GM kills big SUV/Truck plants.

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

Gm to close 4 large truck & suv plants including the Janesville plant. Gm also plans to maybe sell/revamp the crap car line opps "hummer" car line.
GM has a big revolutionary breakthrough plan to start producing/marketing fuel efficent cars. :rolf

Stuck with tailfins in Detroit again, big surprise. :rolleyes:
Sad to see hardworking folks lose their jobs due to inept mgmn't, but it's happened a thousand times before. :punch:

[nismodave]

Oh man thats not good.

[07ROUSHSTG3]

sad to see the jobs lost, but this has to be done. it is about time. luckily for all those out of work folks they will have the UAW helping them through.

[juicedimpss]

Oh man thats not good.

its really not good at all.
janesville will be a ghost town.

[jbiscuit]

yep, not very good! Janesville is going to have taxes now close to mine in Stallis! I feel bad for all the families that are going to be affected by this. The Janesville plant has been open a LONG time!

[That_Guy]

in lordstown. they delayed production of the ss/tc cobalts to make room for the cobalt xfe...witch only gets 3 mpg better then a normal ls...the weak American dollar and the high gas prices are ******* everybody.

[LIZMO]

its really not good at all.
janesville will be a ghost town.

theres like 55K + people in that town. But GM is the heart and sole of that town. i can't image how bad that towns gonna get once GM closes.

[stenchmiester]

my stepdad retired from there thursday of last week due to this

[Prince Valiant]

It's not as dire as I'm reading here:

The cuts will affect 10,000 hourly and salaried workers. Many will be able to take openings created when 19,000 more U.S. hourly workers leave later this year through early retirement and buyout offers.

Most everyone affected will be able to continue working, albeit elsewhere.

Even if some decide to stick around, Janesville has other larger employers that may look to hire, plus madison is not terribly far away either.

To me, the surprising (but not really) thing is how drastically GM is making it's move toward smaller vehicles. It's one thing to bring out a few new models, but the revamping they are doing is tremedously expensive...and imo, represents a big gamble.

What's illuminating is that while I was critical of the CAFE standards going up due to how it'd affect auto manufactuer's, particularly here in the US who operate in vastly different market conditions, it's the market that actually is affecting the big 3 the most drastically and far quicker than CAFE could have.

Now, I'd argue that it's poor intervention by the gov't that caused the market to pinch the big 3 so hard, so I'm not letting them off for their role. Let's face it, it's the skyrocketting oil prices that is the root cause of this. Many lamment "the falling dollar" (that seems to be the new psuedo-catch-phrase this year), citing it's role in the price of oil; however, it also neglects that the dollar also devalues when the price of such critical goods such as oil goes up...right now, it's becoming a vicious cycle.

We are FINALLY going to see a couple refineries begin to open...but they won't come online till around 2010-2011 (however, it should be noted that as everytime a refinery has been proposed, it's meeting strong ressitance...they're will be one less in the state of Kansas, no thanks to their govenor). Hopefully, we can begin to get oil onto the world market's and also bring the price down to reasonable levels...

...Because if it doesn't, the big three is doomed. They won't be able to compete in the small car world, because they don't market tiny cars worldwide as other manufactuer's are more or less required to do. They'll neither be able to compete in the "I-don't-care-what-the price-of-gas-is" segment either (dominated by BMW/Mercedes types). They don't have the cash on hand to make such engineering investments...not even close.

[Cryptic]

Most everyone affected will be able to continue working, albeit elsewhere.


You use that word a lot... I dunno why it bothers me... maybe my limited vocabulary... :goof

[Prince Valiant]

You use that word a lot... I dunno why it bothers me... maybe my limited vocabulary... :goofMe use it alot because me no no other word to use :(

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

I always thought GM and Ford did build good small cars but just did not sell them in North America, I know I would sure be pleased with a Fiesta or Mondeo diesel with 50 or 60mpg.

Either way the era of small fuel effiecent cars is coming to NA in a fast way.

[pOrk]

Hard workers, haha. Thats like saying HD employees work hard. All they do is stand on the line and wait for the parts to come.

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

Hard workers, haha. Thats like saying HD employees work hard. All they do is stand on the line and wait for the parts to come.

I know, most these dumb effer's put the nail in their own coffin many years ago. But there are some hard workers there, they will be fine and the first to get new jobs, albeit half their previous package.

[That_Guy]

Hard workers, haha. Thats like saying HD employees work hard. All they do is stand on the line and wait for the parts to come.

on so many levels it true

[Reverend Cooper]

no one should be suprised by this,Janesville has been on the chopping block since i was a kid, i remember in the mid 80's they almost shut it down,then in the 90's when the strike almost shut it down.

[88Nightmare]

last I read they were just laying off some shifts, not closing the entire plant, but only time will tell. I'm still wondering when Delphi in Oak Creek will be 100% shut down. I know they knocked down part of the building, but there are still plenty of cars there during the day. Its only a matter of time.... I can only imagine what will go up in its place.... Delphi sits on a huge chunk of prime realty.

[GRAMPS SS]

i heard the plant would be closed in 1-1 1/2 years down the road....with that said...will that give most of the workers time to find jobs elsewhere ?????..that's a lot of jobs to cover...

am i wrong..or is the hummer built by someone else for GM.....i have been wrong before....

