was her fault. honda did it, toyota did it nissan did it....during the gas crunch how many of their truck commercials did you see????0 yet dodge rolls out a new body style? wtf

Exactly!!! Unless the roots of these problems are ripped out, all the top CEOs get canned, and UAW gets a reality check, nothing will change.

[VroomPshhTsi]

I wish people would still support GM while they go through bankruptcy and buy their cars when they have restructured everything. I would HATE very very much to see GM totally fall apart and not get any support. Bankruptcy doesn't mean all GM cars will slowly go away and be like they never existed. Ford and GM make the V8s we've come to love. Idk what I'd do if they weren't able to do that anymore. Go back to 4 cylinder turbos? :crying
Hellzzzz no

[jamest]

never mind. the white house just announced they will get there money. they are taking it out of the financial bailout money.

I have a feeling that this will not change anything and that we the taxpayers will have the big 3, soup bowl in hand, asking for more money late in 09'.

[VroomPshhTsi]

never mind. the white house just announced they will get there money. they are taking it out of the financial bailout money.

Link? There have been stories all morning reporting that they are discussing it but I haven't seen anything that states it is set in stone.

[4eyedstang]

just heard it on am 1400 news report but i will try to find a link

[Voodoo Chick]

My job was part of the auto industry, and I lost it due to the current situation. I can say with all conviction, as one of the effected workers, I would have gladly taken a pay-cut as opposed to losing my job. Had I been given the option, I would have chosen easily. I would rather be working honestly for less pay, than sitting on my a** getting the same amount of "less pay" from unemployment.

[moels]

Working for a US steel manufacturer, I thought the bosses were nuts for lookng into supplying Toyota awhile back. But someone must have a crystal ball, because it makes perfect sense now. Gotta supply the companies that can pay you.

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

Looks like some f'ing gubmint agency or other is going to bail them out.

If shrub dont do it the treasury says its ready to ?

Treasury ready to prevent collapse of automakers
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081212/treasury_autos.html

Eliminate the UAW and the white collar redundancy and make a viable company out of the damn thing, which will include cutting 50% of production.
GM has what maybe 20% market share today ?

[wrath]

For those of you that suggest it's a good idea for anyone to lose their pension or healthcare, I hope when you're 50 someone takes your money you have saved away. And you lose your healthcare. Then again, those people that say they don't care about someone else's pension probably haven't saved a fscking penny and will probably end up being a parasite on my wallet too.


It's amazing what our society has become. It used to be when a neighbor got a new car everyone went and looked at it and congratulated them. Now everyone pisses and moans about how that worthless piece of shit next door was able to buy a new car but they can't.

[Yooformula]

the responsiblity of YOUR retirement should sit on you IMO. people want to live like there is no tomorrow. alot of us do it but some of us actually do plan with life insurance policies, 401k, personal savings and such.

[wrath]

the responsiblity of YOUR retirement should sit on you IMO. people want to live like there is no tomorrow. alot of us do it but some of us actually do plan with life insurance policies, 401k, personal savings and such.

Life insurance isn't planning for your retirement. Life insurance is to repay your debts if you die and (hopefully) provide for your obligations for a period after your death. If you die, you should have enough life insurance to pay for two years like you currently live plus pay off all of your debt. And this doesn't even include money for your kids' education (if you have any). If you make like $50,000/year this more than likely means you need $350,000 of insurance.


Your thinking (you should plan your own retirement) is fine if you are a responsible person and you have the money to do so. However, not many people are. Look at how many people rely on social security. It was never meant to be a retirement plan. 401k was created so companies could "get rid of expensive pensions" and became popular in the 80s. Why not save a few bucks by getting rid of pensions but not increasing pay so people could use that money to do their own retirement? It was a great scheme. And we're paying for it now because the federal government is picking up the tab.

At age 30 you should have at least one year's gross pay squirreled away in retirement. From there on out you need to be putting away 12%/year. How many people here do that?

[4eyedstang]

and now a word from the man who should have been President.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GzAyO6L96w

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

Ron Paul is making sense.

[badass88gt]

I wonder how much of a pay cut the top executives were supposed to take?

[subliminal1284]

2 of the executives have said they are making their salaries $1 a year. Not including the millions they get in bonuses even when they arent doing well.

[BOSS LX]

A good read!

