The Auto Industry Bailout - GM's Offer...

[Slow Joe]

GM offers cuts in brands, salaries, debt, payroll
Harry Stoffer
Automotive News
December 2, 2008 - 3:17 pm ET

WASHINGTON -- The General Motors of 2012 will have fewer brands and nameplates, thousands fewer dealers and employees, and much less debt on its balance sheet, under a restructuring plan GM gave Congress today.

GM will focus on its "core brands" of Chevrolet, Buick, GMC and Cadillac, the plan says. GM will sell Saab, shrink Pontiac to a niche brand and consider selling or closing Saturn, GM President Fritz Henderson told reporters at a briefing today.

GM also plans to trim its U.S. dealerships from today's 6,450 to about 4,700, Henderson said. It will cut about one-third of the nameplates from its vehicle lineup.

GM executives say the plan will enable the company to be profitable even if the U.S. new-vehicle market makes only a modest recovery.

GM, like Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC, submitted its plan in an effort to persuade Congress and the Bush administration to approve $25 billion in emergency loans to the Detroit 3 this month.

In the starkest acknowledgment GM has made of its financial condition, the company says it needs $4 billion in federal aid by the end of the month.

Henderson, in a briefing with reporters today, refused to say what would happen if GM does not get the immediate aid it seeks. But without government support, he warned, "the company cannot fund its operations."

Request: $18 billion

GM's plan asks Congress for $12 billion in loans by the end of March. It seeks another $6 billion in revolving credit if market conditions don't turn around.

The total request is higher than the $10 billion to $12 billion that GM CEO Rick Wagoner requested of lawmakers during congressional hearings two weeks ago.

Henderson called the GM plan "a blueprint for creating a new General Motors -- one that is leaner, profitable, self-sustaining and fully competitive." Among its key features:

• Reducing the number of GM brands and nameplates, a step GM critics have demanded for years.

Henderson said GM will seek a buyer for Saab. Pontiac will be shrunk to a "specialty, niche" brand, Henderson said. GM already has put Hummer up for sale.

Under its franchise agreement with Saturn dealers, GM will seek a new course for that brand, Henderson said. Asked whether GM would sell or fold Saturn, he said he would not eliminate any options.

The brand "is just not successful," Henderson said.

The number of GM nameplates would drop from 63 today to about 40 by 2012, Henderson added.

• Trimming GM's 6,450 U.S. dealerships to about 4,700.

Most reductions would occur in metropolitan areas, Henderson said.

• Reopening talks with the UAW to cut manufacturing costs further.

Henderson declined to identify the additional concessions GM will seek. But he said GM expects to be fully competitive in labor costs with Toyota Motor Corp. by 2012.

Henderson estimated GM's total U.S. head count would drop from today's 96,000 employees to between 65,000 and 75,000.

• Negotiating with lenders and bondholders to remove about $35.6 billion in debt from GM's books. At the end of September, the company owed $66 billion. Henderson said that debt load is too heavy.

GM aims to achieve through negotiation the kind of debt reduction that otherwise might occur in bankruptcy, Henderson said. The plan probably will involve some exchange of debt for stock.

Breakeven: 13 million sales

Under its plan, GM would break even if U.S. light-vehicle sales recover to just 12.5 million to 13 million cars and trucks a year, Henderson said. Over the past few months, the annualized U.S. sales rate has been less than 11 million units. From 1999 to 2007, the industry sold more than 16 million new cars and trucks each year.

In its plan, GM also agreed to have a government oversight board monitor use of the federal money. Taxpayers would get a stake in the company in exchange for the loans.

After last month's congressional hearings, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., chastised the Detroit 3 CEOs for failing to make an adequate case for federal aid.

The leaders demanded that the Detroit 3 tell Congress in detail how they would use federal loans and how they would make themselves viable for the long term.

Reacting to lawmakers' complaints that the companies' CEOs came to Washington last month in separate corporate jets, Wagoner is scheduled to return to the capital this week in a Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid.

Wagoner has agreed to accept a salary of $1 next year. The GM plan includes cuts in pay for other senior executives, and the company says it is ceasing use of its jets.

Committee hearings on the Detroit 3 loan requests are set for Thursday in the Senate and Friday in the House. As they did last month, the Detroit 3 CEOs and UAW President Ron Gettelfinger are expected to testify.

Reid and Pelosi have promised to call Congress back into session next week to consider the companies' aid pleas if the viability plans are acceptable.


Hrmm Pontiac being a Specialty brand, yet they're keeping Buick? Interesting...

[07ROUSHSTG3]

and ford says they don't need no stinkin bailout.

[Karps TA]

Funny Saturn IMO finally makes some decent cars. Matter of fact I like the Saturn verison of their cars better then any of the other nameplates version.

[moels]

and ford says they don't need no stinkin bailout.

They still asked for 9 billion though, just in case.

