Obama has been giving the same speech

[05caddyext]

Obama was the keynote speaker at the 2004 Democratic National Convention. He gave the same speech he gives now for himself for John Kerry. It's almost identical, he just inserts himself. Kind of interesting, you would think that he would have changed up his speech 4 years later. A few notable quotes - "John Kerry calls on us to Hope." Hmm. Thats what he says about himself now.

Oh and to lay something to rest. He says this. "We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America."

I can't believe how much of this speech has been recycled to fit his own campaign 4 years later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNCLomrqIN8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56-m8wx1mwo&feature=related

[Karps TA]

Well atleast he sticks to something I guess. Beat Hillary who changes whatever she has to say depending on who she's trying to bamboozle.

[05caddyext]

I agree, however he isn't sticking to it. He changed it to fit him. My point is that it's generic.

[Breecher_7]

If Obama gets elected I will be holding a seminar for BCM members on how to make your home somewhat resistent to explosions. Also Im thinking we should talk to some contractors about a group rate on bomb shelters.

I know who I want to vote for but I also know that it will be a "wasted" vote because he will not get elected.

I will be voting for hilary only because bill is in the background and Im terrified of the outcome of obama getting elected.

Also, let me make this perfectly clear that this is a PREDICTION and in NO WAY a THREAT.

I firmly believe that IF Obama wins the election, he will be assasinated before he is inagurated.

There is to much of america that is still racist, the united states will not have a black president with a muslim name.

[OxmanWI]

That guy is a clown, wont even place a his hand over his heart during the national anthem or wear a American flag pin on his lapel cause he's trying to be different. The guy is a con-artist, I have no idea why people are drawn to him. Freaken weirdo...

[05caddyext]

wont even place a his hand over his heart during the national anthem or wear a American flag pin on his lapel cause he's trying to be different. The guy is a con-artist, I have no idea why people are drawn to him. Freaken weirdo...


Simply not true.

[moels]

I stopped voting long ago because it doesn't matter who is in office, this country is going down the toilet anyway. I'd like to see a middle class person who has a good head on his/her shoulders and knows the cost of a gallon of milk run for President. They'd get my vote.

Politicians are the biggest fukkin crooks in the world.

[Prince Valiant]

My beef with BO is that he only speaks in platitudes...I mean, c'mon, anyone can do that.

If you hope for a canidate that believes in hope...vote BO.

I mean, really..."hope"? What's that supposed to mean? Everyone "hopes"...some hope for evil diabolical things.

BO, and his supporters ferverently believe that simply "hoping" for something makes it happen...as if that's what everyone simply lacked. I mean, the only audacious thing about BO so far has been naming his book "the audacity of hope"

But to get ANY of the things you "hope" for, you need to work. You may set pie-in-the-sky goals, but how do you get there?

And do you think just because you say it's what you hope, people will just go along with it?

Hey, I "hope" for isreal and the rest of the middle eastern countries to exist together in peace. Great. How do we get that?

I hope those given to terrorism will give up the fight and go on to living their lives with their families. How does this happen?

I hope that people will create jobs, so many so that demand for jobs is greater than those to fill them and thus real living wages goes up. How much "hope" will get people creating these jobs doing it?

I hope that we can start finding cheaper prices at the pump. Will this take me crossing my fingers?

This is why I think he'll flame out...maybe not in the primaries, and scarily, maybe not in the general election. What if it happens 100 days in office? Where will simply "hoping" get us?

[Brandon W.]

I stopped voting long ago because it doesn't matter who is in office, this country is going down the toilet anyway. I'd like to see a middle class person who has a good head on his/her shoulders and knows the cost of a gallon of milk run for President. They'd get my vote.

Politicians are the biggest fukkin crooks in the world.

sadly a middle class person will never be able to run for office..it costs $$$ to be the leader of a nation, not brains..dUh:rolf:rolf:rolf

[moels]

^^^ Exactly right, that's what is wrong with the world

[Brandon W.]

^^^ Exactly right, that's what is wrong with this country

fixed..how many other countries are like this? politicians in the middle east, or africa, and im sure europe dont have an extended amount of money, obviously there are certain cases, but im sure atleast they have had had atleast one RECENT "blue collar" middle class "ruler" or "president".

[moels]

fixed..how many other countries are like this? politicians in the middle east, or africa, and im sure europe dont have an extended amount of money, obviously there are certain cases, but im sure atleast they have had had atleast one RECENT "blue collar" middle class "ruler" or "president".

Gone are the days of Ghandi, I would bet that every leader of every country is considered wealthy in that country.