Incredible editorial from a Ford Dealer in the Pittsburgh Region….
Attached is a well-written "Letter to the Editor" from Elkins Fordland.
Feel free to use as a model and example when if you want write to your own paper..
Editor:
As I watch the coverage of the fate of the U.S. auto industry, one alarming and frustrating fact hits me right between the eyes. The fate of our nation's economic survival is in the hands of some congressmen who are completely out of touch and act without knowledge of an industry that affects almost every person in our nation. The same lack of knowledge is shared with many journalists whom are irresponsible when influencing the opinion of millions of viewers.
Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama has doomed the industry, calling it a dinosaur. No Mr. Shelby, you are the dinosaur, with ideas stuck in the '70s, '80s and '90s. You and the uninformed journalist and senators that hold onto myths that are not relevant in today's world.
When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must have overlooked that GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the U.S. and Ford outsold Honda by 850,000 and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S. GM was the world's No. 1 automaker beating Toyota by 3,000 units.
When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize that Chevy makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated over the Camry and Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial quality? Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers.
Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu that beats the Accord. And for '09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid. Ford's Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy's Cobalt beats the Civic.
When you ask how many times are we going to bail them out you must be referring to 1980. The only Big Three bailout was Chrysler, who paid back $1 billion, plus interest. GM and Ford have never received government aid.
When you criticize the Big Three for building so many pickups, surely you've noticed the attempts Toyota and Nissan have made spending billions to try to get a piece of that pie. Perhaps it bothers you that for 31 straight years Ford's F-Series has been the best selling vehicle. Ford and GM have dominated this market and when you see the new '09 F-150 you'll agree this won't change soon.
Did you realize that both GM and Ford offer more hybrid models than Nissan or Honda. Between 2005 and 2007, Ford alone has invested more than $22 billion in research and development of technologies such as Eco Boost, flex fuel, clean diesel, hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen cars.
It's 2008 and the quality of the vehicles coming out of Detroit are once again the best in the world.
Perhaps Sen. Shelby isn't really that blind. Maybe he realizes the quality shift to American. Maybe it's the fact that his state of Alabama has given so much to land factories from Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes Benz that he is more concerned about their continued growth than he is about the people of our country. Sen. Shelby's disdain for "government subsidies" is very hypocritical. In the early '90s he was the driving force behind a $253 million incentive package to Mercedes. Plus, Alabama agreed to purchase 2,500 vehicles from Mercedes. While the bridge loan the Big Three is requesting will be paid back, Alabama's $180,000-plus per job was pure incentive. Sen. Shelby, not only are you out of touch, you are a self-serving hypocrite, who is prepared to ruin our nation because of lack of knowledge and lack of due diligence in making your opinions and decisions.
After 9/11, the Detroit Three and Harley Davidson gave $40 million-plus emergency vehicles to the recovery efforts. What was given to the 9/11 relief effort by the Asian and European Auto Manufactures? $0 Nada. Zip!
We live in a world of free trade, world economy and we have not been able to produce products as cost efficiently. While the governments of other auto producing nations subsidize their automakers, our government may be ready to force its demise. While our automakers have paid union wages, benefits and legacy debt, our Asian competitors employ cheap labor. We are at an extreme disadvantage in production cost. Although many UAW concessions begin in 2010, many lawmakers think it's not enough.
Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000 since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a company poised for success. Ford product quality and corporate management have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business.
The financial collapse caused by the secondary mortgage fiasco and the greed of Wall Street has led to a $700 billion bailout of the industry that created the problem. AIG spent nearly $1 million on three company excursions to lavish resorts and hunting destinations. Paulson is saying no to $250 billion foreclosure relief and the whole thing is a mess. So when the Big Three ask for 4 percent of that of the $700 billion, $25 billion to save the country's largest industry, there is obviously oppositions. But does it make sense to reward the culprits of the problem with $700 billion unconditionally, and ignore the victims?
As a Ford dealer, I feel our portion of the $25 billion will never be touched and is not necessary. Ford currently has $29 billion of liquidity. However, the effect of a bankruptcy by GM will hurt the suppliers we all do business with. A Chapter 11 bankruptcy by any manufacture would cost retirees their health care and retirements. Chances are GM would recover from Chapter 11 with a better business plan with much less expense. So who foots the bill if GM or all three go Chapter 11? All that extra health care, unemployment, loss of tax base and some forgiven debt goes back to the taxpayer, us. With no chance of repayment, this would be much worse than a loan with the intent of repayment.
So while it is debatable whether a loan or Chapter 11 is better for the Big Three, a $25 billion loan is definitely better for the taxpayers and the economy of our country.
So I'll end where I began on the quality of the products of Detroit. Before you, Mr. or Ms. Journalist continue to misinform the American public and turn them against one of the great industries that helped build this nation, I must ask you one question. Before you, Mr. or Madam Congressman vote to end health care and retirement benefits for 1 million retirees, eliminate 2.5 million of our nation's jobs, lose the technology that will lead us in the future and create an economic disaster including hundreds of billions of tax dollars lost, I ask this question not in the rhetorical sense. I ask it in the sincere, literal way. Can you tell me, have you driven a Ford lately?
Jim Jackson
Elkins



