Mitt Romney drops out of race

[lit666]

We're doomed

[Rocket Power]

Yep it's done.
I'll be voting for the state races though since control of the Assembly and Senate are close.
Huckelberry was being a Perot and f-ing it up. When you have to divide the anti McCain vote between 2 people then he's going to win.
Here comes at least 4 years of a Socialist nanny state

[BlackViper]

won't be voting this time around.....to call McCain a republican is a JOKE!! Duechbag

[Want_Notch]

Great......so there will be two Democrat's running after the conventions.


Where in the hell is Ronald Regan when you need a good Republican?

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

Horrible news, atleast Mccain is right about iraq and the U.S. needing to be there "oh around a hundred years".

I know he is also pro-amnesty for illegal's which isn't horrible since we can't send those folk's back anyway. I need to check his stance on building a huge southern border wall, I think he may be for it. In which case atleast he make's sense on something.

I just hope "tax hike mike" huckabee is not his choice for V.P.

[GRNDNL]

won't be voting this time around.....to call McCain a republican is a JOKE!! Duechbag


We have to vote, I'm just not going to vote for a president this time around.

[ND4SPD]

Looks like we're going to have a Liberal/Democrat for president one way or another whether it's McCain, Obama, or Clinton. :fire

[Want_Notch]

Looks like we're going to have a Liberal/Democrat for president one way or another whether it's McCain, Obama, or Clinton. :fire

No, Clinton is not a Democrat. She's a communist. McCain and Obama are Democrat's

[Al]

We're doomed

And how?


Horrible news, atleast Mccain is right about iraq and the U.S. needing to be there "oh around a hundred years".

I know he is also pro-amnesty for illegal's which isn't horrible since we can't send those folk's back anyway. I need to check his stance on building a huge southern border wall, I think he may be for it. In which case atleast he make's sense on something.

I just hope "tax hike mike" huckabee is not his choice for V.P.

The only thing Romney said that I agreed strongly with is that he is against same-sex marriage because he feels that children need both a mom and a dad.

I like that Mccain stands in Iraq. I really feel that one should finish what they start. We already didn't finish the job once and look what happened.

As for Illegals, bush didn't do much. It is very well known that corporations and businesses benefit from the illegals, which is why some say little has been done about it these past 7 years. There are two ways the US can benefit from the illegals: keep things the way they are so that buisness wins, or make them citizens so that the taxpayers win.


My biggest concern this coming election is healthcare. I'm for national healthcare. It is not me that I am concerned about, but my friends who have held jobs for years yet still cannot afford to insure themselves.
Right now, the system is tuned for max profit, not max service.

My order of hopeful candidates:
Clinton > Obama > McCain >>>>>>> Huckabee


No, Clinton is not a Democrat. She's a communist. McCain and Obama are Democrat's

Please, explain...

[Breecher_7]

My $.02



And how?



The only thing Romney said that I agreed strongly with is that he is against same-sex marriage because he feels that children need both a mom and a dad.

Im not going to start a holy war here but who are you to judge people? Gay or straight, this is a free country, people should be able to do what they want with there personal and love lives. Children do not need a "mom and dad" they need two caring parents, straight or gay.

I like that Mccain stands in Iraq. I really feel that one should finish what they start. We already didn't finish the job once and look what happened.

This is not our war, have you been there? I have, several times. These people will fight forever regardless of us being there. In my oppinion this is another vietnam, we dont belong there. They are no REAL threat to us.

As for Illegals, bush didn't do much. It is very well known that corporations and businesses benefit from the illegals, which is why some say little has been done about it these past 7 years. There are two ways the US can benefit from the illegals: keep things the way they are so that buisness wins, or make them citizens so that the taxpayers win.

If they are gainfully employed, i say let them stay. If there unemployed and a drain on the economy, deport there asses.


My biggest concern this coming election is healthcare. I'm for national healthcare. It is not me that I am concerned about, but my friends who have held jobs for years yet still cannot afford to insure themselves.
Right now, the system is tuned for max profit, not max service.

I understand your compassion for your friends, but lets be realistic. If this system works so well then why do people from canada come here to have surgeries done? Because the waiting lists up there are so damn long. I pay taxes out the ass as it is and get squat in return, the last thing I want is to have to pay more taxes to support some f'n crackhead or someone that is to lazy to work. I know there are "good" people that it will bennifit and mabey im spoiled because i have free bennifits through the VA, but I didnt just get those for sitting on my ass. I am more against universal health care then I am illegal aliens, and everyone knows how much I hate illegals.

My order of hopeful candidates:
Clinton > Obama > McCain >>>>>>> Huckabee



Please, explain...

Oh and if Obama gets elected, im building a bomb shelter.

[Prince Valiant]

For evidence of clinton's communist/socialist ties, just look to her push for nationalized healthcare:

There will be some who'll have to pay exorbiant amounts for worse, less available care. There will be others who'll pay nothing for the essentially the same quality care available to to them now, and with no more availability of that care.

This is always the thing that galls me about debates of healthcare: The US currently insures their poor. Through state and federal programs out there, the people who truely can't afford coverage can get coverage (studies show that many don't take advantage of what's already available to them...so make sure your friends aren't in that catagory)

Most of the people who fall into the "uninsured" are uninsured not because the can't afford it, but because the [/i]won't[/i] afford it. This runs the gamut too....from young and healthy, but low on funds who would rather have the money they'd spend on healtcare coverage options on going to bars, buying better clothes, eating out, smoking weed, etc, etc....they take the chance. Then there are MANY individuals who make 80-140,000+ a year who, maybe they own their own business, or are an independant contractor, who'd rather not pony up 10-16,000/year to cover their family, as they'd rather put that kind of money elsewhere (there is one kid in particular I know who falls under this...family got burned when he tore his triceps tendon and they had to pony up for the surgery).

But the fact remains, is the BEST way to ensure coverage for the entire US isn't to revamp the best system in the world (don't get me started on that UN ranking of 37th or whatever :rolleyes: ), and marginalize it to the point where we are on par with the UK/canadia/france/etc...and seriously compromise the quality of care. No, simply focus on the individuals who aren't currently covered.

[Want_Notch]

Government Health Care....are you kidding me?

What has our government not turned into a total red tape mess?
THen once they provide your health care what's next? Then they can to you what you can/cannot eat. Then they can tell you that you need to exercise, how to do it when to do it. It just goes from there.

I want our Government to be smaller.

Hillary is a communist because of all her "social programs" to keep "everyone" level.
Government Health Care
Welfare
Higher Taxes (Do you really think the government knows how to spend your money better than you do?)
Social Programs
Lets treat everyone like equals.

The stupidest thing you can do is treat unequal people equal.

This is one reason I was hoping for Mitt to pull it out. We need a Social AND Fiscal CONSERVATIVE to put this country in the right direction again.

[Rocket Power]

The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'

[BlackViper]

take money from the rich and give it to the poor.....it will always be this way because there will always be less rich people.

I always thought you were supposed to be rewarded from hard work instead of penalized. The more successful you become the more money the government takes; and the more socialist we become the less success will mean. Why would you put in the work if your reward is the same as someone who doesn't! When will the government understand these basic fundamentals?
If our taxes go up anymore I wouldn't hesitate to scale back and lay off have a lot guys. Unemployment goes up and everybody suffers.

[Breecher_7]

take money from the rich and give it to the poor.....it will always be this way because there will always be less rich people.

I always thought you were supposed to be rewarded from hard work instead of penalized. The more successful you become the more money the government takes; and the more socialist we become the less success will mean. Why would you put in the work if your reward is the same as someone who doesn't! When will the government understand these basic fundamentals?
If our taxes go up anymore I wouldn't hesitate to scale back and lay off have a lot guys. Unemployment goes up and everybody suffers.

TRUTH!!!!

[VroomPshhTsi]

I was a fan of Edwards, he's out

I was a fan of Romney, he's out

god-f*cking-damnit

[Breecher_7]

All the candidates were assclowns. As long as obama doesnt get elected, i can deal with it.

[SSDude]

And how?



The only thing Romney said that I agreed strongly with is that he is against same-sex marriage because he feels that children need both a mom and a dad.

I like that Mccain stands in Iraq. I really feel that one should finish what they start. We already didn't finish the job once and look what happened.

As for Illegals, bush didn't do much. It is very well known that corporations and businesses benefit from the illegals, which is why some say little has been done about it these past 7 years. There are two ways the US can benefit from the illegals: keep things the way they are so that buisness wins, or make them citizens so that the taxpayers win.


My biggest concern this coming election is healthcare. I'm for national healthcare. It is not me that I am concerned about, but my friends who have held jobs for years yet still cannot afford to insure themselves.
Right now, the system is tuned for max profit, not max service.

My order of hopeful candidates:
Clinton > Obama > McCain >>>>>>> Huckabee



Please, explain...

Tell me again what you think of socialized medicin/National Health Care after you watch this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_Rf42zNl9U:fire

[Crawlin]

Most of the people who fall into the "uninsured" are uninsured not because the can't afford it, but because the won't afford it. This runs the gamut too....from young and healthy, but low on funds who would rather have the money they'd spend on healtcare coverage options on going to bars, buying better clothes, eating out, smoking weed, etc, etc....they take the chance.

BOOYAH, he shoots he scores.

