Question @ auto companies...

[Smokey1226]

If GM was to go under because of no bailout, Allison would then leave their contract. So that would be either Ford or Dodge would pick them up for their trucks. Most likely Dodge due to Ford not doing so hot either......

A cummins backed by an allison with a warranty sounds mighty nice!!!

OR

Ford ditches their current engine builders and picks up cat and signs with Allison....

F250 Superduty with a Cat under the hood and a Allsion to back it up :headbang Sign me up for 2!

[Reverend Cooper]

none of the big 3 will go under

[88Nightmare]

considering GM and Chrysler are talking about a merger, and because of that a lot of chryslers line will dissapear, I dont picture GM going under

[Smokey1226]

i never said it wasnt wishful thinking. However I would love to see it happen!

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

I don't really get why people don't think GM could die, some have claimed GM could die by the end of the year unless GM receives free money from the gubmint.
I suppose folks thought the same of Allis Chalmers or Kearney and Trecker.

Anyway I agree the taxpayers will give GM corporate welfare and if GM dies the taxpayers will pay out huge amount to GM pension holders anyway, so either way the taxpayer loses. I just hope those labor contracts get reworked once the bail out occurs, would feel bad making peanuts bailing out bigtime UAW workers.
I sure hope GM does not get their mitts on ChryCo as that would be disastrous for all involved.
Ford is going to build and sell their own diesel engine, too many woes between Ford and the Cornbinder Co. Allison trans in a Ford ? Meh, I rather see a ZF.

[88Nightmare]

look how many times ford was close to going under. Back in 2006 I believe in the 3rd quarter they lost so much money, it was the equivelant of one mustang every minute. Meanwhile they are still here producing their junk. Just like coop said, none of the big 3 will die

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

Ford is going to lay off 23,000 auto workers for 3-4 weeks over the next 2 months. Bad news for Ford.

[Al]

So. . . what are the profit margins of GM and where is the money going?

What percentage of the wholesale price of a GM/Ford/Chysler goes to maintaining pensions and other benefits?

[Rocket Power]

If they don't get a bailout they'll file for bankruptcy , reorganized and ditch the contracts that are killing them and come back .
Kmart came back after bankruptcy and bought Sears

[Waver]

for starters, Ford is losing cash at a slower rate than gm/chrysler....a lot of that is because of the moves they did a few years ago. That on top of them being rated as good if not better than toyota/honda, says to me that Ford will be along for a while.

Gm will find a way to get bailed out...if not they will just kill another money sucking brand, like buick or hummer or somthing to stay afloat.....just like they did to olds.

Chrysler.....well say hello to the newest brand in the gm line....somthing tells me that there eigther the name Chrysler or Dodge wil go out the window, probably Chrysler, and you will see cars like the 300 be sold under the dodge name....

[wrath]

If they don't get a bailout they'll file for bankruptcy , reorganized and ditch the contracts that are killing them and come back .
Kmart came back after bankruptcy and bought Sears

They don't want a bailout. They want a low-interest loan. You know the kind, the ones at 1.5-2% that everyone in the financial industry gets... they aren't looking for free money like AIG. They just want low-interest loans.

If they file for bankruptcy they might hang in there like Mitsubishi has. Barely with shit vehicles that no one has any faith in the warranty on. If they file for bankruptcy they'll never be able to buy affordable parts again. The suppliers will charge so much for parts they'll have to go back to building everything themselves again. Not to mention many of the suppliers are barely hanging in there right now so if GM/Ford/Chrysler were not to pay for parts they've already produced... then don't order any for 4 or 5 months... all those suppliers would be gone.

KMart came back after bankruptcy after screwing a bunch of investors like me and merged with Sears a very short time later. It's not called Kmart Holding Company, it's called Sears Holding Company. SHC is fscked anyway. Nike won't even sell their shoes to Sears and you can find Nikes at poopholes like Famous Footwear.


for starters, Ford is losing cash at a slower rate than gm/chrysler....a lot of that is because of the moves they did a few years ago. That on top of them being rated as good if not better than toyota/honda, says to me that Ford will be along for a while.