[Prince Valiant]

am i wrong..or is the hummer built by someone else for GM.....i have been wrong before....
Hummer is built under contract from GM by AM Hummer General in Indiana.

Virtually everyone is being offered either a job at another plant, early buy-out (140,000 cash, extension of medical benifits), and some older employee's are being offered early retirement (full pension/benifits). The only ones who'll have to look for jobs will be those who simply are young and for some reason stubornly refuse to leave Janesville.

[lordairgtar]

Yeah! Close janesville, but continue to build efficient cars in Arispe Mexico? C'mon GM, let's get it together here. Bring the HHR production from Mexico to Janesville. There is no reason to close ANY US plant except for corporate greed. As said earlier, the Hummer is built on contract for GM by AM General, the last vestige of American Motors Corporation. AM General was the heavy truck and bus builder for AMC with mostly military and municipal clients. Santa Barbara had these AMC buses when I lived there, very similar to the 60s era GM fishbowl design bus. SB also used small Mercedes Benz buses.

[Poncho]

All this to happen after Everything on GM's RWD Zeta platform got the axe so they could rush the new truck generation to us...... Figures.

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

I do not think GM CEO Rick was talking about killing military hummer production at all, I mean with trouble in the middle east at an all time high and war zone hummers being turned into shrapnel/scrap metal on a daily basis I am sure those sales are booming.
I think ole Rick was speaking of killing the extremely ridiculous caricature vehicles like the H2, H3 and whatever that whatever that hummer trucksuv's name is ? I say good riddance.

As far as GM and the US workforce, who can blame them for going to Mexico ? GM is in the fight of their live and the American union has been sucker punching GM for years, beside the Silao Mexico truck plant quality is better than the most of its American counterparts, and they pay those folks less than half what Americans get to build the same crap.

My .02

[Karps TA]

As far as GM and the US workforce, who can blame them for going to Mexico ? GM is in the fight of their live and the American union has been sucker punching GM for years, beside the Silao Mexico truck plant quality is better than the most of its American counterparts, and they pay those folks less than half what Americans get to build the same crap.

My .02

I agree, I don't think GM should be completely to blame. The unions have bent over the US automakers for years. They had very little concern for the future of the company with all their timely strikes over the years. Boneheaded decisions and greed are rampant on both sides.

[pOrk]

Unions are a joke. In this day and age, a GOOD UNION is NOT possible because of all the lazy pricks that think the government should wait on you hand and foot.

Am General isn't going anywhere anytime soon, they just ordered 140,000 Humvee door frames and roof mounted turret tracks. That's over 5 years of production for the plant I work for considering you can only make 40 door frames per 12 hour shift when the robot is running smooothly :)

[jbiscuit]

They aren't shipping AS many Humvees overseas as you guys might think though anymore. International is making a new truck for the front called the Maxx:

http://www.mainpump.com/image/2007/06/04/international.jpg

[OxmanWI]

Either way the era of small fuel effiecent cars is coming to NA in a fast way.

The weird thing is, down the road instead of asking, "How much power you putting at the wheels?" Everyones going to be asking, "What kind of gas mileage are you getting?"

[Waver]

Unfortunatly, this is what has to happen to keep one of this countries biggest companies in business. All is not lost for the employees, though. Along with what was said above, I believe that the plant that was making neons and pt cruisers is still up and running, there are a lot of factory jobs with in 20 min of janesville, like Nestlie/Purina, Tyson (I think the strike is over), Stoughton trailer, and, as much as I hate to say it, Generac.

In response to pork, You dont think that being on an assembly line is hard work? Have you ever worked on one? If you are slow at your job the whole line stops, you have to be very fast at what you do, and you have to be able to do many different stations equily well....trust me it is not easy. When I worked at generac, I was a tester/repairer for the home stand by generators (the large ones), assembeler for the home stand by/rv/protable generators, a boxer for both lines, as well as in shipping and receiving (I got my forklift license).

the Biggest problem with working in factories (as well as many other jobs) is the politics....advancements are not done by merit, but by who you know/are friends with. As a result, the good employees who would make exellent management dont get moved up, and the jackasses who have no clue run good companies into the ground.

The other problem is this. The government is trying to get people to buy low emissions vehicles, ie electric/hybrid cars and trucks. However the funny thing is that if you look at it, electric vehicles are bigger polluters than your typical gas powered vehicle. think about it....electric powerplants that are coal/deisel burning put out at least 5 times the soot, ash, nox, ect than a car does in an hour...........so to power up your toyota prius you are actually polluting 5 times more than the driver of that Hummer.......

Last thing. There is an easy way to solve all of this....Higher gas prices are frocing people to turn to smaller, more gas efficient cars. Inturn, the prices of a lot of things are going up, and the economy sucks ass....easy way to fix it would be a cost of living increase, since the cost of living and goods are going up. Once that happens, the car and truck market will go back to normal, the housing market will be stable, the country wont be in a recession and all will be good.....Makes sence dosnt it? however this wont happen since most billion dollar companies really dont care about the workers, and only give the CEOs huge increases and bonuses.........

