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View Full Version : Kalishnikov vs. Stoner



STANMAN
11-10-2008, 06:26 PM
We have lots of gun people on this board.........discuss the pros and cons of each mans design.

That_Guy
11-10-2008, 06:33 PM
I prefer the ak over the stoner just because im not really a fan of the mag positioning on the stoner. but it is cool how they made different mag designs. or mag less design..

STANMAN
11-10-2008, 06:57 PM
I am talking about the Stoner that doesn't have his name on it, lol. His most famous design that Colt basically stole from him (he was working for Colt at the time).

Russ Jerome
11-10-2008, 07:53 PM
Im bias, spent years late at night doing lines with Michael, Eugenes
son in MPLS. Michael is dead now but regardless Im still a AR10/15/M16
fan for life.

The design was ahead of its time, look at MOA auto designs today they
are all based of the Stoner 15/16 design. I remeber the hardest thing
about owning an M-16 based AR was finding a clip with enough spring
load to feed it fast enough not to jam...that a neat problem to have!

That_Guy
11-10-2008, 08:06 PM
I am talking about the Stoner that doesn't have his name on it, lol. His most famous design that Colt basically stole from him (he was working for Colt at the time).

:rolf ohhhhhhhh idk the ak is still pretty reliable. its a coin toss

MurphysLaw88GT
11-10-2008, 08:32 PM
The AR shits where it eats....but I like how bolt locks up into barrel extension. Love A2 sights and long sight radius of 20 inch models.ERGONOMICS!Ar has accuracy and utter flexability.The mags suck compared to other weapon systems. The only real limitation is the magwell dimensions on the M-16/AR-15. The lug nearest xtractor can someimes fail due to assymetrical forces placed on bolt, but I have never personally seen it.
Kalashnikov is utterly reliable, accuracy is much less than Stoner designs (but competant user can help), short sight radius/tangent rear sight can go to hell,but works, cheap, simple, nothing to break really. Easy to build from a kit in a garage. But the other Kalashnikov designs like PK-series (insert variation here) are excellent GPMGs.This is a debate that will never end, each have their own merits. I think I will take an FAL for a decent compromise in accuracy, and I dig 7.62x51mm and having a gas regulator, just dont like to pay for it.

I have an AR I am building, as well as many AK series in 7.62x39mm and 5.45x39mm. I like both designs, so I get both.

STANMAN
11-10-2008, 08:46 PM
The AR shits where it eats....but I like how bolt locks up into barrel extension. Love A2 sights and long sight radius of 20 inch models.ERGONOMICS!Ar has accuracy and utter flexability.The mags suck compared to other weapon systems. The only real limitation is the magwell dimensions on the M-16/AR-15. Kalashnikov is utterly reliable, accuracy is much less than Stoner designs (but competant user can help), short sight radius/tangent rear sight can go to hell,but works, cheap, simple, nothing to break really. Easy to build from a kit in a garage. But the other Kalashnikov designs like PK-series (insert variation here) are excellent GPMGs.This is a debate that will never end, each have their own merits. I think I will take an FAL for a decent compromise in accuracy, and I dig 7.62x51mm and having a gas regulator, just dont like to pay for it.

I have an AR I am building, as well as many AK series in 7.62x39mm and 5.45x39mm. I like both designs, so I get both.

Uh oh, someone mentioned the FNFAL! Heavy bugger it is!!! If we are bringing up "other" weapons systems, give me a G3 over an FNFAL (I have both, lol).

For me, I like both, but if the world ended, I would take an AK over the AR I guess. 100% reliable (AR's can be to, but you have to keep them cleaner than an AK), durable as all get out, ammo and mags can be found just about anywhere, and hell, even stamped out sheet metal has to be better than aluminum right??? If it's not "apocolypse" time, give me the flexibility and accuracy of the AR platform any day!



Stoner never got the credit he deserved, and Mikail will die soon as a very poor man in mother Russia. Funny how the worlds 2 most popular assualt rifle designers follow similar paths. Mother Russia (and the 100's of knock offs that have followed) has profited from Mikail's masterpiece, and Colt got the patent to the AR for what boils down to Eugene's salary.