Ford isn't losing money as fast because they don't own anything. Which is why they're in the worst shape: they can't sell anything. The ratings have little to do with quality anymore, it's all about perception. GM and Ford have all their plants checked by ISO for quality control. Toyota has a select few. Now that "Toyota is at the top" they're going to be gunned down just like the domestics. One of the reasons Toyota is "at the top" is cheap labor and no overhead so they can sell their cars for a little less and dump the profits into things like Formula 1. Another reason is that they issue very few recalls and TSBs. For Toyota to recall anything it has to be forced.


Gm will find a way to get bailed out...if not they will just kill another money sucking brand, like buick or hummer or somthing to stay afloat.....just like they did to olds.

They aren't looking to be bailed out. They're looking for cheap loans... the kind it was able to get just 8 months ago.

Buick is the #1 selling brand in China. GM doesn't make much money on Buick here but it's a cash cow in Asia. Hummer will probably go away and be a niche vehicle like Range Rover.


Chrysler.....well say hello to the newest brand in the gm line....somthing tells me that there eigther the name Chrysler or Dodge wil go out the window, probably Chrysler, and you will see cars like the 300 be sold under the dodge name....

Chrysler is going to disappear. They *might* keep the LX platform (300/Magnum/Charger) but I doubt it. They'll ax the LC platform (Challenger). The Caravan and Dodge Ram 2500HD+ will stay. The SUV line will disappear except for WK (Grand Cherokee). The KA platform is toast (Liberty/Nitro). The Aspen/Durango is already toast. The JK will stick around since it's so cheap to make and is so profitable but the JKU will disappear. Since the PM/MK platform is actually the Mistubishi GS platform the Caliber/Avenger/Sebring/Compass/Patriot/Journey all are going to get axed if GM buys Chrysler. Otherwise they'll stick around.

Chrysler can't make it without making some hard decisions. And likely the retards that run Cerberus (one was a previous white house wannabe) are too worried about how they're going to sell Chrysler rather than making it profitable again.

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

$25 or 50 Billion Loan, Uh there is no way GM can pay it back, so it is "free money" as you say.
They cant pay the bills now, whats different in 6 days ? 6 Months ? 6 Years?
GM has been selling subsidiaries for years infusing the cash to "make it another year closer to profitability" that hasnt happened and Hughes, EMD, DD, Delco are all gone, they want to sell the Ren Center now.
Good luck, the horse is dead man.

Got my 6.5 Td engine oil cooler lines today. 2 of them for $80, made in china. :thumbsup

[Prince Valiant]

Yes, it IS a bailout...

GM/Chrysler/Ford darn near HAS to fail imo...Dems want to "bail" them out so that Unions can keep their contracts/obligations/etc, when this is a BIG reason why the big 3 find themselves here today. Bail them out today, and in a few years, we'll find ourselves in the exact same position we are in now.

They been running shoddy business for YEARS now, and it needs to catch up with them.

Bankruptcy isn't the end-all...it'll likely be what saves them.

[Rocket Power]

yes, it is a bailout...

Gm/chrysler/ford darn near has to fail imo...dems want to "bail" them out so that unions can keep their contracts/obligations/etc, when this is a big reason why the big 3 find themselves here today. Bail them out today, and in a few years, we'll find ourselves in the exact same position we are in now.

They been running shoddy business for years now, and it needs to catch up with them.

Bankruptcy isn't the end-all...it'll likely be what saves them.
qft

[Rocket Power]

They don't want a bailout. They want a low-interest loan. You know the kind, the ones at 1.5-2% that everyone in the financial industry gets... they aren't looking for free money like AIG. They just want low-interest loans. They're pissing out money like a drunk at a strip club. how are they goping to pay it back. Answer , they won't, hence it's a bailout. Which will only work in the short term becuause they'll still be under the sh*tty contracts that are one of the things that got them into this mess. How can you compete when $2-3K per car is for benefits when Toyota is only pay about $200/car. There sh*t ain't that good. More fat trimming is needed like axing Pontiac, GMC, Saturn and Buick.
Why is GMC still around? It's a redundant vehicle in a climate that people aren't buy ing trucks/suv like they used to.

