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View Full Version : Let's talk E85



badass88gt
04-22-2008, 01:52 AM
Thios isnt really Ford-specific, but I dont see a General tech forum.

Right now I usually run Shell V-Power 93 octane in my 347. Its currently at $3.69/gallon. The local E85 station is at $2.79/gallon. A friend of mine did some testing with his Flex Fuel F150 and his conclusion was that E85 needs to be about $.50 cheaper to be the same value as 87 octane, so with the $.90 difference between E85 and V-Power, I'm quite interested in this. Here's my fuel system:

Quick Fuel 750 carb (gasoline)
This Holley electric pump (http://holley.com/12-150.asp)
Stainless braided line (rubber inside the braid)
Sumped stock gas tank

#1: Ive seen the Quick Fuel metering blocks for sale for E85. Ive heard that you need to jet about 30% more, and would want a .150 Needle & seat. Is it just that simple, for carb modifications, swap the metering blocks, change the jets and the needle?

#2: Will those fuel lines and gas tank be OK for E85 on a daily driven car?

#3: Ive read that the E85 has different burn characteristics than gasoline. What needs to be done with the timing?

I would be tuning with a wideband looking for a target A/F of 7.8-8.0 (.80-.81 Lambda).

Thanks for the help! Dan

Breecher_7
04-22-2008, 05:44 AM
Just a tip, E85 gets garbage milage. Im not so sure its any better of a deal with the price difference. Kind of a gimmick IMO

forest
04-22-2008, 06:54 AM
with a much slower burn rate, thr octane rating is much higher, therefor alowing you to run much more comp, and timing, or boost. basically a poor mans race gas. you will want to advance the timing by as much as 4degrees total lead, and come into the curve faster to see any reall gain in your car besides worse mileage. since methanol is corrosive over time, you rubber seals, o-rings, and gaskets will fail and go into you carb, or filter, ect... causing problems later. ever notice how most fords have stainless rails? thats so they wont corrode when installed on a flex fuel vehicle. lots of parts to change, but worth it if on boost ect....

juicedimpss
04-22-2008, 08:52 AM
Just a tip, E85 gets garbage milage. Im not so sure its any better of a deal with the price difference. Kind of a gimmick IMO

x2

BAD LS1
04-22-2008, 09:09 AM
Only when it becomes mixed with moisture (read hydroscopic) it then becomes galvonic. We have tested some carburetors here with 5,10, and 15% water content mixed with the E85, it actually went to work and ate any aluminum or zinc body carb we tried. When we removed the bowl, it had this clear hand sanitizer looking jelly formed and once it hit air, it evaporated and left little chunks of metal behind that it turned to liquid before and suspended. Nasty shit. the ONLY thing that was found to resist it, was chrome plated carb bodies, but the brass emulsion tubes and jetting still suffered.

It didnt do much to rubber or plastic part except dry them a bit.

Its a cheap alternative to race gas is about all its good for. More marketing assholes at work again with this product.

To expound on forrest's comment, 1 gallon of gasoline has about 124,000 BTU's of potential, where 1 gallon of E85 has about 96,000... Thats pretty drastic.

ND4SPD
04-22-2008, 09:34 AM
E85 is an abomination. Everyone has already pretty much hit the high points... you won't see me putting it in a vehicle... ever. Whether that vehicle is designed for it or not. It's a crap fuel. Like BADLS1 said... the only reason it's around is because of slick marketing and government subsidies.

Smokey1226
04-22-2008, 09:59 AM
I know of some people who have Huge $$$$$ in the Ethanol market. They will argue all day long about how its the best thing since sliced bread. I on the other hand am not for it, but thats just me.

wikked
04-22-2008, 10:25 AM
I know of some people who have Huge $$$$$ in the Ethanol market. They will argue all day long about how its the best thing since sliced bread. I on the other hand am not for it, but thats just me.