[wrath]

Hummer is built under contract from GM by AM Hummer General in Indiana.

Virtually everyone is being offered either a job at another plant, early buy-out (140,000 cash, extension of medical benifits), and some older employee's are being offered early retirement (full pension/benifits). The only ones who'll have to look for jobs will be those who simply are young and for some reason stubornly refuse to leave Janesville.

There aren't many "other jobs". How many GM plants do you think there are left? Flint, MI used to have 130,000 blue collar jobs. There aren't even that many blue collar jobs left at GM. My Dad works for GM and has 29 years in. He's low seniority at the plant that makes the Acadia/Enclave/Outlook. He was laid off for 5 months this year. Due to all the closures people as far away as south Detroit are driving to Lansing (2 hours) to go to work. My Dad lives 1 hour from work at spends $550/month in fuel getting to work in a vehicle that gets 24mpg. He just went back to work this week.

My Dad makes the same amount of money as every other GM employee his age, about $27/hour. He takes home around 62% of that.

When you're old, do you want to be making the equivalent of $27/hour for doing DIFFICULT manual labor? 30 years of assembling cars wears your body out. The only reason why people are still assembling cars is because they can't get a robot to move that way. My Dad's rotator cup is shot. When I was a little kid my Dad used to assemble seats (Lear bought this place decades ago). He used to wrap his fingers in tape so they didn't bleed. It's the same thing as Construction jIndustry jobs. How many people do you see in their 40s still doing manual labor? 50s? New employees start at $14/hour. About the same as a Construction Industry manual labor job. I don't see many non-hispanic people working construction. It's hard work.


I'm from mid-Michigan. The auto industry has been falling apart as long as I've been alive. Many of my relatives worked in GM in various functions from blue collar, to supervisor/foreman, to white collar, to engineering. GM's big and GM has very good plans but GM is slow. Just like every other large company.


When a high-dollar (relative) manufacturing job disappears it impacts seven (7) other jobs. People don't stop at 7-Eleven to get coffee. They don't go to McDonalds on the way home from work. They don't stop at the local barf and puke at lunch. They don't buy a new ATV/dirtbike/motorcyle/jetski/boat to go up north on the weekends. They don't go up north on the weekends. They don't buy vacation property. They don't donate to the local Ducks Unlimited. They don't get rid of their excess at the local Goodwill. They don't go to "convenience" things like Fast Eddie's Oil Change. They certainly don't buy new furniture or electronics. And I'm not even including suppliers for these plants or the trucking companies.


These people don't find other jobs. No one wants to hire a 50 year old GM employee when they can get some 20 year old kid to do it. My Dad was looking to take the early retirement but NO ONE would hire him. He's ISO 9001 certified, has CDL and forklift, and was only looking for $10/hr. GM Retirement at 30 years is $3,000/month gross. That's not a lot of money if you want any kind of quality of life, assuming you had children so you had to pay for some of their college and you still owe on your house.


The buyout ended a couple weeks ago. If you think Milwaukee is bad, go to Flint, Saginaw, and Detroit. They've all been vacated by manufacturing of all types. You don't dare drive through parts of Flint with your windows rolled down no matter who you are unless you belong there.

[Prince Valiant]

There aren't many "other jobs". When climbing on your soap box, it's best not to start off with a blatantly WRONG statement dude.

AS reported by Yahoonews and the AP, GM expects most whom are laid off at the closing plants to take jobs that are becoming open when 19,000 employee's take retirement/early buyout's this year

19,000 is greater than 10,000 (by 9,000, in case you couldn't do the math...given your background, this seems to be a fair assessment) so beside all whom will be affected by these plant closing, GM will still have posistions to fill by other laid-off workers and posisbly new hires even. It was stated by a GM spokesperson that virtually anyone affected by the plant closing will be able a) to continue to work at a different location, b) Take a buyout of 140,000 dollars and extension of medical benifits or c) If they are within X number of years to retirement, take full retirement benifits at plant closing.


Blah blah blah...people who loose jobs dont find jobs blah blah blah... Sure, whatever :rolleyes:



As an aside, I love when I read that the closings were due to "corporate greed" (what a great looney buzzword). I mean...it's greed that produces a desire to loose only 36,000,000,000 instead of losing 37,000,000,000 as they did in 2007.

Oh, I've got a GREAT idea! We are SO mad at the "BIG OIL" ( :mad: ) companies that made SUPER-DUPER-WINDFALL profits of 40,000,000,000 last year, we should give it to GM....we could give them 38 billion dollars so they've made a reasonable profit of 1 billion dollars, and the oil companies would have profited a nearly obscene 2 billion dollars. That's it! I've solved the economic crisis!

[wrath]

When climbing on your soap box, it's best not to start off with a blatantly WRONG statement dude.

What are these "Other jobs" you're speaking of? I'm talking ones that make at least $15/hr that has benefits. How many of those do you see on Monster.com? That require little or no education? That will hire someone 48+ years old? How about even $12/hr with no benefits?

Since Wisconsin is pathetic in many ways (high taxes, no infrastructure, lowest possible minimum wage) these people can't afford to take jobs that cause a serious pay loss. If you retire from GM with 30-34.99999 years you get $3,050 gross per month. These people currently make $4500/month gross without overtime. Say their current job costs them $500/month in fuel to commute and the new one is at the local Culver's. They only have to make $1400 now. It's hard to make $1400 at under $7/hr and they sure as hell won't give you 40hrs/week.


