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Prince Valiant
11-19-2008, 04:22 PM
***EDIT-to include new article below Mitt's that shows that Obama may be leaning to letting the BIG 3 go Bankrupt too***

I think Mitt's been getting my newsletter...but I haven't seen his name on the suscription rolls. I'll check into it.

Anyways, he paints what I think would be a pretty accurate picture of what would be potential benifits to the Big 3 declaring bankrupcy.


IF General Motors, Ford and Chrysler get the bailout that their chief executives asked for yesterday, you can kiss the American automotive industry goodbye. It won’t go overnight, but its demise will be virtually guaranteed.

Without that bailout, Detroit will need to drastically restructure itself. With it, the automakers will stay the course — the suicidal course of declining market shares, insurmountable labor and retiree burdens, technology atrophy, product inferiority and never-ending job losses. Detroit needs a turnaround, not a check.

I love cars, American cars. I was born in Detroit, the son of an auto chief executive. In 1954, my dad, George Romney, was tapped to run American Motors when its president suddenly died. The company itself was on life support — banks were threatening to deal it a death blow. The stock collapsed. I watched Dad work to turn the company around — and years later at business school, they were still talking about it. From the lessons of that turnaround, and from my own experiences, I have several prescriptions for Detroit’s automakers.

First, their huge disadvantage in costs relative to foreign brands must be eliminated. That means new labor agreements to align pay and benefits to match those of workers at competitors like BMW, Honda, Nissan and Toyota. Furthermore, retiree benefits must be reduced so that the total burden per auto for domestic makers is not higher than that of foreign producers.

That extra burden is estimated to be more than $2,000 per car. Think what that means: Ford, for example, needs to cut $2,000 worth of features and quality out of its Taurus to compete with Toyota’s Avalon. Of course the Avalon feels like a better product — it has $2,000 more put into it. Considering this disadvantage, Detroit has done a remarkable job of designing and engineering its cars. But if this cost penalty persists, any bailout will only delay the inevitable.

Second, management as is must go. New faces should be recruited from unrelated industries — from companies widely respected for excellence in marketing, innovation, creativity and labor relations.

The new management must work with labor leaders to see that the enmity between labor and management comes to an end. This division is a holdover from the early years of the last century, when unions brought workers job security and better wages and benefits. But as Walter Reuther, the former head of the United Automobile Workers, said to my father, “Getting more and more pay for less and less work is a dead-end street.”

You don’t have to look far for industries with unions that went down that road. Companies in the 21st century cannot perpetuate the destructive labor relations of the 20th. This will mean a new direction for the U.A.W., profit sharing or stock grants to all employees and a change in Big Three management culture.

The need for collaboration will mean accepting sanity in salaries and perks. At American Motors, my dad cut his pay and that of his executive team, he bought stock in the company, and he went out to factories to talk to workers directly. Get rid of the planes, the executive dining rooms — all the symbols that breed resentment among the hundreds of thousands who will also be sacrificing to keep the companies afloat.

Investments must be made for the future. No more focus on quarterly earnings or the kind of short-term stock appreciation that means quick riches for executives with options. Manage with an eye on cash flow, balance sheets and long-term appreciation. Invest in truly competitive products and innovative technologies — especially fuel-saving designs — that may not arrive for years. Starving research and development is like eating the seed corn.

Just as important to the future of American carmakers is the sales force. When sales are down, you don’t want to lose the only people who can get them to grow. So don’t fire the best dealers, and don’t crush them with new financial or performance demands they can’t meet.

It is not wrong to ask for government help, but the automakers should come up with a win-win proposition. I believe the federal government should invest substantially more in basic research — on new energy sources, fuel-economy technology, materials science and the like — that will ultimately benefit the automotive industry, along with many others. I believe Washington should raise energy research spending to $20 billion a year, from the $4 billion that is spent today. The research could be done at universities, at research labs and even through public-private collaboration. The federal government should also rectify the imbedded tax penalties that favor foreign carmakers.

But don’t ask Washington to give shareholders and bondholders a free pass — they bet on management and they lost.

