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GRM-REPR
04-15-2007, 07:57 PM
I'm still having trouble figuring out why this engine seems to have a mind of its own sometimes.

It's a 75' Firebird with a 355, E-brock 700cfm, E-brock Performer RPM intake, fuelie heads, mild build, brand new MSD dizzy, Accel 8.8 wires, MSD 6a and some other tricks.

The #6 boot kept burning melting against the header tube cuz the header design sucks, so I got a new boot and trimmed it a bit to clear it, I don't think this is causing anything anymore.

I put my friends E-brock carb on last year before putting it away and it seemed better.

The car just seems like it will miss or backfire at anytime. Today it was bubbly at the intersection when I drove thru it, and when I got onto the freeway and accelled, it backfired out of what seemed to be the pass side tailpipe, then seemed to "clear" up.

I'm rusty with carb'd cars due to having EFI for the last 5+ years. I'm out of ideas and whatnot.

It has roller rockers that haven't been adjusted since the engine was built, roughly 3k on it. I figure if it were a rocker, it would do it all the time. The car feels like it isn't at full potential ever.

Any suggestions would be appreciated, or if anyone knows a good tuner/diagnoser....

Thanks, Jon.

2SLOW
04-16-2007, 07:39 AM
it's popping out of the exaust, or carb? also how close it the distributor pickup wire to the power or coil wires? they shoud at least be 6" to eliminate radio interference. bad ground, almost seems like if it i popping through exaust like a miss or detonation it could be a loose wire? if it has a mind of its own it has to be ignition?? what is the initial timing set at, and total advance?

Myles
04-16-2007, 07:54 AM
Check the plugs, find out if you are running lean/rich on a random cyl. Then check the timing. Check a ground that may be lose.

If all else fails put an LT1 in it. Its not that hard.

GRM-REPR
04-16-2007, 11:43 AM
I believe the wires are right next to the dizzy.

The plugs are new, along side a new dizzy.

The backfire was out of the exhaust. Trust me Spool, I've gone over the ignition system a million times, however, I never knew that the pick-up wires, (I'm assuming you're referring to what would be the black/orange, or pink MSD wires from the box) could play interference on the ignition, MSD never mentioned this.

Timing is roughly 9*. I thought it seemed better when I swapped the Holley for an E-brock carb, but it still runs goofy when it wants.

Myles, I'd rather stick a Ponti 455 into it before disgracing the car with another chevy block....:goof

juicedimpss
04-16-2007, 12:11 PM
sounds like the carb is fat.

jbiscuit
04-16-2007, 12:37 PM
gurgling/bubblin = carb is WAY too fat. When you go WOT it probably isn't AS fat which is why it "clears up."

Why did you switch the Holley out for?

2SLOW
04-16-2007, 12:56 PM
I believe the wires are right next to the dizzy.

The plugs are new, along side a new dizzy.

The backfire was out of the exhaust. Trust me Spool, I've gone over the ignition system a million times, however, I never knew that the pick-up wires, (I'm assuming you're referring to what would be the black/orange, or pink MSD wires from the box) could play interference on the ignition, MSD never mentioned this.

Timing is roughly 9*. I thought it seemed better when I swapped the Holley for an E-brock carb, but it still runs goofy when it wants.

Myles, I'd rather stick a Ponti 455 into it before disgracing the car with another chevy block....:goof

hmm yeah well thats the first place to look is the ignition but if it's good then i dont know. poping through the carb means lean and it is a soft pop compared to a
hard pop from the exaust.

what rev limiter chip do you have in it??? it will start to miss 500rpm before the rating on the chip some times put in a higher chip and see what happens. but you said it "clears up" after the misfire? hmmmm well what weights do you have in the dizz whats the advance curve? all advance in at 2500? or 4000 ect. might need a slower ramp if it momentarily happens then clears out at higher rpm. just some suggestions.

below is a statement from an msd Tech.


"Make sure the fist dial on the 6 is set to 2 for the 8-cyl engine. If this is set incorrectly the rev limiter will not work correctly. Another possibility is that the MSD unit is picking up noise on the power leads being that they not connected directly to the battery.

Also verify that the magnetic pickup leads are routed at least 6" away from any other wires running in parallel with them. These leads may be picking up interference if they are routed in parallel and within 6" of other leads carrying 12V or more."
__________________
MSD Tech Support
915-855-7123

GRM-REPR
04-16-2007, 02:28 PM
Yeah I'm pretty sure it's not the carb, I switched the Holley out for the E-brock to test to see if it made a difference, didn't. Besides, the power valves on the Holley I believe popped, due to a rusty dizzy (which is now replaced) and is sitting in my garage.

I believe the MSD box is NOT wired to the battery because it's in the trunk (previous owner) so I think he has it grounded and powered elsewhere, that I was told is NOT the way to do it. But when my younger bro owned this car, I can't exactly say it was doing this, unless it was and he accepted it.

Spool, its a 6A, no soft touch chips. I thought the magnetic pickup wires aren't used unless you have a crank-trigger dizzy?

GRM-REPR
04-16-2007, 02:29 PM
gurgling/bubblin = carb is WAY too fat. When you go WOT it probably isn't AS fat which is why it "clears up."



