Well the Hot Rod lives !!

[BAD LS1]

Well after 2 days of reassmebling the good ole LS1 from short block condition, with my new Patriot stg II 5.3 heads, LG motorsports G5X2 cam, and Ati Damper, Comp R lifters.

I lit it off last night, it started instantly and imediatly found its idle and sounds lumpier than ever and the thing just sounds bad ass !!! you can tell its got some healthy compression now @ 10.8:1 to be exact and its just snotty as fu-ck. Havent driven it though being the fact the front bumper and all is still off, but im going to finish bleeding the cooling system tonight and let it burn some of the residue off the headers etc...

:3gears:

[JohnnyT]

Cool Tommy! Looks like she is going to be a force to be reckoned with this summer... :3gears:

[95 TA - The Beast]

Kickass!!! :rockwoot:

I get a ride don't I? :devil

I guess the wifes car was just putting a little heat on, huh? :goof

I just hope you have better luck with Comp Rs than a LOT of others have had... they don't make them anymore for a reason, that being that if they are set wrong they tend to fall apart... Hell a bunch of people that set them right still had them fall apart... :eek:

[jbiscuit]

NICE WORK TOM!!!!!! Maybe now you can pick both front tires up!

[BAD LS1]

Dont scare me on those lifters like that man LOL:goof

I need it to hold up till i can get a big cube short block for it.

I didnt see any major amounts of negative feed back on ls1tech on those lifters so that why i went with them. They do seem alot beefier than the stockers anyhow and much quieter to say the least !!! They were limited to a slight clatter for 3-5 sec and cleared right up. Where as the stockers would take about a min for the heavy ticking to go away LOL.

Yeah im hoping it should be pertty snotty, not getting my hopes up till i get a rough idea of what i can make it do first.

The heads flow 296CFM @ .600"/28" water (intake) and 220 cfm with same stats on the exhaust. 61CC combustion chambers.

Cam is .595-.609 -238-242 @.050" 112 LSA, and has made 430 rwhp on stock heads on several occasions.

[Prince Valiant]

Are you taunting me?


lol, good kill on the project completion....if you've got a warm garage I'm towing my sh*t to your place then to finish up.:goof

[jbiscuit]

my new double decker aluminum wing netted 386 awhp in my wagon this past week on pump gas running so pig rich I connected a milk jug to my tailpipe and caught all the unspent gas and dumped it back in the tank. Not only am I cleaning up the environment, I haven't put gas in my car in 3 weeks!:durr

[BAD LS1]

Dennis,

On those lifters, i have "about" .015" -.020" preload on them using stock non adj rockers, i can manually lift the front part of the rocker where it contacts the vlave stem and lift it a good .050". With the rockers torqued to 22 ft/lbs as recomended im still able to turn the pushrods with just slight friction. i read that The Comp R's are touchy to preload but i dont have a way to acuratly measure preload other than just by looking at how far the pushrod moves down into the lifter when tightening, and its not very much at all. I read the comp R's like the least preload possible but im not goingto shim the rocker mounts ext and use dif length pushrods though. It was nice and quiet and ran strong for the few min i had it running so im pretty confident the preload wasnt a factor at this point yet.

[95 TA - The Beast]

SSSUUURRREEEE, you HAD to go ahead and go with a BIGGER cam than the white TA, didn't you??? :fire :goof ;)

The heads sound pretty similar flow wise... (but of course the LS1s have an edge there :D )

What kind of valve-springs are you running on that setup for such high lift?

In running sims for the white cars setup I have figured out that 1.6 intake rockers help it a bit, where-as for a LT1 the 1.5s on the exhaust help low-end driveabiltiy while only giving up like 5-8 top-end HP...

I will say, even for an LS1, that cam is going to be HELL to drive below 2000rpm... you might get lucky and still have some driveability at 1700-1800, btut below that I would imagine it would lug pretty hard...