I'll admit, I was one of those guys since a single male w/ no kids under 30 y/o was like $1000/month through dealership health insurance programs(owner has to get his piece of the pie on this too:rolleyes:)

It burned me once having to come up with the lump sum of what happened last year. I paid it off within the month, sold the camaro to replenish savings, and you move forward. I learned my lesson. I still have bills coming in from the monthly visits to make sure everything is in line, but now insurance pays for that crap. Didn't treat it as a pre-existing condition ;)

One guy here at Heiser, $92k last year and no insurance. Ran into a snowbank a couple weeks ago, barely any car damage, but a severe concussion from his head hitting the steering wheel. $5500 later he's pissed.

I think we are in bad shape heading for worse. I wouldn't expect another "BOOMING" economy for the next 10-15 years. At that point, it might be too late.

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

I am not for nationalized healthcare, especially for people who can afford it but choose not to buy it.
The only people who should qualify for free healthcare are the elderly and infirmed.

I am a no good, non educated, ex-criminal who's living paycheck to paycheck in the inner city and working as an unskilled factory worker and I have had good healthcare for the last 7 years at my job. Not a fancy Union Job either. If I can afford/earn/buy/get health insurance anyone can.
I also buy car insurance and I am not looking for a handout and will not be swayed by a candidate pandering a handout.

I am so sick of RINO's who talk a good game about being "conservative" untilit benefits them or their constituents, and will vote against the healthcare & handout candidate.
I do know I will be voting for Hillary in WI's open primary. I really hope she get's the nod as I think she is the easier one to beat.:D
And am warming up to McCain, hopefully he get's a really good running mate.

[jamest]

Anybody that is for national healthcare, can you honestly feel comfortable having the government handle your health? I am sure everyone here can attest to going to the DMV and waiting for a registration, license or some other government mandated document so you can drive on the road. Yet you are saying these same government bureaucrats are going to handle healthcare better than a private organization. In addition, with a national health care who is going to pay for it. If you thought shipping jobs overseas is bad now just wait for this. Finally, what is going to stop illegals from sucking up this "free" healthcare if it is passed. They aren't paying taxes, hell CA wanted to issue them driver's licenses.

[Karps TA]

Our choices this election are just so pathetic. I just can't believe these canidates are the best our country can come up with as our leader. It's just so disheartening.

Heck atleast last election I could vote against someone. This one, for what's left to choose from I couldn't in good conscious give any of them my vote.

And a Hillary vs McCain election would be my worst nightmare. Super evil no scruples ***** vs certified nutbag.

And Romney leaving doesn't make the choice any better or worse.

[nismodave]

Im so depressed.

What a joke.

[ND4SPD]

I am not for nationalized healthcare, especially for people who can afford it but choose not to buy it.
The only people who should qualify for free healthcare are the elderly and infirmed.

I am a no good, non educated, ex-criminal who's living paycheck to paycheck in the inner city and working as an unskilled factory worker and I have had good healthcare for the last 7 years at my job. Not a fancy Union Job either. If I can afford/earn/buy/get health insurance anyone can.
I also buy car insurance and I am not looking for a handout and will not be swayed by a candidate pandering a handout.

I am so sick of RINO's who talk a good game about being "conservative" untilit benefits them or their constituents, and will vote against the healthcare & handout candidate.
I do know I will be voting for Hillary in WI's open primary. I really hope she get's the nod as I think she is the easier one to beat.:D
And am warming up to McCain, hopefully he get's a really good running mate.

More likely than not, the Huckster will be McCain's running mate. It's fairly obvious those two have cut some sort of deal and if Huckabee isn't McCain's VP... he'll have a cabinet position at the very least. All things considered I'd almost rather Obama or Clinton be elected and screw up the country than have the Republican party take more heat for what McCain will obviously screw up.
As far as healthcare, the company my wife works for employs a lot of... well, shall we say underpriviledged from the surrounding ghetto. Anyway, the company offers a dirt cheap health insurance plan which, while it doesn't cover everything under the sun, covers enough catastrophic stuff to help prevent people from going into medical bankruptcy. Do these people take it? No, they'd rather have cash in hand so they can buy their XBOXes and 22" rims for their cars than have health insurance. Then they cry and moan and I'm supposed to feel sorry for them and support some form of socialized healthcare.

[70challenger452]

well, weather it be McCain, Obama or Clinton, in my eyes its a liberal winning. This sucks.

[07ROUSHSTG3]

one question i have that i cannot find an answer for is:

are there any TRUE conservatives left in the world, and where are they??

i mean, come on. Mccain!! what the hell are the TRUE conservatives supposed to do come november?? how much more can people expect us TRUE conservatives to compromise our beliefs and values to keep the more unconservative out of the white house. I have voted in every election since i turned 18, and that includes at the state and local levels as well. Never before have i thought of "throwing my vote away" more than i am now. "Super Tuesday" will go down IMO as the day the republican party died.

Someone asked earlier where Reagan was..............he is rolling in his grave right now.

[07ROUSHSTG3]

and one more thing.

voting should not be about who you think is going to win or lose come race day. voting should be about going into that booth and casting your vote for the person who you beleive will advance what you value and hold dear. people obviously have either forgotten that basic principle, or have forgotten what they beleive and value all together.

[Karps TA]

and one more thing.

voting should not be about who you think is going to win or lose come race day. voting should be about going into that booth and casting your vote for the person who you beleive will advance what you value and hold dear. people obviously have either forgotten that basic principle, or have forgotten what they beleive and value all together.

Or those running offer nothing towards their beliefs so you compromise and vote towards who will least hurt your own beliefs.

It's hard to put your vote behind people you wouldn't even want in your circle of friends much less running your country.

[STANMAN]

Can Mccain run as a Libertarian, and we can find some other Rebulican to put up, again, if there even ARE any more left??

[Karps TA]

He's no Libertarian. Don't even insult us Libertarians by saying that.

Besides Ron Paul will be the Libertarian nominee. He's a little nutty too, but the closest I am to agreeing with.

[ND4SPD]

I was all for Fred Thompson... he was the only true conservative that was running.

Rumor had it that McCain was going to jump ship (and switch parties) if he got shot down again (pardon the pun) in the primaries. I say GOOD RIDDANCE!

[pOrk]

If Hillary is in, we are ****ed. Obama has a better plan but NO experience.

[Al]

Anybody that is for national healthcare, can you honestly feel comfortable having the government handle your health? I am sure everyone here can attest to going to the DMV and waiting for a registration, license or some other government mandated document so you can drive on the road. Yet you are saying these same government bureaucrats are going to handle healthcare better than a private organization. In addition, with a national health care who is going to pay for it. If you thought shipping jobs overseas is bad now just wait for this. Finally, what is going to stop illegals from sucking up this "free" healthcare if it is passed. They aren't paying taxes, hell CA wanted to issue them driver's licenses.

Some of you seem so blind.

The government will not be taking care of your health,the doctors are the ones to do that.

Healthcare reform involves the insurance industry, not the hospitals and clinics. Insurance companies are designed to MAKE money, not bank it so that all proceeds pay back out, they keep some of it.

Hospitals already recieve loads of money for buildings and research. Dont forget that the best hospital in the state is heavily funded by the gov.

Who Trains Docotors??? UW! Yeah, a state-run school. Marquette and Yale too, but only after having government grants pay for half of the tuition.

MOST doctors that I have spoken to SUPPORT a national healthcare system. The problem is that for every doctor, there are 10 paper-pushers who might have their position eliminated with a government-run system.

How about this:
I am a senior medical biology undergraduate student. I want to do a senior research project that will aid the medical community as a whole. Who do I go to for a grant? Our good ol' Government.

BUT, if I make a major dicovery, the pharmaceutical coorporation that has sponsored 5% of the R&D cost will charge full price on the open market.


DMV comment: Wisconsin's system is messed up, but look at other states.
Some states have allowed private companies to run it. BUT, this works by the state searching for those who can provide the service as expected and also provide the lowest price. The result is a system that can function efficiently and also costs less to run.

Also consider that when roads are built here in the US, the contract usually (ala corruption) goes to whoever can promise the most work at the best price. Despite the low-price bidding, a hell of a lot of money exchanges hands.
^^^ If you don't want uncle Sam to take care of anything, vote libertarian.


Another hypothetical situation: The Heart Transplant
i hear this one all the time

YOu have two people, one is a late-middle aged man who has really good insurance, but has a bad heart. The other is a young man, who also needs a transplant, but does not have as good insurance. Now the older man is a glutton and lazy while the younger one is generally in good shape (one takes care of himself, the other does not). Who gets the only heart available.

The arguement goes: he who pays most for insurance, wins.

How reality works: the doctors refuse to give the heart to the glutton, claiming he will only mess it up like his first. They instead give the heart to the person who will put it to the most work and take care of it. There is a limited supply of hearts, so don't expect things to change


I come from a very conservative background, but I found one of my rationals in the Bible.
Luke 10: 25-37; The Good Samaritan.
I think it is wrong that some of you see others so lowly. it is true that health care is not a right, but it is our DUTY to take care of eachother. THink of the police, even if you are a past convicted felon, they will protect your rights when you need to be protected.


TAXES:
Yes, health care will make the rates go up, but in the end, most will save money because a large portion of their money will not be going to the insurance companies. Taxes go up 3,000 for someone making 150,000/year, but he saves 15,000/year before taxes.


BTW- I did NOT see the movie Sicko.

[Al]

I think we are in bad shape heading for worse. I wouldn't expect another "BOOMING" economy for the next 10-15 years. At that point, it might be too late.

The #1 reason the economy has been booming the past decade is because the US has sold its self out through outsourcing. Coorporations are making big money, but the class gap is widening and so is our Trade Deficit.


