hydrogen fuel dudes check in

[madmike]

OK two days ago was the first time I actually seen a Hydrogen fuel car that is up and running however, its a hybrid so the Hydrogen generator is supplementing after start and warm up, its on a 95 Civic, the local salvage yard is building it and asked me to help with tuning it-as the ECU is correcting AFR to Stoic (14.7) for gas and the Hydrogen runs different.
I have to go on my LC1 data and see what the AFR is for Hydrogen.

the good, Hydrogen is 130 octane!

Anyways I thought this was all just a hoax until I seent the myth busters run one, and Honda is releasing a Hydrogen cell car this year.

Anyone else messing with one of these or know of any?
Whould like to see whats going on out there as I have had blinders on thinking these were like electric turbo BS (ELECTRIC TURBO HE HE HE)

Mike

[WhatsADSM]

OK two days ago was the first time I actually seen a Hydrogen fuel car that is up and running however, its a hybrid so the Hydrogen generator is supplementing after start and warm up, its on a 95 Civic, the local salvage yard is building it and asked me to help with tuning it-as the ECU is correcting AFR to Stoic (14.7) for gas and the Hydrogen runs different.
I have to go on my LC1 data and see what the AFR is for Hydrogen.

the good, Hydrogen is 130 octane!

Anyways I thought this was all just a hoax until I seent the myth busters run one, and Honda is releasing a Hydrogen cell car this year.

Anyone else messing with one of these or know of any?
Whould like to see whats going on out there as I have had blinders on thinking these were like electric turbo BS (ELECTRIC TURBO HE HE HE)

Mike

Yea the theory I have heard is they use the excess current from the alternator (and sometimes solar panels) and through electrolysis separate the water into hydrogen and O2. Then use the hydrogen to supplement the gasoline in a hybrid burn form. It's an okay idea but the technology isn't very mature, and of course storing the hydrogen can be VERY dangerous.

Thats about as far as my knowledge goes, and I have not tried it myself. Keep us posted on how it works.

By the way I would assume the tuning could be a little work because you will need to measure the Lambda depending on what ratio of gas/hydrogen was injected and then rescale that output to the stock narrowband O2 input at the PCM.

Out of curiosity how are they injecting the hydrogen? What is controlling that?

EDIT: BTW I would *really* like to see on of those work tho, it really sounds like a bunch of B.S. to me. Simply because you don't get energy out of nowhere, so I am mostly curious to see how they are getting the hydrogen. Maybe if it is solar or wind powered, then stored in the car... maybe that would work.

[PonyKiller87]

Ok heres a question for you. In HS chem lab we did the experiment where you use car batteries to seperat the Hydrogen from the water in a small 10 gal fish tank. It seemed like it didn't produce that much hydrogen. To make this work wouldn't you need to make quite a bit, which would require you to carry alot of water ? Not trying to sound like an ass, I really am curious how this works.

[Prince Valiant]

I can't speak as to this civic you're referring too...

...BUT, isn't there a "kit" from some yahoo out there for this? I'm hoping this isn't it.

The short of it (if this is what what is we are referring too) does not work...basically, the energy needed to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen is roughly equivalent to what you'd get out of burning it...(actually, in the real world, it'd be greater). The amounts of hydrogen actually yielded from what's in the kit is TINY and essentially insignificant. The kits I speak of claim to bring cars up to 120mpg, SUV's getting 40-50mpg, or some nonsense.

That's not to say there aren't "hybrid" hydrogen cars...There certainly are burning hydrogen and gasoline...BMW is testing one out in California at this time.

[Karps TA]

The mythbusters show just proved you could run on Hydrogen, but they had to use a tank and run a hose to do it. The "kit" couldn't even come close to making the amount needed to run a car.

[ND4SPD]

Okay the number one misconception on "Hydrogen" vehicles is that they burn the hydrogen. WRONG. A hydrogen car uses a hydrogen fuel cell which when filled acts as a battery for an electric motor. So, in effect you have an electric car with a battery that you refill with hydrogen. The fuel cell works by stripping electrons out of the hydrogen atoms or something like that.

And what Valiant said about generating the hydrogen by electrolosys is true (or probably true) as if it required less energy, you would essentially be "creating" energy which would go against the laws of physics.

[GTSLOW]

It's being built by a salvage yard so its legit.

[ND4SPD]

It's being built by a salvage yard so its legit.

lol yeah, that's my idea of a legit project.:rolf

Seriously though, I'm not saying you can't run a conventional car on hydrogen. My point was that the ones being developed by the auto manufacturers are hydrogen fuel cell vehicles... which is not what 99% of the public thinks a "hydrogen car" is. Hell, I didn't even know any better until a few years ago when I was reading a Popular Mechanics article about it. I was all for a hydrogen "burning" car. But when I found out they were basically electrics I was like "well screw it".

[Prince Valiant]

Okay the number one misconception on "Hydrogen" vehicles is that they burn the hydrogen. WRONG. Actually, that's incorrect.

MOST use fuel cells...but cars such as the BMW actually DO burn hydrogen.