But then again, you are looking at mainly the 4000+rpm range... :cool2:

[95 TA - The Beast]

Originally posted by BADDLS1SS
Dennis,

On those lifters, i have "about" .015" -.020" preload on them using stock non adj rockers, i can manually lift the front part of the rocker where it contacts the vlave stem and lift it a good .050". With the rockers torqued to 22 ft/lbs as recomended im still able to turn the pushrods with just slight friction. i read that The Comp R's are touchy to preload but i dont have a way to acuratly measure preload other than just by looking at how far the pushrod moves down into the lifter when tightening, and its not very much at all. I read the comp R's like the least preload possible but im not goingto shim the rocker mounts ext and use dif length pushrods though. It was nice and quiet and ran strong for the few min i had it running so im pretty confident the preload wasnt a factor at this point yet.

For what I know about the Comp Rs, you won't know about issues until the 'anti-pump' technology comes into play around 6000+rpm... It is up there where the lifters fall apart unfortunately... From what I have been told, the lifters work fine and normal under 5000rpm, it is just above there where the oil pressures skyrocket and the lifters 'do thier thing' so to speak....

Some people use them and have great results, there just have been too many cases of problems, and with Comp dropping them completely without a replacement part, I jsut err on the side of caution and stay away from them, but I do hope you have good luck... If they have worked for you in the past, then why mess with something that works? ;)

Dennis

[BAD LS1]

Im using the double springs and titanium retainers and keepers that Patriot installs, they are evidently really good springs and can handle up to .650" of lift.

Any thoughts on that preload though?? i ve read that it only becomes a real issue if your heads have been milled and stuff like that other wise its pretty much safe to torque the rockers down and run it with stock deck height like that of which i have. Now wheni can lift the front of the rocker off the stem and push the rod into the lifter that much more that tells me i still have a ton of room in the lifter for oil and dont have excessive preload.

[95 TA - The Beast]

Originally posted by BADDLS1SS
Im using the double springs and titanium retainers and keepers that Patriot installs, they are evidently really good springs and can handle up to .650" of lift.

Any thoughts on that preload though?? i ve read that it only becomes a real issue if your heads have been milled and stuff like that other wise its pretty much safe to torque the rockers down and run it with stock deck height like that of which i have. Now wheni can lift the front of the rocker off the stem and push the rod into the lifter that much more that tells me i still have a ton of room in the lifter for oil and dont have excessive preload.

Don't forget tho, just because the lifter isn't pumped up and you can press the preload spring in the lifter down doesn't mean that you don't have too much preload...

Once the pushrod has no more play in it (as in while rotating the pushrod you tighten down the rocker nut, once the pushrod has 'drag' on it you are at zero lash... anything more is preload...)

For Comp Rs with adjustable polylocks in SBC applications they recommend no more than 1/4 turn total past zero lash and most guys shoot for 1/8 turn past zero lash total... What I mean by total is the amoutn to preload added to the amount you add additionally by locking down the polylock... So most guys just get zero lash, then tighten down the polylock set screw, then turn both the polylock and the set screw 1/8 turn to formally lock them...

Without going out and measuring a 7/16" stud and polylock I couldn't tell you the exact distance it is for 1/8-1/4 turn on a 7/16" polylock... But .020" isn't thtat much, and you will probably be fine with it...

I really didn't intend to make you worry about the lifters, but more or less be careful when setting them up to make sure they are set properly... The best way would be to use different length pushrods after using a pushrod length check to dtermine the proper length at zero lash... Then once you tighten them you get like .010" preload... Which I would imagine is somewhere around 1/8 turn on a polylock (just guessing, but you see where I am going)...

Dennis

[95 TA - The Beast]

Also, the reason I asked about the springs is because I have used quite a few different springs myself and have found even with dual springs with dampners anything over .580 lift can cause valve float... I have some model of Comp valvesprings on the white car right now and with 1.6 rockers and .574/.595 lift I am noticing some breakup up top that I beleive to be valve float... I will be running some 1.52 rockers in the next month or two and will see if that limits the problem to determine if it really is float or not... I mean realistically it could be just running too lean, but per O2 readings it seems fine (I jacked the fuel pressure with 24# SVOs to make them 'act' like 30# units, but I really need some 36# injectors for this car)...

So, I will try the 1.52s and if they don't do it I guess I will be switching springs to something a little stouter... But the heads currently have dual springs with dampners and titanium retainers...