William Letmon
Ford Motor Company
Select Dealer Zone Manager 41W
ph: (800)380-3880
fax: (866) 641-0103
Chicago Region Webpage
www.forddriveone.com
__________________

[Troutman]

Sorry but I don't have much sympathy for someone going from $5600/month to $4800/month. If I made that much I'd still be happy. Like others have said, change a few of your luxuries because $4800/month is still PLENTY to live on.


agreed. im sorry but getting paid over $30/hour, (60K/year)to do a job in which a powered tool with a preset torque places a few fasteners in is ridiculous. and all that is required is a high school dipolma?

after i graduated college i was getting paid 30K/year to start...which equates to about 13-15/hour. i had and still have $377.11/month in school loan payments. i wasnt making enough to support myself, so i got a second job. i was working roughly 60-65 hrs/week to gross about 38K/ year.
and im suppose to feel sorry for these people????

you know, its those that do so little in life that feel they are owed the most. let them go under... i'll build my own damn car!

[Reverend Cooper]

They will be left with no choice but to declare bankrupty or be bought out by another conglomeration or car manufacturer. these are the only two options at this time mark my words.

[Moparjim]

I am going to keep this brief since I am sick of typing it on this topic. The UAW Big Three workers continually get bashed for being "overpaid" compared to the transplant non union conterparts at Toyota and Honda, etc. i worked for Chrysler for 12 years, had access to all the info on both sides in trade publications etc. I also was offered a job at Toyota in San Antonio. The simple fact is the non union transplants and the UAW big three pay almost exactly the same - it varies company to company etc. but its within a few bucks an hour - in the mid-high 20's per hour. The benefits are also largely the same as far as medical, etc. This mysterious "pay gap" that the big three management and media complain about exists and that they often state as the UAW people making like $70something an hour total compensation versus the transplants paying only $40something an hour is only because of funky math. They like to lump in all the RETIREES of which GM now has over a million, and Ford and Chrysler have a ton also. Remember they have been in business forever and for a long time had 50% of the car market. All those people are getting 30plus years of service pensions and healthcare. The transplants only have a handful, only having had plants manufacturing in this country in recent history - , and thus have almost no cost so far. What the media and management like to do is just take all the costs - current employee wages, current employee healthcare and benefits PLUS retiree pensions and healthcare then get a total of what they "spent on labor" and divide it by the number of current employees hours worked. Its easy to see how they arrive at some ridiculous $70something an hour - each employee has several retirees "on his back" so to speak. This is why I wonder how the hell GM can survive no matter what happens - they are now down to a few hundred thousand employees and like high teens market share but still "owe" those million plus people retirement....

So, the wage cut they asked for was most likely not an hourly wage cut probably but I bet they are trying to get out of retirement healthcare obligations or pensions, etc.

Its a tough choice - if you worked a place 30 plus years I guarentee you would want that pension and healthcare that was promised to you and part of your compensation all those years, rather than being stiffed and left in the cold at this point, in your aged years with no way to make a living....

For the people that say ti should be your responsibility for your retirement, that certainly is the "plan" for most people now. Remember however, these people largely worked when that was NOT the case - before 401Ks, matching, etc. back when almost every company including the big three paid you a pension and people worked at these places their entire life and expected to retire from there. Those days are pretty much gone now, but what do we do with those millions out there that retired under the "old system" so to speak???

[Moparjim]

PS - the only real huge pay gap that exists is in management. Compare what a big three exec makes compared to a transplant exec and it will make you sick.