[Breecher_7]

Hummer and GMC need to go. Hummer is a waste of money, there are NOT enough people who buy them. And GMC, What the hell is the point? They are the SAME trucks and SUVs with a different badge.

Same goes for Ford, I dont understand why they dont dump Mercury.

[Karps TA]

Sure will suck when all those people lose their jobs. Not just the people who directly work for the Big 3.

$25 billion may sound like a lot of money. But think about unemployment benefits being paid to people, an additional credit crisis as all these people can no longer pay their bills.

That's some pretty damn big dominos being knocked over just to make a point and it pretty much destroys the very little manufacturing we still have left in this country.

It's not just a car plant that gets closed down. It's dealerships, it's suppliers like Strattec here in town, the companies that supply the factories with light bulbs and office supplies. The vending company who stocks their machines, and the restaurants in the area who lose all their business.

Much like the bank bailout, it's not what you can see as an improvement right away, it's about how bad things could get if something isn't done.

I don't know the answer, but I have a hard time seeing that putting tens of thousands of people out of jobs is the right way of doing things and is whats best for our country.

[Waver]

Ford isn't losing money as fast because they don't own anything. Which is why they're in the worst shape: they can't sell anything. The ratings have little to do with quality anymore, it's all about perception. GM and Ford have all their plants checked by ISO for quality control. Toyota has a select few. Now that "Toyota is at the top" they're going to be gunned down just like the domestics. One of the reasons Toyota is "at the top" is cheap labor and no overhead so they can sell their cars for a little less and dump the profits into things like Formula 1. Another reason is that they issue very few recalls and TSBs. For Toyota to recall anything it has to be forced.



What do you mean Ford dosnt own anything? Last I checked (30 secs ago) they still owned Mazda, Volvo, and Sterling. They are staying afloat by getting rid of the non profitable car lines, like jaguar and land rover, made changes in management, and made a better car that could compete with the imports. Has Gm really done that? That is probably why ford has 45 of the top 100 vehicles sold in the united states, in both sales as well as quality.....obviously the jap cars havent fallen from their quality pedistal, because they are still rated a high over all value. And who gives a fuck if buick is a best seller in china.....The Ford Focus is a best seller all over the world, and ford makes a lot of money off of them. Besides that, it seems as if only the chineese and the elderly are buying buicks these days. Gone are they days ofthe nice turbo and supercharged buicks that we grew up with...it is time to face the facts.....Buick is probably next on the chopping block for Gm.

Oh and if gm thinks it is a good idea to kill the jeep name, they are a bunch of idots....Jeep has too big of a following to kill it, hence why the Grand Cherokee and the Jeep wrangler will always be profitable.

[Breecher_7]

What do you mean Ford dosnt own anything? Last I checked (30 secs ago) they still owned Mazda, Volvo, and Sterling. They are staying afloat by getting rid of the non profitable car lines, like jaguar and land rover, made changes in management, and made a better car that could compete with the imports. Has Gm really done that? That is probably why ford has 45 of the top 100 vehicles sold in the united states, in both sales as well as quality.....obviously the jap cars havent fallen from their quality pedistal, because they are still rated a high over all value. And who gives a fuck if buick is a best seller in china.....The Ford Focus is a best seller all over the world, and ford makes a lot of money off of them. Besides that, it seems as if only the chineese and the elderly are buying buicks these days. Gone are they days ofthe nice turbo and supercharged buicks that we grew up with...it is time to face the facts.....Buick is probably next on the chopping block for Gm.

Oh and if gm thinks it is a good idea to kill the jeep name, they are a bunch of idots....Jeep has too big of a following to kill it, hence why the Grand Cherokee and the Jeep wrangler will always be profitable.