Problem isn't just WOT, a lot of times just idiling at the line and leaving normally it will ..babbaaabbaaa.....(sputter, stutter)....very annoying...:confused

juicedimpss
04-16-2007, 02:41 PM
so its not missing,its stumbling....
its in the carb.

Nix
04-16-2007, 02:53 PM
This all started back last year, I can't remember exactly when. the Holley on the car was brand new out of the box when I got it and then the I believe the power valves went due to it backfireing a few times while I was trying to diagnose the problem.

The ignition coil replaced, wires ran the way they should be to my knowledge (execpt for the MSD box cause of the previous owner having the battery in the trunk) wires brand new, plugs brand new, dist brand new also MSD to match the other components.

After the new dist was introduced to the car is corrected the problem for sometime as far as I know. The Holley was a 650DP, if that wasnt drowning the motor I don't see how the Ebrock could be doing it. Back when the motor was rebuilt it orignally had a Holley 700 on it and I cant remember if it was a DP or not, but the car ran fine with it on there. I switched it out for a 650 cause I didn't want to take a chance of "washing the bearings" in the motor and whiping it out with too much fuel. After the 650DP was put on the car was great for the rest of the summer it was on there. Then when the car was brought out next year it was fine with no issues and then all of a sudden this came up out of no where.

The thing is when it did come up nothing else was changed before hand that may have some how screwed anyhting else up. Its pretty crazy and Im actually at a loss for ideas on how this is happening.

What we should do Jon is see if anyone on here would be willing to stop out and we all put our brains togther and try to figure this out once and for all man.

juicedimpss
04-16-2007, 03:04 PM
drive it over and a few of us can listen to it

jbiscuit
04-16-2007, 03:21 PM
Problem isn't just WOT, a lot of times just idiling at the line and leaving normally it will ..babbaaabbaaa.....(sputter, stutter)....very annoying...:confused

re-read what I wrote. the primaries are jetted too fat I'd bet....which is why when you stand on it and the secondaries come in, it runs better....that would tell me that the secondaries are tuned somewhat decent.

ITS THE TUNING IN THE CARB

do some google research on how to tune out the off-idle stumble. Also don't think the carb is too big....I have a Holley 750 on my little 327 :)

Prince Valiant
04-16-2007, 04:08 PM
I'm betting that the idle mixture is probably what's most off...have you ever tried adjusting the idle mixture screws?

MurphysLaw88GT
04-16-2007, 06:10 PM
so its not missing,its stumbling....
its in the carb.

:thumbsup :thumbsup

GRM-REPR
04-16-2007, 08:06 PM
To address most of you, the dizzy was replaced and it fixed the backfiring and killing issue.

Then I bought the car from my lil bro and it never seemed to run "right" since. It got so bad it would kill coming to a stop, and WOT on the freeway once made it run like total shit, when I got off the freeway to pull over, it killed. Everytime I tried to start it cold, it would flood. So I took it to Hopson in Waukesha (my buddy knows the owner pretty good), and he found a bent float. It still didn't run right eventually.

So then I took the Holley off to see how it would run with the E-brock on it (700cfm), and I thought it felt better. But the more I would drive it it would still exhibit the sputter off the line, backfire under half accel. Once I got it on the freeway yesterday it purred just f'n fine:confused.

I can see why some of you think it's carb, but the only reason the Holley came off is cuz the p. valves are blown from a few good backfires thru the carb from when the dizzy was bad.

An E-brock carb is easy to tune, I have it a bit on the lean side with an idle that purrs at 825rpm hot. But then again, I'm not a master carb tuner, so maybe its off like Juiced said. No one seemed to agree with the rollers being a bit out of adjustment.

So I guess I'm thinkin', what would be the chances of 2 carbs being bungled up? The E-brock has idle miles on it, never driven, basically brand new!

I would appreciate it if someone wanted me to stop out close by and putz with it, but remember, it seems to have a mind of its own. Some good help from some bcm'ers would be nice:headbang

Thanks for the replies so far, keep them coming.....:thumbsup

Prince Valiant
04-17-2007, 01:48 PM
Well, most would agree that trying to dx a car over the internet can be pretty dificult just because how one describes and one interpets a problem can be vastly different. I'd suggest actually bringing it over to someones place...if you can get to someone elses sooner, fine...but if not, I could probably look at it on sunday morning at my house.

GRM-REPR
04-17-2007, 10:02 PM
Yeah I'm starting to think carb now too. I took it back to storage and trompt on it hard, it sorta did a Q-jet bog and burp, then hauled pretty good, as I kept the throttle thru all gears it never missed a step.

I was talking to my younger bro and he drove it today and said it never did any of this before. Just seems like ever since I put the new dizzy in, it started doing this.

I checked out the wiring for the MSD box, the black and ornage wires were by the coil wire, and the power wire for the MSD. The previous owner has the MSD main ground going to the back of the pass side head, and it appears he has the main power wire going to the f'n starter wire?!?!?!?!

Stupid moron, I will need a couple of hours just to re-wire it the right way.

I may take some of you guy's up on your offer to help me tune this sucker right, as long as there is no rain. Will keep thread updated.

Thanks again. Jon....

Reverend Cooper
04-17-2007, 10:27 PM
Check the plugs, find out if you are running lean/rich on a random cyl. Then check the timing. Check a ground that may be lose.