AS reported by Yahoonews and the AP, GM expects most whom are laid off at the closing plants to take jobs that are becoming open when 19,000 employee's take retirement/early buyout's this year

Of those 19,000 employees that you stated probably 18,000 were already laid off in Michigan and other states. Those that would've gotten to go back to work probably wouldn't have been able to go back to their "local" plant and at $4/gal a 60+ mile commute is brutal on the pocketbook. What are you going to do, move? Put your house on the market just like everybody else that no longer has a job in the area, move, and pay two mortgages? Where the fsck are people that work at the Janesville plant going to go to work at? The "other" GM plant in Janesville? Grand Rapids, Michigan is a short commute.


19,000 is greater than 10,000 (by 9,000, in case you couldn't do the math...given your background, this seems to be a fair assessment) so beside all whom will be affected by these plant closing, GM will still have posistions to fill by other laid-off workers and posisbly new hires even. It was stated by a GM spokesperson that virtually anyone affected by the plant closing will be able a) to continue to work at a different location, b) Take a buyout of 140,000 dollars and extension of medical benifits or c) If they are within X number of years to retirement, take full retirement benifits at plant closing.
Sure, whatever :rolleyes:


Don't insult my intelligence involving mathematics if you can't even fscking spell.

The $140,000 buyout severs you from GM. $140,000 is peanuts. That's 46 months of wages at $3,000/month. If you're planning on dying in the next 4 years it's a great deal.

28 years gets you $2800. $250 difference. People are continuing to work because they can't afford to retire in today's economy, especially since those that are working are probably supporting more people than just their spouses and children these days.




As an aside, I love when I read that the closings were due to "corporate greed" (what a great looney buzzword). I mean...it's greed that produces a desire to loose only 36,000,000,000 instead of losing 37,000,000,000 as they did in 2007.

Oh, I've got a GREAT idea! We are SO mad at the "BIG OIL" ( :mad: ) companies that made SUPER-DUPER-WINDFALL profits of 40,000,000,000 last year, we should give it to GM....we could give them 38 billion dollars so they've made a reasonable profit of 1 billion dollars, and the oil companies would have profited a nearly obscene 2 billion dollars. That's it! I've solved the economic crisis!

Greed, or lining your own pockets with more money at the expense of someone else's money or labors, is the American Way(TM) these days. I work at a company that went from individually-negotiated at-will employees to a pay scheme that basically works like this: The company buys data from another company that says what the market is willing to pay for a certain skill set. They did this to "save money". The result has been a mass-exodus of employees because due to "market wages" many employees won't get a raise for years while they wait for the "market to catch up" to what they're currently being paid. This causes a giant brain-drain, excessive costs in training the new person, and lost productivity. It's always "cheaper" in the long run to lure someone along than it is to "let go, hire, and train" the next person.

[Waver]

hey, a job is a job.........and as long as you have some income comming in that 140k will go a long way

[wrath]

hey, a job is a job.........and as long as you have some income comming in that 140k will go a long way

Say you have a $750/month mortgage and pay a "measely" $250/month in property taxes. That consumes more than you make at $7/hr at 160hrs/month.

That $140k will go roughly 4 years assuming you want any quality of life and don't have more than one car payment, and no other outstanding debt.

I know I couldn't take a 33% pay cut at all. I also know that of that $7/hr you'll spend $3 of it in taxes and commuting costs.

You'd have to be fawkin' retarded to take the $140k, or have a terminal disease.


Can anyone on this forum support two people, a house, and one low car payment on $3,000/month gross?

[xxsn0blindxx]

Don't insult my intelligence involving mathematics if you can't even fscking spell.

:rolf



Greed, or lining your own pockets with more money at the expense of someone else's money or labors, is the American Way(TM) these days. I work at a company that went from individually-negotiated at-will employees to a pay scheme that basically works like this: The company buys data from another company that says what the market is willing to pay for a certain skill set. They did this to "save money". The result has been a mass-exodus of employees because due to "market wages" many employees won't get a raise for years while they wait for the "market to catch up" to what they're currently being paid. This causes a giant brain-drain, excessive costs in training the new person, and lost productivity. It's always "cheaper" in the long run to lure someone along than it is to "let go, hire, and train" the next person.

Paying people what their skills are worth, what a ridiculous concept. I love how some people think companies are just supposed to keep shoveling them more money than their work is worth. Give me a break, a fair market wage is just that FAIR. Just as it wouldn't be fair for a company to pay an employee less than than what their work is worth, it also isn't fair to expect them to pay more than what it is worth. The company I work for did the same thing for our production group last year and realized they were underpaying compared to the rest of the market and gave them all a $2/hr raise. It's not meant to screw the worker. If your wage is inflated beyond what the work is worth and the market reflects it then it sucks, but it's the truth.