Bob Nardelli, head of Chrysler, for example received a $250 million severance to get "removed" from Home Depot before coming to Chrysler. He has regularly made millions per year, like $12 million last year in bonuses and incentives despite his "$1 salary". Thats one guy. Realize most people will maybe make a few million in a LIFETIME of working 30 plus years, let alone $250 million to get fired or $12 million in one year when your performance has your company going bankrupt. That $12 million would pay the salaries and benefits of an entire V6 engine line of around 120 workers at Kenosha for the year. I don't want to sound Commie but who the hell deserves that much money???? Keep in mind its not like these guys are Bill Gates and built an empire from scratch - these are guys hired off the street to run PUBLICLY traded and owned companies. On top of it, their performance has obviously been poor. When losing a war, the general is the guy in charge and should shoulder most of the blame. They prefer to point that blame anywhere else but on them - including quite frequently their supposed labor cost gap.

Theres a shitload of VPs on up and all three making millions per year, and getting 6 figure or 7 figure bonuses each year becuase "they are meeting all their turnaround goals and targets" despite the places still going under. I guess the targets aren't set all that high, huh.

Meanwhile, the top 17 directors and the CEO of Toyota only made an average of $290,000 a year a few years ago, the last time I saw numbers published. I believe their CEO barely cracks in the 7th figure...

[wrath]

agreed. im sorry but getting paid over $30/hour, (60K/year)to do a job in which a powered tool with a preset torque places a few fasteners in is ridiculous. and all that is required is a high school dipolma?

after i graduated college i was getting paid 30K/year to start...which equates to about 13-15/hour. i had and still have $377.11/month in school loan payments. i wasnt making enough to support myself, so i got a second job. i was working roughly 60-65 hrs/week to gross about 38K/ year.
and im suppose to feel sorry for these people????

you know, its those that do so little in life that feel they are owed the most. let them go under... i'll build my own damn car!

I've posted this countless times, but GM general laborers do not make over $30/hour (it's a short read and will educate you):
http://www.uaw.org/contracts/07/gm/gm06.php

Your profession has failed you. You shouldn't be pissed at your fellow american for earning a decent living. You should be pissed at whoever dictates your wage be so low or YOURSELF for picking a profession that doesn't pay well.

[PB86MCSS]

Isn't one of the main reasons the Big 3 are in such trouble are all the pensions/benefit plans? I mean, I understand they promised them but if it means the company will need more gov't money in the future, thats also plain wrong, IMO.

I'm still on the bankruptcy side of the fence although there is no easy answer.

People also expect social security to be there forever, you could argue the gov't is promising that but it won't last forever either.

[wrath]

Isn't one of the main reasons the Big 3 are in such trouble are all the pensions/benefit plans? I mean, I understand they promised them but if it means the company will need more gov't money in the future, thats also plain wrong, IMO.

I'm still on the bankruptcy side of the fence although there is no easy answer.

People also expect social security to be there forever, you could argue the gov't is promising that but it won't last forever either.


Taking away those pensions and benefits is like stealing your 401k. Would you be alright if you were nearing retirement or older and someone took away your 401k? It is stealing. These are things promised to these workers and they've been planning on it their entire lives.

The average GM employee is 49 and has 23 years of service. In reality, a bunch of new hires brought that number down. The real average is 53 years and 29 years of service.

My Dad just turned 49 and has 29.5 years in at GM. At his plant he is LOW seniority. When he retires he'll get $3150 (before taxes), assuming it doesn't get taken over by the Federal government's pension insurance program. He currently makes $28.20*2,080/12=~$4,800/month (before taxes and a billion other deductions). Once he reaches 62.5 he takes a large hit, but I don't remember how much.

If anything, the big three should be sold and pay their obligations. For whatever reason pensions and medical benefits can be cut from the books for obligations in this country but creditors are paid first. There is something wrong with that.

[PB86MCSS]

My 401k already dissapeared, almost ;) .

I'm against the idea of the government bailing out companies. I personally think the best thing for GM and the Big 3 is to re-structure under bankruptcy for its long term success. The bailout just seems will prolong the problem until they need another bailout. Its a no win situation whatever happens.

I'll stay out of this as it seems to get pretty personal for some folks.

[Rocket Power]

When he retires he'll get $3150 (before taxes), assuming it doesn't get taken over by the Federal government's pension insurance program.
If you're wanting me to feel sorry for somebody making more than me when they're retired, sorry ain't gonna happen

[wrath]

If you're wanting me to feel sorry for somebody making more than me when they're retired, sorry ain't gonna happen

That's a side-effect of the "haves" wanting the "have-nots" to have even less, and your own decision. Even hard work doesn't pay more than $12/hr anymore because the "haves" decided that hard work isn't worth anything. In order to make a living wage (as opposed to a working poor wage) you must get an education in a relevant field (read: not soft sciences like underwater basketweaving).