Heres a fact for ya. The dealer group you work for sells more chevy's then anything else (other then toyotas). And as far as the fords go, you sell almost double the amount of used cars then you do new. GM FTW!!! :banana

[That_Guy]

cat wont be putting an engine in anything other than earth movers as of next year i believe

[2006wrxtr]

So. . . what are the profit margins of GM and where is the money going?

What percentage of the wholesale price of a GM/Ford/Chysler goes to maintaining pensions and other benefits?

$2600 of every GM car built goes to retirey benefits....

[Karps TA]

It's not just because of labor rates. Germany has as high if not higher labor rates then we have and somehow that country's automakers do just fine.

IMO the biggest reason for the Big 3 failures is that the US is the largest group of hypocrites on the planet. We go to Walmart every 4th of July and buy a t-shirt made in Pakistan for $4 cause it has a US flag on it and says a fancy slogan. We thump our chests and tell everyone how great we are and then run out and buy a Camry cause Consumer Reports tells us US cars are junk, then a national tragedy happens like 9/11 and we put a bumper sticker on our foreign car to be patriotic. We as a country only have National Pride when it comes to bumper stickers and country music songs.

Anytime the Big 3 come out with a car that is a good car, people make excuses not to buy it. Oh the name is a bad name, or I got burned on a bad Chevy 22 years ago and never buy one again. If not that then it's, They don't make any cars that get good mileage. Well my Monte get's 23 city which for a full size car is pretty damn good IMO, my friends aren't getting that in their Hyundai or Camry. They have a bunch of models getting as good if not better mileage then their foreign competitors.

[STANMAN]

GM isn't buying Chrysler, the only reason they even wanted to in the first place is to get at Chrylsers cash reserves. Cerebrus basically told GM to go fuck itself, it's borrowing arm (GMAC) can't even borrow anyone money to buy a car and has recently split from GM, how is GM itself supposed to buy anything:rolf

The government will not "bail out" the big 3, it will give them a loan with LOTS of stipulations attached. Remember, the auto industry is already earmarked for 25 billion of that 750 billion we just gave away to make "cleaner" cars. The government will basically do away with that stipulation and make the money available for more important things than making sure the endangered one eyed hoot owl has a nesting tree 100 billion years from now:rolleyes:, like the last true bastion for American manufacturing doesn't go down the sewer.

Realize this is ALOT more than just the jobs at the big 3. If ANY of them went under, the amount of jobs would be 100X just the auto plants themselves in suppliers. The auto industry is the backbone of America, and those in high places know it. I also love the argument of "well, they are mismanaged, they should just be allowed to fail". Well, hindsight is 20/20, and the big 3 have definately gotten themselves into Gods green acre here (east of the rock, west of the hard place:rolf), but remember, we just bailed out a sector that was grossly mismanaged by people who KNEW they were fist ******* the system. ALOT of the automakers problems have NOTHING to do with mismanagment!!! That doesn't even start to address the suppliers who have ran their companies wonderfully (like the one where I work) and would fail regardless of how they were ran if the big 3 fail.

[wrath]

$25 or 50 Billion Loan, Uh there is no way GM can pay it back, so it is "free money" as you say.
They cant pay the bills now, whats different in 6 days ? 6 Months ? 6 Years?
GM has been selling subsidiaries for years infusing the cash to "make it another year closer to profitability" that hasnt happened and Hughes, EMD, DD, Delco are all gone, they want to sell the Ren Center now.
Good luck, the horse is dead man.

Got my 6.5 Td engine oil cooler lines today. 2 of them for $80, made in china. :thumbsup

Why can't they pay it back? They have paid back all their other loans. Says a lot when a beat up old rusty company can pay back their loans but the financial companies can't. It's bad this time because they got caught changing clothes behind a screen that got blown over.

GM has been selling crap off to get out from under labor costs. Just like everybody else. And it's been working so well at Delphi and American Axle.


Yes, it IS a bailout...

GM/Chrysler/Ford darn near HAS to fail imo...Dems want to "bail" them out so that Unions can keep their contracts/obligations/etc, when this is a BIG reason why the big 3 find themselves here today. Bail them out today, and in a few years, we'll find ourselves in the exact same position we are in now.