MurphysLaw88GT
11-10-2008, 08:56 PM
Yes...yes, delayed roller bowback is really simple/accurate operating system. I used to have one, but it went bye-bye for other things

That_Guy
11-10-2008, 09:00 PM
my girlfriends uncle has a g3 its a freakin sweet rifle

MurphysLaw88GT
11-10-2008, 09:03 PM
Uh oh, someone mentioned the FNFAL! Heavy bugger it is!!! If we are bringing up "other" weapons systems, give me a G3 over an FNFAL (I have both, lol).

For me, I like both, but if the world ended, I would take an AK over the AR I guess. 100% reliable (AR's can be to, but you have to keep them cleaner than an AK), durable as all get out, ammo and mags can be found just about anywhere, and hell, even stamped out sheet metal has to be better than aluminum right??? If it's not "apocolypse" time, give me the flexibility and accuracy of the AR platform any day!


Stoner never got the credit he deserved, and Mikail will die soon as a very poor man in mother Russia. Funny how the worlds 2 most popular assualt rifle designers follow similar paths. Mother Russia (and the 100's of knock offs that have followed) has profited from Mikail's masterpiece, and Colt got the patent to the AR for what boils down to Eugene's salary.


Agreed

That_Guy
11-10-2008, 09:08 PM
i dont mind my sks... as my accurate russian made rifle but its no dragunov

STANMAN
11-10-2008, 09:41 PM
i dont mind my sks... as my accurate russian made rifle but its no dragunov

Yeah, real SVD's are a little pricey, even for this cowboy. The PSO-1 scope, however, is not. So, if I want to play russian sniper I just throw the PSO on a regular AK and pretend it's an SVD:rolf

Russ Jerome
11-10-2008, 09:43 PM
All the design flaws of the AR15/16 were due to the US Governmant and
what they wanted. When Eugene worked for Armalite he has a gas design
that used the 308 round (you know it as the AR-10 now) and they bowed
for the government contract.

Eugene Stoner knew exactly how the indestructable AK was designed and
knew he could do better. The modern Armalite AR-10 is as Eugene wanted
it when he penned it 40yrs ago.

I've seriously spent countless hours with his son Michael, he was an
incredible source of knowledge on his dad's ideas. His dad worked for
Armalite in the early 1950's http://www.armalite.com/default.aspx

STANMAN
11-10-2008, 09:58 PM
All the design flaws of the AR15/16 were due to the US Governmant and
what they wanted. When Eugene worked for Armalite he has a gas design
that used the 308 round (you know it as the AR-10 now) and they bowed
for the government contract.

Eugene Stoner knew exactly how the indestructable AK was designed and
knew he could do better. The modern Armalite AR-10 is as Eugene wanted
it when he penned it 40yrs ago.

I've seriously spent countless hours with his son Michael, he was an
incredible source of knowledge on his dad's ideas. His dad worked for
Armalite in the early 1950's http://www.armalite.com/default.aspx

He then worked for Colt for a short period of time, and they basically shafted him by stealing his design correct? That's what's in everything I have ever read on the subject anyway. If there's more to the story, lets hear it!! Was his son as smart as Eugene was???

MurphysLaw88GT
11-10-2008, 10:12 PM
I dig this Dutch AR-10 website

http://www.ar10.nl/

Russ Jerome
11-10-2008, 10:21 PM
If there's more to the story, lets hear it!! Was his son as smart as Eugene was???

Well high speed power boats off the Florida coast was his speciialty, he
was definately a smart cookie....plenty of money but the adreniline of
playing Miami Vice was his hobby. Great guy, kill for his friends.

The common rumors are true, Eugene worked for Armalite and probably
designed the best rifle ever for the US Gov to see, the AR-10-308:
http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to/video/how-to-learn-about-the-armalite-ar-10-245442/
The internet has probaly got all the trivia but the end was Colt got the
contract and built a GUTTED version NOT THE ARMALITE AR-10 that Eugene
designed years earlier. Watch the tape above, Im told the mud test is not
setup and I know a military issue Colt will NOT FIRE after a bath like that.