If all else fails put an LT1 in it. Its not that hard.

coming from the guy that has ron fix everything for him lolololj/k myles:banana1:

juicedimpss
04-18-2007, 11:19 AM
how much intial timing are you running?you may want to tighten the curve and add more initial to it.

GRM-REPR
04-18-2007, 12:00 PM
how much intial timing are you running?you may want to tighten the curve and add more initial to it.

If you're talking about what weight springs are in the dizzy, they are the ones that came stock installed in it, never played with the other springs.

You may also have a point here.

Just seems like ever since installing the new dizzy, it's been doing this goofy shit....:confused

Nix
04-18-2007, 12:08 PM
whats the "dyer zone" may I ask?:rolf

Flight_740
04-18-2007, 12:25 PM
Nick ripped you off. Ask him for your money back.:rolf

Nix
04-18-2007, 12:33 PM
Nick ripped you off. Ask him for your money back.:rolf

Sssshhhhhh Mike, dont give it up dude:durr

GRM-REPR
04-18-2007, 12:35 PM
Nick ripped you off. Ask him for your money back.:rolf

:banana1:

Prince Valiant
04-18-2007, 01:35 PM
If you're talking about what weight springs are in the dizzy, they are the ones that came stock installed in it, never played with the other springs.

You may also have a point here.

Just seems like ever since installing the new dizzy, it's been doing this goofy shit....:confused
What he's asking is what is your initial timing now (9-14 degrees BTDC), Your total (32-36 degrees BTDC) at full advance, and then what rpm you see your full advance by (ie, it stops advancing at 2600 rpm, etc)

GRM-REPR
04-18-2007, 01:44 PM
What he's asking is what is your initial timing now (9-14 degrees BTDC), Your total (32-36 degrees BTDC) at full advance, and then what rpm you see your full advance by (ie, it stops advancing at 2600 rpm, etc)

I belive the springs in the dizzy now give 15* advance, plus a base of roughly 8*/9*, so about 23/24* total timing. That was all set last Sept, and I may be off a bit. It is not a vac advance dizzy, it's Mech advance.

I came on here last year and asked where the base should be set at, so it's set to about where everyone agreed to.

Prince Valiant
04-18-2007, 01:57 PM
imo, you probably would want a total of around 34-38...probably want it all in by 2400 rpm too.

GRM-REPR
05-13-2007, 04:07 PM
Update, my timing advance was way too low for this dizzy, I asked everyone here and the consensus was 8-10* base. Turns out I need to start at 20* base and play on the edge after that.

So I set it to 20* base, and futzed with the idle screws, it is a lot better, but it still acts goofy when it feels like it. Then I backed it into my storage unit and the engine had a small backfire out the the pipe (don't know which side) and I just got frustrated again. I put a new set of MSD wires on (thanks 25thanniversary) and thought it couldnt hurt. I put the tach wire to the MSD box (other owner thought it was a good idea to route a wire outside the car thru the cowl instead of putting into the box which is 2' away inside the car) and noticed I got "zapped" by the positive coil tower. I figure this shouldn't be normal, why would this happen? Everything on this engine is new, including all ignition components?

So I think I have all the issues solved (super hot plug wires, high engine temp, and the repeated destruction of the #6 cyl wire). I was told all this was caused by the timing being too retarded, and the car seems much better. It still stumbles a bit, and is boggy when I blip the gas while driving (carb i guess), 2k and under while cruising when it warms up causes a bucking issue.
Thoughts??????

GRM-REPR
05-16-2007, 04:40 PM
Turns out also that the dizzy had the original curve springs still in it, it's my first time with one of these dizzy's. So I put the blue one/ and light silver one in it. Then I'm looming my wires and find a fuel leak at the hose going into the carb, don't know how long that has been going on.

juicedimpss
05-16-2007, 04:43 PM
bring it by and i will look at it for ya,much easier to troubleshoot when its in front of you sometimes.

GRM-REPR
05-16-2007, 04:52 PM
bring it by and i will look at it for ya,much easier to troubleshoot when its in front of you sometimes.

I would, if it ran better. You and I had some miscommunications last time, didn't think you were interested anymore.:shades

juicedimpss
05-16-2007, 04:57 PM
I would, if it ran better. You and I had some miscommunications last time, didn't think you were interested anymore.:shades

we did ? :confused

HITMAN
05-20-2007, 01:42 AM
Here's what you need to do to get your timing situation sorted out.

You need to find your true TDC. Here's a good method (http://www.wikihow.com/Find-Your-Engine's-Top-Dead-Center-(TDC)). Then you need to put some timing tape on your dampener (unless it's already been degreed, of course...;) ) with the TDC mark at your actual TDC. After this is done, put springs in your distributer that will give you full mechanical advance by 3500 rpms. Now get your timing light out and either you with a tach you can read from the engine compartment or a buddy in the drivers seat bring the engine revs to about 4500 (just to make sure that your advance is all in) and check your total timing. With the engine you have (SBC) and without knowing what your compression and cam timing are, a good ballpark figure for your total timing would probably be somewhere in the 36° to 40° range. Start off with setting your total timing at 38° and if it pings audibly then you can back it until it quits. If not, then leave it until you can either:
A) make some passes at the strip B) use a chassis dyno, or C) some sort of performance meter (G-Tech, MSD Dashhawk, etc.) to ascertain through some trial and error what your best timing actually is. My guess is it wont be any less than 32° total timing, no matter what (unless you are using some sort of power adder). If it pings on more than that than you should be using something like Torco fuel accelerator or mixing in a little race gas to boost your octane.