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

Keeping GMC ? A badge engineered truck and SUV line ? WTF.
AXing Saturn is too bad, the old econo style was ridiculous so GM reworks the whole deal and Saturn starts peddling decent wares only to be axed. But if they are not selling they are not selling and they need to go. The big 2j probably needs to cut capacity by 50% to be competitive.

Pontiac a niche brand, lOl :thumbsup

[Goat Roper]

According to an employee of Ford my wife still speaks with they quit performing tours of the plant up in the twin cities because it is mostly all automated now and the employees sit around and watch the machines work but Ford cannot get rid of them because of the labor agreement. So many people complained that Ford just quit doing tours altogether.

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

The "tour" they offer of the legendary Rouge plant is a laugh at best, half the tour is a damn movie then you get to see 1/16 of F150 assembly from a catwalk.

Fords Rouge use to have like popemobile/glass house type buses and they would drive all thru the plant and show you everything. Course Ford sold the Rouge steel mill off to the russians years ago so they could not show you the steel mill if they wanted. Tho the "informational movie" has steel mill and auto plant like smells and sounds. :rolleyes:

[BAD LS1]

Id bet ford and chrysler follow suit to a similar plan within week's... GM leads by example?

I wonder if the performance car element might get stronger from this or die again to make way for econoboxes?

[07ROUSHSTG3]

Id bet ford an chrysler follow suit to a similar plan within week's... GM leads by example?

I wonder if the performance car element might get stronger from this or die again to make way for econoboxes?

ford wouldn't have said what they said today just to retract it. as for chrysler, i find it hilarious that "being a private compay they don't have to release their financial information". WTF?? give us money, but we don't want to show why we need it.

chrysler is giving people the ax like crazy. the service rep for our area got it friday, and today another regional guy that has been with chrysler forever got it. ain;t looking good for chrysler :(

[Voodoo Chick]

I'm guessing it'll be the econoboxes that are the prevalent type.

[Slow Joe]

Id bet ford and chrysler follow suit to a similar plan within week's... GM leads by example?

I wonder if the performance car element might get stronger from this or die again to make way for econoboxes?

Actually I got this one before I got the one about GM...


In Bid For Cash, Ford Ponders Selling Volvo

by Karl Greenberg, Monday, Dec 1, 2008 4:10 PM ET


Ford Motor may jettison Volvo Cars of North America, the Sweden-based automaker's U.S. operations, which Ford acquired in 1999 for around $6.45 billion.

In a release, Ford cited declines in the global auto industry. Alan Mulally, Ford's president and CEO, said the company's reassessment of Volvo is in concert with Ford's efforts to grow its global business through production efficiencies.

Still, the real need is cash. The announcement of Ford's possible sale of Volvo's U.S. arm comes as the Detroit automaker's executives return to Congress to explain how they would put a $25 billion government loan to work. Last month, during the first such meeting and after Ford posted a $2.98 billion quarterly loss, Mulally told Congress that the company has enough cash to survive 2009 if the economy doesn't get any worse.

It may get worse, as analysts predict that the (now official) recession--which began last year, per the National Bureau of Economic Research--may not turn until 2010.

Adolfo Laurenti--an analyst with Chicago-based Mesirow Financial, which expects the recession to hang on through next year and possibly into 2010--says the growing affluence in the U.S. through the '90's and in recent years has been a major driver for luxury sales.

The affluence boom, which saw more people getting rich, and the rich getting richer, was a boon to brands like Volvo, Lexus and BMW. It is also one reason why, despite economic burps in recent years, the luxury market has remained stable. "But I think that process is over now," he says. Laurenti argues that the recession's origins in housing and reverberations through credit markets mean that brands like Volvo feel as much pain as brands like Kia.

"Across the board--even for affluent customers--easy credit was a key component [of sales] because it made the difference between changing a car once every three or four years and changing it every two years," he says. "And this isn't a traditional recession in which the blue-collar worker suffers while the white-collar workforce is insulated. This is a recession that hit white collar first in real estate, financial and insurance sectors, who tend to have higher salaries."

Ford said the review would probably take several months to complete. Stephen Odell, who took the CEO post at Volvo this year, said--also in a release--that Volvo is undergoing its own restructuring.

Odell said Volvo also will bow seven low-emission models in 2009. "We have a strong brand presence in Europe, North America and the Asia-Pacific region, and are growing in key markets such as China and Russia, where we are the leading premium brand." Volvo posted sales of 3,717 in October, a 52% drop versus the period last year. Year to date, Volvo has sold 71,104 vehicles in the U.S., a 28.3% decline versus the same period last year.

Art Spinella, president of CNW Market Research in Bandon, Ore., says that, despite Volvo's declines, Ford's consideration of a spin-off has the feel of a fire sale--since the company will get nowhere near what it paid, and because of Volvo's brand equity. "The interest in Volvo has always been very strong, and it hits right in the demographic group that is reasonably well off."

Spinella says that even though Volvo buyers rely on home-equity loans to buy vehicles, the brand will recover when the economy does.