The American auto industry is vital to our national interest as an employer and as a hub for manufacturing. A managed bankruptcy may be the only path to the fundamental restructuring the industry needs. It would permit the companies to shed excess labor, pension and real estate costs. The federal government should provide guarantees for post-bankruptcy financing and assure car buyers that their warranties are not at risk.

In a managed bankruptcy, the federal government would propel newly competitive and viable automakers, rather than seal their fate with a bailout check.

Here's the thing...this is stuff that WON'T happen either with a bailout, nor a purchase via either China nor India.

***NEW-Obama exploring pre-packaged bankruptcy for BIG 3***

Nov. 21 (Bloomberg) -- President-Elect Barack Obama's transition team is exploring a swift, prepackaged bankruptcy for automakers as a possible solution to the industry's financial crisis, according to a person familiar with the matter.

A representative of Obama's team has already contacted at least one bankruptcy-law firm to say that Daniel Tarullo, a professor at Georgetown University's law school who heads Obama's economic policy working group, would call to discuss the workings of a so-called prepack, according to this person.

U.S. lawmakers yesterday delayed until December a vote on whether to give General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC a $25 billion bailout. GM today said it would idle production at four plants an extra week and return some corporate jets to conserve cash. Automakers could use a judge-supervised bankruptcy to reduce debt and reject expensive contracts.

``It creates the environment to deal with GM's problems but limits government financial commitment,'' said bankruptcy lawyer Mark Bane of Ropes & Gray in New York.

Bankruptcy is just one option being examined. Obama told CBS News's ``60 Minutes'' on Nov. 16 that government aid to automakers might come in the form of a ``bridge loan,'' advanced if the industry could draw up plan to make itself ``sustainable.'' The president-elect earlier urged Congress to approve as much as $50 billion to save automakers, using the model of Chrysler's bailout in 1979.

Tarullo referred questions on a prepack to the transition team press office. Team spokeswoman Stephanie Cutter said, ``We have not put out anything specific for the auto industry except that something needs to be done immediately.''

No Cash

GM, the largest U.S. automaker, said it might run out of cash as early as the end of the year and that the risk was even greater by mid-2009. GM Chief Executive Officer Rick Wagoner said this week GM would have to liquidate if it filed for bankruptcy.

The automaker probably has weeks rather than months left before it runs out of money unless it gets federal aid, Jerome York, an adviser to billionaire Kirk Kerkorian and a former GM board member, told Bloomberg Television yesterday.

In a prepackaged bankruptcy, an automaker would go into court with financing in hand after reaching agreement with lenders, workers and suppliers on what each would give up and on the business plan to be followed. The process might take six to 12 months, compared with two to five years if the automakers followed an ordinary Chapter 11 proceeding and worked out agreements under a judge's supervision, Bane said.

Government Financing

Automakers would have to depend on government financing to restructure in bankruptcy court and probably couldn't attract private loans until they were ready to emerge from the process, Bane said.

Officials of the three automakers told members of Congress this week that they had studied a pre-arranged bankruptcy, championed by Republican lawmakers such as Senator Bob Corker of Tennessee, before dismissing the idea as unworkable.

``We have looked at all aspects, whether it's a prepackage, whether it's prenegotiated,'' Chrysler CEO Robert Nardelli told a Senate committee on Nov. 18. The options are all ``more negative'' than restructuring as a condition of receiving federal aid, he said.

Wagoner and Alan Mulally, CEO of Dearborn, Michigan-based Ford, also said under congressional questioning that their companies had studied and rejected the idea of reorganizing under court protection.

`Digging a Hole'

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said today that bankruptcy for automakers would be ``digging a hole far too deep.''

``Rather than going to that next step, let's hope we can solve it before that,'' she said at a briefing in Washington.

In or out of court, automakers will have to submit a viable business plan to gain government funds, Peter Peterson, senior chairman of Blackstone Group LP, said in an interview.

``Unless they can show us the plan, we can't show them the money,'' Pelosi said yesterday.

GM, Ford and Chrysler must submit viability plans by Dec. 2, and Congress would meet the week of Dec. 8 to consider aid, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said yesterday. Congress must see accountability from automakers, Pelosi said.