[Holeshot]

Until this country goes to popular vote by the people things will never ever change !!!
The Delegate system was put in to place just to avoid a popular vote.

[Prince Valiant]

The delegate system is probably the wisest thing the founding fathers gave us.

What's funny is that we talk about "african" or third world countries as if they have democracy's...they don't. No one "runs for" leaders of these countries, more often, they "kill for" or are bequethed it.

In many of these countries, FAR and AWAY, the leader is the wealthiest in the country...many times because they are so corrupt and steal from it's own people (look at the great Benzair Bhutto...she was estimated to have 1.5 billion in cash, and 1 billion in property).

Take pakistan...you need to form a political party to rise to role of leadership. Then, that political party doesn't "pick" it's leader based on their merits...It's leader is who the founder says it is (in this case, almost always the founder). What if that founder no longer is alive (as in the case of Bhutto)? No worries, the leader had a order of succession (in bhutto's case, her son...but he was too young, so it's her estranged husband).

Oh, and aurgueably our greatest president, Lincoln, wasn't a wealthy man, and he was elected president.

But the prescence of wealth, or the lack-there-of would be any predictor of sucess nor failure imo.

[GRAMPS SS]

i'm sure i will get flamed for this....do you really think your vote counts....ifeel the pres has already been picked...come november you just go and waste paper....your vote don't count....i've felt this way for many years.....now it is who has the backing and who they want in office....JMO......the founding fathers are turning in there graves.....

[Knyghtmare]

Thank god some of you agree with me and see through his bullshit.

[SSDude]

Until this country goes to popular vote by the people things will never ever change !!!
The Delegate system was put in to place just to avoid a popular vote.

How the Electoral College
Works Today
http://www.fairvote.org/e_college/today.htm
The popular vote drives the electoral college.

Your vote can make a difference. If all the boobs who think their vote doesn't matter voted we might have a different outcome.:mad:

[Holeshot]

I vote and always have.

[Prince Valiant]

i'm sure i will get flamed for this....do you really think your vote counts....ifeel the pres has already been picked...come november you just go and waste paper....your vote don't count....i've felt this way for many years.....now it is who has the backing and who they want in office....JMO......the founding fathers are turning in there graves..... Well, when elections have been decided by as few as 6 votes, it does.

However, even in states where my vote won't make up for the 10, 15, 50 thousand votes my side may fall short of, I vote anyways. Then, I can claim the right to b*tch about it.

[Karps TA]

What about Super Delegates? Where in the Democratic party if they don't like who the people choose the Democratic Super Delegates will vote in the person who the party wants as the choice.

I think the country is in a real bad place if these 4 canidates are the best this country can come up with to lead us. It's a sad state of affairs when these are our "choices". The founders of this country are literally rolling in their graves.

[SSDude]

I vote and always have.

Sorry about that Holeshot I didn't mean to flame you about voting. I meant to quote someone else on that.:thumbsup

[GRAMPS SS]

Well, when elections have been decided by as few as 6 votes, it does.

However, even in states where my vote won't make up for the 10, 15, 50 thousand votes my side may fall short of, I vote anyways. Then, I can claim the right to b*tch about it.


i have been voting since 1976....hoping my vote ,makes a difference...so since i vote...i'm intitled to my opinion and to bitchh about it as well....i have my views...everyone here has theres....thats what makes this country what it is...so far what everyone agrees on is that no way should he be the pres and the founding fathers are turning in there graves.....will i vote this year...hell yea...do i think it will count...in my opinion..no i don't...but thats my opinon...i'm intitled to that for this country is a free country.....

[SSDude]

I think the country is in a real bad place if these 4 canidates are the best this country can come up with to lead us. It's a sad state of affairs when these are our "choices". The founders of this country are literally rolling in their graves.

How true. Unfortunately there are a lot of good people who would never consider running and exposing themselves to the extreme scrutiny and criticism that comes with the job.

[Prince Valiant]

What about Super Delegates? Where in the Democratic party if they don't like who the people choose the Democratic Super Delegates will vote in the person who the party wants as the choice.
.Constitution says nothing about how parties will determine their own canidates. So superdelegates are the something that they felt, in their infinite wisdom, was a wise thing :rolleyes:

It's like animal farm...some delegates are more equal than others.

Basically, it's like the green party...everything can be done behind closed doors if they wanted, pick names out of a hat, come to a convention and lobby, etc, etc, etc. Hell, they could play poker for it if they so choosed.

In this country we don't truly have a "two party" system that most complain about imo...

but you have different coalitions that find common ground within the two largest parties. Hey, commie's typically vote for dems, this I know (ex was a card carrying member of the communist party).