"Consideration of Volvo is extremely high; it appeals to a perfect market group, too, in the sense that it tends to be a somewhat younger than competitive set, and very mobile and much into work and family. From that perspective, it is one of the most healthy brands out there."

[Slow Joe]

Personally, I hope Ford keeps Volvo and GM keeps Saab... Both are great cars that appeal to a different clientel than their normal Ford and Chevrolet brandnames...

Hopefully they don't get sold off to India's auto makers like Jaguar and Land Rover did...

[Poncho]

Id bet ford and chrysler follow suit to a similar plan within week's... GM leads by example?

I wonder if the performance car element might get stronger from this or die again to make way for econoboxes?

i wouldn't think it would die out considering how good the fuel economy of them can be, i mean seriously pulling the ls1 from a camaro for an ecotec can't save THAT MUCH weigh.

lighter cars = better fuel economy.

[xxsn0blindxx]

Hrmm Pontiac being a Specialty brand, yet they're keeping Buick? Interesting...

Buick is incredibly successful in China, killing the Buick brand would be incredibly stupid. Pontiac on the other hand would do well to be more limited as their "excitement" division, rather than their "excitement and other random crap" division.


They still asked for 9 billion though, just in case.

They requested the line of credit in order to secure credit from other lenders. Mullaly has offered to reduce his salary to $1 if Ford has to dip into this reserve credit.


Funny Saturn IMO finally makes some decent cars. Matter of fact I like the Saturn verison of their cars better then any of the other nameplates version.

I totally agree, but the whole Euro influence isn't catching on. I think GM would do well to focus Saturn on technology, make them the hybrid and EV brand to break new ground before new technology goes mainstream in the other brands.


Keeping GMC ? A badge engineered truck and SUV line ? WTF.


GMC is a profitable brand and the only additional costs are their marketing and minor tooling for the different trim pieces versus the Chevys and because they are usually more up-market, there is a higher margin. Why kill off a money-making brand?

[Karps TA]

By making Pontiac a niche brand they should just delay the Camaro - translate kill it, and bring the Trans Am back instead. Then have it destroy the fraud on the new Knight Rider. Yeah that's what I would do.

[Slow Joe]

Buick is incredibly successful in China, killing the Buick brand would be incredibly stupid. Pontiac on the other hand would do well to be more limited as their "excitement" division, rather than their "excitement and other random crap" division.


That's fine, but what does it do in the American market? For the US they had mightas well close up the doors.

That's just like saying Holden or Opal is successful in Australia... That could very well be the case, but we don't have the brand here in the US...

Just to make my point more... Clear...


Chinese Buick LaCrosse
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/5389/buick11cd.jpg

American Buick LaCrosse
http://www.automedia.com/NewCarBuyersGuide/photos/2005/Buick/LaCrosse/Sedan/2005_Buick_LaCrosse_ext_1.jpg

They aren't even similar... The Chinese LaCrosse mightas well wear a Mercury Badge... Since it looks like the Sable/Montego...

[brotherbenn83]

You should all own a Holden, they are NICE cars....

[BAD LS1]

As for saab and volvo... well if they arent making money, then they are gonna cut the loss. How many NEW saabs or volvo's u see on the road anyway?? I see a ton more of the old actual swedish models of each if anything!

Buick... Yes that point about china is veryg ood, when i was in Shanghai last year, thats practically all there was on the roads. Buicks and VW's. Old Venture/transport/shiloutte vans rebadged as Buick's and Regal's up the ass!!! With billboards everywhere for the lacrose.

GMC has always been the better looking half of the truck market for GM and offers the luxury version of the working man's truck with Denali's.

I bet Pontiac keeps the the GXP line and will soley revolve around the Solstice and G8.

One would think with models being slashed that would allow more focus on improving exsisting models and still keeping active intrest in performance cars. But it could easily go the other way with the bean counters...

[Holeshot]

I bet Pontiac keeps the the GXP line and will soley revolve around the Solstice and G8.

One would think with models being slashed that would allow more focus on improving exsisting models and still keeping active intrest in performance cars. But it could easily go the other way with the bean counters...

Rumor has it they still plan on importing the G8 ST but according to Holden 2012 be it for the G8 and the G8ST So what will come from PMD.

[Crawlin]

For the reps for Chrysler, of all the "sales" side reps, for regional reps.... out of the 16 reps, i think 12 of them took what they were offered, voluntary retirement settlements or whatever you want to call it. In addition to all of that, everyone who took those settlements, got a $25,000 check to put towards any new car purchase. We've been getting a couple of them actually. My rep Brian Shanahan is still around.

It's going to be an interesting couple of months, that's for sure.

[Slow Joe]

As for saab and volvo... well if they arent making money, then they are gonna cut the loss. How many NEW saabs or volvo's u see on the road anyway?? I see a ton more of the old actual swedish models of each if anything!


There are actually tons of few new/er Saabs and Volvos on the road... You'd be amazed... And "actual old swedish models" would have to be 1990 since that's when GM purchased the Majority of Saab and formed Saab Automobile AB.