The congressional deadlock was triggered by disagreement over how to pay for the $25 billion the Big Three automakers are seeking.

Democratic leaders have demanded that the recently approved $700 billion bank-rescue fund be tapped for the auto aid. Their plan stalled with opposition from Republicans and President George W. Bush`s administration.

Administration Position

The administration joined Levin, Missouri Republican Senator Christopher Bond and others pushing an alternative that would tap fuel-efficiency loans instead for a bailout.

``There are other alternatives'' to a bridge loan for automakers, Senate Financial Services Chairman Christopher Dodd, a Connecticut Democrat, told reporters yesterday. ``The prepackaged bankruptcy is not an idea without constituency here.''

A bankruptcy is the ``only way'' for GM to end union costs that make it uncompetitive, Republican Senator James DeMint of South Carolina said in an interview on Bloomberg Radio.

United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger told Bloomberg Television today that he's ``at the bargaining table'' to help find ways to cut costs at U.S. carmakers, signaling that the union may be flexible in making concessions to push through an aid package for the auto industry.

`Logical Step'

``I look at the Republicans that say it shouldn't be saved and should be in Chapter 11, and I agree with that,'' said James Harris, President of Seneca Financial Group Inc., a restructuring advisory firm in New York. ``I look at the Democrats that say these businesses are very important to the economy, and I agree with that, so the logical step is a prepack,'' with some government financing, he said.

Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson said the $700 billion of the Troubled Asset Relief Program shouldn't be used to rescue automakers. ``There are other ways,'' he said at a Nov. 18 House hearing. Treasury Department spokeswoman Brookly McLaughlin declined to comment on the prepack proposal.

The collapse of GM would cost the government as much as $200 billion should the biggest U.S. automaker be forced to liquidate, Nariman Behravesh, chief economist at IHS Global Insight Inc. in Lexington, Massachusetts, estimates.

A GM failure would mean ``more aid to specific states like Michigan, Ohio, and Indiana, and more money into unemployment and extended benefits,'' Behravesh said Nov. 15.

The domino effect could be ``scary,'' said bankruptcy lawyer Martin Bienenstock of Dewey & LeBoeuf who teaches corporate reorganization at Harvard Law School and the University of Michigan Law School.

Bankruptcy would trigger failures of auto parts suppliers and dealerships, he said. Securitized auto loans and their insurers would fail, creating ripples through the credit markets, he said.

``The difficulty is assuring the American people that the bailout money won't simply defer the company's failure for six to 12 months,'' Bienenstock said.

Though my quible to the pre-packaging is that they (Obama's team) might still give some too favorable a deal as a political concession to a large part of their power-base. But still WAY better than what Pelosi's seeking.

Adam Brooks
11-19-2008, 05:32 PM
I think the big 3 need to go bye bye. They would rather put off developing electric cars to instead turbo charge everything while they figure out how electricity works. Meanwhile Tesla in Cali is building 100% electric super cars w/ a sedan due out soon... and they did it on 150 mil.

Hopefully the gov realizes that the 700 bill was a mistake (no question as to how that ones going) and wont repeat. Fortunately, the CEOs are clearly total morons since they flew separate private jets in to DC to ask for more money to pay some bills. Doesn't help their case
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/19/autos.ceo.jets/index.html?eref=rss_us

Slow Joe
11-19-2008, 05:40 PM
I think the big 3 need to go bye bye.

I disagree. I think that they should do some reorganization, not go away completely. If anyone thought we were in a recession now, think of what it would be like if all of that production left the US.

Adam Brooks
11-19-2008, 05:45 PM
It already has. But the same argument was made w/ outsourcing, robots, etc etc.

btw I totally realize everyone on here is a domestic owner. I am as well actually. My thoughts have zip to do with preference of automobile, just based on how businesses are ran.

Feature Pony
11-19-2008, 05:46 PM
I disagree. I think that they should do some reorganization, not go away completely. If anyone thought we were in a recession now, think of what it would be like if all of that production left the US.

