I can tell the future

[TransAm12sec]

I can tell the future, or maybe I can just observe things.

Posted 11-04-2004,
"One problem is, GTOs are not selling well, as far as I know. I could imagine them stoping production due to lack of sales."

http://brewcitymuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?p=52422#post52422

[Poncho]

gee if that were the reason, you'd be on to something but you're not.

[/end thread]

random rants by people below...........

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Wrong, GM dropped it after 3 years because that's how long they originally contracted with Holden to produce the Monaro/GTO for. Pontiac would have been happy to have it for another year or two, but the GTO did not meet federal air bag standards for MY2007 cars. I also think Holden wanted to get out of VZ coupe production entirely, as part of the conversion to VE (though I know they still build the VZ Ute yet - dunno about Adventra).

We were supposed to have a replacement for the GTO, built here in North America, for MY2007/2008, but that got derailed due to cost concerns and GM's financial crisis in late 2004/early 2005. GM is on track with a RWD platform and assembly plant again; but Pontiac's future model lineup is in upheaval. No one knows if we'll see a GTO concept, much less production car, in the future.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmustang...

2nd was an absolutely ****eyed delivery schedule that was exacerbated by riduculous transport delays from the point of manufacture to the end user. Order a car and wait 6-7 mos. for it-insane! American consumers are not on an Australian model year timeframe and are unreceptive to excuses about delays. 05 GTOs were not seen in this area until Feb. of 05-inexcuseable and sales crushing. How do you convince a potential buyer in Nov. of 05 that the 05s were the current model year when virtually everything else current is an 06. That marketing strategy was D.O.A.

Yes, this was retarded. Taking into account the three months from build to dealer delivery, the GTO's should have started production earlier (like, maybe, June). I know this wasn't possible for '04 but they should darn well have started building '05's earlier than they did ('04 production ran from September '03-August '04 - almost 11 months).

Of course, they pushed the car to come out in 2004 without the hood scoops and separated dual exhaust and LS2 motor, because they wanted something to sell for the GTO's 40th anniversary. In retrospect, they should have waited until all cars could get those upgrades...

Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkickin...

Consumers saw the "new age" GTO for what it really was - a rebadged Monaro that was long-in-the-tooth already. Consumers today aren't just looking for an Australian Tempest with a monster engine - Bob Lutz realizes that now.

I strongly disagree with this. Most consumers, frankly, don't know their head from their *ss (ask anyone who works with the public all day as part of their job, they'll tell you). What percentage of the public knows our cars are imported from Australia? VERY few.

The GTO launch was botched horribly. Dealerships got the cars based on their sales volume - this meant that dealerships in the upper Midwest, somewhat of a Pontiac stronghold, got the cars first... in the middle of winter.

Many of the classic GTO owners started bashing the car as soon as they saw it because it didn't look like their '69 Judge. Then, the car magazines jumped on that bandwagon, and trashed the car for its looks and non-retro styling. Remember, some of that was due to GM calling out a magazine (Car and Driver?) for crashing their demo during a race? Styling is subjective and the GTO, no matter how much some of us might like it, was not distinctive/"in-your-face" enough for most people (forgetting that the original '64 GTO was the ultimate sleeper - family car with a big motor).

Let's not leave the dealerships out of this. They screwed the pooch by putting ridiculous $5k-$10k markups on the car. I looked at/sat in a GTO in January/February of 2004. Loved the interior (other than hitting my head), but didn't even think about asking for a drive because I didn't want to pay/couldn't afford the mark-up. Bought mine in August of '04 when the incentives had just started (they got $2500 cheaper 5 days after buying the car, and, to make matters worse, my first car was a lemon).

Then, there were the practical issues of gas mileage (my GTO gets better mileage than my wife's Envoy) and (lack of) trunk space. Pricing, too, was an issue - $33k was out of reach of a number of people. Lutz himself did take note that the car sales picked up when the price dropped to under $30k.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drmustang...

Production "limits" are based on the maximum # of units that can be sold without prohibitive cash to customer or retailer incentives. There is no such thing as a car whose production volume is purposely reduced to provide buyers with a rare model that has more buyers than availalble units.

Well, Holden could make a max of 18-20k GTO's to totally max out their production line (and they had to hire a whole third shift - about 1400 people - to do so. Sadly, they were never able to build that many cars - only about 16k '04's were produced in nearly 11 months of production). Maxing out a production line = more $$$ for the manufacturer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlsedition...

You can blame GM Marketing all you want, but if you had a line of performance cars to sell, all of which were > $30k price and were available in limited quantities, how much of your precious marketing dollars would you spend to promote the GTO? That's what I thought.

And Lutz et. al. thought they would have "no problem" selling 18-20k of these a year, at full retail. If you go into it expecting that result, why would you spend $$$ to market it, when you think dealers will happily take every one they can get their hands on? Oops. As you have said, rlsedition, GM did not test-market/clinic the car... and might have figured out that styling was going to be an issue if they had.

It really doesn't matter to me that the automotive press and consumers think the GTO is a failure. Those that don't get it have no clue of what they are missing. I'm happy I've got mine, and, if I had the $$$, I'd buy another as a "spare/backup" (my IT-geek nature rearing its head again...)

--Robert

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I did my research and I support what Judge This is saying about sales as far as the GTO go.

It was cancelled mostly because they didn't want to renew the GTO on a platform that is being replaced soon anyway.

The GTO was also intended to be a low density car to begin with; however, Pontiac did sell less than what they originally projected they would.

So that is where the confusion lies. Pontiac didn't make the original sales predictions, which is why they only made 12000 in 05-06 vice 17000 in 04. But the fact they only made 17000 in the first place means it wasn't supposed to be as big of a seller as the Mustang period. Sales did drop, probably because of the styling, but it was going to be axed regardless because of the new platforms under development.