Hey people argued in favor of Windows Vista too... both are overhyped failures.

forest
04-22-2008, 11:08 AM
Only when it becomes mixed with moisture (read hydroscopic) it then becomes galvonic. We have tested some carburetors here with 5,10, and 15% water content mixed with the E85, it actually went to work and ate any aluminum or zinc body carb we tried. When we removed the bowl, it had this clear hand sanitizer looking jelly formed and once it hit air, it evaporated and left little chunks of metal behind that it turned to liquid before and suspended. Nasty shit. the ONLY thing that was found to resist it, was chrome plated carb bodies, but the brass emulsion tubes and jetting still suffered.

It didnt do much to rubber or plastic part except dry them a bit.

Its a cheap alternative to race gas is about all its good for. More marketing assholes at work again with this product.

To expound on forrest's comment, 1 gallon of gasoline has about 124,000 BTU's of potential, where 1 gallon of E85 has about 96,000... Thats pretty drastic.

agreed completely, but imagine those dried lines with 60+ psi going throught them...... sorry, I think FI. :thumbsup

DurtyKurty
04-22-2008, 12:03 PM
I ran it for about 3 years in a turbocharged EFI car.

Gasoline will make more power then ethanol just for the simple reason stated above. Gasoline has more energy by volume then ethanol. Period.

However, you can take advantage of it's octane rating to make more power then 93 octane gasoline.

It's interesting to hear how harsh it is on carburetors. My efi system was made of all standard components. I never had a component failure or any indication of wear on the fuel system.

Personally, I like the stuff. It's clean and is about the only thing that is capable of getting the oil monkey off our back and still work in our cars.

I guess I really didn't say anything new here, but just added some personal experience. And, I think I'm the only supporter of it. :) ... even though I'll probably never deliberately use it again. :D

badass88gt
04-22-2008, 01:02 PM
Here was one reply on another site.


Things I know,My math sucks but my wifes explorer gets 330 mile per tank of fuel with gas and on e85 it gets 260 so according to my math thats 22% this is mileage not energy content

So just figuring A 20 gallon tank to make the math easy, on gas she gets 16.5mpg, on E85 she gets 13.

In my car with the stock 15 gallon tank it would take me $55.35 to fill up with 93, and E85 will take $41.85.

I wonder if it would even be worth it?

badass88gt
04-22-2008, 01:04 PM
E85 is an abomination. Everyone has already pretty much hit the high points... you won't see me putting it in a vehicle... ever. Whether that vehicle is designed for it or not. It's a crap fuel. Like BADLS1 said... the only reason it's around is because of slick marketing and government subsidies.

Is this your opinion based on personal experience through testing of your own, or is it based on what youve heard and read?

DurtyKurty
04-22-2008, 01:20 PM
Here was one reply on another site.



So just figuring A 20 gallon tank to make the math easy, on gas she gets 16.5mpg, on E85 she gets 13.

In my car with the stock 15 gallon tank it would take me $55.35 to fill up with 93, and E85 will take $41.85.

I wonder if it would even be worth it?

Well if your like that guy, and you only use 22% more, you will be ahead because you paid 25% less. So you had a net advantage of 3%.

Factor in the cost of the change over, and it may not be worth it. Check my math though. I may have it backwards.

Remember that ethanol is subsidized. It is kept at a cost, so as to be competitive with gasoline. AKA, it should work out to be a wash and it usually does.

Yooformula
04-22-2008, 01:27 PM
yeah it is subsidized as the cost of corn sky rockets to keep up with the demand.

BAD LS1
04-22-2008, 02:46 PM
Here is a pic of a carb body we took with 10% water by volume mixed with the E85 after 2 weeks is static sitting.

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii173/LS1builder/DSCN2090.jpg

DurtyKurty
04-22-2008, 02:55 PM
would that still happen if the water wasn't present?

juicedimpss
04-22-2008, 02:58 PM
^^^^plus,why you guys premixing water ?

BAD LS1
04-22-2008, 02:59 PM
would that still happen if the water wasn't present?