Even with a post-secondary education you end up with a ridiculous amount of student loans unless you are poor. I *still* have more in student loans than I make in a year and I've been out of college for 3.5 years. I could buy a new truck and pay it off in 5 years for what I'm going to be paying for my student loans for the next 10. I'm *glad* I'm not paying today's tuition because in the time I was going to college cost of attendance doubled. You can once again blame this on the "haves".

So, you're pissed that someone makes more money than you instead of being glad someone isn't in the same situation as you. I understand this. However, it's a bit selfish.

[Yooformula]

is it true that even after getting this bailout money that the big 3 can still file bankruptcy? if so, why give them the money?

[Reverend Cooper]

^ they then have a shit ton of capitol or liquid assest to start off with,they get outta pensions and medical benefits and can also break or rework union contracts.

[Reverend Cooper]

I am going to keep this brief since I am sick of typing it on this topic. The UAW Big Three workers continually get bashed for being "overpaid" compared to the transplant non union conterparts at Toyota and Honda, etc. i worked for Chrysler for 12 years, had access to all the info on both sides in trade publications etc. I also was offered a job at Toyota in San Antonio. The simple fact is the non union transplants and the UAW big three pay almost exactly the same - it varies company to company etc. but its within a few bucks an hour - in the mid-high 20's per hour. The benefits are also largely the same as far as medical, etc. This mysterious "pay gap" that the big three management and media complain about exists and that they often state as the UAW people making like $70something an hour total compensation versus the transplants paying only $40something an hour is only because of funky math. They like to lump in all the RETIREES of which GM now has over a million, and Ford and Chrysler have a ton also. Remember they have been in business forever and for a long time had 50% of the car market. All those people are getting 30plus years of service pensions and healthcare. The transplants only have a handful, only having had plants manufacturing in this country in recent history - , and thus have almost no cost so far. What the media and management like to do is just take all the costs - current employee wages, current employee healthcare and benefits PLUS retiree pensions and healthcare then get a total of what they "spent on labor" and divide it by the number of current employees hours worked. Its easy to see how they arrive at some ridiculous $70something an hour - each employee has several retirees "on his back" so to speak. This is why I wonder how the hell GM can survive no matter what happens - they are now down to a few hundred thousand employees and like high teens market share but still "owe" those million plus people retirement....

So, the wage cut they asked for was most likely not an hourly wage cut probably but I bet they are trying to get out of retirement healthcare obligations or pensions, etc.

Its a tough choice - if you worked a place 30 plus years I guarentee you would want that pension and healthcare that was promised to you and part of your compensation all those years, rather than being stiffed and left in the cold at this point, in your aged years with no way to make a living....

For the people that say ti should be your responsibility for your retirement, that certainly is the "plan" for most people now. Remember however, these people largely worked when that was NOT the case - before 401Ks, matching, etc. back when almost every company including the big three paid you a pension and people worked at these places their entire life and expected to retire from there. Those days are pretty much gone now, but what do we do with those millions out there that retired under the "old system" so to speak???

but then your saying basically foreign manufactureers will have the same issues later with retiree's? because they will have so many of them. also, this is poss. but unlikely, reason being planning ahead. instead of all the bullshit pay the stateside companies give to their employee's and bonus's they need to invest in for the future so this doesnt happen. But i really disagree with the fact they are failing just do to that,all companies that have the same type of retirement plans would go defunct to if thats the case (telephone,electric oil comp. etc.) Some of which that have been in business longer with more retiress.

[Rocket Power]

That's a side-effect of the "haves" wanting the "have-nots" to have even less, and your own decision. Even hard work doesn't pay more than $12/hr anymore because the "haves" decided that hard work isn't worth anything. In order to make a living wage (as opposed to a working poor wage) you must get an education in a relevant field (read: not soft sciences like underwater basketweaving).

Even with a post-secondary education you end up with a ridiculous amount of student loans unless you are poor. I *still* have more in student loans than I make in a year and I've been out of college for 3.5 years. I could buy a new truck and pay it off in 5 years for what I'm going to be paying for my student loans for the next 10. I'm *glad* I'm not paying today's tuition because in the time I was going to college cost of attendance doubled. You can once again blame this on the "haves".

