Got a question for you mechanic's.

[Rotorhead-20B]

Im going to change the tranny fluid in my 95 oldsmobile and was wondering if anyone has encountered any problems I should be aware of. I was thinking about paying for it but cant really justify paying for it when I can just get on my back and do it. Any help will be greatly appreciated :thumbsup

[michelle]

Slightly off topic, but has it ever been changed before? Isn't there some myth that if you change the fluid on an automatic tranny that hasn't been flushed that often (or ever) and is way passed due that it doesn't last long with new fluid? I wanted to flush the fluid in the new beater car, but I was told I shouldn't because it probably hasn't been changed often if ever at all.

I had mine done in my '01 Taurus by a friend who works at a dealer for cash, much less then they ordinarily charge. If you have a garage (and can heat it), I would say go for it yourself unless someone here wants some extra cash (or beer). Do tranny-specific shops charge less then a dealership would?

[Rotorhead-20B]

Slightly off topic, but has it ever been changed before? Isn't there some myth that if you change the fluid on an automatic tranny that hasn't been flushed that often (or ever) and is way passed due that it doesn't last long with new fluid? I wanted to flush the fluid in the new beater car, but I was told I shouldn't because it probably hasn't been changed often if ever at all.

I had mine done in my '01 Taurus by a friend who works at a dealer for cash, much less then they ordinarily charge. If you have a garage (and can heat it), I would say go for it yourself unless someone here wants some extra cash (or beer). Do tranny-specific shops charge less then a dealership would?

Honestly i dont think its ever been changed but its been acting up so I know I have to do it. Its a oldsmobile aurora so im pretty sure the trannies on those cars arent too good.

[Car Guy]

It's NOT a myth...!!! I've seen it happen many times, and to myself (more than once!) now that I think about it..... What is the current mileage...???






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[michelle]

Honestly i dont think its ever been changed but its been acting up so I know I have to do it. Its a oldsmobile aurora so im pretty sure the trannies on those cars arent too good.

How is the fluid level itself? The '95 SHO ATX was acting up when I first got it and I checked the fluid to find out it was really really low. Added a few quarts and it shifts as smooth as my '01.

[Rotorhead-20B]

It's NOT a myth...!!! I've seen it happen many times, and to myself (more than once!) now that I think about it..... What is the current mileage...???






:3gears::3gears::3gears:

Hmmm now you have me thinking twice about it ha!

[Car Guy]

Hmmm now you have me thinking twice about it ha!

Check it and get back to us, I'll let you know what the deal is......:thumbsup








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[Prince Valiant]

I know it used to happen in chryslers all the time...but then it turned out that the fluid that was being replaced was the incorrect kind (mopar trannies are very fluid sensitive...wrong one can lead to failure in mere miles in some cases, particularly late 80's, early 90's FWD "fuzzy logic" units).

Otherwise, autotrans fluid is a strong detergent...so while the detergent qualities have since expired in your old fluid, putting in new detergent might really move some crap around, suspend so much in the way of particles, it hastens failure.

I don't buy it though...think of it this way. Your tranny is already acting funny. It's probably already on the way out anyways, whether you changed the fluid or not. If you changed it and it failed, many would credit the wrong thing...IE, you changed the fluid, that caused tranny failure, instead of recognizing it was failing anyways.

I say change it...it can't really make things worse than it is already going to be. And who knows...I've changed fluid on trannies I thought were toast and lo-and-behold, they worked fine for another 10-15K miles.

[WickedSix]

^^^^ X2 stupid atf+2 chrysler bs .... so far as changing your fluid do it, and do it when it is supposed to be done. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain imho. I have heard stories about people changing fluid and trannies dying....but I have actually changed fluids and seen them get some new life. For me it is an old wives tale :thumbsup

[Russ Jerome]

Urban myth!!!!

Been wrenching for a little while............
People always think about changing there ATF when they
start having issues, in turn they fail soon after the change.
Use Ford ATF if your concerned, no detergent to break free
the years of sludge attached to the clutchs and selective
washers.

I totaly trashed a trans towing a car to Tennesee, drove it
home by draining and filling the burnt fluid several times on
the way back to milwaukee, never smelled worse ATF, the
lady at the tollbooth in IL asked if I was ok when she heard
the whining/screaming noise the van made as I pulled up :)

Having a shop actualy 'flush" your system is the best way.
The fluid coming out the trans goes into a resevoir and a
pump flows new/clean fluid into the trans. This replaces
99% of your fluid unlike a pan drop and filter that does
1/3 of your fluid. Idealy a pan drop/filter change and
then flush.