In most countries with numerous parties, they have to form coalitions since no one party gets over 50% of the seats in the parliment. Then, the party with the most seats has to form coalitions, make agreements, appoint opposing party officials to post, etc to get the top dog/PM/president/whatever post.

The parties in these other countries tend to be off the wall narrow scope. You'll have 2, 3, 4 different parties on the left side, and possibly the same number on the right side and all of varying degrees of conservatism/liberalism. The party may have a narrow agenda...may have a broad agenda.

But is it any better? Rarely. Say your party DOES get the PM posistion...guess what, to get there they may have had to make so many deals that "your guy" will be paralyzed in his/her ability to advance the agenda you voted for. Sometimes, it's so bad that ABSOLUTELY nothing gets done. And then the gov't falls apart, no-confidence vote issued, and the process starts all over again....a drawn out process in which again, the business of the gov't fails to get done.

So is it any worse or better? Hardly.

A true multi-party system here in the US would result in much the same thing via our constitution...too many delegates getting split, so no one party gets a majority. Then that sends it to congress, where votes along party line. A majority is still needed, so again, negotiations, coalitions, and compromise would be made. And if the person who got the most votes in the popular contest has few party members, do you think he/she would get elected? Nope.

Right now, we just seem to get those coalition formations within the parties. Look at the republicans...social conservative may or may not have different goals than fiscal conservatives. Then there is the libertarian wing of the party, and don't forget the national security guys...so on and so forth. Generally the guy who gets the nomination is the one that energizes all distinct bases of the party

...and of course, there are guys that tend to not be all-one, or the other, but show tendecy of all rolled into one...or maybe they shift their preferences based on what they see the biggest looming concern is.

So when people ***** and whine about the US system, it really does get tired. This is the system that has allowed it's citizens to really make up the greatest, wealthies, strongest, and most generous country the world has ever known.

If you don't like it, go to canadia. :fire

[SSDude]

Hey, commie's typically vote for dems, this I know (ex was a card carrying member of the communist party).



I've always heard "Liberalism is one step away from Communism" :thumbsup

[GRAMPS SS]

it's not that Karps TA doesn't like it...but he as everyone does have the FREEDOM OF SPEECH...or has that been taken away...he has his opions ans others have theres....thats's what get people talking and thinking....with out that...we are screwed....JMO

[GTSLOW]

Also, let me make this perfectly clear that this is a PREDICTION and in NO WAY a THREAT.

I firmly believe that IF Obama wins the election, he will be assasinated before he is inagurated.

There is to much of america that is still racist, the united states will not have a black president with a muslim name.

I've been waiting for someone to say this. I've thought this since day one, some hick somewhere or something would loose a screw upstairs and we all know the rest.

[Karps TA]

it's not that Karps TA doesn't like it...but he as everyone does have the FREEDOM OF SPEECH...or has that been taken away...he has his opions ans others have theres....thats's what get people talking and thinking....with out that...we are screwed....JMO

EXACTLY. I can tell you right now that when I hear the Star Spangled Banner played before a game I get goosebumps EVERY time. That thing that Fox did before the Super Bowl about the Declaration of Independence gave me chills and at the same time made me sad as hell at how far removed this country has become from what it was meant to be.

Every man was to have a voice in this country. And that's no longer the case. Our voice is not as loud as a lobbyist voice. Our country is not being run by we the people. It's being run be they the special interest groups. When is the last time you've have your congressman send you a letter to invite you to an open forum to talk about what's important to you or to your district? I mean besides in an election year when he is begging to keep his job and will tell you whatever you want to hear? The President is supposed to be the voice of this country. However, atleast this one (who I did vote for) hears nothing of what the country tells him.

It's disheartening to me to see the country falling apart in so many ways. Our greatest minds would rather be in private industry then to lead our country. Our roads and infrastructure is falling apart with no money to pay for it. We're more concerned with the rights of illegals then we are concerned for the middle class who pays the bills. Our schools keep getting shot up, but we spend more money on other countries safety and security. We continue to tell everyone else how they should live and run their govt, while turning a blind eye to our own problems. Our bravest men, the people who actually serve, have some of the highest rates of being homeless after their tours of duty, and the healthcare we give them is atrocious and embarassing.

I think the country isn't beyond being saved. However it can't be saved by continuing to vote in people who have done virtually nothing the last couple decades. This country needs an enema in the worst way.

[pickardracing]

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20080213/capt.1ddedaf1d5124b3f89c3b9e28d938904.clinton_2008 _txeg104.jpg

[Prince Valiant]

Every man was to have a voice in this country. And that's no longer the case. Bunk. Platitudes.