I wish I wrote down all the stories Michael told about his dad Eugene, I
honestly never had any idea who I was partying with all those years!
I was 16 in MPLS (Im 45 now) and he was a close friend of my family who
had questionable buisness practices back then. Michael passed away in
NM after years of rehab and relapse, free spirit and cool as hell.

MurphysLaw88GT
11-10-2008, 10:34 PM
Never handled either model, but from what I have read, the Stoner 62, 63A, and MK23 MOD 0 were pretty stout designs.

STANMAN
11-10-2008, 10:35 PM
Well high speed power boats off the Florida coast was his speciialty, he
was definately a smart cookie....plenty of money but the adreniline of
playing Miami Vice was his hobby. Great guy, kill for his friends.

The common rumors are true, Eugene worked for Armalite and probably
designed the best rifle ever for the US Gov to see, the AR-10-308:
http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to/video/how-to-learn-about-the-armalite-ar-10-245442/
The internet has probaly got all the trivia but the end was Colt got the
contract and built a GUTTED version NOT THE ARMALITE AR-10 that Eugene
designed years earlier. Watch the tape above, Im told the mud test is not
setup and I know a military issue Colt will NOT FIRE after a bath like that.

I wish I wrote down all the stories Michael told about his dad Eugene, I
honestly never had any idea who I was partying with all those years!
I was 16 in MPLS (Im 45 now) and he was a close friend of my family who
had questionable buisness practices back then. Michael passed away in
NM after years of rehab and relapse, free spirit and cool as hell.



Man, I would have killed for that experiance, but then again I would have noticed the name right away and asked about it. Sounds like his son was quiet the partier, and he must have gotten his own money, because the way he got the shaft from Colt, he wasn't living on daddies money!!!

Russ Jerome
11-10-2008, 10:50 PM
Michael had the biggest lifted trucks back back before
you could buy aftermarket stuff, he had custom Harleys
before it was cool. Michael walking thru your door was like
having a Hells Angel walk up, unshaved and driving a
new Trans Am.....he had no formal job if you know what
I mean.

Here is his dad and a friend:
http://762x39.net/images/stoner-kalisnakov.jpg
Thats Eugene on the right, the little guy on the left built
a very reliable gun himself but by his own admission was
never designed to be a long range sniper gun.

I suppose now that Im old and no longer can party, Michael
is gone now I can say this: My 17th birthday present was
a LARGE plastic bag full of white stuff, we didnt have crack
or any other crap back then so it was a $3000 party favor.

I dont want to paint a dark picture of him, probably one
of the coolest guys I ever met. Like a few other friends I
have they will kill for you and your family, cross them or
there family and your not gonna hide far enough away.

u_say_go
11-10-2008, 10:55 PM
gun talk is so boring! I used to work for a firearms distributor in milwaukee years ago and I quit from the shear boredom of gun talk.
I use a 1970's Mossberg 500 12ga. for trap, pheasant, and deer...and I NEVER miss. The gun is probably worth $10, but I'll smoke all you suckas shooting trap! :goof

Russ Jerome
11-10-2008, 11:05 PM
Your right shooting is more fun :) Eugen and Michael
had a favorite gun:
http://www.gunsamerica.com/950099994/Guns/Rifles/Knights-Manufacturing-Rifles/Knight_MFG_Stoner_SR_25_308_7_62_with_LEUPOLD.htm
Eugene did make money with Knight manufaturing, not
sure if Michael got any dough but he did have a few of
these^^^

My first full auto fire was with the above gun, was hooked
on the concept but my 157# body couldnt handle the
308 if full fire. I eventualy got an Eagle Arms AR and
converted it to full auto (no provision for single, wife
made me sell it) and had a blast here in WI chasing
squirels and killing dead trees!