[awsomeears]

I'm with Car Guy on this one !!!!!!

[Z28Roxy]

Urban myth!!!!

Been wrenching for a little while............
People always think about changing there ATF when they
start having issues, in turn they fail soon after the change.


I'm with you on this, people change it when it's too late anyway then they blame the flush for their idiocy. :chair:

[Russ Jerome]

I'm with Car Guy on this one !!!!!!

Remember where I live? Want to come see what Im doing on
my bench right now :)
http://hometown.aol.com/russjerome/images/grayvantrans.jpg
Automatics are not rocket science, they dont have feelings and
they like clean cool fluid...old tranies or new tranies :)

[Rotorhead-20B]

Remember where I live? Want to come see what Im doing on
my bench right now :)
http://hometown.aol.com/russjerome/images/grayvantrans.jpg
Automatics are not rocket science, they dont have feelings and
they like clean cool fluid...old tranies or new tranies :)

Ok now the question is what type of fluid should I use? I dont work on american cars and I dont want to go to checkers and just pick up any tranny fluid what would you guys recommend? I would say royal purple but im not going to be racing it just yet :rolf:rolf

[WickedSix]

thinking that car is dexcron mercron III I use castrol myself :thumbsup

[Russ Jerome]

Ok now the question is what type of fluid should I use? I dont work on american cars and I dont want to go to checkers and just pick up any tranny fluid what would you guys recommend? I would say royal purple but im not going to be racing it just yet :rolf:rolf

Dextron II or IIE is what your car came with, all Dextron fluid
is compatable.

If your concerned of varnish coming free from the change and
the tran spontaniusly combusting internaly use Mercron, it has
less detergent. Ford fluid (Mercron) is suggested by most high
end builders like Hughs Performance and other trans builders.

[Prince Valiant]

The ford fluids also have a friction modifiers...

It was an old trick back in the day...wanted firmer shifts? Ford mercron! It was the poor man's/shade tree guy's shift kit.

I'm not so sure on some more modern trans, like the newer mopars using them. But the old school guys used to use the stuff all the time.

[Berettaspeed]

you should be fine. unless the fluid is sooo bad, which is not very common any more. alot of those late 80s cars was the big problem. the GMs with the c125 had that problem as well as the caravans. LOL

[Car Guy]

Not to start a war here but every transmission I know of that crapped out completely or STARTED acting up shortly after changing 'old' fluid was just fine BEFORE the fluid change.....

How do you explain that...??? Just curious.....

One of the cars that this happened to is the one we're driving as we speak, and I've seen it with at least 5 others besides two more of which were mine also.....

As far as transmissions that are already ‘on the way out’ I haven't seen changing the fluid cause them to get any worse per say. It just doesn't make a difference or very little at all.....








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[Reverend Cooper]

when you flush it or change it all out you run the risk or removing the friction material thats in the burnt dirty fluid, ive seen them crap out after trans flushes also its no myth. if the trans is acting up get it fixed, fluid will not in many cases be the issue, im with russ and car guy on this to varying degrees

[WickedSix]

^^^ coop, you agree a trans in that condition is still a ticking time bomb tho right?

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

Not to start a war here but every transmission I know of that crapped out completely or STARTED acting up shortly after changing 'old' fluid was just fine BEFORE the fluid change.....

How do you explain that...???

:3gears::3gears::3gears:

That is weird but I am pretty sure doing proper maintenance on the transmission is not the cause of the failure. If anything its better for the bad trans to be found out bad than to be left on the side of the road in "New Mexico".
Some folks I know swear by the LUCAS trans fix in a bottle but I dont really buy into snake oils and prefer my junk to either work right or be busted, not halfway "will it make it" type stuff.

Most all the common trans fluid I see today is all labeled as Mercon/Dexron III, pretty common to older GM and Fords, the only Mercon "specific" is the Mercon V and I would only put that in a Ford OD trans.

[Car Guy]

Just to clarify how soon I've seen them 'go' or act up. It's been as soon as you start to drive down the street and up to a week and a half or so.....