BOOYAH, he shoots he scores.

...in the wrong goal!

763.6 Billion Dollar Deficit...Booming Economy My Ass!

[lordairgtar]

This is true that the government will not be administering the National Health Care Program. Think, why are insurance companies slowly raising their rates across the board every October? This is to push popular opinion towards the National run program because...here it comes...wait for it...uh, yup...the Insurance Companies will be administering the plans, just like they do Medicare for the elderly pensioners. I pay $400 a month for my insurance plan, and that is a big chunk out of my pay. Just to let you guys know, I don't support government run health care. It's time for a revolution!

As to the comment earlier about same sex marriages, the premise that gays make lousy parents is wrong. Most of the news articles and stories I see about abuse to kids are from hetero parents. I was abused by a hetero parent. I got the whip scars on my ass to prove it. Please back up your statements with some facts.

[Prince Valiant]

Al, I don't know what doctors you talk too....but I'd say it is literally 6 doctors for Nationalized healthcare, vs every 94 privatized.

Why are less and less doctors accepting medicaid and medicare patients that don't have supplemental insurance? Boy...you'd think that they'd LOVE the gravy train of patients that provides!

But the fact is that through either system (which a nationalized program would be modeled after):
1. Pays pennies on the dollars compared to private insurance.
2. Dictates to the doctor what kind of treatments are available to the patient, whether it's the lastest, best treatment available or not.
3. The processing and compliance with medicare/medicaid rules are so complex, so buerucratic that thousand and thousands more staff are out there just to ensure complaince with the rules and to process claims (btw...expand this program requires TONS more paper pushers on both the govermental side AND the hospital side...AND private supplemental side that'll still exist in a nationalized system).

Now, you point out that the government is a large provider of grant money...and while they do pour billions into reasearch, by FAR the larger share comes from the private sector....people invest in new tools, techniques, drugs, etc why? So that they may see a return on their investment.

Now, there are literally a myriad of reasons why we pay more and more in premiums every year...here's a few:
1. We can treat FAR more diseases, use FAR greater technology to treat these diseases, and have MUCH better outcomes than we did...even just 15 years ago.
2. More and more the elderly who use up the lions share of medical services pay less and less to the hospitals and doctors. The ones left holding the bags are the younger populations that are still working and paying into a private system....basically, we are paying more for the elderly than the balance sheets show.
3. Countries like canada consistently leach off of us...here, we develop a new drug. Canada says "well, that's great...you are going to sell that drug with a 3% mark-up here". So in canada, drug companies don't get to profit off of their innovations...instead, they can profit in the ONLY country in the world that doesn't "control" drug prices...the US. And what if said drug company said to canadia "go F00k yourself!"? Canadia says, " That's fine...in two years we'll just steal your patents and produce the drugs ourselves...and you have no recouse." Put it this way....while we villify the drug companies, for every drug that is developed on government dime, the drug companies come out with hundreds of drugs...the innovation gap is that wide.
4. We have access, the like the rest of the world can't comprehend. Need a by-pass? The same day, you are on the table...in canada, it's an average of three weeks, of which 25% die waiting. Here's a CRITICAL life saving surgery that you could get in virtually any hospital throughout the US, whereas in canadia, you're stuck with a number no matter where you are.


Plus, when one observes how medical care is administered in other countries vs that of the US, people are shocked. Wait times? MUST be an exaggeration! Dennied for surgery? Not from a compassionate government run healthcare system!

What people don't understand is that to contain cost, these healthcare systems must limit service AND access. It's not uncommon to be told "NO" in these systems. Would I get an ACL repair at my age in canada? Most likely no...the few who perform this service do so for much younger patients that would recieve more benifit...sure, my number may come, but unlikely....as younger pt's would continue to harm themselves, and I'd just get older and less likely to need it. whereas here in the US, I can find literally 50 surgeons in milwaukee alone who could get me in within the week. Do I need an MRI? again, in canadia you'll wait....something that is not as severe like a torn ACL will wait months. I can call CDI and be in an open mri if I want tommorrow morning. People ***** that we pay too much, but the reality is IF any other country in the world offered AS much service, and AS much access, their cost would probably double ours.

And lordair...most insurance administered medicare plans are supplemental meaning the insuree pays a premium to get greater services, greater coverage, and greater access. Most who do so get coverage and access similar to that of a private insuree AND reimbursement rates are similar to that of private insurance, so providers will gladly see them.

[SSDude]

National Health Care My A$$

A Short Course in Brain Surgery

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_Rf42zNl9U

[70challenger452]

liberals have no idea what kind of unintended affects that socialized healthcare will have on the country, I'm strongly apposed to this

[Z28Roxy]

take money from the rich and give it to the poor.....it will always be this way because there will always be less rich people.

I always thought you were supposed to be rewarded from hard work instead of penalized. The more successful you become the more money the government takes; and the more socialist we become the less success will mean. Why would you put in the work if your reward is the same as someone who doesn't! When will the government understand these basic fundamentals?
If our taxes go up anymore I wouldn't hesitate to scale back and lay off have a lot guys. Unemployment goes up and everybody suffers.

Go ahead and try "living it up" in the ghetto and tell me you're just as well off. :rolf

[Karps TA]

The govt has never proven themselves to be able to control costs. They would make healthcare even more of a mess then it already is at twice the cost to us. I'm for less govt in my life, not more.

If you really think the poor and elderly can't afford health insurance. Take a trip to a local Indian casino and check out the majority of the people there. Buses of old people who will complain about their medication costs, but are willing to blow the SS check on slot machines.

[CannotPost]

Al, I don't know what doctors you talk too....but I'd say it is literally 6 doctors for Nationalized healthcare, vs every 94 privatized.

Why are less and less doctors accepting medicaid and medicare patients that don't have supplemental insurance? Boy...you'd think that they'd LOVE the gravy train of patients that provides!

But the fact is that through either system (which a nationalized program would be modeled after):
1. Pays pennies on the dollars compared to private insurance.
2. Dictates to the doctor what kind of treatments are available to the patient, whether it's the lastest, best treatment available or not.
3. The processing and compliance with medicare/medicaid rules are so complex, so buerucratic that thousand and thousands more staff are out there just to ensure complaince with the rules and to process claims (btw...expand this program requires TONS more paper pushers on both the govermental side AND the hospital side...AND private supplemental side that'll still exist in a nationalized system).

Now, you point out that the government is a large provider of grant money...and while they do pour billions into reasearch, by FAR the larger share comes from the private sector....people invest in new tools, techniques, drugs, etc why? So that they may see a return on their investment.

Now, there are literally a myriad of reasons why we pay more and more in premiums every year...here's a few:
1. We can treat FAR more diseases, use FAR greater technology to treat these diseases, and have MUCH better outcomes than we did...even just 15 years ago.
2. More and more the elderly who use up the lions share of medical services pay less and less to the hospitals and doctors. The ones left holding the bags are the younger populations that are still working and paying into a private system....basically, we are paying more for the elderly than the balance sheets show.
3. Countries like canada consistently leach off of us...here, we develop a new drug. Canada says "well, that's great...you are going to sell that drug with a 3% mark-up here". So in canada, drug companies don't get to profit off of their innovations...instead, they can profit in the ONLY country in the world that doesn't "control" drug prices...the US. And what if said drug company said to canadia "go F00k yourself!"? Canadia says, " That's fine...in two years we'll just steal your patents and produce the drugs ourselves...and you have no recouse." Put it this way....while we villify the drug companies, for every drug that is developed on government dime, the drug companies come out with hundreds of drugs...the innovation gap is that wide.
4. We have access, the like the rest of the world can't comprehend. Need a by-pass? The same day, you are on the table...in canada, it's an average of three weeks, of which 25% die waiting. Here's a CRITICAL life saving surgery that you could get in virtually any hospital throughout the US, whereas in canadia, you're stuck with a number no matter where you are.


Plus, when one observes how medical care is administered in other countries vs that of the US, people are shocked. Wait times? MUST be an exaggeration! Dennied for surgery? Not from a compassionate government run healthcare system!

What people don't understand is that to contain cost, these healthcare systems must limit service AND access. It's not uncommon to be told "NO" in these systems. Would I get an ACL repair at my age in canada? Most likely no...the few who perform this service do so for much younger patients that would recieve more benifit...sure, my number may come, but unlikely....as younger pt's would continue to harm themselves, and I'd just get older and less likely to need it. whereas here in the US, I can find literally 50 surgeons in milwaukee alone who could get me in within the week. Do I need an MRI? again, in canadia you'll wait....something that is not as severe like a torn ACL will wait months. I can call CDI and be in an open mri if I want tommorrow morning. People ***** that we pay too much, but the reality is IF any other country in the world offered AS much service, and AS much access, their cost would probably double ours.

And lordair...most insurance administered medicare plans are supplemental meaning the insuree pays a premium to get greater services, greater coverage, and greater access. Most who do so get coverage and access similar to that of a private insuree AND reimbursement rates are similar to that of private insurance, so providers will gladly see them.

I vote for you in the next election. :headbang

[BlackViper]

Go ahead and try "living it up" in the ghetto and tell me you're just as well off. :rolf

I did my whole life! I saw everyone around us...including us...use and abuse the system where I grew up in Oakland, Ca. Nobody gave shit and very few worked hard because they knew the government would take care of them. Free healthcare, free food, free clothes, and a free place to live with subsidized housing. It's a croc that I give 50% of the money that I work so hard to make to the government so they can support people who don't work. Is that really a democracy/free market? Certainly not a way to advance our civilization!

the entire system needs to be reformed!