They been running shoddy business for YEARS now, and it needs to catch up with them.

Bankruptcy isn't the end-all...it'll likely be what saves them.

It's not about just those union laborers. It's about what all those union laborers support. As we go to a society that doesn't expect medical care or retirement help we're going to need to be paid more. When I'm 30 years older I sure as hope I don't make the equivalent of what my Dad makes. I wouldn't have a pot to piss in. Because what these auto workers make isn't enough to raise a family on and pay for retirement... and medical benefits.


They're pissing out money like a drunk at a strip club. how are they goping to pay it back. Answer , they won't, hence it's a bailout. Which will only work in the short term becuause they'll still be under the sh*tty contracts that are one of the things that got them into this mess. How can you compete when $2-3K per car is for benefits when Toyota is only pay about $200/car. There sh*t ain't that good. More fat trimming is needed like axing Pontiac, GMC, Saturn and Buick.
Why is GMC still around? It's a redundant vehicle in a climate that people aren't buy ing trucks/suv like they used to.

Those benefits are what keeps a couple million people in this world going. I personally don't think a mailman should be paid $18-23/hr to walk around and stick pieces of paper into holes. Or that they should have a pension and benefits *better* than someone that physically wears their body out. While only having to do it for 20 years. If you think these union workers are paid such ridiculous amounts look at your fellow man. There are plenty of tradespeople on this forum and I bet there are some government workers also.

Having GMC, Saturn, and Pontiac around doesn't cost GM any money. I asked GM why they kept what I saw as an entirely too similar vehicle around even each had different features. It seems that it costs them almost nothing to keep all those different models around. It's having different *platforms* and different *plants* open that costs money now. It was difficult for GM to decide to build the Chevrolet Traverse at a different plant than the GMC Acadia, Buick Enclave, and Saturn Outlook. They're all the same platform with the same powertrain. They all have different options and while they look very similar to me, they all appeal to entirely different people. And it turns out that the Chevrolet Traverse mildly impacted Acadia sales but had no affect on the rest. Ford keeps their other brands around for the same reason.


Hummer and GMC need to go. Hummer is a waste of money, there are NOT enough people who buy them. And GMC, What the hell is the point? They are the SAME trucks and SUVs with a different badge.

Same goes for Ford, I dont understand why they dont dump Mercury.

See above.


What do you mean Ford dosnt own anything? Last I checked (30 secs ago) they still owned Mazda, Volvo, and Sterling. They are staying afloat by getting rid of the non profitable car lines, like jaguar and land rover, made changes in management, and made a better car that could compete with the imports. Has Gm really done that? That is probably why ford has 45 of the top 100 vehicles sold in the united states, in both sales as well as quality.....obviously the jap cars havent fallen from their quality pedistal, because they are still rated a high over all value. And who gives a fuck if buick is a best seller in china.....The Ford Focus is a best seller all over the world, and ford makes a lot of money off of them. Besides that, it seems as if only the chineese and the elderly are buying buicks these days. Gone are they days ofthe nice turbo and supercharged buicks that we grew up with...it is time to face the facts.....Buick is probably next on the chopping block for Gm.

Oh and if gm thinks it is a good idea to kill the jeep name, they are a bunch of idots....Jeep has too big of a following to kill it, hence why the Grand Cherokee and the Jeep wrangler will always be profitable.

Buick sold 250,000 worldwide last year... almost as many as GMC.

September 2008 Ford and GM sales. I don't know if it was a particularly good month for GM or what but GM sold more CARS in the month of September than Ford sold TOTAL VEHICLES.
http://media.ford.com/pdf/september08sales.pdf
http://www.media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=6&docid=49175

The Toyota Corolla is the best selling car in the world. #2 is the F150.

Ford doesn't even sell 45 cars.