[Holeshot]

There are actually tons of few new/er Saabs and Volvos on the road... You'd be amazed... And "actual old swedish models" would have to be 1990 since that's when GM purchased the Majority of Saab and formed Saab Automobile AB.

Tuff to find parts for tho right Joe ;)

[lordairgtar]

Hrmm Pontiac being a Specialty brand, yet they're keeping Buick? Interesting...
Because the old farts are buying Buicks. Since Cadillac went to its folded paper look, them old lane straddlers don't like 'em. That, and the China thing.

[Karps TA]

Because the old farts are buying Buicks. Since Cadillac went to its folded paper look, them old lane straddlers don't like 'em. That, and the China thing.

More then that, you can't get into a Caddy for basically under $40K. Every CTS I see on a lot is near $50K. ridiculous.

[T-Bag]

So GM basically said they are going to do...nothing.

They're keeping all brands, cutting shitty models which will have little impact on anything...yay. ******* get rid of all the off brands...GMC, Buick, Pontiac...they all sell for **** except maybe Pontiac with the G5 and G6.

Here would be my plan

-Cut GMC, use the design elements from GMC on Chevy's current trucks
-Cut all Pontiac models besides the G5, G6 and Solstice for that sporty car. Sorry the G8 is absolute hotness but it doesn't sell
-Cut Buick
-Keep Cadillac's current lineup but introduce something that like what the Deville was for the older generations. The DTS is the closest thing and that's a little too edgy
-Chevy: Cut the Aveo, Impala, Equinox and HHR.

This also pretty much signals the death of the Camaro after one or maybe two model years if that.

[Crawlin]

Aveo yes... Equinox yes especially with the Traverse, but that's a different price point. HHR most definitely.

Impala they won't cut since it's a huge rental car/police force vehicle. So they could make it a fleet only, but then that's an assembly plant that is pointless.

[Slow Joe]

So GM basically said they are going to do...nothing.

They're keeping all brands, cutting shitty models which will have little impact on anything...yay. ******* get rid of all the off brands...GMC, Buick, Pontiac...they all sell for **** except maybe Pontiac with the G5 and G6.

Here would be my plan

-Cut GMC, use the design elements from GMC on Chevy's current trucks
-Cut all Pontiac models besides the G5, G6 and Solstice for that sporty car. Sorry the G8 is absolute hotness but it doesn't sell
-Cut Buick
-Keep Cadillac's current lineup but introduce something that like what the Deville was for the older generations. The DTS is the closest thing and that's a little too edgy
-Chevy: Cut the Aveo, Impala, Equinox and HHR.

This also pretty much signals the death of the Camaro after one or maybe two model years if that.

You make no sence... Why would they cut their best sellers? (Aveo, Impala, HHR) And WHY would they keep the non-selling G5 when they have the Cobalt which is the exact same car and sells 100% better.

-Keep Chevy's current line-up.
-Rid Pontiac of the G5, SUVs and Mini-Vans. Keep the G6, G8, and Solstice
-Give Buick the Axe in the US, or possibly keep just the LaCrosse and Lucerne.
-GMC - Take the Specialty models (aka Denali) and give them a Chevrolet Badge, Mix styling queues from both trucks. Cut line otherwise.
-Cadillac - Keep as "Highline" for the older Generation
-Saturn - Cut. Rebadge selling models as Pontiacs or Chevrolets.
-Saab - Keep and market as "highline" to the younger Generation. Share some elements with the rest of the lines. (Such as Cross-Wheel Drive).

[Poncho]

You make no sence... Why would they cut their best sellers? (Aveo, Impala, HHR) And WHY would they keep the non-selling G5 when they have the Cobalt which is the exact same car and sells 100% better.

-Keep Chevy's current line-up.
-Rid Pontiac of the G5, SUVs and Mini-Vans. Keep the G6, G8, and Solstice
-Give Buick the Axe in the US, or possibly keep just the LaCrosse and Lucerne.
-GMC - Take the Specialty models (aka Denali) and give them a Chevrolet Badge, Mix styling queues from both trucks. Cut line otherwise.
-Cadillac - Keep as "Highline" for the older Generation
-Saturn - Cut. Rebadge selling models as Pontiacs or Chevrolets.
-Saab - Keep and market as "highline" to the younger Generation. Share some elements with the rest of the lines. (Such as Cross-Wheel Drive).

I agree with everything, though I wonder whats even left w/ Saab? 9-3 (love it) 9-5, and the new Turbo-X ? Priced too high, either leave it, sell it and let it be swedish, don't absorb either. Also it would take little money to make a Poncho variant of the Camaro into a Firebird, and if the Holden 2-door VE ever happens, a cheap GTO. The G8 is fine as is, little money at all was put into making it exist. Hmm take the middle east LHD variant and slap pontiac bumpers on it, worked fine last time, do it again.

[Karps TA]

Personally until the the general public gets over the outdated notion that American cars are crap, it doesn't matter what the Big 3 do. The stigma keeps getting worse, despite facts saying otherwise. I continue to hear people say they'll never buy an American car again cause they bought some low end Cutlass Calais back in 84 and it was a POS.