[Z28Roxy]

I did my whole life! I saw everyone around us...including us...use and abuse the system where I grew up in Oakland, Ca. Nobody gave shit and very few worked hard because they knew the government would take care of them. Free healthcare, free food, free clothes, and a free place to live with subsidized housing. It's a croc that I give 50% of the money that I work so hard to make to the government so they can support people who don't work. Is that really a democracy/free market? Certainly not a way to advance our civilization!

the entire system needs to be reformed!

Missed my point entirely.

[WickedSix]

He's no Libertarian. Don't even insult us Libertarians by saying that.


bravo :thumbsup not even close to a libertarian

[ND4SPD]

Go ahead and try "living it up" in the ghetto and tell me you're just as well off. :rolf

Well the people in the ghetto need to start realizing that maybe putting money into getting OUT of the ghetto would be a better use of their disposable income than the ridiculous things they spend their money on. I have been on EMS calls in the Madison ghettos at more than one Section-8 housing complex where these people have more fancy electronics than I do. Plasma screens, two or more game consoles, huge stereo setups, etc... Yet, they're receiving food stamps, rent assistance, Badgercare... on practically every form of government assistance available. (And they sure as hell aren't paying for their ambulance ride down to the hospital). Granted, yes there are plenty of people that are in dire need of the programs I just mentioned. But the afore mentioned situation is absolutely unacceptable and I have no sympathy for people like that. They are making a conscious choice on what they are spending their money on.

As far as nationalized healthcare... the healthcare systems of England and (I think) Australia are so overburdened that the doctors are requesting legislation to allow them to refuse certain treatments to people who are smokers, elderly, etc...

It's unfortunate that we're going to have to make the same mistakes as every other country that's tried it before people see that nationalized healthcare is not going to turn out to be the wonderful utopian thing they believe it will be.

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

Well the people in the ghetto need to start realizing that maybe putting money into getting OUT of the ghetto would be a better use of their disposable income than the ridiculous things they spend their money on.

Yes Massa !:rolf

[Karps TA]

Well the people in the ghetto need to start realizing that maybe putting money into getting OUT of the ghetto would be a better use of their disposable income than the ridiculous things they spend their money on.


The hell with that. Then they'll just come out to the burbs and screw things up for us. Then I get stuck with a 4 hour drive to work to move away from them.

Keep them in the ghetto. Build a big wall around it. Let anarchy rule. lol

[BlackViper]

The hell with that. Then they'll just come out to the burbs and screw things up for us. Then I get stuck with a 4 hour drive to work to move away from them.

Keep them in the ghetto. Build a big wall around it. Let anarchy rule. lol

this otta be interesting.....

[BlackViper]

Missed my point entirely.

and you missed mine.... the way it is now you have to make 30k a year before you would live a better life than not working at all. Might as well sit home and live off the gov. cuz they let it happen. Then for every dollar you make above that the gov. takes a bigger cut....

I'm pissed that with all the taxes I pay I don't even get a ****in dime of stimulus package yet people who didn't pay AT ALL get money!!!!!! How ****ed is that????

[VroomPshhTsi]

*off-topic*

blackviper - why the hell do u let snow touch your viper?

[Z28Roxy]

and you missed mine.... the way it is now you have to make 30k a year before you would live a better life than not working at all. Might as well sit home and live off the gov. cuz they let it happen. Then for every dollar you make above that the gov. takes a bigger cut....

I'm pissed that with all the taxes I pay I don't even get a ****in dime of stimulus package yet people who didn't pay AT ALL get money!!!!!! How ****ed is that????

I'm VERY WELL aware of your point. Are you aware of mine?

[Z28Roxy]

Well the people in the ghetto need to start realizing that maybe putting money into getting OUT of the ghetto would be a better use of their disposable income than the ridiculous things they spend their money on. I have been on EMS calls in the Madison ghettos at more than one Section-8 housing complex where these people have more fancy electronics than I do. Plasma screens, two or more game consoles, huge stereo setups, etc... Yet, they're receiving food stamps, rent assistance, Badgercare... on practically every form of government assistance available. (And they sure as hell aren't paying for their ambulance ride down to the hospital). Granted, yes there are plenty of people that are in dire need of the programs I just mentioned. But the afore mentioned situation is absolutely unacceptable and I have no sympathy for people like that. They are making a conscious choice on what they are spending their money on.

As far as nationalized healthcare... the healthcare systems of England and (I think) Australia are so overburdened that the doctors are requesting legislation to allow them to refuse certain treatments to people who are smokers, elderly, etc...

It's unfortunate that we're going to have to make the same mistakes as every other country that's tried it before people see that nationalized healthcare is not going to turn out to be the wonderful utopian thing they believe it will be.

So teach them what a better use of what their money would be. This is a complete failure of society as a whole (ghetto dwellers for wasting their money on stupid crap, and us tax payers for not teaching them how to get out of poverty).

You have to understand their mindset; they think that one more game console, one more beer, etc won't make a difference they'll always be poor (do you think they LIKE living in those shitholes? They don't) whether they're receiving assistance or not (many are not). Don't just rant a bunch of crap on a message board they don't even read, let's actually have welfare reform in Madison and Washington, about what they shouldn't be spending their (and/or OUR) money on. Yacking isn't going to solve anything.

I don't know I'm sure this post is just crazy, someone will come on and blame liberals, illegal aliens, or Al Sharpton rather than agreeing or proposing something should actually be done. :chair:

[Prince Valiant]

So teach them what a better use of what their money would be. This is a complete failure of society as a whole 1) There are already plenty of tools available for anyone to learn how to better manage their money no matter their income and 2) It's not neccessarily society's obligation to force them to learn it if they aren't already trying...

[Z28Roxy]

2) It's not neccessarily society's obligation to force them to learn it if they aren't already trying...

Obligation? No. But it's more productive than bitching.


1) There are already plenty of tools available for anyone to learn how to better manage their money no matter their income and


Completely true but also completely misleading. You need to step outside your own perspective here. When someone is raised in the ghetto for 18 years and taught by everyone around them that welfare, drug dealing, other crime, and Mcjobs are the only future for them you can't just expect them at 18 years old to say "hmmmmm maybe to succeed I'll go to the local college, get a Pell Grant and Stafford Loan to afford it and also make some networking connections so that I can get a successful career after I graduate."

Sure, you can blame them for not taking advantage of the help that's out there. But you can't expect them to know about it and take it.

The poverty class, middle class, and upper class all have different hidden rules about what their children are taught about life in general (which includes money/careers).

[juicedimpss]

maybe if they would go to school and pay attention to the teachers rather than trying to shoot each other they would realize the options available to them.

[Karps TA]

I would agree with you Roxy IF no one ever escaped from the ghetto and made it. But plenty of them do, so the difference is obviously pure laziness.

[Z28Roxy]

I would agree with you Roxy IF no one ever escaped from the ghetto and made it. But plenty of them do, so the difference is obviously pure laziness.

It's not laziness or hard work, those who escape due it because they are taught (either by a teacher or someone of the middle or upper class) what it takes to get out of the ghetto.

Come on guys, if it was all about effort why aren't you ****ers all as rich as Bill Gates?

[lit666]

So teach them what a better use of what their money would be. This is a complete failure of society as a whole (ghetto dwellers for wasting their money on stupid crap, and us tax payers for not teaching them how to get out of poverty).

You have to understand their mindset; they think that one more game console, one more beer, etc won't make a difference they'll always be poor (do you think they LIKE living in those shitholes? They don't) whether they're receiving assistance or not (many are not). Don't just rant a bunch of crap on a message board they don't even read, let's actually have welfare reform in Madison and Washington, about what they shouldn't be spending their (and/or OUR) money on. Yacking isn't going to solve anything.

I don't know I'm sure this post is just crazy, someone will come on and blame liberals, illegal aliens, or Al Sharpton rather than agreeing or proposing something should actually be done. :chair:

The ghetto dwellers don't want to learn because they are LAZY!!!!! It's not that they don't like living in those shit holes it's that they DON'T care. Most of them are receiving assistance because they are to lazy to get ahead and work themselves out of the ghetto. People dont' change, lazy people will always be lazy and assertive people will always be assertive. If people don't want to help themselves then you can't force them to. Coming up with solutions is a waste of time and a liberal way to sugar coat crap. :chair:

[Want_Notch]

Sure, you can blame them for not taking advantage of the help that's out there. But you can't expect them to know about it and take it.

That's not true. We can expect them to know about what's avaliable to them. It's not our (middle class and up) fault that most people in the ghetto are to caught up living the "ghetto fab" lifestyle.

Milwaukee Public Schools have a %50+ drop out rate. Is that their fault? Of fricking course it is their fault.

[juicedimpss]

lazy people will always be lazy and assertive people will always be assertive. If people don't want to help themselves then you can't force them to. Coming up with solutions is a waste of time and a liberal way to sugar coat crap. :chair:

:thumbsup
AMEN

[Z28Roxy]

The ghetto dwellers don't want to learn because they are LAZY!!!!! It's not that they don't like living in those shit holes it's that they DON'T care. Most of them are receiving assistance because they are to lazy to get ahead and work themselves out of the ghetto. People dont' change, lazy people will always be lazy and assertive people will always be assertive. If people don't want to help themselves then you can't force them to. Coming up with solutions is a waste of time and a liberal way to sugar coat crap. :chair:

Again, I repeat. Why aren't you as rich as Bill Gates then?