[BAD LS1]

The LS1's you basically just run the bolt down that holds the rocker, they dont use the poly locks.

http://www.ls1howto.com/howto/geniii/rockers/pics/030novalvecovers.jpg

I think it will be ok though it was the quitest the valvetrain has been ever (so far) as long as i owned the car.....

[BAD LS1]

My car sees 70 psi of oil psi when cold , like last night when i ran it , the lifters have to be seeing a good amount of pump up then one would assume. Its just been my experience that if a lifter has too much preload even at idle its noticable and will have result in a poor running engine with mis fireing and poping because the valves are hanging open. It might not become aparent tilli get it up in rpms but with how much i can push the rod into the lifter,after the preload was set shows to be more thean adequate room for expansion.

[95 TA - The Beast]

Originally posted by BADDLS1SS
My car sees 70 psi of oil psi when cold , like last night when i ran it , the lifters have to be seeing a good amount of pump up then one would assume. Its just been my experience that if a lifter has too much preload even at idle its noticable and will have result in a poor running engine with mis fireing and poping because the valves are hanging open. It might not become aparent tilli get it up in rpms but with how much i can push the rod into the lifter,after the preload was set shows to be more thean adequate room for expansion.

Umm, sorry but I disagree in principle with this set of comments in regards to hydraulic lifters...

Hydraulic lifters will work with as much as .250" preload on them as long as you don't bottom the hydraulic portion inside the lifter themselves...

The WHOLE function of a hydraulic lifter is to get rid of lash adjustments... The second function is to allow for less lift at lower oil pressures and more lift at higher oil pressures... There is documented proof that running up to 3 turns past zero lash on poly-lock adjusted rocker arms results in more high-RPM horsepower with less lower RPM horsepower vs 1 turn past zero lash that was the reverse, in that you had more HP down low and less gains up top compared to the 3 turns past zero lash...

In either case, as long as the hydraulic portion is not bottomed out in the lifter itself (in which case you will hang a valve open) the only thing you are affecting is the ability for the lifter itself to adjust the amount of lift based upon oil pressure... In other words with heavy pre-load the lifters can be adjsuted to act very close to a solid lifter... To do this you also have to take into consideration pushrod length and rocker-arm tip to valve-stem geometry... But it can and has been done...

The Comp Rs do not apply to the above statements as they have an anti-pump-up design and too much preload can ruin the lifter or cause it to collapse completely... Again one of the reasons they were pulled as they don't really act in the manner most hydraulics are well known to operate in...

But to get to too-much preload on a lifter you literally need like 2+ turns on some factory lifters and some aftermarkets (some cranes for example) can take over 3 turns past zero lash to achieve bottoming out of the hydraulic portion in the lifter itself... Again I have personally done all of this myself on many motors...

But if you do not bottom out the hydraulics, and if the lifters are operating properly they should not hang open a valve, that is simple mechanics... Too little lash and you get noise... Uneven lash and you can get a poor running condition because the valves are opening at different levels, thus the amount of airflow into/outof the motor as well as opening/closing events are uneven and you can get an uneven running condition...

[95 TA - The Beast]

Also I wanted to mention that the viscosity of the oil effects the pressure seen for a given volume, as in at idle, even if you are seeing 70psi because of it being cold, the oil itself is much thicker and does not flow as well, thus the increase of pressure at idle while cold...

Now hot oil at 70psi is flow a much much greater volume of oil as it is much thinner when hot and thus is supplying a greater volume of oil to the lifters and such...

a good example is see how much oil comes out of the back of the rocker arms at idle cold and at rpms hot to simulate the same pressure when cold and hot... You will see a much greater volume of oil squirting out of the backs of the rocker arms (which comes up throught the lifters and pushrods) than any sort of volume at idle while cold (which should be just about none for quite some time, at least until the oil warms a little and thins out)...

Point being that 70psi of pressure seen at the oil pump (almost all SBC engines, including the LSx measure oil pressure at the main oil galley, ie the one that feeds the mains/rods) and is not idicitive of the losses seen due to flow resistance at the lifters and camshaft... Thus the rule of thumb to allow the oil itself to come up to temp (around 260-280 degrees) before hammering on a motor... Some people allow thier coolant to come up to temp before hammering on thier cars, but it is the oil that allows for motor longevity...