[wrath]

GM isn't buying Chrysler, the only reason they even wanted to in the first place is to get at Chrylsers cash reserves. Cerebrus basically told GM to go fuck itself, it's borrowing arm (GMAC) can't even borrow anyone money to buy a car and has recently split from GM, how is GM itself supposed to buy anything:rolf

Cerberus owns controlling interest in GMAC. So by raising the standard of lending to "nobody under FICO 700" they have essentially fscked GM. The whole reason they did it was to force GM's hand. Heck, you don't even have much of a chance of getting a car loan from GMAC if you have less than a FICO score of 760. Cerberus also owns Chrysler Financial who hasn't changed their standards for lending at all.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601213&sid=am.hB81anEHU&refer=home

[Cryptic]

When you hear about retired janitors making 70k/year in pensions... The Big3 deserve to go under IMO.

[wrath]

When you hear about retired janitors making 70k/year in pensions... The Big3 deserve to go under IMO.

That's some funneh shit right there.

GM employees get ~$3k/month pension when they retire as of right now. So try $36,000/year pre-tax. Or roughly $26k post-tax.

http://www.uaw.org/contracts/07/gm/gm06.php

[Karps TA]

I think there's more rumours and "I know a guy who knows a guy who's brother said" with the big 3 than any other companies in the world.

[Rocket Power]

That's some funneh shit right there.

GM employees get ~$3k/month pension when they retire as of right now. So try $36,000/year pre-tax. Or roughly $26k post-tax.

http://www.uaw.org/contracts/07/gm/gm06.php

Cry me a river, I'd like to retire on that. I make in that neighboorhood now.

[Cryptic]

I saw something on TV about it... They interview a couple of retired employees and my mouth hit the floor when they said how much they made. Ex-janitors... I can't backup my post more than that.

[Sprayaway Fox]

GM stop producing the current cars.. Fire up the dies from the musclecar era and put all your modern stuff in it. Sounds like a good deal to me. GM owns like 60 percent of market. If they go under we all do.

I also seen in a paper what a lady that cleans the bathrooms in the offices makes. If I remember correctly it was triple didgits a year!

[Karps TA]

Same pension stuff happens here in Milwaukee county. The paper yesterday had a story on a guy who will end up getting nearly $1 mil in pension benefits despite never making more then $70K a year. That's the unions fault, not GM. The Big 3 have no teeth against the unions cause the unions have the backing of the govt when push comes to shove.

[Waver]

Why can't they pay it back? They have paid back all their other loans. Says a lot when a beat up old rusty company can pay back their loans but the financial companies can't. It's bad this time because they got caught changing clothes behind a screen that got blown over.

GM has been selling crap off to get out from under labor costs. Just like everybody else. And it's been working so well at Delphi and American Axle.



It's not about just those union laborers. It's about what all those union laborers support. As we go to a society that doesn't expect medical care or retirement help we're going to need to be paid more. When I'm 30 years older I sure as hope I don't make the equivalent of what my Dad makes. I wouldn't have a pot to piss in. Because what these auto workers make isn't enough to raise a family on and pay for retirement... and medical benefits.



Those benefits are what keeps a couple million people in this world going. I personally don't think a mailman should be paid $18-23/hr to walk around and stick pieces of paper into holes. Or that they should have a pension and benefits *better* than someone that physically wears their body out. While only having to do it for 20 years. If you think these union workers are paid such ridiculous amounts look at your fellow man. There are plenty of tradespeople on this forum and I bet there are some government workers also.

Having GMC, Saturn, and Pontiac around doesn't cost GM any money. I asked GM why they kept what I saw as an entirely too similar vehicle around even each had different features. It seems that it costs them almost nothing to keep all those different models around. It's having different *platforms* and different *plants* open that costs money now. It was difficult for GM to decide to build the Chevrolet Traverse at a different plant than the GMC Acadia, Buick Enclave, and Saturn Outlook. They're all the same platform with the same powertrain. They all have different options and while they look very similar to me, they all appeal to entirely different people. And it turns out that the Chevrolet Traverse mildly impacted Acadia sales but had no affect on the rest. Ford keeps their other brands around for the same reason.



See above.



Buick sold 250,000 worldwide last year... almost as many as GMC.