STANMAN
11-10-2008, 11:24 PM
Your right shooting is more fun :) Eugen and Michael
had a favorite gun:
http://www.gunsamerica.com/950099994/Guns/Rifles/Knights-Manufacturing-Rifles/Knight_MFG_Stoner_SR_25_308_7_62_with_LEUPOLD.htm
Eugene did make money with Knight manufaturing, not
sure if Michael got any dough but he did have a few of
these^^^

My first full auto fire was with the above gun, was hooked
on the concept but my 157# body couldnt handle the
308 if full fire. I eventualy got an Eagle Arms AR and
converted it to full auto (no provision for single, wife
made me sell it) and had a blast here in WI chasing
squirels and killing dead trees!


Cool pic of Mikail and Eugene!! And good ole Eagle Arms. I still have pre-ban lower of theirs:thumbsup It's odd that Eagle Arms back in the day was the major side, and Armalite was the smaller portion, and now they have completly changed roles. I wonder if Michael ever had to use one of his dads designs to help pursuade anyone to "do the right thing", lol.

Rocket Power
11-10-2008, 11:28 PM
Gotta give it to the AK for reliability. Just shot 2 different AR15's for the first time in the past few weeks. One with an EO tech sight :headbang and the other just irons. Love the no recoil and I thought my AK had no recoil, i was wrong. I also love the CETME I built. Surprisingly low recoil for a .308 . Haven't shot a FAL yet, that and the G3 system, were the guns I thought were the coolest when I was growing up.
I guess it all depend on the use.
No cleaning kit and getting dirty ...AK
Lots of ammo and somewhat longer range/better accuracy.... AR.
Need some punch in your Battlerifle.... G3/CETME
Getting dirty and have buckshot... Saiga 12ga in reg. AK clothes :D

ND4SPD
11-11-2008, 07:19 AM
I've fired a FAL... pretty significant recoil compared to my other buddy's HK91. Basically parroting everything that's been said here. The direct gas impingement of the AR design gets it dirty really quick. But if you can keep it clean it's a great rifle. The AR (basically a knock off of the Sturmgewehr 44 (MP43/MP44) tolerates being abused much more readily than the AR. My main issue with the AK and G3/CETME/HK91 is their weight... they are damn heavy. Now for pulling one out and plinking every few weeks or so, that's not a big deal. But when you have to lug one around (along with all of your other equipment) for hours,days,weeks at a time... it gets old real fast.

Now, HK has recently come out with their iteration of the AR... called the HK416. It does away with the direct-gas system and replaces it with a proprietary short-stroke system that keeps the gun much cleaner (and therefore much more reliable). They've come out with a civilian version and if they find some way to get it here (or build some receivers here in the states) I plan to get one... immediately before B.O. can ban them.

As far as power... there's no doubt the 5.56 is nowhere close to the 7.62 in terms of stopping power. BUT... if you can use a converted upper that chambers say the 6.5 Grendel, or the 6.8 you can get pretty close to the 7.62's power. Of course then you lose ammo interoperability with other units. I think if it were me and I had a choice... I'd take a 6.5 or 6.8'ed AR into the field with me (and keep the standard 5.56 upper in my pack) or use an HK416. I suppose you could also use an AR upper that's chambered for 7.62. Just my thoughts.

USMARINE1108
11-11-2008, 09:01 AM
I like both for different reasons, but when it comes down to it, I'd have to go with the M14. ;)

If that wasn't availabe, I'd have to go with the AR. It's hard to make a head shot at 300 yds with an AK. All "accuracy vs reliability" aside, I'm an AR guy.

Rocket Power
11-11-2008, 09:54 AM
I've fired a FAL... pretty significant recoil compared to my other buddy's HK91. Basically parroting everything that's been said here. The direct gas impingement of the AR design gets it dirty really quick. But if you can keep it clean it's a great rifle. The AR (basically a knock off of the Sturmgewehr 44 (MP43/MP44) tolerates being abused much more readily than the AR. My main issue with the AK and G3/CETME/HK91 is their weight... they are damn heavy. Now for pulling one out and plinking every few weeks or so, that's not a big deal. But when you have to lug one around (along with all of your other equipment) for hours,days,weeks at a time... it gets old real fast.