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[Prince Valiant]

Sorry, but you might be making just a simple correlation that doesn't demonstrate a causation (like increased crime during full moons). How many failures are we talking? What are the variety of tranny's we are talking? What was the time frame from fluid change to tranny failure? Did all failures fail pretty much the same way? In each case, were the tranny uses similar? What were the service intervals of each tranny in question?

I mean trannies can fail for a variety of reasons. I'll tell you, it's not for taking proper care of the transmission.

And if it IS, I'd NEVER take it to whoever is doing the fluid changes, lol.

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

Just to clarify how soon I've seen them 'go' or act up. It's been as soon as you start to drive down the street and up to a week and a half or so.....







:3gears::3gears::3gears:

Honestly these cases sound like a last ditch effort at saving a transmission that has bit the big green weenie.

I can see it now, "This trans is shifting funky and slipping some, lets try and change the fluid in it as an attempt at saving/delaying paying $XXX to put in a new transmission"

[A B4C Z]

if it has the northstar in it. Those trannies are a ***** to R&R. But for a pan drop. Its simple and if its acting up your either going to fix the problem or make it worse so you might as well do it.

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

I listen to a car mechanic program on the radio and the guy swears by putting in a 4oz. bottle of Ford Trac-Lok Friction Modifier into older higher mile transmissions.

[Russ Jerome]

Not to start a war here but every transmission I know of that crapped out completely or STARTED acting up shortly after changing 'old' fluid was just fine BEFORE the fluid change.....

How do you explain that...???

No war here, you feel just like plenty of trany guys I know personely
that feel the exact same way as you :) Here is what they say:

The two primary wear components (failure items) of an auto are
the clutchs and bands. The largest theory is that the thin and
dirty fluid is actualy helping these fibre coverd items to grip, when
the new (slippery) fluid is used shift flare (the clutchs spinning
free under load) and smoke the clutchs.

If lubricating and cooling those items causes them to fail then
they could not have many miles left in them. I used to feel the
same way as you, but after rebuilding tranies myself I cant
support the idea any longer. Older tranies used extremely tight
fitting parts like govenors, lightly spring loaded there goal is
to overcome line pressure as there mass is spun. Sliding a
govenor in a bore with its old fluid and then again with new
fluid you can actualy feel why the old trans never returned to
a lower gear at a stop light. Newer tranies use as much as
400psi in reverse, if those clutchs wont lock any longer with
new fluid they were toast anyway. Short of shift flare you cant
point at any other item in the trans that could fail after new
fluid is used (belvel washers,torque convertor, apply pistons,ect).
A broken wave snap ring or something just cant happen from new
fluid being used. If anybody would ever like a hands on visual on
how an auto trany realy works (and drink some beer!) I usualy
have one in my garage Im working on (like now) and we can try
and come up with some other ideas, I dont buy it anymore even
tho I've blamed fluid change on failures in the past.

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

No war here, you feel just like plenty of trany guys I know personely
that feel the exact same way as you :) Here is what they say:

The two primary wear components (failure items) of an auto are
the clutchs and bands. The largest theory is that the thin and
dirty fluid is actualy helping these fibre coverd items to grip, when
the new (slippery) fluid is used shift flare (the clutchs spinning
free under load) and smoke the clutchs.

If lubricating and cooling those items causes them to fail then
they could not have many miles left in them. I used to feel the
same way as you, but after rebuilding tranies myself I cant
support the idea any longer. Older tranies used extremely tight
fitting parts like govenors, lightly spring loaded there goal is
to overcome line pressure as there mass is spun. Sliding a
govenor in a bore with its old fluid and then again with new
fluid you can actualy feel why the old trans never returned to
a lower gear at a stop light. Newer tranies use as much as
400psi in reverse, if those clutchs wont lock any longer with
new fluid they were toast anyway. Short of shift flare you cant
point at any other item in the trans that could fail after new
fluid is used (belvel washers,torque convertor, apply pistons,ect).
A broken wave snap ring or something just cant happen from new
fluid being used. If anybody would ever like a hands on visual on
how an auto trany realy works (and drink some beer!) I usualy
have one in my garage Im working on (like now) and we can try
and come up with some other ideas, I dont buy it anymore even
tho I've blamed fluid change on failures in the past.

And thats the truuf. Once you see a smoked clutch the reason that car no longer moved become blatantly clear and you realize new fluid had nothing to do with that ugliness.