Yeah and if the big 3 went bye, bye. this whole north america will be in a great depression and most likely we can kiss all of our jobs bye, bye as well. The auto industry employes a lot of people, people at dealer ships, people that supply the metals, interiors, gaskets, etc. Not just the factories that build them pretty much everything will take a hit. The big problem is the f***ing CEOs that are taking their golden parachute and bonuses that are not justified. Lets face it a lot of this recession was based on corperate greed by the CEOs!

Slow Joe
11-19-2008, 05:49 PM
The auto industry employes a lot of people, people at dealer ships, people that supply the metals, interiors, gaskets, etc. Not just the factories that build them pretty much everything will take a hit.

Exactly!

Adam Brooks
11-19-2008, 05:50 PM
I will clarify bye bye as = file for bankruptcy, not gone from existence. But yes there is a tremendous amount of arrogance from the CEOs and has been for a long long time. Thankfully, or un thankfully, 700 passed that is being totally wasted and mis used already. Well 250 of it. The terms of the deal have even changed bc it was being abused to bad. I may be giving to much credit to our gov but i think they may have actually learned that bailouts = bad

Feature Pony
11-19-2008, 05:51 PM
another thing is if all 3 disappear there will never be a another american car company because the tree huggers will put a stop to anything that is made in a factory over here. This damn country is becoming over run with the tree huggers it isn't even funny, these same people except other people to be riding their pedal bikes in -30 deg weather to save our world, while other countries laugh and pollute that much more like China. All I will say it will be a cold day in hell when you catch me riding my bicycle around in -30 degree weather.

Prince Valiant
11-19-2008, 05:53 PM
I think the big 3 need to go bye bye. They would rather put off developing electric cars to instead turbo charge everything while they figure out how electricity works.eref=rss_us[/url]I will defend the Big 3 on this...look at the Extended range electric vehicle coming out from Mopar (there will be a test fleet next year, and hopefully production in the next 2-3):

http://brewcitymuscle.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5769&stc=1&d=1227138355

These use an electric powertrain with a roughly 120-180 mile range...it goes on electric ONLY for propulsion. The "extended range" portion is met be a small, efficient gasoline (and one hopes in the future, diesel) that powers a generator to keep charging the battery on long trips...thus extending it's range to 600-700 miles on a constant trip. For most, ones trip to work and back can be completed on electric alone...and plugging in at the house at night. For long trips, the small gas engine kicks in to keep the current flowing, but gives you great efficiency, perhaps 30-40 mpg in a large platform such as a minivan.

I really like that they did it in the Wrangler too...not a convential platform for such tech, but does show the technology's flexibility. It shows that it's a viable solution that'll allow us to get the electric vehicles we may want/need, w/o sacrificing the kind of vehicles many still want (like trucks and SUV's).

Adam Brooks
11-19-2008, 05:56 PM
Haha the people on bikes are pretty silly I agree. I don't think that the big 3 never really evolving their business model until the last min has anything to do w/ tree hugging though. Consumers were simply not able to afford to keep up w. oil prices recently (or the no longer wished to do so) so they turned to alternatives.

Prince Valiant
11-19-2008, 05:57 PM
I may be giving to much credit to our gov but i think they may have actually learned that bailouts = badYou DO give too much credit to the gov't too...when Dems take their 58-60 seats come Jan 1st, they'll have a bail-out bill ready to send Pres Obama on Jan 21st.

Sprayaway Fox
11-19-2008, 06:01 PM
I like american cars but I think they should also. They knew for how long gas prices were going to get higher and that the imports do actually have a decent product. They designers that went to school, marketing people should of seen "the next trend" since everybodys been saying how well the imports are actually getting HP and milage. The unions are also at fault cause as everybody likes to make money, but you got to relize how much is cost effective to still have your product comprably priced to the competition. Chop the head off this monster and start over.

I just cant belive how all these people went to school for engine efficiency and all the other stuff that comes with it and they cant figure anything out. But you can get a joe schmoe that didnt even go to school to squeeze extra HP and Milage out of a combo. Sounds like someones sleeping at the wheel to me.

Adam Brooks
11-19-2008, 06:01 PM
PV I totally get and understand the direction they are going w/ electric cars etc. The problem people are having, including the feds, is why are we waiting 2-3 years for something that is already out? The technology is for sale, easily available and already in use and for some reason we're the last ones to figure it out and implement it.