"every man was to have a voice"? Really, in what manner was this voice supposed to be responded to? I say what I want and I get it? Clearly THAT can't be it.

Your voice can be heard if you want it to...get involved in politics, don't just vote. Show up at town hall meetings. Write your congressman. Call them. Write a letter to the newspaper (I've written two to the journal, and countless ones to even more local papers (and the shepard express).

I mean, you certainly have a right to *****, no doubt. But, if you REALLY want to be heard for concerns you REALLY have, don't ***** that no ones going to hear you, get out and make yourself heard. Lobby friends to help amplify your voice. Call people to action.

If your voice is worth hearing, people will respond.


Our voice is not as loud as a lobbyist voice.Lobbyist represents the voice of people too. Pro-life lobby, pro-choice lobby, pro-gun lobby, anti-gun lobby, lobby for taxpayers, lobbyist for the poor...you can pretty much find lobbyist for pretty much anything. Even corporate lobbyist are representing, are working for corporations owned by people like you and me.

You want a louder voice? Get out there and make your opinions known. Stop griping that others have found a better and more effective way to express themselves.


Our country is not being run by we the people. It's being run be they the special interest groups. oooooo...."special interest groups" sounds scary.

Or more like rhetorical flourishes that a populist canidate would be given to. Same as lobbyist. NRA is a "special interest group" and it is special, because they represent MY interest.

...it's one of the reasons I support them with my membership.


When is the last time you've have your congressman send you a letter to invite you to an open forum to talk about what's important to you or to your district? Look at Paul Ryan...he has roughly 4 "town hall" meetings a year in his district. Fiengold has b/w 2-5 a year, trying to keep a campaign promise to have a town hall meeting in every county in Wisconsin.


The President is supposed to be the voice of this country. However, atleast this one (who I did vote for) hears nothing of what the country tells him. Not exactly...he was voted to act in the best interest of the country as he saw fit....even if it's not exactly what we want at the moment. Some may (look at clinton...he had pollsters find out if the US citizens would accept him owning up to his affair...or not)

In a campaign, they put out there qualities, their posistions, you try to figure out their character, whatever is important to you...based on that, you make your choice.

If one says he'll do what he thinks is right no matter what, and the other says "I'll do whatever the people want", then vote your conscience.


then we are concerned for the middle class who pays the bills.Bunk. The top 5% (roughly 150,000 year/income and up) of income earners pay 53% of the total income taxes collected. It's so disportionate that if you looked at the top 10%, it's only 65%. The top 50% pay 96% of all taxes income taxes collected in the US.

[Knyghtmare]

With all the scandals and BS and curruption in the government, you cannot honestly tell me that our individual votes count. I vote and I always will, but it never matters because the electorals are going to vote for whoever they want no matter what the popular vote. The elections should be run off each indavidual vote, all the people going to the poles are doing is giving their opinion upon deaf ears and having some jackass vote for whoever he wants anyway. The electoral college IMO is a joke and it always has been. All it is, is insurance that if the powers to be dont like what the people want then they can have it their own way anyway.

All the people who cry about Bush, wont accept the fact that they/we the people voted him in and how did he ever get voted in, blah blah blah... Yet they say that the electoral college listens and our individual votes count.

I hope to hell that presidential elections are run truthfully and according to what the citizens of this country want, but like I said I think its all on deaf ears. When I vote, I vote with the hope that I am wrong.

[WickedSix]

a 'person' can be intelligent... 'people' tend to be stupid ...... I vote and at the poles I will no doubt get to look eye to eye with the person who effectively canceled out my vote.... I don't get y so many people are on thw wagon for obama..... seriously.... how effective will he be with ANYTHING??? just remember hitler came charging in and made people feel better about themselves and their country too :thumbsup

[pickardracing]

You guys wear tin hats too?

:rolleyes:

[05caddyext]

Interesting difference in his speech from now - he says his father left his family he was only 2 years old. In the speech he at the convention, he doesn't mention this at all. In fact he wrote a book called "Dreams from My Father." I haven't read it yet, but the back is interesting. It says that Obama's mother is white. Didn't know that either.

[Waver]

Well atleast he sticks to something I guess. Beat Hillary who changes whatever she has to say depending on who she's trying to bamboozle.

It is because of that that he will probably win the nomination and will be running in 08.....honestly, that is one of the biggest things that hurt kerry, the flip floping.....But I do agree with the statement that obama is recycling shit from the previous election.....I guess he is just a little more believeable when he says it

[Syclone0044]

I really think Ron Paul is the answer to a lot of the concerns I see mentioned here. You said you want a middle class guy who isn't corrupted and knows the price of milk.