Next up...that Edelbrock carb you're using, it's basically a Carter carb with a polish job. Eh, whatever. I never saw anything that wouldn't run harder on a Holley than anything else. JMO.

As for your idea that that 700 would have washed the cylinders, not really. All the rating of the carb is, is how many CFM of air it could theoretically pass at 1.5"HG pressure drop. It has nothing to do with how much fuel is passed. That is of a function of jetting/signal strength, not air flow potential. In this case though, if you go by this How-To (http://www.holley.com/data/TechService/Technical/Selecting%20A%20Carburetor.pdf) you're actually right on for sizing.

BTW, I think you're too lean on the carb settings. Check your plugs. If they're white, you're way lean. If they're black and sooty looking, you're fat. Both conditions could cause some of your issues, but my guess would be lean. Bogging on tip in is usually from not having enough accerator pump shot and surging and bucking at a cruise would suggest a lean conditon, as well. Like I said, check your plugs.

I hope some of this info helps you out with your situation.

Waver
05-20-2007, 02:07 AM
somthing tells me that this is a fuel problem....just my two cents

GRM-REPR
05-20-2007, 10:42 PM
Here's what you need to do to get your timing situation sorted out.

You need to find your true TDC. Here's a good method (http://www.wikihow.com/Find-Your-Engine's-Top-Dead-Center-(TDC)). Then you need to put some timing tape on your dampener (unless it's already been degreed, of course...;) ) with the TDC mark at your actual TDC. After this is done, put springs in your distributer that will give you full mechanical advance by 3500 rpms. Now get your timing light out and either you with a tach you can read from the engine compartment or a buddy in the drivers seat bring the engine revs to about 4500 (just to make sure that your advance is all in) and check your total timing. With the engine you have (SBC) and without knowing what your compression and cam timing are, a good ballpark figure for your total timing would probably be somewhere in the 36° to 40° range. Start off with setting your total timing at 38° and if it pings audibly then you can back it until it quits. If not, then leave it until you can either:
A) make some passes at the strip B) use a chassis dyno, or C) some sort of performance meter (G-Tech, MSD Dashhawk, etc.) to ascertain through some trial and error what your best timing actually is. My guess is it wont be any less than 32° total timing, no matter what (unless you are using some sort of power adder). If it pings on more than that than you should be using something like Torco fuel accelerator or mixing in a little race gas to boost your octane.

Next up...that Edelbrock carb you're using, it's basically a Carter carb with a polish job. Eh, whatever. I never saw anything that wouldn't run harder on a Holley than anything else. JMO.

As for your idea that that 700 would have washed the cylinders, not really. All the rating of the carb is, is how many CFM of air it could theoretically pass at 1.5"HG pressure drop. It has nothing to do with how much fuel is passed. That is of a function of jetting/signal strength, not air flow potential. In this case though, if you go by this How-To (http://www.holley.com/data/TechService/Technical/Selecting%20A%20Carburetor.pdf) you're actually right on for sizing.

BTW, I think you're too lean on the carb settings. Check your plugs. If they're white, you're way lean. If they're black and sooty looking, you're fat. Both conditions could cause some of your issues, but my guess would be lean. Bogging on tip in is usually from not having enough accerator pump shot and surging and bucking at a cruise would suggest a lean conditon, as well. Like I said, check your plugs.

I hope some of this info helps you out with your situation.

Thats some pretty good info. I ended up putting a blue spring and silver spring into the dizzy to get 21* of initial timing, and put it to roughly 13* at the balancer to achieve about 34* total timing. My friend went through my Holley I originally had on the car before putting the E-Brock (turns out it was a 750cfm), so I was able to get that back on the engine Thursday (turns out the Holley did have a blown power valve, and it is a 650 double pumper). I followed his directions as to "tuning" the carb. I drove it, it still has like (hard to describe), a flat spot when sitting at a light, and then accelerating. I roughly have the screws almost a half turn out from the engine running rough. I was told to turn each one back out about another half turn.

I took it to Automotion, Friday, and everything was fine, until I got off the freeway. It ran like shit and I knew I was out a cylinder, at a light, when I started to accelerate, it had a small backfire out the pipe. (Don't know if you have been following the thread, but I've been burning the #6 spark plug boot, it's way to close to the header tube), so I checked it at the hotel and it burned again. I didn't trust it before I left so I brought a couple boots just in case:thumbsup. I almost feel like the boot is "rattling/vibrating" off the spark plug. After putting the new one on, it was fine all day. When we left this morning, it was running goofy. I checked the boot again, and it was just hanging on the plug again. I reconnected it and for once, I heard the snap when it has been connected. The whole way home on the freeway it was making a (again, hard to describe), a sort of bubbly noise out the pipes, (not a backfire or pop). I can't explain it, I checked the boot and it was fine. It almost seemed like a surge while driving? Not so much a bucking feeling, but definitely not right.