September 2008 Ford and GM sales. I don't know if it was a particularly good month for GM or what but GM sold more CARS in the month of September than Ford sold TOTAL VEHICLES.
http://media.ford.com/pdf/september08sales.pdf
http://www.media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=6&docid=49175

The Toyota Corolla is the best selling car in the world. #2 is the F150.

Ford doesn't even sell 45 cars.
You are right, the brand name ford dosnt have 45 cars, however I was referring to the company FORD MOTOR COMPANY which sells 52.

Besides that, the Company, which I will refer to as FMC only has 5 brands under its flag, where as Gm has what, 9? I hope they will sell more cars than FMC. Maybe you should do your research a little better and get the whole side from all sources like I do. I sell all makes and models of cars, I work at one of 5 dealerships, 2 being gm, 2 being ford, and 1 being Toyota....I know what the sales numbers are. I also know about how many vehicles that FMC sells as a result.

[wrath]

You are right, the brand name ford dosnt have 45 cars, however I was referring to the company FORD MOTOR COMPANY which sells 52.

Besides that, the Company, which I will refer to as FMC only has 5 brands under its flag, where as Gm has what, 9? I hope they will sell more cars than FMC. Maybe you should do your research a little better and get the whole side from all sources like I do. I sell all makes and models of cars, I work at one of 5 dealerships, 2 being gm, 2 being ford, and 1 being Toyota....I know what the sales numbers are. I also know about how many vehicles that FMC sells as a result.

I can't even get to 45 counting everything Ford sells. Even Volvo.

Did you bother to look at the link I posted? It's Ford's September 2008 sales numbers. Are you telling me that Ford forgot some of their vehicles and therefore their results are junk? I mean, after all, they sold as many Lincoln and Mercury automobiles as GM sold Cadillacs. That can't be right. :durr

I'd like to know how you got to 52 FMC vehicles without including submodels (aka F150, F250 PooperDuty, et cetera as different vehicles). And I'd like to know your source for "45 in the top 100".

[Rocket Power]

Where do we stop bailing companies out?
Should my kid get a bailout because her lemonade stand isn't making it?:goof

I would be affected personally if they went under because my work involves needing cars from manufacturers, but it's gotta stop somewhere. With as much as they have to pay in benefits to current and former workers, they're not going to be able to compete with companies like Hyundai,Honda, Toyota, BMW,etc. who all have plants here and don't have the same costs. Giving them a bailout/loan/whatever the F you want to call it is just delaying the inevitable. The are bleeding money and something has to change or our tax money will just be pissed away.

[Karps TA]

Do you really think this economy can handle hundreds of thousands of more on unemployment?

I guess I understand people wanting to the Big 3 to learn a lesson but I have a hard time with the fact that the ones that need to be taught the lesson are the handfull of upper management at the companies who already have a bunch of money, will likely get nice severance packages and be on their way to new high paying jobs in a couple months. Meanwhile all the people who just do their jobs as being asked are the ones who will be made to suffer. Doesn't exactly seem like we're going to hurt the right people to me.

[Waver]

I can't even get to 45 counting everything Ford sells. Even Volvo.

Did you bother to look at the link I posted? It's Ford's September 2008 sales numbers. Are you telling me that Ford forgot some of their vehicles and therefore their results are junk? I mean, after all, they sold as many Lincoln and Mercury automobiles as GM sold Cadillacs. That can't be right. :durr

I'd like to know how you got to 52 FMC vehicles without including submodels (aka F150, F250 PooperDuty, et cetera as different vehicles). And I'd like to know your source for "45 in the top 100".

my source is consumer reports for the 45 is consumer reports and jd power and associates........

total number of car lines in FMC according to their official website (http://www.ford.com/):
Ford: 18 different models, not including the different levels of super duty and te different levels of e series vans (Superduty is now its own line, seperate from f-150)
mercury:6
lincoln: 7
mazda: 11
volvo: 9

so when added up 18+6=24+7=31+11=42+9=51 total cars here in america...sorry I was off by one..

I did read your link, however you are baising it on just spetember sales....how can you bais a whole year ofsales off of one month? I see how you are not arguing the quality point that I made though