Ron Paul worked on a farm, delivered newspapers, and was a milkman when he was younger. He got drafted into the the USAF during the CMC and Vietnam war and served as flight surgeon. During the same time he also worked in a local church's hospital emergency room for $3/hr. Ultimately he became an OB/GYN.

Here's a look at John McCain's top 5 campaign contributions: (source: http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.asp?id=N00006424&cycle=2008)

Merrill Lynch $155,950
Citigroup Inc $153,362
Blank Rome LLP $141,401
Greenberg Traurig LLP $130,587
Goldman Sachs $85,252


Here's the top 5 for Ron Paul:

US Army $68,817
US Navy $57,076
US Air Force $52,371
Google Inc $51,382
Microsoft Corp $46,079


Funny that the only anti-war Republican (Ron Paul) gets the most support from the military. What does that tell you? BTW, none of the armed forces even show up on McCain's contributions list on that site.

I think that a vote for Ron Paul is the strongest signal you can send - that we're sick and tired of what we have been getting (corrupt politicians) and we want someone more honest.

[Silver03SRT]

We will be screwed if Obama or Hilary get in. I am building a bomb shelter if either one gets in. I would rather see McCain in there. I wish Romney would not have dropped out.

[GTSLOW]

I really think Ron Paul is the answer to a lot of the concerns I see mentioned here. You said you want a middle class guy who isn't corrupted and knows the price of milk.

Ron Paul worked on a farm, delivered newspapers, and was a milkman when he was younger. He got drafted into the the USAF during the CMC and Vietnam war and served as flight surgeon. During the same time he also worked in a local church's hospital emergency room for $3/hr. Ultimately he became an OB/GYN.

Here's a look at John McCain's top 5 campaign contributions: (source: http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.asp?id=N00006424&cycle=2008)

Merrill Lynch $155,950
Citigroup Inc $153,362
Blank Rome LLP $141,401
Greenberg Traurig LLP $130,587
Goldman Sachs $85,252


Here's the top 5 for Ron Paul:

US Army $68,817
US Navy $57,076
US Air Force $52,371
Google Inc $51,382
Microsoft Corp $46,079


Funny that the only anti-war Republican (Ron Paul) gets the most support from the military. What does that tell you? BTW, none of the armed forces even show up on McCain's contributions list on that site.

I think that a vote for Ron Paul is the strongest signal you can send - that we're sick and tired of what we have been getting (corrupt politicians) and we want someone more honest.

Wow that is crazy. I've always wondered who this dude was.

[lordairgtar]

I really think Ron Paul is the answer to a lot of the concerns I see mentioned here. You said you want a middle class guy who isn't corrupted and knows the price of milk.

Ron Paul worked on a farm, delivered newspapers, and was a milkman when he was younger. He got drafted into the the USAF during the CMC and Vietnam war and served as flight surgeon. During the same time he also worked in a local church's hospital emergency room for $3/hr. Ultimately he became an OB/GYN.

Here's a look at John McCain's top 5 campaign contributions: (source: http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.asp?id=N00006424&cycle=2008)

Merrill Lynch $155,950
Citigroup Inc $153,362
Blank Rome LLP $141,401
Greenberg Traurig LLP $130,587
Goldman Sachs $85,252


Here's the top 5 for Ron Paul:

US Army $68,817
US Navy $57,076
US Air Force $52,371
Google Inc $51,382
Microsoft Corp $46,079


Funny that the only anti-war Republican (Ron Paul) gets the most support from the military. What does that tell you? BTW, none of the armed forces even show up on McCain's contributions list on that site.

I think that a vote for Ron Paul is the strongest signal you can send - that we're sick and tired of what we have been getting (corrupt politicians) and we want someone more honest.
I was looking over that site and noticed that a lot of these contributors give to more than one contender. Microsoft gave three times as much to Hillary than to Ron Paul. Why is that? Covering their bases?

[Breecher_7]

We will be screwed if Obama or Hilary get in. I am building a bomb shelter if either one gets in. I would rather see McCain in there. I wish Romney would not have dropped out.

Stop stealing my ideas!!!!!!!! :chair:

Bomb shelter FTW!!!!

[Silver03SRT]

well great minds think alike. youre the bomb tech you better know how to protect yourself against them. haha im counting on you to save my like.:thumbsup

[Prince Valiant]

I was looking over that site and noticed that a lot of these contributors give to more than one contender. Microsoft gave three times as much to Hillary than to Ron Paul. Why is that? Covering their bases?Yep...more times that not (which is to say this isn't every case), you can more or less see what corporations think are going to be the winners based on the amount they give.