As most of us are car guys, our opinion is completely out of whack and really only makes up a small percentage of the consumers. It's funny that in the 80's and early 90's us car guys complained how GM was being run by the bean counters and not by car people. But they were making money. Then Bob Lutz came in and other "car guys" and really turned something around and put out some great performing cars, but now they don't make money, so people want to know what happened.

On the flip side you have a company like Toyota make some of the most boring designed and performing cars and they sell like crazy.

The big 3 get hammered because they sold so many trucks and SUVs. Well heaven forbid they sell what people wanted to buy. Nobody saw gas prices doubling in that short of a time frame, no more then anyone say them being cut in half even faster. The Jap makers were hauling ass to jump in on the craze. Look at the marketing blitz Toyota did for their big trucks, they wouldn't have bothered if they didn't see big sales numbers. The Japs makers were just better prepared with smaller cars because that's what their main market is, cause they live in overcrowded cities that don't have room for large cars. They don't have people driving hours to work each day, or houses and yards like we do that require trucks.

So I'm not sure what the govt or the auto makers can do at this point. They make great products, they have more hybrids, they have cars with great mileage, and still they can't sell. Maybe the govt should just give each family a couple grand and a low interest financing rate in order to buy an American made car. lol

[STANMAN]

They all had to have plans submitted, it wasn't just GM that submitted a plan. If you want to read all the plans in full, they are posted on Fox News. And Ford's 1st paragraph goes something like "we aren't like the other 2, we can remain afloat at this level forever, but if things get worse, or if one of our competitors goes under, we would like a 9 billion dollar LINE OF CREDIT available, using the existingTAARP (government loan) guidelines". That's what kills me, the big 3 who employ millions (think of the suppliers) of people are asking FOR A LOAN that's a fraction of the BAIL OUT (there's a HUGE difference there) that congress gave the banking industry that employees virtually no one. That bail out money was supposed to free up credit again, but instead all the greedy ass bankers did was cover all the bad debt they had already accumulated with it, they still aren't giving any loans with the money. This whole situation makes me want to vomit every time I think about it.

[Al]

Mabey Ford could say that they are axeing the Mustang and then reintroduce the Mustang II?!?

[STANMAN]

Mabey Ford could say that they are axeing the Mustang and then reintroduce the Mustang II?!?

Or axe the Mustang and come out with it's replacement....the Probe. Oh wait, they already tried that and Mustang people went crazy:rolf

[T-Bag]

You make no sence... Why would they cut their best sellers? (Aveo, Impala, HHR) And WHY would they keep the non-selling G5 when they have the Cobalt which is the exact same car and sells 100% better.

-Keep Chevy's current line-up.
-Rid Pontiac of the G5, SUVs and Mini-Vans. Keep the G6, G8, and Solstice
-Give Buick the Axe in the US, or possibly keep just the LaCrosse and Lucerne.
-GMC - Take the Specialty models (aka Denali) and give them a Chevrolet Badge, Mix styling queues from both trucks. Cut line otherwise.
-Cadillac - Keep as "Highline" for the older Generation
-Saturn - Cut. Rebadge selling models as Pontiacs or Chevrolets.
-Saab - Keep and market as "highline" to the younger Generation. Share some elements with the rest of the lines. (Such as Cross-Wheel Drive).

LMAO the Aveo and HHR do NOT sell well. The only reason the Impala sells well is because of what Chris said...rental sales. The G5/G6 are the best selling cars of Pontiac's lineup, the G8 doesn't sell PERIOD.

Pontiac should be geared towards the younger crowd, Saab is garbage as far as sales. This isn't about keeping what you like, its about an automotive company going down the tubes trying to save money.

I totally forgot about the shitfest that is Saturn, why that wasn't canned YEARS ago I don't know. Sure some of their product is decent now but only because its based off of chevy models.

[Slow Joe]

I agree with everything, though I wonder whats even left w/ Saab? 9-3 (love it) 9-5, and the new Turbo-X ? Priced too high, either leave it, sell it and let it be swedish, don't absorb either. Also it would take little money to make a Poncho variant of the Camaro into a Firebird, and if the Holden 2-door VE ever happens, a cheap GTO. The G8 is fine as is, little money at all was put into making it exist. Hmm take the middle east LHD variant and slap pontiac bumpers on it, worked fine last time, do it again.

That's the thing, Saab does only have the 9-3 (Sedan, SportCombi "wagon", and Convertible), the 9-5 (Sedan and SportCombi) and 9-7X (Much Nicer Trailblazer/Envoy derivitave) at this point. The Turbo X is a model of 9-3 which is better known as a 9-3 Aero X the X being for XWD (Cross-Wheel-Drive or AWD...) They do have a few concepts in the pipeline, including a 9-1 (being more of a base entry level car, seems to be similar to the Saturn Astra).