GM was going to model the entire company based around the H2 while other companies were developing alternative tech. Oil goes nuts GM is forced to try to dump Hummer (which is still for sale) and now they're caught w/ their pants down. This is nothing new though, happened w/ the oil crisis in the 70s as well.

Granted there is no other truck id buy besides a chevy truck. bc its a good truck. But when i think of my truck and last years "luxury" escalade, its the same damn snapped together stuff that we've seen for almost 20 years now.... thats the hang up people are having

Adam Brooks
11-19-2008, 06:02 PM
You DO give too much credit to the gov't too...when Dems take their 58-60 seats come Jan 1st, they'll have a bail-out bill ready to send Pres Obama on Jan 21st.

haha i know! thats a problem

Sprayaway - dont even get me started on unions, another reason these guys were literally forced to sell huge volumes of cars at a near loss/loss to please the UAW

God, other hang up i have is the former Ford board member on CNBC this morning whining about how we're the only nation w/o government subsidized manufacturing. I'm pretty we lost a lot of men and women all over the world to fight for our freedom from that communist/socialist crap and to keep our markets Free

Sprayaway Fox
11-19-2008, 06:14 PM
:rolf Sounds good, Im not union, but I think they can be positive if ran correctly. But gotta say the big three products look bland, no edgy styling. Did you know that the Dodge Ram design was actually Fords, but they scrapped it! Look at what it did for there sales for a couple of years! Just sad to see that When you think of words like Chevelle or Camaro or C10, Vega, Nova and then you look at what we got today......Yeah no wonder why they cant sell stuff. Usually when a family runs Chevy the kids run Chevys. 07 can attest to this with my own rides my dad is a ford guy my mom is a Chevy girl and that is all I ever bought in my lifetime...So far.

Goat Roper
11-19-2008, 06:29 PM
Any company that pays a guy $70,000 a year to tighten lug nuts on cars as they move down an assembly line needs a reorg.

lordairgtar
11-19-2008, 06:37 PM
You know, the US automakers don't just make trucks and SUVs. I think there are a lot of really nice cars out there. I bought a new Chevy HHR in July of '07, and not one thing has ever gone wrong with the little trucklet. I know that it's not everyone's cup of tea, but there are decent small efficient US cars available. The quality is there. Cobalts, Malibus (which are available as a hybrid too), Fusions (another that can be had as a hybrid.) Not everyone needs a big truck. Bring wages and bennies more in line to what the Toyota and Nissan American workers have and bring the cars made in Mexico back to the US. My car is Mexican built with a US built Ecotech engine, but it's still North American, not like the Korean built, Aussie engined, Japanese designed Chevy Aveo.

Goat Roper
11-19-2008, 06:40 PM
Bring wages and bennies more in line to what the Toyota and Nissan American workers have and bring the cars made in Mexico back to the US.

Found this interesting


GM's per-hour labor rate for car assembly is about $75 per hour, compared to $40 to $45 for other car companies. That particular disadvantage, says Cole, will be "gone by the end of next year," when a new labor agreement goes into effect

Windsors 03 Cobra
11-19-2008, 07:13 PM
I think the big 3 build a bunch of really nice cars, its really too bad its come to this.
Sure wont be the first and probably not the last tho.

The big 3 are damned if they do and damned if they don't so I don't even want to speculate what is going to happen with them. I guess I don't support propping them up.
I think some folks might be weary of buying a car from a company in bankruptcy.
I think some folks might be pissed off, alienated, disgusted by a company firing folks and rehiring people for half the wage, A pension dissolution would surely make some Americans mad.
The way Cerberus bought GMAC and used it as a weapon against GM is hurting GM, also with the downturn in the economy its not exactly a mad rush at the auto stealers.

Todd Z
11-19-2008, 08:48 PM
If you study economics and understand corporate bankruptcy that is simply the best answer. If they went away completely we would be looking ar another depression. Instead the people that really take the hit on bankruptcy would be stock holders (that is already near worthless), executives, retired employees and current companies that have receivables with the big three. The bail out is simply a bad idea and bankruptcy / REORGANIZATION is the better plan. Yes it would be great if both could be avoided but that is simply not going to happen.