[Knyghtmare]

:drool: LS1.......

[BAD LS1]

Well Put Dennis !!

Right now im just using coventional 10w30 because im going to change it after the first couple times i drive it anyhow. But after the engine brings up to temp the oil psi will typically hover around the 40 mark at idle and rise to 60 under throttle. The LS1 reads oil psi after it has made it through the cam bearings etc. its sensor posistion is not located in the middle of the main galley but at the end of the oils travel in the galley up near the cam.

As for the lifter thing... i ran the engine for about 30 min tonight got the cooling system all bled and the engine maintaining a steady temp, i brought the engine up and down in rpms by hand in the engine compartment and had my ear up the valve covers and intake and it honestley doesnt make anymore noise than it ever has. Nothing sounds obvious or anything, but damn does that compression jump make those tinny headers sound even more like some one tapping on a symbol at each exhaust port LOL

The LS1 naturally makes alot of mechanical noise though, its just the nature of the beast. Although Tim's car has about the LOUDEST valvetrain i ever heard in any LS1, it sounds like its got some lifter issues, or something, its harsh!! It aint right LOL. I now have a even more stiff valve train and its still 10 times quieter than Tim's LOL

So far so good though ill just run it and see if any problems manifest. Only one way to find out right?

[95 TA - The Beast]

BTW Tom, I just wanted to let you know that I do not mean to take a condencending tone or seem arrogant on technical matters... When I post on a public forum in response to a technical discussion, I kinda go into 'explain it in detail' mode...

I know you know most of this stuff and we can have a discussion on subjects in brief, it is just that I figure others without our experience will be reading and try to inform them as completely as possible...

Kinda gets rid of the 'half-known syndrome' so many enthusiasts have without the applied knowledge of doing things themselves... :thumbsup

Also, good deal on the engine warmup... It is always good to let things run-in so to speak and not find anything out of the ordinary... It's a good sign you have done things right... :)

[BAD LS1]

Dennis , thats not a problem!! i know where your coming from there. Yeah the car runs pretty good , throttle responce is nice and crisp, it smells like a refinery out the exhaust right now but ill fine tune that later.

Im certain the thing will be a slug below 3K even with the 6 speed and 4.30 gears LOL. I deffenitaly probably wont be able to knock it side ways with 1/4 throttle in 2nd @ 30 mph on demand any more though:( But im sure the b!tch is really gonna scream above 3K HEHEHE:devil 3rd and 4th already pulled harder than 1-2 i cant imagine what some more top end is gonna feel like?? Im presuming nothing like your car though thats is just scary on top end!! AHHAHAH i still cant foget my passenger that night clawing for the door and wouldnt open her eyes till i was on the brakes!! Thats one of those deals where the saying " wide open till you see God " would be appropriate:wow

[Knyghtmare]

LS1..... :drool:

:3gears:

[BAD LS1]

Tyler you like LS1's dont you?:goof

[Knyghtmare]

:D lol How'd you guess?

[jbiscuit]

LS1's come in the new Taurus right? the 24 valve V6?:durr

[BAD LS1]

Nope they have them in JDM WRX wagons though....

Dude you missed out !!!:goof

[jbiscuit]

missed out? More like dodged the bullet. I was gonna drive out to the west bend/slinger area and yank an LS1 to put in my wagon but then I heard those motors are only good to about 340hp before they grenade :durr

[BAD LS1]

Yeah mines gotta be hanging on by a thread then!!!:durr

We might be able to see 450 to the wheels yet.. that will make it damn close to 500 at the flywheel LOL

Yeah i was thinking of a putting a boxer engine in the back as "helper" engine to be the LS1's lil' buddy and help share the load.

Just like 97 Z me go's Avitar, that chick needs to take a few loads:goof That crack definately needs to be welded.

[jbiscuit]

ha ha ha ha, a helper engine, ha ha ha ha!!!!:rockwoot:

[BAD LS1]

Well to tell you the truth im more intrested in welding wonderbread girls crack than i am trying to add a helper engine LOL:hump2:

[jbiscuit]

I want to split "Jugs" in Scott's truck like a piece of wet pine....!? Is that cool?