[Karps TA]

:rolf



Paying people what their skills are worth, what a ridiculous concept. I love how some people think companies are just supposed to keep shoveling them more money than their work is worth. Give me a break, a fair market wage is just that FAIR. Just as it wouldn't be fair for a company to pay an employee less than than what their work is worth, it also isn't fair to expect them to pay more than what it is worth. The company I work for did the same thing for our production group last year and realized they were underpaying compared to the rest of the market and gave them all a $2/hr raise. It's not meant to screw the worker. If your wage is inflated beyond what the work is worth and the market reflects it then it sucks, but it's the truth.


I agree with you completely. However that needs to work for CEO's and upper management as well. This growth rate for CEO's compared to employees in this country has gotten out of control. No matter how brilliant a CEO is he's not making jack without his employees. However if a CEO is making terrible decisions, regardless how hard the employees work, they suffer. Yet the CEO will still get his contracted bonuses and raises.

[Waver]

Say you have a $750/month mortgage and pay a "measely" $250/month in property taxes. That consumes more than you make at $7/hr at 160hrs/month.

That $140k will go roughly 4 years assuming you want any quality of life and don't have more than one car payment, and no other outstanding debt.

I know I couldn't take a 33% pay cut at all. I also know that of that $7/hr you'll spend $3 of it in taxes and commuting costs.

You'd have to be fawkin' retarded to take the $140k, or have a terminal disease.


Can anyone on this forum support two people, a house, and one low car payment on $3,000/month gross? However dont most families have dual incomes anyways? That being said, with the dual income you could live off of that. If there is not a dual income (ie someone cannot work or there are kids involved) then there is more of a reason to find a job. When I was at Generac (less than 20 min away from Janesville) they were constantly hiring people, and I started off at 8.92 an hour, with full benifits (well what Generac calls benifits) however I got paid every week and got 40+ hours every week. There was even a point that my girlfriend at the time that I was living with was not able to work due to a car accident, and we had a dog, however we were able to live off of that till she was able to work. That is far less than what gm was offering, and we had a car payment (300), insurance on 4 vehicles (400), rent of 400 a month, utilities (65), cable (110)gas, ect to worry about. You learn to make due.....

[xxsn0blindxx]

I agree with you completely. However that needs to work for CEO's and upper management as well. This growth rate for CEO's compared to employees in this country has gotten out of control. No matter how brilliant a CEO is he's not making jack without his employees. However if a CEO is making terrible decisions, regardless how hard the employees work, they suffer. Yet the CEO will still get his contracted bonuses and raises.

I couldn't agree with you more. However a lot of CEOs with big dollar salaries and bonuses come into a company with good track records from previous companies. A CEO that makes bad decisions won't last long however it takes a lot longer for it to be seen if their decisions are effective or not, particularly when they are brought into a failing company to turn it around. It takes months for somebody in that kind of position to become familiar with a company and it's market before they can even begin to make changes and then it takes several business cycles to see if those changes produce positive results. It's not like a labor position where you either did the job right or you didn't sometimes even the right decisions at the time fail due to unforeseen changes. The best CEOs are able to predict or mitigate the risk in those changes.

[Karps TA]

Yeah but if a CEO fails he gets a lucrative buyout. Take NArdelli at Home Depot for instance. He was a gigantic failure. And they rewarded him by giving him like $250mil to leave the company.

Most the screws ups I work with seem to get promoted. They show early that they're upper management material.

[wrath]

:rolf

Paying people what their skills are worth, what a ridiculous concept. I love how some people think companies are just supposed to keep shoveling them more money than their work is worth. Give me a break, a fair market wage is just that FAIR. Just as it wouldn't be fair for a company to pay an employee less than than what their work is worth, it also isn't fair to expect them to pay more than what it is worth. The company I work for did the same thing for our production group last year and realized they were underpaying compared to the rest of the market and gave them all a $2/hr raise. It's not meant to screw the worker. If your wage is inflated beyond what the work is worth and the market reflects it then it sucks, but it's the truth.


If you have people quitting, especially in an economy like this, that means someone else is willing to pay them more. So, to me, that means that "market value" isn't all that accurate.

I think the whole idea of "market based" wages is a crock of poo. If you don't want to pay too much then that's fine. But if someone else is willing to pay more then that means chances are you aren't paying enough. Most people won't switch jobs for less than a 20% increase in pay. It's in the best interest of employers to pay the least they have to in order to keep someone in their job. However, they tend to think that they should pay the lowest they can to get a qualified person in that chair and then train them. Training someone new = lost productivity. It's cheaper to continue training of a current employee than bring in a new one at the same wage as the current one.


Of course, none of this applies to executives.

[Prince Valiant]

What are these "Other jobs" you're speaking of? Well, I'm assuming they are the ones offered to those who apparently have reading skills.

Let's walk you through this:

The cuts will affect 10,000 hourly and salaried workers. Many will be able to take openings created when 19,000 more U.S. hourly workers leave later this year through early retirement and buyout offers. Now...I beg forgiveness for my obvious stupidity; I THINK that the article said that MANY of the 10,000 workers will be able to take openings that will need to be FILLED when 19,000 OTHER employee's [/i]ELSEWHERE[/i] leave those positions (hard to run a line without workers at them, eh?) due to THOSE 19,000 WHOM TOOK BUYOUT OFFERS/RETIREMENT EARLIER actually do leave.