VroomPshhTsi
11-20-2008, 08:46 AM
http://brewcitymuscle.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5769&stc=1&d=1227138355


That yellow one is pretty good looking (the body, not digging the color)

jbiscuit
11-20-2008, 08:57 AM
if the big 3 close up shop, we are all in for the worst depression we will ever know. Like said earlier, detroit has a direct relationship with THOUSANDS of jobs. Reataurants will close up by the factories where workers eat lunch, gasket makers go belly up, tool and die companies go away, tire companies take a huge hit and potentially collapse as well...the list goes on and on. We can't afford to have them go bankrupt.

Slow Joe
11-20-2008, 09:32 AM
PV I totally get and understand the direction they are going w/ electric cars etc. The problem people are having, including the feds, is why are we waiting 2-3 years for something that is already out? The technology is for sale, easily available and already in use and for some reason we're the last ones to figure it out and implement it.

GM was going to model the entire company based around the H2 while other companies were developing alternative tech. Oil goes nuts GM is forced to try to dump Hummer (which is still for sale) and now they're caught w/ their pants down. This is nothing new though, happened w/ the oil crisis in the 70s as well.

Granted there is no other truck id buy besides a chevy truck. bc its a good truck. But when i think of my truck and last years "luxury" escalade, its the same damn snapped together stuff that we've seen for almost 20 years now.... thats the hang up people are having


GM and other auto manufacturers have had the technology for Electric Cars since the 90s.

Ever seen "Who Killed The Electric Car?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car

GM had the EV1 back in the 90s, it was marketed by Saturn, and wasn't a huge hit. They only allowed leasing of the vehicle, and at the ends of the leases they pulled all of them, with no option to buy and crushed/dismantled them and a few went to museums. There were other EV cars by Toyota, Honda, Ford, etc...

Cryptic
11-20-2008, 10:28 AM
OMG, a car discussion on BCM :goof

I agree with Mitt 110%. Awesome post.

My favorite quotable's :thumbsup

Second, management as is must go.


Getting more and more pay for less and less work is a dead-end street.

Starving research and development is like eating the seed corn.

shoooo32
11-20-2008, 11:58 AM
Cryptic is spot on.

PB86MCSS
11-20-2008, 11:12 PM
Good article by Mitt....I like him more than McCain, too bad he didn't make it further.

It still seems some people don't realize a bankruptcy isn't going to kill the Big 3 or make them go away, they will still be around.

88Nightmare
11-20-2008, 11:43 PM
just to reiterate on what others already said


there are many businesses, right here in southeastern wisconsin that rely on the automakers to give them business. everywhere in the country would be hurting very badly if those automakers were gone. The american built vehicles I've owned were all great.

My 97 and 98 mustang were great. My 1984 silverado, 85 suburban, 94 silverado, 95 silverado, 2002 and 2006 silverados were all fantastic trucks. The Trailblazer SS is an awesome SUV to drive. Our 2007 Saturn Aura is nothing we ever would have expected from saturn. And im sure many others are happy with their domestics too.

lordairgtar
11-20-2008, 11:45 PM
damn 88, I just spit soda all over my keyboard after seeing your avatar

88Nightmare
11-21-2008, 12:42 AM
lol

Prince Valiant
11-21-2008, 12:53 PM
Updated the original post to reflect new developments---see above.

Adam Brooks
11-22-2008, 01:48 PM
Follow Bob Corker closely:
listen to his questioning of the execs
http://corker.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=NewsRoom.Multimedia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXGffWLCjLM

http://corker.senate.gov/public/

Cliff notes from the hearing:
Ford is financially in better shape than the rest w/ ~23 billion in cash
Chrysler is 2nd
GM is the one in the worst shape

Once 25billion is given to them, they will be back for more

They have decided to devide the 25billion based on market share Not based on who needs it the most

none have any plan to put the money to use

Each company should be worked with on and individual basis as well as laws/union contracts revised to allow for their business to actually make a profit.

Reverend Cooper
11-22-2008, 02:28 PM
all I can say is thank god I work for Toyota