Sorry for the long story, but I'm wondering if I fouled the #6 plug (the engine seemed fine on the freeway on Friday at about 3,300rpms the whole way), I doubt the boot decided to fall off just as I got off the freeway.

I will try your ideas for shooting the timing, and I think I will richen the mixture screws just a bit.

Thanks for your reply:thumbsup, and thanks Chris (Prince Valiant) for your info, it was very helpful, and spot on right.

MurphysLaw88GT
05-21-2007, 05:37 PM
distributer

:rolf:rolf:rolf:rolf:rolf:rolf:rolf:rolf:rolf:rolf :rolf

HITMAN
05-21-2007, 09:56 PM
:rolf:rolf:rolf:rolf:rolf:rolf:rolf:rolf:rolf:rolf :rolf

I'm not quite sure what you are laughing at. There are two ways to spell the word, I just chose the more obscure of the two. My spelling of it not only passes spell check but it is listed in numerous dictionaries. :durr

The thing I was driving at when I highlighted the word was to try and get away from the term "dizzy". It's a term ricers use, like Naaaaaaawwwsssss, and it's a pet peeve of mine. But that's OK if you choose to laugh. I know what I know and it's obvious that I know a bit more than you... ;)

distributer

noun
1. someone who markets merchandise [syn: distributor]
2. electrical device that distributes voltage to the spark plugs of a gasoline engine in the order of the firing sequence [syn: distributor]

WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.

HITMAN
05-21-2007, 10:20 PM
Thats some pretty good info. I ended up putting a blue spring and silver spring into the dizzy to get 21* of initial timing, and put it to roughly 13* at the balancer to achieve about 34* total timing. My friend went through my Holley I originally had on the car before putting the E-Brock (turns out it was a 750cfm), so I was able to get that back on the engine Thursday (turns out the Holley did have a blown power valve, and it is a 650 double pumper). I followed his directions as to "tuning" the carb. I drove it, it still has like (hard to describe), a flat spot when sitting at a light, and then accelerating. I roughly have the screws almost a half turn out from the engine running rough. I was told to turn each one back out about another half turn.

I took it to Automotion, Friday, and everything was fine, until I got off the freeway. It ran like shit and I knew I was out a cylinder, at a light, when I started to accelerate, it had a small backfire out the pipe. (Don't know if you have been following the thread, but I've been burning the #6 spark plug boot, it's way to close to the header tube), so I checked it at the hotel and it burned again. I didn't trust it before I left so I brought a couple boots just in case:thumbsup. I almost feel like the boot is "rattling/vibrating" off the spark plug. After putting the new one on, it was fine all day. When we left this morning, it was running goofy. I checked the boot again, and it was just hanging on the plug again. I reconnected it and for once, I heard the snap when it has been connected. The whole way home on the freeway it was making a (again, hard to describe), a sort of bubbly noise out the pipes, (not a backfire or pop). I can't explain it, I checked the boot and it was fine. It almost seemed like a surge while driving? Not so much a bucking feeling, but definitely not right.

Sorry for the long story, but I'm wondering if I fouled the #6 plug (the engine seemed fine on the freeway on Friday at about 3,300rpms the whole way), I doubt the boot decided to fall off just as I got off the freeway.

I will try your ideas for shooting the timing, and I think I will richen the mixture screws just a bit.

Thanks for your reply:thumbsup, and thanks Chris (Prince Valiant) for your info, it was very helpful, and spot on right.

So what carb is on the car right now? Maybe I can help you out, but I'm primarily familiar with Holley's, so I'll need to know. Also, if it is a Holley, does it have mechanical secondaries (double-pumper) or does it have vacuum secondaries? Does it have four corner idle mixture screws or just the two on the primary metering block? How much camshaft are you running? Does this car have a manual transmission or does it have an automatic? If it has an automatic, what is the converter stall speed? How much rear gear does the car have?

As for your burning spark plug wire boots: Get a large diameter socket that you care too much about. (A 1" Chinese impact socket will do nicely.) Go pull the plug you suspect might be fouled. Now put the socket in the approximate location of the burning boots, and smack it on the side with a BFH. You will be dimpling the header tube, but it will be a fairly gentle radius and shouldn't effect performance. Keep at it until you have a noticeable dimple, but don't get crazy and smash the pipe half-way shut. You'll want it dimpled maybe .125", just enough to get you some much needed clearance, but not enough to effect exhaust flow. I had to use this technique on my 511. There wasn't a lot of clearance with full sized plugs and 2.25" primary pipes...:wow

GRM-REPR
05-22-2007, 09:42 AM
So what carb is on the car right now? Maybe I can help you out, but I'm primarily familiar with Holley's, so I'll need to know. Also, if it is a Holley, does it have mechanical secondaries (double-pumper) or does it have vacuum secondaries? Does it have four corner idle mixture screws or just the two on the primary metering block? How much camshaft are you running? Does this car have a manual transmission or does it have an automatic? If it has an automatic, what is the converter stall speed? How much rear gear does the car have?