[Want_Notch]

Come on guys, if it was all about effort why aren't you ****ers all as rich as Bill Gates?

I am Bill Gates..........

[lit666]

Again, I repeat. Why aren't you as rich as Bill Gates then?


I'm lazy, I'm just not as lazy of the ghetto dwellars. I also care about how I live though also. You can't compair anyone on here to Bill Gates either. Some people are just smarter then others. I'm not a rocket scientist but I'm not dumb either. So I make the not so dumb but lazy enuff not to push myself salary.

[Z28Roxy]

I'm lazy, I'm just not as lazy of the ghetto dwellars.

RIIIIIIIIGHHHHT.

So if we were to enumerate every single person in order of hard workingness it would be the same order as if we were to enumerate every single person in order of wealth?

In simpler terms, the richest person works harder than every single person in the country and the poorest person works less than every single person in the country?

[ND4SPD]

So teach them what a better use of what their money would be. This is a complete failure of society as a whole (ghetto dwellers for wasting their money on stupid crap, and us tax payers for not teaching them how to get out of poverty).

You have to understand their mindset; they think that one more game console, one more beer, etc won't make a difference they'll always be poor (do you think they LIKE living in those shitholes? They don't) whether they're receiving assistance or not (many are not). Don't just rant a bunch of crap on a message board they don't even read, let's actually have welfare reform in Madison and Washington, about what they shouldn't be spending their (and/or OUR) money on. Yacking isn't going to solve anything.

I don't know I'm sure this post is just crazy, someone will come on and blame liberals, illegal aliens, or Al Sharpton rather than agreeing or proposing something should actually be done. :chair:

Unfortunately this is such a multifaceted problem, that it's tough to attack it from any one angle. The public school system can take care of the education you are referring to. But, these kids need to stay in school long enough to learn this stuff. That means that the city needs to come down HARD on the gang element in this city. That means severe penalty enhancers for gang members. The young impressionable youth of cities like Milwaukee need to be shown that gang affiliation is a DEAD END STREET! This midnight basketball BS isn't working. The only way this is going to get fixed is if there is a change at the cultural level. Educating isn't going to work if they're not receptive to that education. This popping out kids for welfare benefits also needs to stop. I went on a call the other night for a 25 y/o single mother with a migrane that had 6 children, the oldest of which was 9! WTF!? I can understand an "oops" pregnancy or two... but 6!?

Let me also relate another story to you. About five or six years ago, the City of Madison bought up, knocked down, and rebuilt and renovated one of the worst ghettos in the city. They built these beautiful multi-unit (almost townhouse) style apartments for section-8 renters. They basically gave the places away to people that couldn't afford "decent" homes or afford to rent elsewhere. I end up working in that part of town for a few shifts and of course go on several calls in those buildings. What do you think I find? The places are TRASHED on the inside. Here these people have been given homes that I was envious of at the time and not only do they not take care of the properties, but they actually trash the places!

Yaking may not do anything to directly change the situation, but damn it it makes me feel better and I think people need to be aware of what the REAL story is. I so often hear about how the poor and underpriviledged have it soooo bad off... and then day in and day out I see shit like this. Electing people to office who are just going to expand these entitlements without fixing the root causes is just moronic and is a complete and total waste of taxpayer dollars.

[Z28Roxy]

Unfortunately this is such a multifaceted problem, that it's tough to attack it from any one angle. The public school system can take care of the education you are referring to. But, these kids need to stay in school long enough to learn this stuff. That means that the city needs to come down HARD on the gang element in this city. That means severe penalty enhancers for gang members. The young impressionable youth of cities like Milwaukee need to be shown that gang affiliation is a DEAD END STREET! This midnight basketball BS isn't working. The only way this is going to get fixed is if there is a change at the cultural level. Educating isn't going to work if they're not receptive to that education. This popping out kids for welfare benefits also needs to stop. I went on a call the other night for a 25 y/o single mother with a migrane that had 6 children, the oldest of which was 9! WTF!? I can understand an "oops" pregnancy or two... but 6!?

Let me also relate another story to you. About five or six years ago, the City of Madison bought up, knocked down, and rebuilt and renovated one of the worst ghettos in the city. They built these beautiful multi-unit (almost townhouse) style apartments for section-8 renters. They basically gave the places away to people that couldn't afford "decent" homes or afford to rent elsewhere. I end up working in that part of town for a few shifts and of course go on several calls in those buildings. What do you think I find? The places are TRASHED on the inside. Here these people have been given homes that I was envious of at the time and not only do they not take care of the properties, but they actually trash the places!

Yaking may not do anything to directly change the situation, but damn it it makes me feel better and I think people need to be aware of what the REAL story is. I so often hear about how the poor and underpriviledged have it soooo bad off... and then day in and day out I see shit like this. Electing people to office who are just going to expand these entitlements without fixing the root causes is just moronic and is a complete and total waste of taxpayer dollars.

Agreed, there is far too much pandering and not enough real solutions in politics. Which is what I was actually saying.

[lit666]

RIIIIIIIIGHHHHT.

So if we were to enumerate every single person in order of hard workingness it would be the same order as if we were to enumerate every single person in order of wealth?

In simpler terms, the richest person works harder than every single person in the country and the poorest person works less than every single person in the country?


read my edit: sorry

[Karps TA]

It's not laziness or hard work, those who escape due it because they are taught (either by a teacher or someone of the middle or upper class) what it takes to get out of the ghetto.

Come on guys, if it was all about effort why aren't you ****ers all as rich as Bill Gates?


Cause I do just fine without putting much effort into it?

My parents weren't rich, we lived in a crappy part of Milwaukee. But my folks busted their asses and got me out of there and into the suburbs. They didn't get any help, they refused what little was offered. They did it on their own, by both working 2 jobs.

It's all about what you're willing to do yourself to ake your life better. And unfortuantely there's a large sector of people who think it's all about what other do for them to make their life better.

These same people complain that the police never help them. But when the police come to investigate a crime, they refuse to talk to the police. They prefer to rely on excuses on why they can't, instead of reasons why they can.

[ND4SPD]

Speaking of pandering... don't even get me started on the pandering to illegals that's been going on lately.:fire

[lit666]

Agreed, there is far too much pandering and not enough real solutions in politics. Which is what I was actually saying.

there is no point in coming up with a solution, it is what it is. Ghetto dwellars are lazy and when giving a golden egg as so stated they break the egg and fry up they yoke.

[Prince Valiant]

"hmmmmm maybe to succeed I'll go to the local college, get a Pell Grant and Stafford Loan to afford it and also make some networking connections so that I can get a successful career after I graduate.". It doesn't neccessarily take that to suceed though...try:
1. Getting a job...even IF it's a "Mcjob"
2. Showing up for work as a matter of habit.
3. Working hard.
4. Keeping in mind who you are working for...not anyone but yourself. If you find a better opportunity, take it. The more employment history you can show, the greater the likelyhood of getting a better job becomes.
5. Don't engage in costly behaviors...ie drugs, excessive drinking both can create barriers to gainful employment. Promescuity can lead to more hungry mouths to feed.
6. Stable relationships DO benifit...hell, two people making a mere 18,000/ year ($8/hour) together can easily afford a house. Not only that, they give great role models for your kids to learn and model from.
7. Accept the limitations of your salary...don't live on more than you make, scrimp and save as much as you can.
8. Gaining wealth takes time

If you simply do the first 4, you'll do pretty decent in life...and those lessons shouldn't have to be taught, they are pretty common sense.

include the last 4, it's not that difficult to find yourself very solidly middle-class sitting pretty financially within 20 years.


Now, I wouldn't say it's a bad to go out and teach people the secret to sucess, or that there aren't people who need to learn this stuff...I'm just saying that if YOU think it should be done, then no one is stopping YOU from doing it. Why be generous with other people time and money? Because that is what gov't is...go out and do it yourself, and other like-minded individuals, and quit blaming society for inaction.

[Z28Roxy]

It's all about what you're willing to do yourself to ake your life better. And unfortuantely there's a large sector of people who think it's all about what other do for them to make their life better.


There have been a multitude of scientific studies that show this is completely false, but if I can't convince you I can't convince you.


there is no point in coming up with a solution, it is what it is. Ghetto dwellars are lazy and when giving a golden egg as so stated they break the egg and fry up they yoke.

Then keep bitching about it every paycheck and see if I really care.

[Z28Roxy]

It doesn't neccessarily take that to suceed though...try:
1. Getting a job...even IF it's a "Mcjob"
2. Showing up for work as a matter of habit.
3. Working hard.
4. Keeping in mind who you are working for...not anyone but yourself. If you find a better opportunity, take it. The more employment history you can show, the greater the likelyhood of getting a better job becomes.
5. Don't engage in costly behaviors...ie drugs, excessive drinking both can create barriers to gainful employment. Promescuity can lead to more hungry mouths to feed.
6. Stable relationships DO benifit...hell, two people making a mere 18,000/ year ($8/hour) together can easily afford a house. Not only that, they give great role models for your kids to learn and model from.
7. Accept the limitations of your salary...don't live on more than you make, scrimp and save as much as you can.
8. Gaining wealth takes time

If you simply do the first 4, you'll do pretty decent in life...and those lessons shouldn't have to be taught, they are pretty common sense.

include the last 4, it's not that difficult to find yourself very solidly middle-class sitting pretty financially within 20 years.