Its less likley, the water is the catalyst to make the shit start etching metal. However its got so much alcohol in it, it saps moisture right from there air like an air conditioner! The chances of having 10% water in it is rare, the engine wont even run... but this could happen if your stuff sits over winter though in a constant swinging temp area... gauranteed condensation.

BAD LS1
04-22-2008, 03:00 PM
^^^^plus,why you guys premixing water ?

To go as far as it takes to prove a point. This could happen with very little water in it, it just needs more time.

juicedimpss
04-22-2008, 03:04 PM
To go as far as it takes to prove a point. This could happen with very little water in it, it just needs more time.

that doesnt look too much different than some of the snowmobile carbs ive seen apart.....with just reformulated garbage gas.

BAD LS1
04-22-2008, 03:09 PM
that doesnt look too much different than some of the snowmobile carbs ive seen apart.....with just reformulated garbage gas.

Same deal your right. Thats only 10% ethanol in there doing that though! Imagine this shit being in there for a few months!

DurtyKurty
04-22-2008, 03:10 PM
It only does this with nonferrous metals?

That_Guy
04-22-2008, 03:27 PM
that doesnt look too much different than some of the snowmobile carbs ive seen apart.....with just reformulated garbage gas.

yep. i had to put new pistons in my old sled and new carbs because of that crap.

i now fill up in dodge and other counties that dont use 10%

DRK
04-22-2008, 04:24 PM
You guys should see what sunoco purple does to shit when it sits. I personally have seen two fuel cells (1 ATL and 1 Fuel Safe) break down over a winter and send jelly to the pumps.
E-85 is a great alternative to race gas in a street car, it's just not a cost effective alternative to pump gas.
I have run straight methanol in a aluminum cell with aluminum lines to a all aluminum motor and haven't seen the amount of corrosion in those couple pics. I wonder if you didn't have some other problem happening.

wrath
04-24-2008, 09:32 AM
Where are the nearest E85 stations? I've only seen one and that was in the Ghetto. I don't even remember where it was at but it was somewhere on the way to Cabela's.

Is anyone here using E85 in a non-flexfuel vehicle without a tune?

DurtyKurty
04-24-2008, 09:44 AM
Where are the nearest E85 stations? I've only seen one and that was in the Ghetto. I don't even remember where it was at but it was somewhere on the way to Cabela's.

102 stations in Wisconsin (http://www.e85refueling.com/locations.php?resultpage=1&state=wiWisconsin)


Is anyone here using E85 in a non-flexfuel vehicle without a tune?

I have heard of a few people trying it. It's not a good idea.

juicedimpss
04-24-2008, 09:52 AM
are there any other things to change other than the tune?

DurtyKurty
04-24-2008, 10:08 AM
Not in my experience. I used all standard fuel system components. 42lbs motorsport injectors, 255lph walbor pump, stock FPR, etc.

Just make sure you fuel system is big enough. At 400RWHP though an auto, I was maxing out 42lbs injectors with it.

juicedimpss
04-24-2008, 10:15 AM
i wonder what the old vortech would need in the TBI for injectors

wrath
04-24-2008, 10:24 AM
From what I understand flexfuel vehicles have two maps in them. Once the computer notices it needs a lot more fuel it looks to see if it can advance the timing too. If it can, it jumps to the E85 map.

When I was looking at part numbers there seems to be no difference between E85 and E10 vehicles except sometimes fuel pumps (higher volume I assumed), injectors (again, higher volume I assumed), and ECM/PCM.

While alcohol is definitely more abusive to just about everything, almost everything that was built in the last 15 years can already take ethanol. It doesn't really matter how much ethanol is there as long as it's there.

So, I'm not worried about E85 eating shit, I'm more worried about the ECM/PCM knowing what to do with it.

wrath
04-24-2008, 10:25 AM
i wonder what the old vortech would need in the TBI for injectors

The biggest they make is 110lb/hr at 100%. That might be enough for a tired 350.