One of the things that "Saab Lovers" are upset about is the lack of a hatchback in the line-up. Maybe they should add a 9-3 Hatchback to the line-up...

[Slow Joe]

LMAO the Aveo and HHR do NOT sell well. The only reason the Impala sells well is because of what Chris said...rental sales. The G5/G6 are the best selling cars of Pontiac's lineup, the G8 doesn't sell PERIOD.

Pontiac should be geared towards the younger crowd, Saab is garbage as far as sales. This isn't about keeping what you like, its about an automotive company going down the tubes trying to save money.

I totally forgot about the shitfest that is Saturn, why that wasn't canned YEARS ago I don't know. Sure some of their product is decent now but only because its based off of chevy models.

Funny, I see TONS of HHRs on the road, hell I drive one (fleet car). The Aveo sells as a price point/gas mileage car.

Actually the G6 is the best selling car of Pontiac's line-up. The G5 is useless, just a rebadged Cobalt. Where the G6 isn't a rebadged Malibu.

I find it funny how you are saying "Saab is garbage for sales" take a stop down at the Saab Exchange in IL, they sell TONS... Maybe up here our non-negotiating Saab dealerships don't sell much, but Saab overall does decent from the dealerhsips I've talked to.

I could honestly care less if GM sold off Saab from a personal standpoint. I'd most likely buy another whether it's owned by GM or not.

Saturns are more based off of Opals and Euro cars than they are off of Chevrolets.

My point is that if they are marketing certian vehicles to certian crowds the Saab nameplate with their current line-up would be perfect to market towards the younger yuppie crowd. It has a "sports luxury car history".

[Goat Roper]

Very blunt, if not dire, Forbes write up on GM; http://www.forbes.com/2008/12/01/general-motors-outlook-biz-autos-cz_jm_1202bizgm.html?feed=rss_news

[PB86MCSS]

This also pretty much signals the death of the Camaro after one or maybe two model years if that.

Most if not all the research & development has been done on the Camaro already, time to make up for all of that sunk cost by selling units....so I don't forsee a 1-2 year model run. In order to make the money back they will need to run longer. And if the car sells well theres no way they keep it that short.

[Moparjim]

I'm surprised Chrysler has been able to remain as low profile about what's been going on there. They recently offered damn near every salaried employee buyouts, and TONS of people are now gone. At Kenosha, like 60 out of maybe 80-100 people were done as of last Wednesday before the holidays. There was a brief group exit interview then come Monday they suddenly have a handful of people to even run the plant. I heard the take rate at other plants like Belvedere and Sterling Heights was closer to 80-100%. Sure there was a lot of people they could stand to cut, but 80% of the workforce? There's literally noone left its like they are pre closing the places. I left a month ago voluntarily with no buyout to take a job at WE Energies. I would have loved to cash in but to me it was more important to take a GOOD job that I'm pretty sure my badge will let me into on any given day. I NEVER thought I would leave Chrysler I was there for 12 years and I'm Moparjim lol but that's how bad it got - I was nervous on any given day that I'd show up to find the plant closed with a for sale sign out front. Not only were they shedding people like crazy but they've quietly been taking tons of shutdown weeks - they've avoided it making the news because they've shut down rotating shifts and kept one shift working at all times so they must not have to report that the plant is shut down. There was no money to buy, fix, or do anything really - I couldn't even get a frikken pen without a huge hassle. There was absolutely no training allowed, no purchases without the plant manager's signature, etc. Last winter several people got hurt in the parking lot since they were saving money on salting and plowing. Meanwhile, the top execs still got 30 mil in bonuses a few weeks ago though...

[Rocket Power]

Pontiac needs to die. It's just rebadged other things, Matrix, holden ,cobalt and rental cars/G6. Kill either GMC or Chevy trucks, but they sure the F don't need two divisions to pump out the same truck.

[Cryptic]

Meanwhile, the top execs still got 30 mil in bonuses a few weeks ago though...

rewards for failure :durr

That sh!t pisses me off like no other :flipoff2:

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

Jeez Jim thats horrible, I guess that plant may die soon. Sounds like you found a secure job up there at the WIENERGIES.

[Poncho]

time for GM to import every damn Holden model they can!

[T-Bag]

time for GM to import every damn Holden model they can!

Why so they can sell like shit like every other holden import? Don't get me wrong they are fantastic cars...just not for today's market.

[BAD LS1]

rewards for failure :durr

That sh!t pisses me off like no other :flipoff2:

Its the corporate way! Thats how it work by us, "have a few good fuck ups under your belt? Your executive material!" so dont be suprised to see our favorite snake oil salesman going to run chrysler or something like that, gotta perfect resume going so far!

[Poncho]

Granted, I was being sarcastic, but it's just really really really bad timing. I don't think it's really the G8 that is a flop. It's the economy. It has nothing to do with styling, performance or just being a poorly built car. Pontiac sales last month alone were down over 53%. They will start getting cheap prices on these cars though, they have a "back inventory" of over 20,000 cars, or more than they've sold the entire year. People just aren't buying anything right now, it just started to get alot worse at the time when the G8 finally made it here. Check the sales on Chargers, I'm sure you'll find the same pattern, with the G8 outselling it.