My thick skull and bushy eyebrow's might make reading difficult...but generally IF I read it right, I somehow comprehend it (miracle I guess :confused).



Of those 19,000 employees that you stated probably 18,000 were already laid off in Michigan and other states. Um, I'll just attribute the ignorance to non-comprehension of the earlier post.


Don't insult my intelligence involving mathematics if you can't even fscking spell.Ho boy, am I ever trembling from the wrath of the spelling police.

Oh, wait, I get it! Your screen name! WOW! Let me guess...that's a pun!


The $140,000 buyout severs you from GM. $140,000 is peanuts. That's 46 months of wages at $3,000/month. If you're planning on dying in the next 4 years it's a great deal.If my company offered me 140,000 to leave, I'd take it in a heartbeat. Faster than a heartbeat. Hell, why don't YOU give me those peanuts, I'll leave my job. Seriously. Whip out that 140G...it's only "peanuts" dude.

Hell, most places close down and that's the last check you get.

28 years gets you $2800. $250 difference. People are continuing to work because they can't afford to retire in today's economy, especially since those that are working are probably supporting more people than just their spouses and children these days.What funny is that your lack of reading skillz continually let's you make wrong statements without flinching.

"Early retirement with full benefits" means they retire early as if they had put in the full time. IE, they get what they would have gotten IF they made it to full pension.

Another thing you seem to ramble on about is how little they get...now, it might seem strange to you, but golly gee! Maybe most saved for retirement as well...maybe some are sitting on considerable money. I know with fairly good probability that I'll be sitting on some decent money then.


Greed, or lining your own pockets with more money at the expense of someone else's money or labors, is the American Way(TM) these days.WTF are you saying dude? People make investments to make money? I get a good cut of steak not because the butcher's just a good guy, but because he wants to make [i]money? You know, and those poor laborer's....they have to work(!) for money! And their work generally comes to benefit someone (or a bunch of people) who made the investments, took the risk (most businesses don't pan out), and heck, created the job that that poor laborer is forced to do :(

Has America lost it's way? :rolleyes:

[Karps TA]

So are these 10,000 jobs opening by GM actually in Janesville? Or do these people have to move? And if so is GM willing to buy their houses that they likely won't be able to sell seeing as a major place of employment won't exist there anymore?

Or does that whole arguement not count? It's probably the employees faults they bought instead of rented.

You really need to drive thru a city once that had a large auto plant close down, like Flint to really understand the impact that makes. Think of all the restaurants and taverns that catered to the lunch crowds of those plants. Do those people get to move to the new jobs in other states as well? Once all these people leave for these other jobs it becomes a domino effect.

I'm guessing the 140K is taxed pretty nicely as well. And if added onto their original salary that year, I bet that moves them into one pricey tax bracket. Not that it ain't better then a sharp stick in the eye. It is nice to know though that even if you lose your job, the govt get's to benefit from it.

[wrath]

Well, I'm assuming they are the ones offered to those who apparently have reading skills.

Woohoo, this sure does beat writing documentation.



Let's walk you through this:
Now...I beg forgiveness for my obvious stupidity; I THINK that the article said that MANY of the 10,000 workers will be able to take openings that will need to be FILLED when 19,000 OTHER employee's [/i]ELSEWHERE[/i] leave those positions (hard to run a line without workers at them, eh?) due to THOSE 19,000 WHOM TOOK BUYOUT OFFERS/RETIREMENT EARLIER actually do leave.

BUT WHERE ARE THOSE 19,000 other jobs? MANY OF THOSE 19,000 WORKERS TOOK EARLY RETIREMENT BECAUSE THEY WERE LAID OFF and if they did happen to get to go back to work they'd probably end up working in some city far away.

In case of my Dad's plant, many people took early retirement because of the commute. Many of those people were commuting from Detroit to Lansing.

For one last time, for the dolts out there, those 19,000 people that retired WERE NOT ALL WORKING WHEN THEY RETIRED.


If my company offered me 140,000 to leave, I'd take it in a heartbeat. Faster than a heartbeat. Hell, why don't YOU give me those peanuts, I'll leave my job. Seriously. Whip out that 140G...it's only "peanuts" dude.

How old are you, what are your skills, and how much do you make? Are you 50, worked as an assembly worker your entire life, and are physically worn out? How many people do you know 50+ years old that are blue collar that find decent jobs?

$140,000/$3000 = ~46 months. Or get $3,000 until you die. $3000/month * 240 months (assuming you live for 20 years after retirement) = $720,000.


"Early retirement with full benefits" means they retire early as if they had put in the full time. IE, they get what they would have gotten IF they made it to full pension.

Very few people are qualified to get "full benefits" when they retire early. Most get reduced benefits until they reach the time at which they would have gotten full benefits. Then they get full benefits. And these people don't get the money. My Dad has 29 years in. If he was eligible for the $35,000 he'd been out the door. When those four plants close I'd be surprised if they got anything "lucrative" out of it.


Another thing you seem to ramble on about is how little they get...now, it might seem strange to you, but golly gee! Maybe most saved for retirement as well...maybe some are sitting on considerable money. I know with fairly good probability that I'll be sitting on some decent money then.