Dual-mode combustion engine for enhanced flexibility.

While cruising range is a significant consideration to consumers in any car, BMW recognizes that it is of critical importance in a hydrogen-powered vehicle, because there is not yet a full network of hydrogen filling stations in the United States.

For precisely this reason, the BMW Hydrogen 7 features dual-mode drive technology and a combustion engine capable of running on both hydrogen and gasoline. The cruising range in the hydrogen mode is more than 125 miles, with another 300 miles in the gasoline mode. Thus, the driver of a BMW Hydrogen 7 is able to use the vehicle without problem even when the nearest hydrogen filling station is far away.

The BMW Hydrogen 7 clearly proves that liquid hydrogen may by all means be used as a source of energy for the production car. By introducing the BMW Hydrogen 7, the BMW Group establishes powerful momentum for the ongoing development of a supply infrastructure serving above all to set up additional hydrogen filling stations providing sustained mobility on a broad basis also in the future.

Two tanks: Smooth transitions and maximum cruise range.

To offer the longest conceivable cruising range, the BMW Hydrogen 7 comes with both a conventional 74-litre (16.3 Imp gal) gasoline tank and an additional fuel tank taking up approximately 8 kilos or 17.6 lb of liquid hydrogen. Stored in a high tech tank, liquid hydrogen offers significant advantages in energy density enhancing the cruising range of the hydrogen car.

The driver is able to switch from hydrogen to gasoline mode manually by pressing a button on the multifunction steering wheel. Because engine power and torque remain exactly the same regardless of the mode of operation, switching from one mode to another has no effect on the driving behavior and performance of the BMW Hydrogen 7.

The control system in BMW Hydrogen 7 gives priority to the use of hydrogen. And, should one of the two types of fuel be fully consumed, the system will automatically switch over to the other type of fuel in the interest of secure, ongoing supply.

It burns and runs just fine...makes 260hp regardless of which fuel is being used at any given time. What's great about it is you could take this vehicle anywhere in the US, regardless if they have a hydrogen filling station or not...just run it on gas when need be.

[Karps TA]

The biggest issue with alternative fuels is infrastructure. E85 has been around for a couple years, yet very few pumps exist. Then look at the larger cities who are already landlocked, where would they put stations? It's not like gas stations are going to change overnight to these alt fuels, not with still 99.9% of the population still using dino juice. So even if the cars get built, where you going to refuel them?

[ND4SPD]

anyone know what the cost of hydrogen is per lb?

[PonyKiller87]

Call Airgas, they should be able to give you a price, its one of thier standard products.

Hydrogen (H2) - the lightest element, has a gaseous specific gravity of 0.0695 and a boiling point of –423°F (-252.8°C) at atmospheric pressure. It’s a colorless, odorless, tasteless, flammable gas found at concentrations of about 0.0001% in air. Hydrogen is produced by several methods, including steam/methane reforming, dissociation of ammonia, and recovery from by-product streams during chemical manufacturing and petroleum reforming. Hydrogen is stored and transported as either a gas or a cryogenic liquid.

Hydrogen is widely used in petroleum refining processes, such as hydrotreating, catalytic reforming and hydrocracking. It’s a raw material for many chemical processes ranging from manufacturing high-density polyethylene and polypropylene resins to the hydrogenation of food-grade oils. Hydrogen is also used as a reducing gas in metals processing operations. In the electronics industry, helium is used in manufacturing silicone wafers and computer chips. Rocket engine fuel is another major use for hydrogen.


http://www.airgas.com/content/products.aspx?id=9002015000000

[ND4SPD]

Called them and got redirected to a different location... then when I called the next location the person I needed to talk to was on vacation. Remember liquid hydrogen is cryogenic, so you don't just carry around jugs of the stuff. Filling or transfering a cryogenic liquid is kind of a big deal. It's not like transferring CNG or Propane, or gasoline. It requires special procedures that is probably going to make it so average Joe can't just roll up to the local Hydrogen Station and fill their car up. I'm still looking to see if I can find the cost.

[ND4SPD]

Okay, so from what I'm reading... you can go 125 miles on 17.6lbs (8kg) of liquid hydrogen. That means you get about 7 miles per lb and about 15 miles per kg. Hydrogen costs about $3.50/kg (via natural gas reformulation) and a whopping $6.50/kg via electrolosys) to make (so then add on some for profit, distribution, etc...). A study "thinks" that these *could* drop to $2.30 for the NG reformulation and $3.90 for electrolosys... though I'm not sure that would be the case. With cost of energy going up I highly doubt that the cost of manufacture is going to drop as much as they think. Anyway, so at 15 miles per kg, it's costing you... $.23per mile. Right now in my grand prix, I get about 27MPG combined. Premium gas at $4.20... $.15 /mile. Somehow hydrogen isn't looking like a very good idea to me.

This is where I got the costs for Liquid Hydrogen:

http://www.motortrend.com/features/consumer/112_0408_hydrogen_fuel_cells/cost.html


Hydrogen weighs about .567lbs per gallon. So to go that 125 miles you need...a 31 gallon tank. That's pretty damn big.