Just watched SiCKO... wow. Counter points?

[Nickerz]

So considering all his movies are slanted as hard as it can be. Whats the counter point? Seems like we really are behind the 8 ball on health care. Shit if you can get treatment on the streets of Cuba, I don't know what to think about that.

[Al]

As a dentist, my old man says "human stupidity keeps me in business. Just about every cardiologist will say the same thing."

Just like with cars, there really is such a thing as preventative mantanence.

Then again, he talks more about the business end of the deal than the actual work he is accomplishing. According to him, his company made a 27% profit from an insurance company they temporarily owned.

[Nickerz]

As a dentist, my old man says "human stupidity keeps me in business. Just about every cardiologist will say the same thing."

Just like with cars, there really is such a thing as preventative mantanence.

Then again, he talks more about the business end of the deal than the actual work he is accomplishing. According to him, his company made a 27% profit from an insurance company they temporarily owned.

I thought it was interesting that preventative health care was so big in other countries.

[Go Speed]

http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zwiki/images/regions/maps/jpeg/United_States_of_America.jpg

http://www.m-w.com/maps/images/maps/cuba_map.gif


Not to scale.

My point is, getting healthcare into a country the size of Florida (roughly), when you're a communist state, is pretty easy. Whats your is mine, what's mine is yours and ultimately it all belongs to Castro.

For starters, if you could give every american healthcare, you'd have to put control into the hands of state and local government. Trying to federalize that type of legislation is impossible in an area that has a socio, political and economical landscape that looks like the pacific ridge.

We have available to us every option in the world for prevantative health care and regular maintenance of our bodies. If you have money you can join a club just as easily as you can buy a big mac. If you don't, every city i've been in has a pretty little place you can go run or walk or ride your bikes - and if it doesn't, there's always the street or your neighborhood. We don't have to buy preservative laden foods and crap. We could just be responsible for ourselves.

[Karps TA]

If you could get rid of all the frivilous malpractice law suits in this country, you could drop the cost of healthcare dramatically. Doctors pay ridiculous amounts of money yearly for malpractice insurance.

But that's about all I can say on the subject considering I'd rather burn both my eyes out then watch Michael Moore's movies.

[subliminal1284]

Total bullshit, I dont care what you say no human being should have to choose between buying groceries or getting their prescriptions filled.

[Nickerz]

or having to not have their fingers reattached as demonstrated

[Karps TA]

So who should pay for this healthcare for everyone? I don't want to see my tax bills any higher. I'm sure theres plenty of chairty organizations out there that help people with medical needs who can't afford it. For those who are so outraged, how much do you give to those charities every year?

In a perfect world everyone would have health insurance. But it's not. Canada has govt healthcare and I've never heard anyone from Canada rave about the service they get. They have long lines, and you have to make appts months in advance.

The govt can barely do things they are actually suppossed to do without making it cost 10 times as much and taking 5 times as long. Healthcare reform is beyond their abilities.

[Nickerz]

http://www.canadaka.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=632390#632390

It's seems the lines really aren't for serious injuries as once implied. Feel free to politely ask questions and not to be some Wisconsin idiot tooting your retard horn making brash and stupid statements.

[Yooformula]

interesting reading. imo, we trade off certain things for others. Other countries may have better health care but how does their quality of life compare? ie: homes, cars, gross incomes, etc. I believe even our middle class live better than the upper classes in some countries. Personally, I rely more on preventative maintanace than reactive maint. I dont change my oil after the motor blows up yet our society treats their bodies/health this way then complains when someone isnt there to pick up the pieces. We want our govt to regulate some things but not others....cant have it both ways. For some systems to work the way we dream of, you would have to put total control in govt...socialist/communist state if you will.

Follow trends of vaccines for the last 25 years and track the trends in increases of autism/obesity/diabetes then tell me you really want the govt controlling this and give you free healthcare. Its like welfare all over again, so many of the forced meds causes other issues which in turn they still make money off of you from. I would rather have the choice of healthcare and not rely on the govt to say who, where and when. I just wish everyone had to pay their own way and that prices were regulated..now THAT would be a level playing field. sorry just a bit of a rant.

[UnderPSI]

I'd rather burn both my eyes out then watch Michael Moore's movies.