[Windsors 03 Cobra]

He said it was a 95 Aurora, which has the "turbo 400 with OD" also used behind the Northstar, the expensive and elusive 4T80E

[Car Guy]

Sorry, but you might be making just a simple correlation that doesn't demonstrate a causation (like increased crime during full moons). How many failures are we talking? What are the variety of tranny's we are talking? What was the time frame from fluid change to tranny failure? Did all failures fail pretty much the same way? In each case, were the tranny uses similar? What were the service intervals of each tranny in question?

I mean trannies can fail for a variety of reasons. I'll tell you, it's not for taking proper care of the transmission.

And if it IS, I'd NEVER take it to whoever is doing the fluid changes, lol.




????? Maybe I'm not explaining myself clearly enough but that's the case, sort of.....

These 7 or so examples have been on transmissions that were working fine PREVIOUS to changing the fluid, some with higher mileage around 150k-175k but some as low as 42k and 72k. All of them had NOT had a fluid/filter change EVER, and then once the fluid was changed (properly) it either started to act up or failed completely shortly there after......

Besides the ones that I've dealt with I know of many others form very reputable sources, all under the same circumstances.....

It may seem like I'm talking out of two sides of my mouth but with Rotorhead-20b's situation I originally didn't see his post stating that his was ALREADY acting up. If the transmission is already acting up there is obviously an existing problem that needs to be addressed. I have prolonged the failure or slightly improved the operation of a transmission that is acting up but a miracle is not going to happen.....

I hope this clears things up on my end but the 7 or so examples I speak of were performed/experienced by myself and I'm no idiot.....:goof






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[WickedSix]

no auto tranmission has a lifetime tranny fliud and filter, changed at the proper intervals....believe most are ~20000-30000 miles it will last and work alot better than leaving the same fluid in it for a lifetime

[Car Guy]

If anybody would ever like a hands on visual on
how an auto trany realy works (and drink some beer!) I usualy
have one in my garage Im working on (like now) and we can try
and come up with some other ideas, I dont buy it anymore even
tho I've blamed fluid change on failures in the past.

I'll have to take you up on that offer, but not until we see spring/summer like temperatures. I'm NOT one for the cold weather and would not enjoy myself as much as I should. Even a toasty garage will do little to break my 'grumpy' winter mood, yes it sucks to be me in this climate.....:rolleyes:








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[Rotorhead-20B]

I'll have to take you up on that offer, but not until we see spring/summer like temperatures. I'm NOT one for the cold weather and would not enjoy myself as much as I should. Even a toasty garage will do little to break my 'grumpy' winter mood, yes it sucks to be me in this climate.....:rolleyes:








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Thanks to everyone for their imput. Im going to just pay to get the tranny flush and then if the tranny goes to hell then I will have to replace it. Car Guy I know exactly how you feel. Thats why im going on vacation for new years. 90 degree weather here i come :banana1:

[wikked]

I think alot of the tranny failures after changing fluid come from using the wrong fluid.

I know Mitsu A/T's are very sensitive to what fluid you put in.
The first time I changed my the fluid/filter on my Talon, I bought some B&M Trickshift, which is supposedly ok... but it totally failed a few months later, and I've since read of more DSM failures shortly after using B&M fluid.

Anything other than Mitsu Diamond ATF should have a friction modifier added to it, such as Lubegard black/red, to bring it up to standards.

But I only use Diamond ATF now, and have changed fluid/filter many times in both my cars, and haven't had any problems.

It's probably from people grabbing some Kwik Trip ATF... "hey cool, only 29¢/qt". :P

[Rotorhead-20B]

Well I got under the car and it looks like the tranny is leaking fluid. Its not that much but enough to worry me a bit. They tranny is good just when the car is cold it shifts a bit on the harsh side. The fluid still looks somewhat orange/bronze in color. But it for sure need a new pan gasket and fluid. Hopefully its still ok.

[A B4C Z]

If its when its cold its probly a bad seal.

[Rotorhead-20B]

If its when its cold its probly a bad seal.

Thats what my pops told me. Im not sure tho Im going to fix it and see where it goes. I dont drive the car my girl does so I have to fix it before it strands her somewhere in the cold and then I get bitched at. No No No Ive learned my lesson. :rolf

[wikked]

Or a pan bolt(s) aren't tight enough somewhere.