Based on whats up w/ the G8, the Camaro isn't going to fare much better, #'s wise, but likely in the fucked market, will sell better than the rest

by the way, since you deemed the G8 as a failure, this is a list of the top 10 BEST selling sedans in the market right now and how long they are sitting on lots before getting bought.

* 2008 Toyota Prius: 15 days
* 2008 Pontiac G8: 16 days
* 2008 Toyota Camry Hybrid: 16 days
* 2008 Chevy Malibu: 21 days
* 2008 Lincoln Town Car: 21 days
* 2009 Toyota Camry: 22 days
* 2009 Hyundai Sonata: 29 days
* 2008 Toyota Avalon: 31 days
* 2008 Chevy Impala: 32 days
* 2008 Hyundai Azera: 35 days

If Pontiac or Saturn do survive, it's simply going to be an American arm of Opel/Vauxhall/Holden

[That_Guy]

Funny Saturn IMO finally makes some decent cars. Matter of fact I like the Saturn verison of their cars better then any of the other nameplates version.
so true!!!

[JC70SS]

Keep all brands except GMC. The truck/SUV thing is over.

**Main thing is get rid of all upper mgmt**

[T-Bag]

Its interesting to see the G8 up there...I haven't seen more than 3 or 4 of them driving around. Maybe they aren't the thing in this market area. I'm REALLY surprised to see it outselling the Malibu

[JC70SS]

Its interesting to see the G8 up there...I haven't seen more than 3 or 4 of them driving around. Maybe they aren't the thing in this market area. I'm REALLY surprised to see it outselling the Malibu

Well who the hell is going to buy a RWD car for a DD around here?? Not me.

[Slow Joe]

Here's Chrysler...


Nardelli: $1 Annual Salary; No Golden Parachute

December 03, 2008

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WASHINGTON, D.C. — Traveling to the nation's capital in a hybrid vehicle instead of a luxury jet, Chrysler chief executive officer Robert Nardelli joins his Big 3 peers this week in making a more detailed attempt at asking Congress to lend a hand to the battered U.S. auto industry.

After the three auto chiefs were criticized for lack of organization and lavish travel arrangements during their previous trip to Washington, Chrysler — along with General Motors and Ford — made a few changes.

For starters, Chrysler submitted a more specifically outlined plan to lawmakers in its request for a bridge loan — aid which Nardelli said is necessary for the automaker to stay afloat through the first quarter of 2009.

"Without an immediate working capital bridge, Chrysler's liquidity could fall below the level appropriate to ensure operations in the ordinary course by the first quarter of 2009," Nardelli stated.

Also, like his counterparts at GM and Ford, Nardelli said he has made concessions in order to receive help from Congress.

For instance, Nardelli said he now receives a $1/year salary and has given up his employment contract, change of control agreement, health care/life insurance benefits from the country and receives no "golden parachute."

The company also said it will be "well-positioned" to begin paying back its federal loan debt by 2012.

"So, who is contributing to saving Chrysler? First and foremost, Chrysler and its extended enterprise will. That starts with me," Nardelli said. "We are committed to negotiate concessions from all of our constituents."

How, exactly, does Chrysler plan to use the bridge loan, if one is granted? According to the proposal, the automaker will use $8 billion to make payments to parts suppliers and $1.2 billion would be allocated for other vendors.

Meanwhile, $900 million would go toward employee wages and $1 billion would be split evenly between health care/legacy costs and capital expenditures.

The automaker also plans to invest more in technology to improve the fuel economy of its lineup.

The Big 3 has often been criticized — though maybe unfairly — for being slow-moving when it comes to keeping up with their Japanese rivals in producing fuel-efficient models.

In response, Chrysler is launching 24 new products in the next four years, many of which will be smaller and more fuel-efficient. Moreover, the automaker indicated that 73 percent of its 2009 lineup will have better fuel economy than the 2008 models.

"I also believe that further partnership, restructuring and consolidation would make the U.S. auto industry even more viable and competitive in the long run. Further opportunities for technology sharing would provide fuel-efficient cars and trucks more cost effectively and faster to market," Nardelli added.

"The three-company alliance that developed the dual-mode hybrid is a good example," he continued. "As a country, we should not trade our current dependence on foreign oil for a future dependence on foreign technologies."

Moving on, Nardelli also emphasized the changes that Chrysler has already made since going private in 2007. According to officials, the OEM has cut 1.2 million units of volume and sliced fixed costs by $2.4 billion.

Chrysler has improved its quality scores from J.D. Power and Associates and cut warranty claims by 29 percent, he noted.

In conclusion, Nardelli commented: "I recognize that this is a significant amount of public money. However, we believe this is the least costly alternative considering the depth of the economic crisis and the options we face."