I found all that info on edmunds.com which I believe to be a reliable source.

Finally 235 tires are bad enough on a Mustang GT, how the hell is a 235 tire supposed to hold back 400 ft-lbs from a GTO? Speaking of which, that is also why I think you see people who can't pull that 12 second time slip bone stock on the GTO. Too much spin on those little wheels. I've seen modded GTOs that can't crack 12s, again because of street tires.

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another rant....

First of all, this was a limited production import and "fully loaded" V8 cars only.

You can't compare the sales of the GTO to a mustang or charger or even the camaro.

The mustang will get more sales because there will be more trim levels with different options available. It also has the oh so wanted "retro" styling that is the trend today.

It's truer to the original, with all the styling ques, so the purists won't squeel like stuck pigs. The GTO had a huge amount of interest in anticipation of its arrival, but the bad pub killed it.

It wasn't until they discounted it. andded hood scoops, dual exhaust, and the dealers had to back off the markups that people finally got in one and liked it.

[Poncho]

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I think the GTO pulled in disappointing sales numbers not because of the car itself, but because of poor marketing by GM. If you think about having a car that is a performance terror yet can also get 27 mpg on the highway and has all the deluxe comfort appointments you could ask for, you realize the genius of this particular car.

That, unfortunately, does not seem to be a vision that GM was successful in getting across to the car-buying American public. Many of us basically expected something a lot more Retro rather than this GTO. And the simple fact is that this new GTO is altogether a different breed than the ones of yore. I know that for several years I did not buy a GTO because it was "not retro enough". I was also, quite honestly, put off by dealer arrogance when I did go to look at them. Took me a while to see this car brings something altogether different to the table, and once you judge the 2004 - 2006 GTO's on their own merits, THEN you see them for what they are.

I feel that GM should have positioned the GTO as a limited production dual purpose car that is altogether different - superior to - the cookie cutter Mustangs and Camaros. And therefore worth the premium price to be paid above and beyond your basic $25K sticker priced Mustang GT.

I reserve the "right to be wrong" here. But I feel if the Camaro succeeds it will be because there is a $25K medium performance version for the Everyman..... in addition to some high-end supercar performance version at premium price like a GTO is.

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another rant.

Two issues from the inception created an uphill enviornment for the GTO.

1st and most obvious was the profound lack/abscence of meaningfull marketing and advertising.

2nd was an absolutely ****eyed delivery schedule that was exacerbated by riduculous transport delays from the point of manufacture to the end user. Order a car and wait 6-7 mos. for it-insane! American consumers are not on an Australian model year timeframe and are unreceptive to excuses about delays. 05 GTOs were not seen in this area until Feb. of 05-inexcuseable and sales crushing. How do you convince a potential buyer in Nov. of 05 that the 05s were the current model year when virtually everything else current is an 06. That marketing strategy was D.O.A.

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What a bunch of stupid consumers us GTO owners are. Pontiac sold us a rebadged old Holden Monaro with irs, big brakes, world class grand touring comfort, perfected aluminum smallblock v8, and our choice of a 6 spd manual or performance tuned automatic. We could have had a mass-produced retro styled 2+2 with a solid rear axle , 4.6 litre ohc engine, and 5 spd transmisssion instead. Damn you Bob Lutz!!

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I dont consider it a failure, and i doubt GM does either. Sure there are still some '06s on the lots still, but GM had to have seen this comming. There has not been a car like this in the US in a long time. think about it, as far as option lists go, we have about the smallest one. Exterior color, Interior color (depending on your exterior), wheels size, and Transmission. One trim level, one interior cloth (leather), one sound system. SAP is a dealer installed option. No 1LT, 2LT, LTZ, SS. Just GTO.

The 90% of people that wont look at it for bland styling, are the Same 90% that would never give a 400HP, 6.0L V8, RWD coupe a second glance to begin with. 30k+ price or not. But even my Honda loving family gets a hell of SEG when i give them their first ride. Its not production capacity, or styling, but getting the butts in a seat. All of a sudden, bland styling becomes unimportant.

As far as aftermarket, i think we have a good aftermarket for a car with such low production numbers. Because statistically, a very small % of owners of a given car do any mods. Sure it would be nice to have a few more gear ratio choices than we do, and prices for us are a little steeper on the GTO specific parts like CAI's, Headers and exhaust than the f-body and mustang counterparts, and even more so with the dirt cheap ricer parts. But Being able to use a wide variety of existing ls1 and ls2 parts from fbods and vettes helps us out a lot. Im glad that a lot of the aftermarket parts like ricer body kits and all carbon sticker interiors arent ready available for our cars. Shipping from AUS for some of the monaro parts and options sucks, but we have those parts available too. So our aftermarket doesnt suck. The aftermarket for my 1997 GMC Safari sucks. I dont ***** about it.

And if the car is such a failure, than why am i constantly being bothered by people gawking at me everytime i go to the store, gas station, car wash, school, or anytime the car isnt in the garage? Ive never gotten so many comments on a vehicle before. But i also realize that just cause they like the loks of it, doesnt mean they would even consider buying one. GM knew this whn they brought it over, its a niche car, with a small market. Now if they had sold none of them, or given away large numbers of them at a loss, then it would be a failure.

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I have more. But this will suffice. Yea I love my Kangaroo and will defend it.

[Lash]

^ Theres no way in hell that I'm gonna read all that shit.

Where is the cliff notes?

[Korndogg]

people dissagreeing with the statement that the "car is a faliure"

theres the cliff's lol.