All true but they still don't really know that, I can guarantee you of that fact. How many ghetto / inner city schools have you been in? I don't know if I'm been in truly ghetto/inner city ones, but I've been in plenty in Racine and Kenosha with a lot of kids whose parents are on assistance, live in homeless shelters, blah blah blah.



Now, I wouldn't say it's a bad to go out and teach people the secret to sucess, or that there aren't people who need to learn this stuff...I'm just saying that if YOU think it should be done, then no one is stopping YOU from doing it. Why be generous with other people time and money? Because that is what gov't is...go out and do it yourself, and other like-minded individuals, and quit blaming society for inaction.

I am in school to be a teacher - you do know that right?

All I'm saying is that there is more than meets the eye (that the secret to success has to be taught, and you just said it / contradicted yourself right there).

[lit666]

Then keep bitching about it every paycheck and see if I really care.

it's an easy fix. Stop all assistance period, enable the death penalty and don't fight it. Sooner or later we will weed out what isn't needed.

[Prince Valiant]

(that the secret to success has to be taught, and you just said it / contradicted yourself right there).I did NOT contradict myself. I said that 1) Your formula for sucess is way off base and implies luck rather than hard work and 2) it is NOT society's responsibility nor obligation to teach it to those who refuse to learn it on their own. No contradictions there.

trust me...I know more than a few teachers befuddled by logic :goof

[Z28Roxy]

it's an easy fix. Stop all assistance period, enable the death penalty and don't fight it. Sooner or later we will weed out what isn't needed.

You know how much you'll have to pay cops and judges to deal with that shit? :rolf

Oh boy, way to kill a fly with a sledgehammer (to fix a drain on the economy by throwing 100x more money at the problem).

[Z28Roxy]

I did NOT contradict myself.



If you simply do the first 4, you'll do pretty decent in life...and those lessons shouldn't have to be taught, they are pretty common sense.




Now, I wouldn't say it's a bad to go out and teach people the secret to sucess, or that there aren't people who need to learn this stuff...I'm just saying that if YOU think it should be done, then no one is stopping YOU from doing it. Why be generous with other people time and money? Because that is what gov't is...go out and do it yourself, and other like-minded individuals, and quit blaming society for inaction.

Contradiction. QED. Don't argue logic with a math major.

[Breecher_7]

:thumbsup
it's an easy fix. Stop all assistance period, enable the death penalty and don't fight it. Sooner or later we will weed out what isn't needed.


I like this idea, id be totally onboard with this one. You have my vote sir...

[lit666]

You know how much you'll have to pay cops and judges to deal with that shit? :rolf

Oh boy, way to kill a fly with a sledgehammer (to fix a drain on the economy by throwing 100x more money at the problem).

hence why I said don't fight it. Make it easy to throw the switch. besides, I'd rather pay hard working people for a job well done then dead beats to sit and watch Jerry Springer.

[lit666]

You know how much you'll have to pay cops and judges to deal with that shit? :rolf

Oh boy, way to kill a fly with a sledgehammer (to fix a drain on the economy by throwing 100x more money at the problem).

Do you really have a clue how much a drain on society these people are? I mean seriously do you have a clue?

[Z28Roxy]

Do you really have a clue how much a drain on society these people are? I mean seriously do you have a clue?

Post up some numbers big guy :thumbsup

[Breecher_7]

If she did she would not be arguing with you....

[Z28Roxy]

If she did she would not be arguing with you....

If he knew he would post up the numbers.

[Breecher_7]

You want numbers, take a look at what it costs to incarcerate one inmate at a federal or state prison for 1 year. Then look at how many are serving 20+ year sentences and tell me they are not a drain on the economy. For all i care you can take every low life, willingly unemployed, crack head scumbag and execute there asses. They do nothing for the rest of us but suck up money.

[Z28Roxy]

You want numbers, take a look at what it costs to incarcerate one inmate at a federal or state prison for 1 year. Then look at how many are serving 20+ year sentences and tell me they are not a drain on the economy. For all i care you can take every low life, willingly unemployed, crack head scumbag and execute there asses. They do nothing for the rest of us but suck up money.

Uh, look how much it costs to execute someone?

Anyway I thought we were talking more about welfare, but if we're talking about prison I can play that game too.

Are you willing to have innocent people killed under such a system? Are you willing to be that person?

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

Damn I can tell y'all are ready for a black prez. :D
Watch for a record number of voter's from da ghetto hoodz this year.

[Karps TA]

Kill em all. Let god sort them out.

[Breecher_7]

You dont want to go here with me....

Ive been that person, ive been the judge, the jury and the executioner. Its called WAR.
You think it is easy for me to live my life knowing that ive killed innocent people? It bothers me every single day, but it is what it is. In the end, god will sort them out.

And the cost to exectue someone, yes, im aware of it. But there are much cheaper meathods...

So yeah, ill bite. I am willing to be that person.

BTW, youve just opened a box of shit you didnt want.

[Z28Roxy]

You dont want to go here with me....

Ive been that person, ive been the judge, the jury and the executioner. Its called WAR.
You think it is easy for me to live my life knowing that ive killed innocent people? It bothers me every single day, but it is what it is. In the end, god will sort them out.

And the cost to exectue someone, yes, im aware of it. But there are much cheaper meathods...

So yeah, ill bite. I am willing to be that person.

BTW, youve just opened a box of shit you didnt want.

So you're willing to be wrongly convicted and executed by the state because it might save taxpayer money?

If you are, then I applaud you.

[Breecher_7]

If I was sitting in prison for life, doing nothing but my life but smoking crack and living on the street, or turning to a life of crime. You bet your ass.

Why should we pay for people like that? Give me ONE good reason.

[Want_Notch]

How much does one bullet cost? THe execution is not expensive. The burocartic bullshit surrounding and execution is.

[Z28Roxy]

If I was sitting in prison for life, doing nothing but my life but smoking crack and living on the street, or turning to a life of crime. You bet your ass.

Why should we pay for people like that? Give me ONE good reason.

That's not what I said.

Given the death penalty, someone will eventually be wrongly convicted and executed. If you streamline the process and make the death penalty for more crimes, there will be even more wrongly convicted and executed.

Are you willing to break some eggs to make an omelet or not?

[lit666]

I should have been more clear on the whole death penalty thing. Eliminating assistance will cause the lazy ghetto dwellers to commite criminal acts. Enabling the death penalty, lowing the cost of it to a price of a 57 slug and $15.00 hr for the guy to pull the trigger is a hell of alot less then paying for someone for a lifetime.

[Breecher_7]

That's not what I said.

Given the death penalty, someone will eventually be wrongly convicted and executed. If you streamline the process and make the death penalty for more crimes, there will be even more wrongly convicted and executed.

Are you willing to break some eggs to make an omelet or not?


You bet your ass. Like I said, Ive been there and Ive had to make some horrible decisions in the past. In the end god will sort out the good from the evil.

[Z28Roxy]

You bet your ass. Like I said, Ive been there and Ive had to make some horrible decisions in the past. In the end god will sort out the good from the evil.

Even if said person is YOU? Your wife? Your child?

I'm talking about completely wrongly convicted here.

Again if so I applaud you, you have the balls most death penalty supporters don't.

[Al]

Al, I don't know what doctors you talk too....but I'd say it is literally 6 doctors for Nationalized healthcare, vs every 94 privatized.

Why are less and less doctors accepting medicaid and medicare patients that don't have supplemental insurance? Boy...you'd think that they'd LOVE the gravy train of patients that provides!

The system is not currently funed %100, hence the difference in amount paid vs amount billed.




But the fact is that through either system (which a nationalized program would be modeled after):
1. Pays pennies on the dollars compared to private insurance.
2. Dictates to the doctor what kind of treatments are available to the patient, whether it's the lastest, best treatment available or not.
3. The processing and compliance with medicare/medicaid rules are so complex, so buerucratic that thousand and thousands more staff are out there just to ensure complaince with the rules and to process claims (btw...expand this program requires TONS more paper pushers on both the govermental side AND the hospital side...AND private supplemental side that'll still exist in a nationalized system).


1. Out of Context. They only offer so much because they expect the service provider to pick up the difference or bill it to the patient.
2. Kinda True, but wrong on their part. ie: system pays for dental cleaning, but not fluoride treatment. In reality, $20 fluoride treatment is true investment.
3. Paper pushers are required do to a lack of coordination and common terminology. The system is a mess right now. There are other systems outside of the US that are much more efficient. Lets model after them, seeing that ours performs so poorly.




Now, you point out that the government is a large provider of grant money...and while they do pour billions into reasearch, by FAR the larger share comes from the private sector....people invest in new tools, techniques, drugs, etc why? So that they may see a return on their investment.

Now, there are literally a myriad of reasons why we pay more and more in premiums every year...here's a few:
1. We can treat FAR more diseases, use FAR greater technology to treat these diseases, and have MUCH better outcomes than we did...even just 15 years ago.
2. More and more the elderly who use up the lions share of medical services pay less and less to the hospitals and doctors. The ones left holding the bags are the younger populations that are still working and paying into a private system....basically, we are paying more for the elderly than the balance sheets show.
3. Countries like canada consistently leach off of us...here, we develop a new drug. Canada says "well, that's great...you are going to sell that drug with a 3% mark-up here". So in canada, drug companies don't get to profit off of their innovations...instead, they can profit in the ONLY country in the world that doesn't "control" drug prices...the US. And what if said drug company said to canadia "go F00k yourself!"? Canadia says, " That's fine...in two years we'll just steal your patents and produce the drugs ourselves...and you have no recouse." Put it this way....while we villify the drug companies, for every drug that is developed on government dime, the drug companies come out with hundreds of drugs...the innovation gap is that wide.
4. We have access, the like the rest of the world can't comprehend. Need a by-pass? The same day, you are on the table...in canada, it's an average of three weeks, of which 25% die waiting. Here's a CRITICAL life saving surgery that you could get in virtually any hospital throughout the US, whereas in canadia, you're stuck with a number no matter where you are.