Now, HK has recently come out with their iteration of the AR... called the HK416. It does away with the direct-gas system and replaces it with a proprietary short-stroke system that keeps the gun much cleaner (and therefore much more reliable). They've come out with a civilian version and if they find some way to get it here (or build some receivers here in the states) I plan to get one... immediately before B.O. can ban them.

As far as power... there's no doubt the 5.56 is nowhere close to the 7.62 in terms of stopping power. BUT... if you can use a converted upper that chambers say the 6.5 Grendel, or the 6.8 you can get pretty close to the 7.62's power. Of course then you lose ammo interoperability with other units. I think if it were me and I had a choice... I'd take a 6.5 or 6.8'ed AR into the field with me (and keep the standard 5.56 upper in my pack) or use an HK416. I suppose you could also use an AR upper that's chambered for 7.62. Just my thoughts.
There are others making gas piston uppers, with out the HK wait and price:thumbsup

ND4SPD
11-11-2008, 01:01 PM
Yes, there are... but none will approach the level of quality of HKs. ;)

MurphysLaw88GT
11-11-2008, 04:03 PM
I've fired a FAL... pretty significant recoil compared to my other buddy's HK91. Basically parroting everything that's been said here. The direct gas impingement of the AR design gets it dirty really quick. But if you can keep it clean it's a great rifle. The AK (basically a knock off of the Sturmgewehr 44 (MP43/MP44) tolerates being abused much more readily than the AR. My main issue with the AK and G3/CETME/HK91 is their weight... they are damn heavy. Now for pulling one out and plinking every few weeks or so, that's not a big deal. But when you have to lug one around (along with all of your other equipment) for hours,days,weeks at a time... it gets old real fast.

Now, HK has recently come out with their iteration of the AR... called the HK416. It does away with the direct-gas system and replaces it with a proprietary short-stroke system that keeps the gun much cleaner (and therefore much more reliable). They've come out with a civilian version and if they find some way to get it here (or build some receivers here in the states) I plan to get one... immediately before B.O. can ban them.

As far as power... there's no doubt the 5.56 is nowhere close to the 7.62 in terms of stopping power. BUT... if you can use a converted upper that chambers say the 6.5 Grendel, or the 6.8 you can get pretty close to the 7.62's power. Of course then you lose ammo interoperability with other units. I think if it were me and I had a choice... I'd take a 6.5 or 6.8'ed AR into the field with me (and keep the standard 5.56 upper in my pack) or use an HK416. I suppose you could also use an AR upper that's chambered for 7.62. Just my thoughts.

TOTALLY DIFFERENT OPERATING SYSTEM!!!

Ergonomically similar,both select fire firing intermediate cartridges. but totally different mechanically.

AK has rotating bolt,, MKB42H,MP43,MP44, STG44 Has Tipping (or tilting if you prefer) Bolt.

ND4SPD
11-11-2008, 04:45 PM
You're right, the knock-off comment was an overstatement as I was primarily referring to the ergonomics. Mechanically the AK in it's early stages was influenced by the M1 Garand.

MurphysLaw88GT
11-11-2008, 04:54 PM
You're right, the knock-off comment was an overstatement as I was primarily referring to the ergonomics. Mechanically the AK in it's early stages was influenced by the M1 Garand.

correct....although many dont like to hear it

Taetsch Z-24
11-22-2008, 07:36 PM
Ill take the accuracy of a AR any day of the week over a AK's "thrown rock" 100 yard groups.

If i want rugged, and far reaching accuracy , I can always go in to the armory and grab a M1A/M14.

Chris

MurphysLaw88GT
11-22-2008, 10:24 PM
My Polish does not do MOA groupings...average 2.5-3in@100m (wolf fmj). But I would not feel comfortable with a competent operator behind the trigger shooting at me.