As for your burning spark plug wire boots: Get a large diameter socket that you care too much about. (A 1" Chinese impact socket will do nicely.) Go pull the plug you suspect might be fouled. Now put the socket in the approximate location of the burning boots, and smack it on the side with a BFH. You will be dimpling the header tube, but it will be a fairly gentle radius and shouldn't effect performance. Keep at it until you have a noticeable dimple, but don't get crazy and smash the pipe half-way shut. You'll want it dimpled maybe .125", just enough to get you some much needed clearance, but not enough to effect exhaust flow. I had to use this technique on my 511. There wasn't a lot of clearance with full sized plugs and 2.25" primary pipes...:wow

It's a Holley double pumper (650), mechanical secondaries, auto trans, 2 corner adjustment on primaries, sadly no cam info, supposedly engine rebuilders put in a 2,300 rpm stall converter into it when the engine was rebuilt. MSD mechanical distributor (didn't know dizzy was a ricer term, i've been using it for years from corral.net when i had a mustang).

I wouldn't be able to notch the tube that way, there would be no way it would benefit the closeness. The problem with the boot is that the header tube is directly in front of the plug. With the header wrap I put on it, I can barely put a credit card inbetween the tube and the boot. It is hard as hell to even put the boot on. I have to trim a bit of the female boot end off, just to get the boot onto it.

I am just going to get new headers, I'm sick of dealing with it. Hooker Competition, that explains it all. Chris (Prince Valiant) may be stopping out today for assistance. Can't believe I went to the Dells with it running goofy like this.

HITMAN
05-23-2007, 01:24 AM
Maybe the term is just what you younger guys use, I don't know, but I saw it plastered all over Hondatech when I was researching a project I have since shit-canned. I just took it as some ricer bullshit. Whatever...

Valiant's suggestion on your advance curve is right on. You want it as early as possible, provided the engine doesn't ping.

Too bad about your headers, as replacements are never cheap and they certainly are no fun to install.

It sounds to me like to may have the primary throttle blades open just far enough to uncover the idle transfer slots. It's easy to do and it can lead to a slight off-idle stumble such as you describe. You can fiddle around with opening up the secondary throttle blade stop so that the car will idle at speed while leaving the primary closed enough to keep it from stumbling, but for the sake of expediency, I would just use a larger primary pump squirter nozzle. If you decide to change nozzles, then go up three sizes. Example: If the primary nozzle is stamped "28" then you are going to want a "31". This will supply fuel to the engine sooner and should help cover up a lean stumble. It's not truest way to tune but it will get you going toward a fix sooner than fiddling around with the idle transfer circuit will.

GRM-REPR
05-23-2007, 10:20 AM
Well I appreciate all the members who tried to help. P. Valiant came over and he laid a vast amount of knowledge onto me about the set up I have, and tuning a Holley better with a vac gauge.

We ended up setting the base timing to roughly 18* with 21* initial. He showed me how to tune the primary adjustment screws and idle screw. The stumble seems gone for the most part, although it slightly did it when I put it away.

Looks like I'd be much better off with a vacuum advance dist, and a vacuum secondary carb. I wish I would've known that before everyone (no one on this site) told me to get a mechanical dist on the car. I basically just replaced what was on there with an updated part number.

Anyone out there want to trade a vac dist, and vac secondary carb for a mech carb and a Holley 650 double???:shades

Thanks again for all the help.:thumbsup

juicedimpss
05-23-2007, 10:37 AM
Well I appreciate all the members who tried to help. P. Valiant came over and he laid a vast amount of knowledge onto me about the set up I have, and tuning a Holley better with a vac gauge.

We ended up setting the base timing to roughly 18* with 21* initial. He showed me how to tune the primary adjustment screws and idle screw. The stumble seems gone for the most part, although it slightly did it when I put it away.

Looks like I'd be much better off with a vacuum advance dist, and a vacuum secondary carb. I wish I would've known that before everyone (no one on this site) told me to get a mechanical dist on the car. I basically just replaced what was on there with an updated part number.

Anyone out there want to trade a vac dist, and vac secondary carb for a mech carb and a Holley 650 double???:shades

Thanks again for all the help.:thumbsup

i bet i have a few HEI's and good q-jets laying around
:thumbsup

GRM-REPR
05-23-2007, 11:38 AM
q-jets :thumbsup

:durr

juicedimpss
05-23-2007, 11:40 AM
:durr

ive gone into the 1s with a q-jet,at well over 4000lb race weight
:thumbsup

GRM-REPR
05-23-2007, 11:43 AM
ive gone into the 1s with a q-jet,at well over 4000lb race weight
:thumbsup

I know for a fact you know your carb stuff MUCH better than I do, however, I'm not willing to trade a Holley for a Q-Jet. I remember those carbs from when I used to have carbed' setups, and I said I'd never deal with them again.

juicedimpss
05-23-2007, 11:45 AM
I know for a fact you know your carb stuff MUCH better than I do, however, I'm not willing to trade a Holley for a Q-Jet. I remember those carbs from when I used to have carbed' setups, and I said I'd never deal with them again.

to each is own,id personally rather have a jet than a small holley,anything less than a dominator.

GRM-REPR
05-23-2007, 11:47 AM
to each is own,id personally rather have a jet than a small holley,anything less than a dominator.

So what are you running on your Imp?

Flight_740
05-23-2007, 11:49 AM
So what are you running on your Imp?