So, you're pissed that someone makes more money than you instead of being glad someone isn't in the same situation as you. I understand this. However, it's a bit selfish.

No I am not mad that someone makes more money than me, your whining that they somehow have to scape by on it.
Just because someone WAS willing to pay a person a certain amount doesn't make it worth that amount to everyone. If you were a business owner and were paying someone $30/hr to do an easily trained task like bolting something on, but now you face the prospect of going out of business because you can't afford to pay someone that to do that job , and there are plenty of people that would be willing to do it for $17-18/hr. Is the job really worth $30/hr? Only to the guy getting that money now.

I am not hating on anyone, I am all for people making what they can make, but don't come whining when times change and a job that paid good doesn't anymore or goes away because they can't pay the people as much and still stay in business.
What about the poor buggy whip makers that went out of business when the cars came along?
Businesses aren't a charity they exist to make money, if they don't make money, they won't exist for long.

But hey whatever clearly you see everything through your Union filter/brainwashing so think what you want.

[wrath]

No I am not mad that someone makes more money than me, your whining that they somehow have to scape by on it.
Just because someone WAS willing to pay a person a certain amount doesn't make it worth that amount to everyone. If you were a business owner and were paying someone $30/hr to do an easily trained task like bolting something on, but now you face the prospect of going out of business because you can't afford to pay someone that to do that job , and there are plenty of people that would be willing to do it for $17-18/hr. Is the job really worth $30/hr? Only to the guy getting that money now.

The problem with that thinking is that it forces a downward spiral.

You've seen what has happened to teachers.

Human Resources people don't do anything that anyone else fresh out of High School can't do... and they're paid pretty well for what amounts to listening and shuffling paper.

Who is next? Everyone.


I am not hating on anyone, I am all for people making what they can make, but don't come whining when times change and a job that paid good doesn't anymore or goes away because they can't pay the people as much and still stay in business.
What about the poor buggy whip makers that went out of business when the cars came along?
Businesses aren't a charity they exist to make money, if they don't make money, they won't exist for long.

That's why new "toolworker" jobs at GM are $14/hr jobs. Times have changed. I don't see too many decisionmakers choosing to cut their own pay. Those people that make in excess of $100k and work 40hrs/week (an honest 40 hours, not just be at the office for 40 hours) or less, can you honestly say that you're worth that much?


But hey whatever clearly you see everything through your Union filter/brainwashing so think what you want.

I don't even like unions. I like the idea of unions but I've never seen a union I like. Including the UAW.

Remember, there is a downward pressure on wages. Your employer is going to pay you the minimum they can to keep your position filled and the work done. There are only a few ways to beat this. Be better than everyone else at your job and only ask for an amount that won't make them look for a replacement, make it so it's impossible for them to replace you, have nothing to lose by playing hardball (difficult if you have a family), or be a jobhopper.

[wrath]

A rant from Detroit, but it does put things in perspective:
http://freep.com/article/20081213/COL01/81213055

[Sprayaway Fox]

Looks like a good time to drag that ol 010 SBC block up from the basement. At least those parts will be readily available in 10 years.:eek::alcoholic

So basically if they go under they go bankrupt kick everybody out. Screw everybody for pensions, and get rid of all the workers. Then reset the wage and dont have to pay pensions on those employees who are retired. Sounds like a good ol ass raping to me.

[PB86MCSS]

Your employer is going to pay you the minimum they can to keep your position filled and the work done.

My impolite reaction to that is: Duh. I wouldn't expect anything else and I'd do the same thing. Unless you aren't in business to make money. Many times its neccessary to do that to stay in business. And I've personally been let go due to downsizing so I understand how it works.

I said I wouldn't chime in but can't help myself. Basically the bailout is asking us, the people, to pay for a company(s) failure. It stinks that anyone would have to lose any benefits but is it right for all of us to help make sure they still get paid among other people? I understand this is a special circumstance considering the size and scope of the companies involved and how deep it goes within our country and economy, so its not simple. But having us pay for the companies inability to stay afloat I don't agree with in principle. Other companies that have failed aren't as fortunate, if it goes through. My other issue is that the bailout money doesn't mean they are out of the woods and everything will be peachy going forward. The Big 3 made the (foolish?) agreements on pensions as well as many other things over the years to get to this point so its their fault yes, but I'm not sure it should neccissarily be our responsibility to bail them out. :usa

[GTSLOW]

I'm so glad I'll be retiring at 39 or so. With full benefits and pay, no worries for me.