X2

[Karps TA]

http://www.canadaka.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=632390#632390

It's seems the lines really aren't for serious injuries as once implied. Feel free to politely ask questions and not to be some Wisconsin idiot tooting your retard horn making brash and stupid statements.

Well this WI idiot does ask questions. I have plenty of customers and sales people in Canada, and this has come up in conversations in the past. And the vast majority of them have not had glowing things to say about their system.

Why this would never work in this country is because we are filled with people who want handouts. Everytime somebody had the slightest sniffle they would run to the clinic to get their free medicine or whatever. There would be a large segment of this country who would take advantage of the system, which would just create even more problems for those in actual need. They'd be pushed to the back of the line.

And I don't even want to think about how many more illegal immigrants would be flocking into this country to take advantage of the system.

[subliminal1284]

With all the shit our forked up Govt wastes money on they could provide healthcare for all US citizens. I too have heard about long lines and waiting from the free healthcare in Canada and there is a simple solution to that. Some docotrs could choose to do private care and accept only people with good insurance or who have the financial means to pay for their services. Also kicking the motherforking illegals out would drastically cut healthcare costs.

[SSDude]

With all the shit our forked up Govt wastes money on they could provide healthcare for all US citizens.

If our Government would stop handing out Billions of dollars to undeserving countries, we could have health care for everyone, but we would be hated even more for having it all and not sharing.

All of us with health care already pay the freight for the people that stiff providers by not paying. Our premiums are inflated to pick up the tab.


Also kicking the motherforking illegals out would drastically cut healthcare costs.

Ending free care, schooling and Social Security elligibility for Illegals would be a great first step and would relieve a huge burden.

Allowing prescriptions to be filled outside our borders would help bring down those prices as well.

I like my health care. I work my asset off for it, and the people without should strive for that as well.

[SSDude]

If you could get rid of all the frivilous malpractice law suits in this country, you could drop the cost of healthcare dramatically. Doctors pay ridiculous amounts of money yearly for malpractice insurance.

But that's about all I can say on the subject considering I'd rather burn both my eyes out then watch Michael Moore's movies.

Couldn't agree more!!

[fireguyrick]

Well, here is my two cents with healthcare reform. Mind you I may be a little biased in this as both my wife and I are healthcare providers.

The issue with long lines: Why even look at Canada to see long lines for diagnostic tests, just look here. My wife needed to schedule an ultrasound about a year ago for gall stones. The ER docs told her she needed to get one STAT. Of course, she was in so much pain she had to be fairly heavily medicated. We called to make an appointment at Froedtert (where we both worked at the time). How long for an ultrasound? About a month and half or so. WTF? She could not work or really move with the pain she was in. We got LUCKY and I called in a favor from a MD I know fairly well. They got us in within a day....but that was because I had some connections with the head of Cardiology and CT surgery. Turns out she had about the worst case of gall stones the surgeon had ever seen in his 20+ years of practice. Now, how would those lines have been if there was universal healthcare? How long would my wife had needed to wait in either a double overed unable to move state of pain or drugged up?

Here is what I HONESTLY feel is the issue with healthcare in the US. It is a good system in theory. Medicaid and Medicare are all that should be provided via the government (mind you Medicaid is state administered with each state setting there own rules about eligibility and services, which in this state means Gov. Doyle must be getting some kickback). The issue that we have with these two programs is rampant abuse by certain types of people. These are the people that refuse to get prenatal care, choose pediatricians for their children, or to choose primary care providers. They flood the ER's with cases that could be handled at an Urgent care clinic or at a primarey care physicians practice. Why do they go to the ER? For a great deal many of them it is fairly easy access to pain medications, and for others it is sheer ignorance. The other aspect to this is that the government IS relatively slow to repay money to providers and also likes to deny claims (due to the abuse). This makes providers pass on the cost to other patients and insurances.