I think it's back to stock now??? Fuel injected.

juicedimpss
05-23-2007, 11:50 AM
So what are you running on your Imp?

the imp is injected,the next imp will have a dom

GRM-REPR
05-23-2007, 11:54 AM
the imp is injected,the next imp will have a dom

It was revealed to me that the current setup I have is too finicky, so I'm trying to see if anyone has the necessary components to make the engine run the way I thought it would've with the stuff on there now.

I'm really not interested in racing the car at all, or looking for the fastest time. I would just like it to be more smooth like F.I. I seem to have gotten a lot of bad advice (again, no one here is involved).

I wish I knew about all this garbage before. Oh well, live and learn.:)

Prince Valiant
05-23-2007, 02:23 PM
It sounds to me like to may have the primary throttle blades open just far enough to uncover the idle transfer slots. It's easy to do and it can lead to a slight off-idle stumble such as you describe. You can fiddle around with opening up the secondary throttle blade stop so that the car will idle at speed while leaving the primary closed enough to keep it from stumbling, but for the sake of expediency, I would just use a larger primary pump squirter nozzle. This is basically what was going on...

With the initial timing off, and the idle speed adjustment screw set too high, the transfer slots were exposed leading to poor performance.

We did set it at 18* initial and things were really clearing up witht that alone. Got the idle down from ~950 to ~700rpm's or so, then cut the car off. Put the idle mixture screws all the way in on both sides and backed each out exactly 2 turns...so that we knew we were at the same starting point for each screw. From there, using the vac gauge just made minor adjustments until highest vacuum was recorded, and onto the next screw...until best setting was acheived.

Car is a nice car, and has a great sound. Cam doesn't seem all too wild, as the engine pulls ~ 14 inches of vacuum in nuetral.

We did talk about going through and working with the accelerator pumps, etc, however, based on his goals and usage I felt that his best option was to just go with vacuum secondary holley for streetability and sacrifice a little performance. As well, I also think he could benifit from a vacuum advance distributer as again, per his goals and his moderate cam, gears, driving style, he'd gain some advantages getting some increased advance on the hwy and while cruising around...

It was nice meeting you jon :thumbsup
That's a great car you've got there too...

Flight_740
05-23-2007, 02:27 PM
He's a big S.O.B. huh?

Prince Valiant
05-23-2007, 02:31 PM
He might be an inch taller than me...probably has a good 30-40 lbs on me though, lol.

Nix
05-23-2007, 04:21 PM
He's a big S.O.B. huh?


Hes a big piece of shit! :rolf:rolf:D

Flight_740
05-23-2007, 04:23 PM
Hes a big piece of shit! :rolf:rolf:D

I wanted to say that but he's bigger than me.:rolf:rolf:rolf



Just playin john.

GRM-REPR
05-23-2007, 04:43 PM
Hes a big piece of shit! :rolf:rolf:D

You are no longer my brother......:banana1:

Nix
05-23-2007, 05:34 PM
You are no longer my brother......:banana1:

What and you think I asked or like being related to you??:goof:durr

HITMAN
05-23-2007, 09:20 PM
This is basically what was going on...

With the initial timing off, and the idle speed adjustment screw set too high, the transfer slots were exposed leading to poor performance.

We did set it at 18* initial and things were really clearing up witht that alone. Got the idle down from ~950 to ~700rpm's or so, then cut the car off. Put the idle mixture screws all the way in on both sides and backed each out exactly 2 turns...so that we knew we were at the same starting point for each screw. From there, using the vac gauge just made minor adjustments until highest vacuum was recorded, and onto the next screw...until best setting was acheived.

Car is a nice car, and has a great sound. Cam doesn't seem all too wild, as the engine pulls ~ 14 inches of vacuum in nuetral.

We did talk about going through and working with the accelerator pumps, etc, however, based on his goals and usage I felt that his best option was to just go with vacuum secondary holley for streetability and sacrifice a little performance. As well, I also think he could benifit from a vacuum advance distributer as again, per his goals and his moderate cam, gears, driving style, he'd gain some advantages getting some increased advance on the hwy and while cruising around...

It was nice meeting you jon :thumbsup
That's a great car you've got there too...

When my RR had iron heads I used to run an old Holley 950 3bbl. :wow That old dinosaur was a vacuum secondary carb that I really like but it was lazy down low. I put the big 50cc pump on it and played with pump cam and nozzle sizes. Once I got it dialed in, it would 60' like my 750 DP but it made about 2 more mph on the big end, so IDK if I'd say that he'd be sacrificing any performance over that 650, provided someone walks him through the tuning process.

Put the lightest secondary spring in the car that will support WOT without bogging and tune that accelerator pump to within an inch of it's life and it will kill that 650, in both performance and mileage. I also concur with the choice of a vacuum advance distributer over the mechanical. That extra part throttle advance along with the stronger metering signal being applied to the primary main circuit will really help him out at cruising speeds. Good choices.