Orange/bronze fluid is obviously burnt, change eet :]

It shifts rough when cold because you are probably low on fluid.
Trans fluid expands when it heats up, covering your ass enough to smooth out the shifts.

[DurtyKurty]

These 7 or so examples have been on transmissions that were working fine PREVIOUS to changing the fluid, some with higher mileage around 150k-175k but some as low as 42k and 72k. All of them had NOT had a fluid/filter change EVER, and then once the fluid was changed (properly) it either started to act up or failed completely shortly there after......

but the 7 or so examples I speak of were performed/experienced by myself and I'm no idiot.....:goof


hmmm.... and what is the other common denominator here?....

Occam's razor FTW ;)

[Car Guy]

hmmm.... and what is the other common denominator here?....

Occam's razor FTW ;)


What is that ^^^ supposed to mean...???






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[WickedSix]

simplest explanation is usually the correct one :thumbsup

[Car Guy]

simplest explanation is usually the correct one :thumbsup

I've never heard that word before, ever.....

So is mine the simple explanation or...??? I've lost all track of this thread since my last post.....







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[DurtyKurty]

I've never heard that word before, ever.....

So is mine the simple explanation or...??? I've lost all track of this thread since my last post.....


LOL!

Let me break it down for you....

7 Transmissions
7 Transmissions have trans fluid changed by Car Guy.
7 Transmissions fail

2 possible conclusions:

1. Transmissions don't like to have fluid changes
or
2. Car guy shouldn't change transmission fluid.

Apply Occam's Razor, and stir gently (don't shake).

:)

[Car Guy]

LOL!

Let me break it down for you....

7 Transmissions
7 Transmissions have trans fluid changed by Car Guy.
7 Transmissions fail

2 possible conclusions:

1. Transmissions don't like to have fluid changes
or
2. Car guy shouldn't change transmission fluid.

Apply Occam's Razor, and stir gently (don't shake).

:)



First off all of them didn't fail; I'm still driving one of the two/three that didn't as we speak. How do you explain the many other people that have seen the same thing...???

I also find it hard to believe that someone would assume changing transmission fluid could be done wrong. It's not rocket science and there is not much (if anything) that you can screw up on.....








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[DurtyKurty]

I know, I'm just busting your chops. :)

[Car Guy]

I know, I'm just busting your chops. :)

I appreciate it.....






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[Prince Valiant]

I also find it hard to believe that someone would assume changing transmission fluid could be done wrong. It's not rocket science and there is not much (if anything) that you can screw up on.....
That's incorrect right there.

using the incorrect fluid for one...not filling it to the correct levels for two.

Not that I'm accusing you of this...by no means (you know I know you're not an idiot :goof ) but those are two not uncommon mistakes that people make.

[Car Guy]

That's incorrect right there.

using the incorrect fluid for one...not filling it to the correct levels for two.

Not that I'm accusing you of this...by no means (you know I know you're not an idiot :goof ) but those are two not uncommon mistakes that people make.

True, but that's usually a result of not taking the time to make sure you have the right fluid. If you can't do that you shouldn't be working on a vehicle to begin with.....







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[Prince Valiant]

True, but that's usually a result of not taking the time to make sure you have the right fluid. If you can't do that you shouldn't be working on a vehicle to begin with.....
And to this day there is no quick lube/midas/whatever shop that'll put the correct fluid in a mopar tranny. They all use the GM stuff and put in an "additive package" that makes it right. Only thing is is that it does nothing of the sort.

[Car Guy]

And to this day there is no quick lube/midas/whatever shop that'll put the correct fluid in a mopar tranny. They all use the GM stuff and put in an "additive package" that makes it right. Only thing is is that it does nothing of the sort.

I personally don't do that many tranny flushes to make it worth while to buy a drum of bulk and then use the additives. That's one thing I wish I knew more on, some people swear by it and some don't like it at all.....

I personally don't know enough to even comment on it, but by 'enough' I mean everything there is to know about it.....







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[wikked]

That's incorrect right there.

using the incorrect fluid for one...not filling it to the correct levels for two.

Not that I'm accusing you of this...by no means (you know I know you're not an idiot :goof ) but those are two not uncommon mistakes that people make.

Also:

Not knowing the correct procedure for checking the fluid once you fill it.

I.E., DSM = flat level surface (obviously). fully warmed up, car running, go through each gear for 5 seconds, leave in neutral (still running), check.

It's different for most every brand.