As well, why do they give to canidates who stand no chance of winning? Well, most times they realize that canidate still serves in office in some capacity and therefore recognizes the value in doing them a favor.

Sometimes it also recognizes that that canidate may yet have a political future, even if they stand no chance in this particular election.

[Karps TA]

I think the statements that's we're all going to die and the terrorists will win if an Dem. is elected is as crazy as the statements last election where celebs would say they'd leave the country if Bush was reelected. Despite what the current office, the Pres usually doesn't have all the power. He's just one crappy cog in a crap machine. lol

[Prince Valiant]

I think the statements that's we're all going to die and the terrorists will win if an Dem. is elected is as crazy as the statements last election where celebs would say they'd leave the country if Bush was reelected. Despite what the current office, the Pres usually doesn't have all the power. He's just one crappy cog in a crap machine. lol
And this is so true...

...however, there are SOME things that the president does direct, and his/her election does give mandates for that tend to take the country in particular directions, hence the election still is of some importance.

But, regardless of who wins, 99.9% of the people who currently work in the fed gov't will still work in the fed gov't....there competence or lack-there-of will still be there, the things that the gov't controls will more or less be run the same way, and the things they don't control/or only partly influence (ie, economy, value of dollar, # jobs in the market, etc) will still continue to do what it does with improvement's stemming not what the gov't does, but what it doesn't do or how much it's get's out of it's way.

[Karps TA]

I only worry about Hillary selling more secrets to the Chinese. Then again, she'd sell Chelsea to the Chinese if it meant some votes.

Not too mention we live in WI? Is there going to be a Jihad against beer, cheese and fat people? I somehow doubt we're really on their list.

[Silver03SRT]

Well I think that if they see a woman running the country then we are more vulnerable. Thats just my take.

[Karps TA]

That would make sense except for women run and have run several Muslim countries.

# Indonesia, the most populous Muslim-majority country, elected Megawati Sukarnoputri as president[7]
# Pakistan, the second most populous Muslim-majority country, twice (non-consecutively) elected Benazir Bhutto as prime minister[8]
# Bangladesh, the third most populous Muslim-majority country, elected Khaleda Zia[9] and Sheikh Hasina as prime ministers
# Turkey, the fifth most populous Muslim-majority country, elected Tansu Çiller as prime minister

Taken from wikipedia.

That in no way endorses the *****, but it shouldn't make a difference that way.

[Silver03SRT]

Well I still dont want that b*tch in the white house. There really is no good candidate out there.

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

Not much to worry about she is doomed and was DOA really.

[Karps TA]

I agree with that completely. I just don't see any of them making us safer or less safe. Actually I think McCain has the tendency to make us less safe by starting more crap. But that's just a gut feeling.

[Russ Jerome]

I know who I want to vote for but I also know that it will be a "wasted" vote .


Vote for whomever you like, wont change a thing in your
personnel life. Tax, fuel cost and war will go on just as planned.

If anybody here thinks one candidate is better than the other,
can actual change congress I have a story about how a lone
gunman sprayed out nearly half a dozen bullets from a 30yr old
bolt action carbine in Dallas in five seconds...........vote or dont
vote your opinion or vote will have no bearing on the future.

Following politics has got to be one of the biggest waste of
ones time there is. Go volunteer at a hospital, give blood or
something don't waste time talking about politicians who
have been lying since high school and actualy beleive themself
by now.

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

Vote for whomever you like, wont change a thing in your
personnel life. Tax, fuel cost and war will go on just as planned.

If anybody here thinks one candidate is better than the other,
can actual change congress I have a story about how a lone
gunman sprayed out nearly half a dozen bullets from a 30yr old
bolt action carbine in Dallas in five seconds...........vote or dont
vote your opinion or vote will have no bearing on the future.

Following politics has got to be one of the biggest waste of
ones time there is. Go volunteer at a hospital, give blood or
something don't waste time talking about politicians who
have been lying since high school and actualy beleive themself
by now.

Testify !!!!!!!!! :D :headbang

[Prince Valiant]

Not too mention we live in WI? Is there going to be a Jihad against beer, cheese and fat people? I somehow doubt we're really on their list.While I doubt there will be an attack here in WI, I do not doubt there will be, at some point in time, another attack on the US, regardless of who's in office.