1. Yes, there are more treatable diseases, but the efficiency is much higher.
Then again, hospitals have major issues with nosocomial infections lately. Also consider that diseases are mutating due to improper use of medications. ie: pennicilin and other antibiotics. I should not have to go into detail about what happens when people stop taking their rx when they feel better and store their extra antibiotics in the medicine cabinet (save some $ next time).

2. This part will only get worse, look for baby-boomers retiring.

3. What makes the Canadian Rx drug program inexpensive is that it buys in bulk. Manufacturers do profit from the sales when it leaves the factory, but not at the counter (double markup). Yes, Rx patents are short lived. It is an open market after that, but i will agree with you on that.

4. Our healthcare system can handle covering an additional %12.5 (assuming the uninsured never set foot in a hospital). In fact, it already handles them. The problem is with billing, not the service provided. Our hospitals can already handle the entire US population + illegals.




Plus, when one observes how medical care is administered in other countries vs that of the US, people are shocked. Wait times? MUST be an exaggeration! Dennied for surgery? Not from a compassionate government run healthcare system!

What people don't understand is that to contain cost, these healthcare systems must limit service AND access. It's not uncommon to be told "NO" in these systems. Would I get an ACL repair at my age in canada? Most likely no...the few who perform this service do so for much younger patients that would recieve more benifit...sure, my number may come, but unlikely....as younger pt's would continue to harm themselves, and I'd just get older and less likely to need it. whereas here in the US, I can find literally 50 surgeons in milwaukee alone who could get me in within the week. Do I need an MRI? again, in canadia you'll wait....something that is not as severe like a torn ACL will wait months. I can call CDI and be in an open mri if I want tommorrow morning. People ***** that we pay too much, but the reality is IF any other country in the world offered AS much service, and AS much access, their cost would probably double ours.


Are you saying that they cannot handle this if national healthcare starts up?




And lordair...most insurance administered medicare plans are supplemental meaning the insuree pays a premium to get greater services, greater coverage, and greater access. Most who do so get coverage and access similar to that of a private insuree AND reimbursement rates are similar to that of private insurance, so providers will gladly see them.


The Key difference between the US and Canada is the the US system can already handle the whole population of the country. Canada made a mistake by not having the infrastructure to support the whole population of the country. BUT, before that, the Canadian healthcare system was in shambles and nothing like it is today. What we are seeing today in Canada is a healthcare system that is growing remarkably fast.

Our system is strong and has the capacity. What is at stake here is the insurance provider system, not the service sector.

Have a link: http://www.pnhp.org/


Our health care system is failing. Tens of millions of people are uninsured, costs are skyrocketing, and the bureaucracy is expanding. Patchwork reforms succeed only in exchanging old problems for new ones. It is time for basic change in American medicine. We propose a national health program that would (1) fully cover everyone under a single, comprehensive public insurance program; (2) pay hospitals and nursing homes a total (global) annual amount to cover all operating expenses; (3) fund capital costs through separate appropriations; (4) pay for physiciansÕ services and ambulatory services in any of three ways: through fee-for-service payments with a simplified fee schedule and mandatory acceptance of the national health program payment as the total payment for a service or procedure (assignment), through global budgets for hospitals and clinics employing salaried physicians, or on a per capital basis (capitation); (5) be funded, at least initially, from the same sources as at present, but with payments disbursed from a single pool; and (6) contain costs through savings on billing and bureaucracy, improved health planning, and the ability of the national health program, as the single payer for services to establish overall spending limits. Through this proposal, we hope to provide a pragmatic framework for public debate of fundamental health-policy reform. (N Engl J Med 1989; 320: 102-8.)

[6forwardgears]

Don't let your feathers get too ruffled by Breecher, Roxy. He just loves to be the dissenting voice.

[Breecher_7]

Even if said person is YOU? Your wife? Your child?

I'm talking about completely wrongly convicted here.

Again if so I applaud you, you have the balls most death penalty supporters don't.


I have killed innocent Wives, husbands, and Children. They were guilty of nothing but being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Do I hope that there deaths will bring somthing good to the lives of others, in the grand scheme of things I sure as hell hope so or they died for nothing.

Life isnt fair. The world is not civil. I think you need to open your eyes, stop looking at things as right and wrong and see that there can be good outcomes to what may seem to be horrible things.

[Al]

The govt has never proven themselves to be able to control costs. They would make healthcare even more of a mess then it already is at twice the cost to us. I'm for less govt in my life, not more.

If you really think the poor and elderly can't afford health insurance. Take a trip to a local Indian casino and check out the majority of the people there. Buses of old people who will complain about their medication costs, but are willing to blow the SS check on slot machines.

In every industrialized nation that a national healthcare system has been improvised, the overall cost has gone down sustancially.

Are you saying that the US will be the exception?

[Breecher_7]

Don't let your feathers get too ruffled by Breecher, Roxy. He just loves to be the dissenting voice.

I really dont need your shit right now. This is actually a very touchy subject for me. :stare

[6forwardgears]

I really dont need your shit right now. This is actually a very touchy subject for me. :stare

Uhhh, you're the one that went off on a crazy Vietnam Vet style rant about killing innocent women and children.

edit: Not trying to say anything about you or anything you've done, just saying it seemed kind of out of place given what the topic started out as.

[Breecher_7]

Uhhh, you're the one that went off on a crazy Vietnam Vet style rant about killing innocent women and children.

Im just getting my point across about having been in that situation so I can relate to the issue at hand. Innocent people die, its life.

[Z28Roxy]

I have killed innocent Wives, husbands, and Children. They were guilty of nothing but being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Do I hope that there deaths will bring somthing good to the lives of others, in the grand scheme of things I sure as hell hope so or they died for nothing.

Life isnt fair. The world is not civil. I think you need to open your eyes, stop looking at things as right and wrong and see that there can be good outcomes to what may seem to be horrible things.

Didn't ask about killing others in time of war, I asked about executing you and/or your loved ones by the state in time of (relative) peace.

[Breecher_7]

If they are convicted guilty by a court and a jury. YES! Im still all for the US court system, im not saying go on a killing spree of anyone you see sitting on a park bench.

Anything to better the lives of people that CARE about society.

[Want_Notch]

Ok....lets get back to how welfare and liberal social programs are fvcking up this country......LOL

[Breecher_7]

Ok....lets get back to how welfare and liberal social programs are fvcking up this country......LOL


Pretty sure it escalated to this....

Welfare, State assistance, anything that just gives money to straight up lazy ass people with not as much as a drug test needs to be done away with.

And if its not done away with, there needs to be some strict policy. Time limits, drug testing and so on.

[Breecher_7]

Uhhh, you're the one that went off on a crazy Vietnam Vet style rant about killing innocent women and children.

edit: Not trying to say anything about you or anything you've done, just saying it seemed kind of out of place given what the topic started out as.

I understand but the topic reached the point of executing people for the purpose of making the economy better. I was just trying to put a first hand spin on it as I see it.

Somtimes you need to so things that seem horrible to get a positive outcome.

[Z28Roxy]

If they are convicted guilty by a court and a jury. YES! Im still all for the US court system, im not saying go on a killing spree of anyone you see sitting on a park bench.

Anything to better the lives of people that CARE about society.

Well, do you believe that everyone convicted and executed for MURDER (much less lesser crimes) was actually guilty?

[Al]

The ghetto dwellers don't want to learn because they are LAZY!!!!!:

IMO, they do not have the desire to learn the right stuff or the motive and know-how to make their lives different. This is a conditional issue, and I agree that throwing money their way will not make it better. I blame BET.


1) There are already plenty of tools available for anyone to learn how to better manage their money no matter their income and 2) It's not neccessarily society's obligation to force them to learn it if they aren't already trying...

Tools are nice, but even a hammer has a slight learning curve. The xbox controller is much more complex, but they learn that.


Cause I do just fine without putting much effort into it?

My parents weren't rich, we lived in a crappy part of Milwaukee. But my folks busted their asses and got me out of there and into the suburbs. They didn't get any help, they refused what little was offered. They did it on their own, by both working 2 jobs.

It's all about what you're willing to do yourself to ake your life better. And unfortuantely there's a large sector of people who think it's all about what other do for them to make their life better.

These same people complain that the police never help them. But when the police come to investigate a crime, they refuse to talk to the police. They prefer to rely on excuses on why they can't, instead of reasons why they can.

Good point there.

I worked in a factory with people from the hood. Most of them over the age of 25 didn't blame anyone other than them selves. These people also tried to mentor the younger ones.
Just so others know, rationality still exists.

[Want_Notch]

Just so others know, rationality still exists.

Get the hell outa here....it does not.

[Breecher_7]

Well, do you believe that everyone convicted and executed for MURDER (much less lesser crimes) was actually guilty?

No, i know there not. But if a few innocent people die to make things better for everyone else, thats the way it should be.

Take your pick, watch the economy get dragged down by tens of thousands of worthless people or face the grim reality that a few innocent people may die while saving hundreds of millions or billions of dollars.

[Al]

Even if said person is YOU? Your wife? Your child?

I'm talking about completely wrongly convicted here.