Nearly none of them saved for retirement, same boat ANYONE who happened to work for a place that had a pension plan and has been working for 20+ years. People my age never had the opportunity to have a pension; 401k and if you're lucky a match of 4% and fully vested first day you start. However, most places match 3%, only have traditional 401k, and you're not fully vested until 3+ years.

[jbiscuit]

.......and with the domino affect you get a failing community with a surplus of homes for sale, a surplus of people out of work and an employment ghost town. I agree with everything said about the effects a major plant shutdown has on both a community, people, the local economy etc. The greater detroit area is a wasteland littered with HUGE vacant factories and has become a raging crime area. Its sad.

[xxsn0blindxx]

.......and with the domino affect you get a failing community with a surplus of homes for sale, a surplus of people out of work and an employment ghost town. I agree with everything said about the effects a major plant shutdown has on both a community, people, the local economy etc. The greater detroit area is a wasteland littered with HUGE vacant factories and has become a raging crime area. Its sad.

I know look at what a crime-ridden ghost town Kenosha turned into after Chrysler shut down their plant.

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

I know look at what a crime-ridden ghost town Kenosha turned into after Chrysler shut down their plant.

Yea LoL :rolf

And Detroit/SE MI's problems began LONG before American auto companies began their long slow decline and started closing plants.

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

I also think it would be great if GM cut their overcapacity by 50%, it would make their vehicles have a higher resale and more value.
The big 2.5 have been building overcapacity for decades and it has always hurt their value.

[Prince Valiant]

BUT WHERE ARE THOSE 19,000 other jobs? MANY OF THOSE 19,000 WORKERS TOOK EARLY RETIREMENT BECAUSE THEY WERE LAID OFF and if they did happen to get to go back to work they'd probably end up working in some city far away.Okay...I was going to type something really mean. Sorry. I'll just stick to condescension.

Okay, so YOU don't know where the jobs are. Fine. It's not up to YOU to find them the jobs. So don't stress out.

This is what GM is reporting. The jobs are due to open, hence the whole "when 19,000more U.S. hourly workers leave later this year through early retirement and buyout offers."

My GUESS based on what is reported is that these 19,000 jobs, will come from when 19,000 hourly workers leave later this year because they accepted early retirement and buyout offers"

The boldface should help you understand where the 19,000 jobs are coming from. I hope....no, I mean I pray.

I did have to include your bawling about working in a city "far away", just because I really do disagree that it's somehow the companies duty to keep your commute short, or ensure that you never have to move. Bizarre notions that kids of union employee's have, I guess. (companies HAVE to lose money to support employee's, they HAVE to keep their jobs close so they don't ever have to move...no matter the cost!)


For one last time, for the dolts out there, those 19,000 people that retired WERE NOT ALL WORKING WHEN THEY RETIRED. And since repetition might help it stick, these 19,000 that the report is talking about, and the one you are talking about, are two completely different things. These are 19,000 that haven't left yet, and per the report, will create vacancies for others to fill.

If you don't get it, it's okay. Nobody's grading you.

Remember, the point of the buyouts weren't to eliminate positions, but to get rid of high cost employee's so they could bring in cheaper ones. You complain that your dad only made 27.xx/hour, which btw, is on par with what I make [and I fund my own healthcare more than union employee's do, fund my own retirement, so much for college education], however, you neglect the cost to the company due to current benefits,pension deals, future medical benefits, etc those employee's actually cost GM 3X that much per hour, IE, $81+/hour. Man, it made great business sense to pay them to go away or retire early.


How old are you, what are your skills, and how much do you make? Are you 50, worked as an assembly worker your entire life, and are physically worn out? How many people do you know 50+ years old that are blue collar that find decent jobs?Wait? There's a downside to having few skills other than manufacturing?

$140,000/$3000 = ~46 months. Yes, because again we MUST assume no one ever gets another job after they leave. Especially within 4 years.

Of course

Very few people are qualified to get "full benefits" when they retire earlyIf you were within 5 years, you got full benefits.

Most get reduced benefits until they reach the time at which they would have gotten full benefits. Then they get full benefits. OMG! WHAT A HORRIBLE DEAL!!!


Nearly none of them saved for retirement, same boat ANYONE who happened to work for a place that had a pension plan and has been working for 20+ years. Don't forget social secscrewity!


People my age never had the opportunity to have a pension; 401k and if you're lucky a match of 4% and fully vested first day you start. However, most places match 3%, only have traditional 401k, and you're not fully vested until 3+ years.Most places only give you an extra 3% of your salary for saving in their 401K? And then expect you to keep your money their for at least 3-5 years? Oh the humanity! And what it had to do with your post, I'm not sure :confused

[Rocket Power]

Since Wisconsin is pathetic in many ways (high taxes, no infrastructure, lowest possible minimum wage) these people can't afford to take jobs that cause a serious pay loss. If you retire from GM with 30-34.99999 years you get $3,050 gross per month. These people currently make $4500/month gross without overtime. Say their current job costs them $500/month in fuel to commute and the new one is at the local Culver's. They only have to make $1400 now. It's hard to make $1400 at under $7/hr and they sure as hell won't give you 40hrs/week.