It's remarkable to me that there hasn't been one in the US since 9/11

especially when you consider that many conspiracist who allege that it was either "allowed" to happen or otherwise "actively perpertrated by the gov't. Of course, for this to be true, one would have anticipated another attack at anytime the gov't poll numbers were down, or critical support behind an unpopular law was required...or MORE gains in governmental powers were needed. Certainly another event could have been "staged" or allowed to have occured. :rolleyes:

While I don't fear the repercussion of an attack because, quite frankly, I'm aware of the relative lack of personal harm it'd cause me, what I do fear from terrorism is:

1. Another successful attack creating a new wave of terrorist. What many refuse to concede is that successful attacks don't deter others from becoming terrorist, but instead is a huge incentive to join...hey, look at the bandwagon effect. Choosing to respond such as we did in afganistan may give would-be terrorist reason to articulate it differently, but those who went did so believing they could win, in part due to how successful the attacks of 9/11 were.

2. The forceful removal of otherwise peaceful/stable/friendly gov'ts in a region that is crucial (or even not). We've seen that terrorist DO wish to gain control of countries both crucial to the normal function not just of the US, but the world...and to do so by dominating the people through violence and intimidation. Even countries which we don't neccessarily view as crucial to national security (take afganistan), can effect us tremendously based on who is running it (hey, we left the taliban alone, and if anything, it could be argued that if it weren't for us, they wouldn't be in power....yet, they allowed al-queada to plan and mount a very destructive attack on US soil).

3. The continued appeasement and validation of the techniques employed by terrorist. Hey, now any minority group, anywhere in the world can get what it wants by staging attacks of civillians just trying to make a living. What a novel concept!

4. While chances are next to nill, it wouldn't be to untoward to envision an attack someplace in WI, or more likely a small "soft" target elsewhere in the US. Because as we know, terrorist know it may be difficult to pull of a "spetacular attack" on major landmarks again, so they look for the easier to pick-off locations (schools, hospitals, parks, malls) as they are easier to penetrate and still cause significant casualty and mayhem...evidence for this is pretty much abound throughout the world.

This is why I do feel that the next president SHOULD take seriously the threat of terrorism, and more importantly, recognize that they aren't against us because of perceived mistreatment via US foriegn policy as some would contend. Recognize, as it's been clearly stated by the terrorist themselves, this is about infidels (IE, anyone not muslim) and a desire to bring a caliphate to the world (IE ideal muslim rule) and is the only authority with full islamic backing (hence their attacks world-wide, against non-US states).

Fact is, virtually every middle-eastern and asiatic country (aside from china and russia) is having to deal more and more with islamic insurgents bent on bringing about their totaliristic islamic government in these countries...and they aren't exactly trying to do it nicely at the ballot-box either.

It's very much like the lie that treating someone like Hitler with Kiddie gloves would make hime play nice...nope, it emboldened him to keep taking whatever he wanted. Why people think terrorist are different, I don't know.

[GTSLOW]

Bomb shelter FTW!!!!


Quoted for the truth.

[Karps TA]

I agree with you, except I don't think you can take terrorism out by force. The more countries we barge into the more unrest and unnerving we make the people of those countries feel and it makes the nutbags sound like they are on the right track.

Most of the people the Al Qeida's and like recruit do it because they need money and are promised things for their family if they join. These countries and people are so poor and without jobs and ways to make a living they are easy to target for recruitment. They see their country in shambles and the terrorists blame the US for the conditions and they are easily brainwashed.

The best way to fight terrorism is to prove to these people that our way of life is a better way of life, and a better opportunity for them and their families. But we certainly don't show them that. You can bet that Al Jazeera, or whatever their news is, focuses on our economy failing, our politicians fighting each other, school shootings, gang violence, etc... And all of that kind of news feeds the cry of the Jihadists. That our method of rule doesn't work, and doesn't provide, and that we're a greedy nation.

IMO unless you're going to pull a Hitler and try to wipe out a whole Religion you'll never stop terrorists. People will always rebel and try to gain control of the downtrodden.

Now I'm not saying it's not important to try and flush these a-holes out. I just don't think it's the most effective way.

We also need to learn that Democracy ain't for everyone. Some people just can't live by that form of govt, and it's okay. Sometimes people are so primitive that you need an iron fist in order to keep people in line. Sucks that we all haven't evolved yet, but it's true.

I wish we'd spend half as much money fighting domestic terrorists, ie gangs, in this country as we do trying to fight them around the world. Al Qeida likely isn't going to get me, but I do have a much better chance being shot and robbed by a Latin King member.

Just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[Prince Valiant]

Most of the people the Al Qeida's and like recruit do it because they need money and are promised things for their family if they join. These countries and people are so poor and without jobs and ways to make a living they are easy to target for recruitment. They see their country in shambles and the terrorists blame the US for the conditions and they are easily brainwashed. But we have evidence, STRONG evidence that this isn't the case:

1. What, 16 of the 19 terrorist were Saudi's...Saudi's aren't too bad off, even the lower class ones (which many of the ones weren't).