Again if so I applaud you, you have the balls most death penalty supporters don't.

I've never been convicted of murder, but I do know what it is like to be wrongly convicted of a crime.

I bet the feeling of commiting a crime and getting cought is alot easier than being wrongly procecuted.

[Prince Valiant]

Contradiction. QED. Don't argue logic with a math major.Umm...I hope you are planning on teaching grade school math if your reasoning and reading abilities are indicative of your math abilities.

Saying "this shouldn't have to be taught", and that "it's pretty common sense" doesn't indicate that I either believe "everyone knows this" or that "everyone has common sense". There REALLY SHOULDN'T be people who need to learn this...alas, there are (this concession AGAIN, does not preclude that I think SOCIETY's is responsible/obligated to teach this)

An analogy would be like finding a kid that's been abused and neglected; I might find myself saying "this should NEVER happen"; clearly it does....but IT "SHOULDN'T"

But seemingly any debate with you becomes futile...rather than stick to the topic that you are losing on, you'd rather get off on tangents about semantics while distorting the context of the aurgument.

But don't worry...the lack of logic and reasoning seemingly does not disqualify anyone from being a teacher :goof

[Z28Roxy]

No, i know there not. But if a few innocent people die to make things better for everyone else, thats the way it should be.

Take your pick, watch the economy get dragged down by tens of thousands of worthless people or face the grim reality that a few innocent people may die while saving hundreds of millions or billions of dollars.

Hey we may differ on opinions, but I respect you for having real principles and sticking to them. :thumbsup

[Breecher_7]

Hey we may differ on opinions, but I respect you for having real principles and sticking to them. :thumbsup



:alcoholic :alcoholic :alcoholic :alcoholic Helps... :thumbsup

[Al]

No, i know there not. But if a few innocent people die to make things better for everyone else, thats the way it should be.

Take your pick, watch the economy get dragged down by tens of thousands of worthless people or face the grim reality that a few innocent people may die while saving hundreds of millions or billions of dollars.

"Take one for the team"

It does make sence, despite not being right in its entirety, but I can sometimes deal with it. I just cannot picture it here.

[Breecher_7]

"Take one for the team"

It does make sence, despite not being right in its entirety, but I can sometimes deal with it. I just cannot picture it here.

Everyone has there oppinion. Fortunate for you, the government will never see things the way I do and many others do. Its not "humane".

[Al]

Everyone has there oppinion. Fortunate for you, the government will never see things the way I do and many others do. Its not "humane".

I'm thinking about the death penalty with the other comment.

I support soldiers through just about everything. War is different. I don't see anything that you are doing is unacceptable. Knowing what EOD does, I'd back you even more.

[Prince Valiant]

And Al...you clearly don't work in the healthcare field, nor understand it.

And the only sector of canadian healthcare that is truely growing faster than the canadian population or economy is the illegal private for cash clinics springing up away from the US/canada border.

I was going to write up a portion detailing where many of your assumptions about either the US healthcare system or other countries were faulty or incorrect, but so much of it was so far off, It became senseless to even try....nosocomial infections in a nationalized healthcare debate? Bizarre....

[Knyghtmare]

My $.02




Oh and if Obama gets elected, im building a bomb shelter.

ROGER THAT!! This is why I am stocking up on my guns now. The only thing protecting this country will be Militia.

Anyone who votes for Barack O-Bullshit is SO easily manipulated. Its sad.

[Knyghtmare]

And, while I am at it, I want to add that voting for him would be typical of the weak minded liberals getting told any hippie bullshit they wanna hear and instantly becoming overly defensive about it if anyone tells them something like what I just did because there new false idol said something that sounded good while they are stoned.

[Al]

....nosocomial infections in a nationalized healthcare debate? Bizarre....

That was a sentence that ended up in there that should not have. Cut and paste error.

I was going to include a comment that went: "I went to a hospital for one thing and came out with a drug resistant infection. Now I have to pay for this too...dammit." But it seemed irrelevant.

Its like taking your car in for an oil change and you leave with a nail in your tire. The process is passive, like a nail on the ground, waiting. But metaphorically, the nail was not placed there intentionally (or was it). You'll be back.

[05caddyext]

McCain will choose Romney as his VP. That way when McCain dies in a few months, we will still get Romney haha. And who cares about poverty??? It must exist in order for the world to function. If even 1/3 of the people in poverty right now were somehow able to live like we do in the U.S. the world would be empty of resources incredibly fast. There are a billion people in India and China. There are over a billion people in Africa. If they all lived like us, there would be no us. I'm all for the ghetto. "So you are saying we should just let the animals kill each other?" "God willing, yes." Ethan Hawke to Denzel Washington. Training Day.

[Al]

McCain will choose Romney as his VP. That way when McCain dies in a few months, we will still get Romney haha. And who cares about poverty??? It must exist in order for the world to function. If even 1/3 of the people in poverty right now were somehow able to live like we do in the U.S. the world would be empty of resources incredibly fast. There are a billion people in India and China. There are over a billion people in Africa. If they all lived like us, there would be no us. I'm all for the ghetto. "So you are saying we should just let the animals kill each other?" "God willing, yes." Ethan Hawke to Denzel Washington. Training Day.

True Dat!

I think we are in a situation similar to that of the Weimar in the early 20th century. We need the National Socialist party to rise up and eliminate the lame. Dan Aykroyd said that there were a bunch of them in Illinois.

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

ROGER THAT!! This is why I am stocking up on my guns now. The only thing protecting this country will be Militia.

Anyone who votes for Barack O-Bullshit is SO easily manipulated. Its sad.

Really, is that part of his campaign platform "disband law enforcement and America's Military" ? That dirty muslim ! :goof
And I never heard Romney say anything about eliminating welfare and handouts, but I read about it on the BCM so it must be true. :rolf

For all the hype and BS that goes into presidential elections, all the doomsday theories and all the "I'm leaving the country" rants it sure seems like once elected president's do a whole lotta nothing, like most pols.

I no longer have a horse in the race so I really do not care who gets elected, because guess what ? No president ever did anything for me and my life will be the same in 2 years as it is now no matter who gets elected, same as my life was 2, 4 and 10 years ago.

[Knyghtmare]

Really, is that part of his campaign platform "disband law enforcement and America's Military" ? That dirty muslim ! :goof
And I never heard Romney say anything about eliminating welfare and handouts, but I read about it on the BCM so it must be true. :rolf

For all the hype and BS that goes into presidential elections, all the doomsday theories and all the "I'm leaving the country" rants it sure seems like once elected president's do a whole lotta nothing, like most pols.

I no longer have a horse in the race so I really do not care who gets elected, because guess what ? No president ever did anything for me and my life will be the same in 2 years as it is now no matter who gets elected, same as my life was 2, 4 and 10 years ago.

Exactly. Im not going to lie, I dont like him the most out of any of the players on either side. I didnt say that they arent all full of shit, but I think he is full of the most bullshit out of all of them. I thought Kerry was the master manipulater, well this guys makes him look like an alter boy. IMHO of course.

[lordairgtar]

Someone responded to my post about insurance companies administering the health care plans. I sure understand that the part B plans are supplemental, but my opinion still stands. I think the government will farm out to the insurance companies.

A bit about myself in response to Roxy's and other's debates. I worked in drug rehab for eight years in the state of California. It was a non-profit faith based outfit that helped me overcome my own addictions, so I stayed as staff member. They gave me an apartment of my own and a weekly allowance which wasn't much. After an arsonist burnt the place to the ground, I was with no job, no house, no money. I lived in my car for awhile looking for work. After realizing I wasn't going to find work out west, I came back to the midwest where I was raised. My asshat family wasn't going to help me out so I was still without a place to live. I got General Assistance (in 1982) and found a flop house to live in. I did odd jobs and temp work. It was damn ******* hard to survive but that whole deal about getting used to being on the dole started to take root. Eventually, I realized I got to do something to improve my status. I didn't know what to do, no one told me what I could do. I was just another loser in the crowd. I knew I didn't want to go back to the ghetto life or do drugs. I just made up my mind that I was going to improve my income and worth. I got a 50 dollar Chevette and got work delivering pizzas and a better apartment. Better cars were eventually gotten. I worked as well for temp agencies, being sent to all manor of work places. I got work driving school busses. I went to car shows drawing cars for people. I did anything legal to earn money and improve myself. The thing that amazed me was that the County was more concerned with me losing my GA check than being happy I was lifting myself out of poverty. I was working at temp agencies as well as bus driving tends to be seasonal. I eventually applied for work at the place I am at now in 1991. I live in Muskego, I have a new car and a great GF who's been with me over eight years. I still do car art and I DJ car shows. Point? The point is it takes self motivation that only you can find within yourself and be willing to do hard work, and work relentlessly. The attitude of many who are stuck in poverty is they wish not to work. It's hard for a young person in a poor neighborhood to want to get the Mcjob when they see the guy down the street driving an Escalade with no visible means of support. Who wants to work for minimum wage when money can be gotten the easy way illegally. someone said that no one is teaching these kids how to find it within themselves to improve themselves. Perhaps no one is, but they sure can observe. They observe the easy way out. There will be some who observe people working hard for their status in life and those are the ones who will succeed. I observed the hard workers, I listened to the right people. My childhood sucked major goat ass as did my early adult life. Couldn't do much about my childhood, but I made some bad choices as an adult. Luckily, I started making the right choices. The Government owes me nothing except a functioning infrastructure and a strong military and non-corrupt politicians and functionaries. Good luck on the last one. LOL:devil