Of those 19,000 employees that you stated probably 18,000 were already laid off in Michigan and other states. Those that would've gotten to go back to work probably wouldn't have been able to go back to their "local" plant and at $4/gal a 60+ mile commute is brutal on the pocketbook.



Lowest possible minimum wage? How much do you want it to be? It's a minimum, and if your work for minimum wage you need to find your self SOME kind of skills, I didn't even work for minimum wage when I was in High School.

What are you going to do, move? Put your house on the market just like everybody else that no longer has a job in the area, move, and pay two mortgages? Where the fsck are people that work at the Janesville plant going to go to work at? The "other" GM plant in Janesville? Grand Rapids, Michigan is a short commute.
Oh no a 60 mile commute, cry me a river . I have been doing 70-80 a day for the last 7 years for a lot less than $20+/hr
I'll take some of that 140,000 peanuts and add it to whatever income I make at my new job, because I wouldn't sit around for 4 years crying about my measly $140,000.

[wrath]

This is what GM is reporting. The jobs are due to open, hence the whole "when 19,000more U.S. hourly workers leave later this year through early retirement and buyout offers."

My GUESS based on what is reported is that these 19,000 jobs, will come from when 19,000 hourly workers leave later this year because they accepted early retirement and buyout offers"


The boldface should help you understand where the 19,000 jobs are coming from. I hope....no, I mean I pray.

Those 19,000 are the same 19,000. GM isn't have 38,000 people retire this year. That'd be more than 40% of its union workforce. Those that signed the dotted line last month are slowly retiring, they didn't magically never have to go back to work again. Many of those 19,000 people were LAID OFF. GM isn't going to hire "younger, cheaper workers" to lay off.


I did have to include your bawling about working in a city "far away", just because I really do disagree that it's somehow the companies duty to keep your commute short, or ensure that you never have to move. Bizarre notions that kids of union employee's have, I guess. (companies HAVE to lose money to support employee's, they HAVE to keep their jobs close so they don't ever have to move...no matter the cost!)

Say 5,000 people magically have no jobs in a city of say, 80,000. That's 6.25% of the workforce that were well into the middle class that are now going to be looking for jobs. And not $6.50/hr jobs. In today's economy.

I don't think many of you have seen how devastating it is when a large employer leaves. It has a cascade effect. It's not like it's 6% of highschool kid jobs. It's real jobs.

I don't think companies have to stay anywhere or do anything of what you're saying. I moved 370 miles. I have 25 years of work ahead of me. Many people that are losing their jobs don't have that luxury. They don't have the luxury of people treating them equally because most of them are over 50.



And since repetition might help it stick, these 19,000 that the report is talking about, and the one you are talking about, are two completely different things. These are 19,000 that haven't left yet, and per the report, will create vacancies for others to fill.

If you don't get it, it's okay. Nobody's grading you.

It's the same fscking 19,000. There are 19,000 people that were already retiring or took the incentive that expired last month.



Remember, the point of the buyouts weren't to eliminate positions, but to get rid of high cost employee's so they could bring in cheaper ones. You complain that your dad only made 27.xx/hour, which btw, is on par with what I make [and I fund my own healthcare more than union employee's do, fund my own retirement, so much for college education], however, you neglect the cost to the company due to current benefits,pension deals, future medical benefits, etc those employee's actually cost GM 3X that much per hour, IE, $81+/hour. Man, it made great business sense to pay them to go away or retire early.

Yes, they need to get rid of older employees. The problem is that you seem to think they're going to hire 19,000 younger pissants like you at $14/hr. They aren't. They might hire a few in places where they can't get currently laid off employees to relocate to where they need them. And then over the next two years they're closing 10,000 workers worth of plants. I don't think they're going to have a labor shortage.

I have news for you, you cost your company close to three times what they're paying for you assuming you have some employee medical benefits (if not, you'd be plunking down $650/month for just you for decent benefits not the $30/week you're probably paying). 1/3 goes to you, 1/3 goes to workman's comp/taxes/overhead, 1/3 goes to fringe. GM's problem is retiree healthcare. Since they've successfully unloaded all retirees onto UAW-managed healthcare it's in their best interest to get rid of people to retirement.



Wait? There's a downside to having few skills other than manufacturing?
Yes, because again we MUST assume no one ever gets another job after they leave. Especially within 4 years.

How many people do you know over 50 that got retrained and are working at a new place doing something different?




Don't forget social secscrewity!

Most places only give you an extra 3% of your salary for saving in their 401K? And then expect you to keep your money their for at least 3-5 years? Oh the humanity! And what it had to do with your post, I'm not sure :confused

Social Security is a joke. By the time you and I retire it might buy a can of tuna fish each month. It's not reliable, it's expensive, and you likely won't ever see what you put in. Social Security is picking up where pensions left off. You can thank all those companies that don't have pensions or retirement plans for socializing the cost of the elderly onto the young.

Are you on track for having ten (10) times your annual gross earnings stuffed away in a 401k by age 30? That's the bare minimum you'll need to retire by Social inSecurity age. If my math is right, if you started at age 25 you'd have to be putting away at least 19%.

That 3% costs companies almost nothing. They're using the long vesting period to further fleece you. If a company isn't matching at least 3% and are fully vested at the first day you should re-negotiate. It's clear they don't care about your future.