2) There is poverty the world over, in every hemisphere...but there is only one place that works to export terror. I mean, it's not that there isn't rampant crime in south/central america...or non-islamic portions of Asia, non-islamic portions of africa, or deep in Hindu dominated India. However, this doesn't neccessarily cause them to bring a global jihad about.

And of course, the two most powerful terrorist in the world? Worth on the order of 100's Millions, if not even multiple billions of dollars.

It's like crime...poverty doesn't cause terrorism.


The best way to fight terrorism is to prove to these people that our way of life is a better way of life, and a better opportunity for them and their families. But we certainly don't show them that. You can bet that Al Jazeera, or whatever their news is, focuses on our economy failing, our politicians fighting each other, school shootings, gang violence, etc... And all of that kind of news feeds the cry of the Jihadists. That our method of rule doesn't work, and doesn't provide, and that we're a greedy nation. Actually, most DO see our way of life...there are millions of arabs/pursians/middle eastern individuals and families living in the US. They are not naive to the typical US living.

What galls them more anything is drugs, alcohol, pre-marital sex, tolerance of gays, jews, on and on and on. These things are not tolerated in Islamic culture. This is the life of an "infidel" in there mind...and notice, this way of life most wealthy western countries.

It's because we have this freedom to live like this (if you chose) they hate...this is why they refer to the US as "the great satan". Notice, this is why you here the mantra "They hate us because we are free"

Other poor countries seem quite ambivilant toward us simply because their typical religions don't preach essentially to either Convert or Kill non-practicing members of their faiths.


IMO unless you're going to pull a Hitler and try to wipe out a whole Religion you'll never stop terrorists. Not true...no need to wipe out the whole religion. WE only need to worry about those who wish wipe out us.

Islam is going through sort of a "dark age" in which it's becoming decidely un-intellectual and unmodern; this is in contrast to when they were one of the most culturaly diverse and intellectually driven religions, preserving antiquities and advancing philosophy and science tremendous degrees.

As far as the current dominance of the unintellectual bent of islam, this isn't true throughout the whole religion though. There are many modern Islamic scholars and clerics who work against the current islamic drive to the middle ages. However, notice they aren't too loud about it....why? They'd be killed for defaming the "middle ages" versions of islam.

Now I'm not saying it's not important to try and flush these a-holes out. I just don't think it's the most effective way. Reasonable and principled aurguments against military action, no doubt.

And I don't think it's the answer in every case or country that we come against either. However, this is where some make some rather specious aurguments...

Unlike what some try to claim, we do NOT set as our goal to open a military front against EVERYWHERE terrorism is found. Instead, we fight it where it seems we are needed, or where their gov't does not (IE afhganistan) and provide support logistically/morally (take pakistan or philliphines for example), to isolation and back-door negotiations (Syria for example). The "War on Terror" in no way strictly a military operation (as some try to dishonestly frame it)...we use every means disposable and appropriate.


We also need to learn that Democracy ain't for everyone. Some people just can't live by that form of govt, and it's okay.This I certainly understand....this is why I never preach democracy for all. However, it is ostensibly the aurgument for some is that we DO deal with gov't that aren't democracy's (IE saudi arabia, Jordan, Kuwait, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc) that we are so hated; it's a Damned if you do, Damned if you don't situation. Appearently we can have NOTHING to do with gov't that has unhappy people.

However, I do believe a democracy can flourish in Iraq...they are still in the throws of hashing out the MAJOR details of the gov't, but they are getting there. There has been FAR less secretarian violence and those primarily responsible for it are on the run. Violence has decreased dramatically enough so that they are actually talking about bringing down some of the more draconian measures they used to enforce peace (such as seperation via concrete walls, etc).

May this someday be a shining light? Maybe, maybe not.

Interestingly enough, have you ever noticed the hypocrisy of those that say Democracy can never work in Iraq, are also the ones who most vehemently preach that it's the only thing that can save Pakistan?


I wish we'd spend half as much money fighting domestic terrorists, ie gangs, in this country as we do trying to fight them around the world. I don't think we need more money...because it isn't as if we are spending inadequate amounts.

It's that the tactics we are using are too weak-kneed to bust up the activities of said gangs and we are too unwilling to incarcirate those we do catch.

Why aren't we more heavy handed employing techniques NOW being employed by the new police chief? To many civil libertarians, ACLU, and others of a decided "liberal" slant exist in the cities where these problems are worst. They take a decidely soft approach to the problems and gangs run roughshod over the citizens. Strong law enforcement works...there are just too many unwilling to employ it.