[Poncho]

If Donny is the weatherman, I appoint Joe as the official auto industry news bot

[97z2801ss]

Keep all brands except GMC. The truck/SUV thing is over.

**Main thing is get rid of all upper mgmt**

agreed, saturn makes some good stuff, rents just bought a 09 vue and Im seeing more and more of them.... I think some of the models from each need to go!

[97z2801ss]

Well who the hell is going to buy a RWD car for a DD around here?? Not me.

yea thats true, I think the g8 is very cool, but yea def not a DD around here. :rolf

[07ROUSHSTG3]

looks like they came to a deal.

ford > gm and chrysler


http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/05/breaking-congress-makes-tentative-deal-for-15-billion-in-autom/

[Got Boost]

Its kind of funny I realize this is a performance car site so everyone has passion to cars and Kenosha plant is doing bad and such ,,, But Viasystems in Oak Creek a company right here ( Although based in ST Lous) is closing, 238 people without a job and they arent even union. They make PCBs for the auto and other various industrys ..Not much local news even on this ...When and if the auto industry goes by the wayside as we know it .. people are going to loose jobs no matter what , that should be the biggest concern ....The big 3 are going to have to cut more jobs no matter what .... To many dealerships, Just look at how many GM dealers there are in Milw ??? Some are going to have to close , let people drive more than 15 miles to buy a car. So thats why this is going to be a snowball effect , people without a job arent going to buy a new car American or Import

[Moparjim]

Granted, I was being sarcastic, but it's just really really really bad timing. I don't think it's really the G8 that is a flop. It's the economy. It has nothing to do with styling, performance or just being a poorly built car. Pontiac sales last month alone were down over 53%. They will start getting cheap prices on these cars though, they have a "back inventory" of over 20,000 cars, or more than they've sold the entire year. People just aren't buying anything right now, it just started to get alot worse at the time when the G8 finally made it here. Check the sales on Chargers, I'm sure you'll find the same pattern, with the G8 outselling it.

Based on whats up w/ the G8, the Camaro isn't going to fare much better, #'s wise, but likely in the fucked market, will sell better than the rest

by the way, since you deemed the G8 as a failure, this is a list of the top 10 BEST selling sedans in the market right now and how long they are sitting on lots before getting bought.

* 2008 Toyota Prius: 15 days
* 2008 Pontiac G8: 16 days
* 2008 Toyota Camry Hybrid: 16 days
* 2008 Chevy Malibu: 21 days
* 2008 Lincoln Town Car: 21 days
* 2009 Toyota Camry: 22 days
* 2009 Hyundai Sonata: 29 days
* 2008 Toyota Avalon: 31 days
* 2008 Chevy Impala: 32 days
* 2008 Hyundai Azera: 35 days

If Pontiac or Saturn do survive, it's simply going to be an American arm of Opel/Vauxhall/Holden

Those statistics are being misinterpreted. Those are not the top ten best selling vehicles necessarily - that is just he average time on the lot. Since the G8 recently entered production and they are in short supply, as are the hybrids on the list. Pretty much every new model makes that list, as they are usually "hot" when released and there's only a trickle out to dealers until inventory is built up. That list doesn't give any data about how many are produced, so for all the reader knows there have been only 1,000 G8s sold versus 300,000 Camrys for example, making it no wonder that the G8 time on the lot is so low.

[07ROUSHSTG3]

Its kind of funny I realize this is a performance car site so everyone has passion to cars and Kenosha plant is doing bad and such ,,, But Viasystems in Oak Creek a company right here ( Although based in ST Lous) is closing, 238 people without a job and they arent even union. They make PCBs for the auto and other various industrys ..Not much local news even on this ...When and if the auto industry goes by the wayside as we know it .. people are going to loose jobs no matter what , that should be the biggest concern ....The big 3 are going to have to cut more jobs no matter what .... To many dealerships, Just look at how many GM dealers there are in Milw ??? Some are going to have to close , let people drive more than 15 miles to buy a car. So thats why this is going to be a snowball effect , people without a job arent going to buy a new car American or Import

gm, ford, and chrysler all want to shrink their dealership network closer to the size of toyota's. i anticipate that 1/3 of the domestic dealerships are closed within 3 years. they can't just close them up because they do not have the cash to buy them out, but from what i have heard they are going to use things like Customer Satisfaction and the overall number of cars sold to weed out the dealers that are not needed. location will play a part, put the manufacturers are looking at rebuilding their image also, so they don't want "bad" dealerships so to speak.

[07ROUSHSTG3]

Those statistics are being misinterpreted. Those are not the top ten best selling vehicles necessarily - that is just he average time on the lot. Since the G8 recently entered production and they are in short supply, as are the hybrids on the list. Pretty much every new model makes that list, as they are usually "hot" when released and there's only a trickle out to dealers until inventory is built up. That list doesn't give any data about how many are produced, so for all the reader knows there have been only 1,000 G8s sold versus 300,000 Camrys for example, making it no wonder that the G8 time on the lot is so low.

i was thinking the same thing about that list. very decieving.