HITMAN
05-23-2007, 09:37 PM
good q-jets

:rolf

There are no good Q-Jets. There are only Q-Jets that are totally out of adjustment and already in the scrap heap and those waiting to go out of adjustment and their turn at the scrap heap...:thumbsup

Ron, I know you had a lot of success running those old reprobate carbs, but lets not forget that the ETs and speeds you were running weren't exactly made on nuts. The gas will cover up a lot of poor N/A choices...http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_tongue.gif


While I agree with the concept, the actual carburetor itself leaves a lot to be desired. The Carter Thermoquad was a much better and newer design based on the tiny primary/huge secondary philosophy but it was attached to a lot of shitty Lean-Burn Chrysler junk and never had the fan base that the GM stuff developed.

juicedimpss
05-24-2007, 10:47 AM
hitman,drivability was absolutely wonderful...even with a cam in the 240-250 @ 050 range.after tuned it worked flawless and anyone who didnt know better thought it had a holley on it.it still also managed 12 mpg average...with a 8" convertor.

GRM-REPR
05-24-2007, 12:43 PM
hitman,drivability was absolutely wonderful...even with a cam in the 240-250 @ 050 range.after tuned it worked flawless and anyone who didnt know better thought it had a holley on it.it still also managed 12 mpg average...with a 8" convertor.

What the hell is the bangbus if you don't mind me asking?

Flight_740
05-24-2007, 12:44 PM
www.bangbus.com

dont open at work.

GRM-REPR
05-24-2007, 12:47 PM
www.bangbus.com

dont open at work.

I should've guessed:D

juicedimpss
05-24-2007, 12:50 PM
What the hell is the bangbus if you don't mind me asking?

thats my suburban.
:thumbsup

Flight_740
05-24-2007, 12:54 PM
Let me know when you need a new filmer.

GRM-REPR
05-24-2007, 12:54 PM
thats my suburban.
:thumbsup

:headbang

HITMAN
05-24-2007, 09:27 PM
hitman,drivability was absolutely wonderful...even with a cam in the 240-250 @ 050 range.after tuned it worked flawless and anyone who didnt know better thought it had a holley on it.it still also managed 12 mpg average...with a 8" convertor.

An 8" converter can cover up a lot of little driveability issues...;)

Oh the Q-Jets I worked on would be fine... for a while. Then they'd go psycho and I'd have to tear into them again. The goddamn things are just to hard to work on for someone as impatient as I am. Every little shittin' thing is on the inside. I got to hate those fvcking things in short order. Holley's are just easier to diagnose and work on. I like simple, uncomplicated things. That's why am still friends with you...:D

juicedimpss
05-25-2007, 10:07 AM
An 8" converter can cover up a lot of little driveability issues...;)

Oh the Q-Jets I worked on would be fine... for a while. Then they'd go psycho and I'd have to tear into them again. The goddamn things are just to hard to work on for someone as impatient as I am. Every little shittin' thing is on the inside. I got to hate those fvcking things in short order. Holley's are just easier to diagnose and work on. I like simple, uncomplicated things. That's why am still friends with you...:D

last i checked,the jets and PV were also inside on a holley.yeah the jet is a lil more of a pain to tune but in reality once you get it sorted out its muchless finicky than even a holley and honestly is a much more efficient carb.the holley is a simpler design and pretty much any hillbilly can throw jets at it to mask drivability issues it inherntlly has.

HITMAN
05-25-2007, 02:15 PM
Well I'll tell ya sumpin lil hippy boy, me n ma holly 'll run cleen o'er the top o yu n yer kwadrajunk enee ol' time ya'll like... :durr

http://people.lulu.com/storage/users/512/5512/images/25151/hillbilly%20jim%20miller%20black%20teeth%20cropped .gif

GRM-REPR
05-26-2007, 11:06 AM
Well I'll tell ya sumpin lil hippy boy, me n ma holly 'll run cleen o'er the top o yu n yer kwadrajunk enee ol' time ya'll like... :durr

http://people.lulu.com/storage/users/512/5512/images/25151/hillbilly%20jim%20miller%20black%20teeth%20cropped .gif

I see you found a pic of me.....you could've asked before posting:rolleyes:.

Chris got the car going pretty smooth, so I took it to GLD on Friday. I wasn't looking for much out of it, but I can't say I was excited. I doesn't pull for shit over 4k, and no traction off the line. My 60' times were a putrid 2.28 and high 2.1's....:durr:chair:

All it really has is a cam, intake, and some gears. I would like to get a set of aluminum heads or a super charger eventually......:headbang

GRM-REPR
05-31-2007, 10:12 AM
Please tell me there is no difference between an Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, and an Edelbrock Performer RPM Qudrajet intake. I never noticed it before, but it's in raised letters:rolleyes: It has the Q-Jet version.

Just wondering if could have anything to do with the reason why the engine doesn't pull for shit over 4k?

Engine Rebuilders put the wrong number intake on I guess in 04'.?

juicedimpss
05-31-2007, 10:19 AM
Please tell me there is no difference between an Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, and an Edelbrock Performer RPM Qudrajet intake. I never noticed it before, but it's in raised letters:rolleyes: It has the Q-Jet version.

Just wondering if could have anything to do with the reason why the engine doesn't pull for shit over 4k?

Engine Rebuilders put the wrong number intake on I guess in 04'.?

the q-jet model will have the spreadbore pattern on it,otherwise should be the same .

GRM-REPR
05-31-2007, 10:21 AM
Thats the only thing I could figure, it's not the model we told them to put on it, but it works I suppose.