A large issue is a failure to properly educate the masses about proper health promotion and management. Take for example my wife again. She is currently finishing up her Master's in Nursing as a Woman's Health Nurse Practitioner (specializing in prenatal care). She worked with a local parish nurse to help teach urban women (many teens) about proper prenatal care along with post partum child care. She also was working with the City of Milwaukee investigating SIDS cases and ways to reduce the occurance rates (which is VERY high in Milwaukee when compared to other urban centers). Anyways, there was a guest speaker that this church (holding the classes) brought in. This speaker stated she had no healthcare training at all, and then proceeded to tell these young women what they should and should not do while pregnant, and after they give birth. A GREAT DEAL of this information was erroneous, and a fair amount was down right dangerous (some where actually things that the American Association of Pediatrics have seen correlations to an increase in SIDS with). Everything this woman was saying was pretty much hand me down traditions. Traditions are fine, but when science can prove otherwise there is an issue IMHO. So, my wife attempted to correct what this woman had said, after the lecture she gave, to these young women. The response she received was along the lines of "What would you know, you are just a spoiled rich little white girl." Yes, what would my wife know having worked in Labor and Delivery, Post-Partum, and Children's Hospital Neonatal ICU for the last several years.


In the end we really NEED to educate people better. That is a HUGE issue. If we can do this, we can cut back on the amount of frivolous doctor/hospital visits which drive healthcare costs up. I also feel that there should be lifestyle charges. If you smoke/drink/are obese you should have to pay more, as you are a greater risk (just like car insurance. Why should I pay as much for insurance as someone that has had a DWI, reckless endangerment, etc). Finally I think that it should be mandated that ALL employers at least OFFER some form of health insurance to ALL employees. I am not sure there is a good way to do that, but it would be a start.

THough, yes, frivolous lawsuits are a PITA, and they do drive up malpractice costs. I have a friend who's father retired last year from being a surgeon. His father HAS TO carry malpractice insurance for 5 years past retirement. His yearly malpractice insurance costs are $120,000 a year. That is a pretty big chunk of change to have to pay when you are not even practicing.

Rick

[Prince Valiant]

Counterpoints? Didn't you notice that there is NONE in the movie?

It wouldn't have served his point (IE propoganda) to offer the pov of insurance providers or HMO's or hospitals, etc...

I haven't seen the film yet...but I desperately want to. I know of a few things that he cites that are grossly misleading:

Cubans live longer: This may or may not be true....but it's not a reflection of the quality of healthcare though. It's a reflection of many things wholely divorced from the quality of healthcare...such as local diet preferences (they don't have the money to eat the junk we eat), ethnicity, amount of traffic (hey, alot of people die on our hwy's), etc....but, if he pointed that out, it might dampen his silly claims that cuber>US in healthcare

Lower infant mortality rate: Again, he tells something that may be true, but has nothing to do with the facts at hand, IE, their pre-natal care is superior to ours. One, he doesn't mention that a slight majority of cuban babies are aborted...here in the US, we carry FAR more difficult pregancies to term, so this increases the chances of mortality significantly. Secondly, women in the US are increasingly having children later in life, complicatating factors.

He shows the best of the best of cuban healthcare...the one (maybe two) facilities they have that are considered "world class". What he doesn't show is the kind of care that the typical cuban gets...you know, the stuff in roach infested buildings, where supplies are non-existent. Do you know that the US donates most of cuba's medical supplies?

If Cuban doctors are so great, why did castro fly-in a doctor from spain to perform his surgery?

Hey, why not ask canadians what they think of their system? You'd find that they are less pleased with theirs than ours.

But, time limits a full response, if we wanted to control cost better, we should actually have a "free-market" system...which we don't. We don't know the cost of our healthcare...most don't even know their premiums. We don't know what insurance pays (most times) or what a doctor bills...or for what. If we did (and I have a plan for this...to be posted soon. Bet you can't wait!), our care would be dramatically cheaper.

[HITMAN]

Counterpoints? To Michael Moore's horseshit propoganda? LOL! Here is the only counterpoint I need...

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/6237/fatpig23jl.jpg

[Al]

If national health care is implemented, one of the requirments for it should be that you do not smoke.

^ some can run with this like a kid with a pair of sizzors.

[SSDude]

If national health care is implemented, one of the requirments for it should be that you do not smoke.

^ some can run with this like a kid with a pair of sizzors.

I can hardly wait comrade. What will be next? No alcohol. The food police or?

Keep government out of my life. I will be a happier person and i'm more capable of running it myself.:thumbsup

[DRK]

educate don't legislate

[subliminal1284]

As much as it saddens me free health care will never happen here, our government is way too corrupt to do anything that might actually help our people. All of our politicians are puppets controlled by corporations. Viva le Revolution!:D

[SSDude]

No such thing as free health care as us working stiffs will be paying for EVERYONE else! I just love higher taxes:goof

Our government would run health care as well as they handle immigration!