Speaking of toyota... What do you think of the new tundra?

[BAD LS1]

I think these trucks will create one hell of a shit storm for GM and ford trucks... I would hate to see the 3/4 and 1 ton model these guys would make:stare

IMHO they arent bad looking and the best part is that they ****ing rip! 14.8's @ 93 with a 381hp 5.7L and still knock down 20 mpg w/o the help of active fuel managment....

I really really like the new silverado/Sierra GMT900 platform... but this thing is the shit! It does everything equal or better than the domestic half tons and is priced better in most cases.


Discuss!

http://www.jalopnik.com/cars/images/toyota_tundra_new.jpg

[jbiscuit]

my dad bought the new Tacoma Sport and that thing is a sweet truck! The Tundras are awesome. I've noticed their "sh1t slinging" commercials also directed and Dodge, GM and Ford comparing ring gears and brakes etc.....I'd rock one!

[hrsp]

i think there SWEEEET...def would buy one

[2SLOW]

it's better than FORD!

[juicedimpss]

definately interesting.
we will see how it hold up.

[Flight_740]

You don't even have to ask me what I think. They are hot.

I like these too.


Engine
Endurance 5.6-liter DOHC 32-valve V8 engine
317 hp @ 5,200 rpm
385 lb-ft of torque @ 3,400 rpm

[Flight_740]

definately interesting.
we will see how it hold up.


DUDE......it's a Toyota. You know exactly how it will hold up.:thumbsup

[juicedimpss]

the titan has front brake issues,last i heard.

[juicedimpss]

DUDE......it's a Toyota. You know exactly how it will hold up.:thumbsup

i guess im wondering if it will do what a TRUCK should do,not a stupid suv with big brakes....
lets face it,there are not a whole lot of options for those of us who use a truck for what they were originally intended....hauling/towing.

[wikked]

the titan has front brake issues,last i heard.

<Bill Ford> Hey the Titan has front brake issues, pass it on! *giggles and runs*


^^^ :)

[Flight_740]

i guess im wondering if it will do what a TRUCK should do,not a stupid suv with big brakes....
lets face it,there are not a whole lot of options for those of us who use a truck for what they were originally intended....hauling/towing.


I think it will be fine. With that kind of power, they are deffinatly intended to be a work horse.

[juicedimpss]

<Bill Ford> Hey the Titan has front brake issues, pass it on! *giggles and runs*


^^^ :)

actually it was from a nissan master tech,who saw first hand....

[Flight_740]

actually it was from a nissan master tech,who saw first hand....

Whats the issue? Does the company have a recall about them yet?

[Nix]

Buy American...:headbang

[Flight_740]

Buy American...:headbang



When they build a good car (RWD performance cars asside) I would buy american again.

[juicedimpss]

Whats the issue? Does the company have a recall about them yet?

dunno if they issued a recall,but the rotors were warping like a sob when the trucks were towing....
of coarse that was when the truck first came out(few years ago) maybe they have a better rotor on it by now?
my point was basically this...the titan came out and was rated to be a heavy hauler..and still had issues.

[juicedimpss]

Buy American...:headbang

kinda tough to do,dont ya think?
there are only so many old vehicles left,and barrett jackson keeps making them out of my pricerange.
most of what we call "american" cars anymore are more "mexican" than american
:rolf

[theavenger333]

biggest knock on the Tundra was POWER when it came out. it had that dumb I-Force, which was their V6 with 2 cylinders added, not much development. new motor seems to be good.

[BAD LS1]

Well these trucks are made in San Antonio, Texas built by Americans and most parts are made in the USA.

So you are buying mostly American, except for the name.

Some of the new GM trucks are made in mexico lol as does dodge and ford have mexican MFG plants.... So its toyota really that bad? hahah

I look at it this way... If GM is gonna team up with anyone it will probably be toyota because of their prior joint ventures.

Im waiting to see if Honda comes out with a line of serious HD trucks with a V8... that can go head to head with the big boys, they are missing a huge market chunk right now by just making the ridgeline truck which a smaller jap avalanche basically.

[Josepy]

Im trying to get the woman to buy a Tundra. She wants the GMC Acadia or however it is spelled.

[Flight_740]

I don't understand whats so wrong with buying a jap truck anyways. Even if it was built and assembled there. You buy whats good. You buy what has strong resale. You buy whatever makes your dollar go further. Until american automakers can do that, they won't see a penny of my money.

[BAD LS1]

Im trying to get the woman to buy a Tundra. She wants the GMC Acadia or however it is spelled.

LOL then she would have her own burn out machine for george's!

With the electronic locker, im sure these things do burn outs like MF'ers!:headbang

[BAD LS1]

I don't understand whats so wrong with buying a jap truck anyways. Even if it was built and assembled there. You buy whats good. You buy what has strong resale. You buy whatever makes your dollar go further. Until american automakers can do that, they won't see a penny of my money.

Id buy one these trucks in a heartbeat if i was in the market for one!

at least for GM fullsizes and big SUV's anyway, those are the only thing that retain a decent trade in or resale value compared to cars etc...

That 05' civic i had was the only thing i got close to a wash on my loan at trade in a year later of any vehicle i had, only lost 800$ bucks! not thousands:headbang

[GRAMPS SS]

i've been watching the commercials ...and that is a sweet truck...but as ron has stated, how will it hold up....but dammm it's a nice looker......anyone know the price compared to chev,ford and dodge

[Flicktitty]

My dad is looking at trading in his 06 F150 for a new Tundra. i think that about sums it up.

[BAD LS1]

My dad is looking at trading in his 06 F150 for a new Tundra. i think that about sums it up.


Im sorry he bought that in the first place:goof unless he got areally good smoking deal of the century on it, then its acceptable:rolf

[BAD LS1]

i've been watching the commercials ...and that is a sweet truck...but as ron has stated, how will it hold up....but dammm it's a nice looker......anyone know the price compared to chev,ford and dodge

A fully loaded Crewmax 5.7 Limited runs about 38-39G

Right on par with everyone else.

[Flicktitty]

Im sorry he bought that in the first place:goof unless he got areally good smoking deal of the century on it, then its acceptable:rolf

he got a pretty good deal, i think he paid 26.5? with a little over 200 miles on it. Not to bad. Be crazy though he gets rid of that for a Toyota then everyone in my family will own an import! :wow

[jbiscuit]

uh oh....how many wanna guess when Tommy will have one of these guys to pull the Maro to the track? :)

[BAD LS1]

uh oh....how many wanna guess when Tommy will have one of these guys to pull the Maro to the track? :)

I do have an 05' GMC right now i inherited the payments on currently:rolf

If i could get one for only about a 100$ a month increase i just may have to.

I really wanna new silverado with the 6.0L in it though personally but 14.8's are pretty convicing!

[Flight_740]

uh oh....how many wanna guess when Tommy will have one of these guys to pull the Maro to the track? :)

Than he can tune those too!!:thumbsup

[animal]

Well these trucks are made in San Antonio, Texas

http://doncollier.com/Images/pace3.jpg
"Hey, this truck's made in New York City."


NEW YORK CITY?! :mad: :flipoff2: :fire

[Josepy]

LOL then she would have her own burn out machine for george's!

With the electronic locker, im sure these things do burn outs like MF'ers!:headbang



If I didn't drive to Fond Du Lac everyday for work I would have one already. Then she could get whatever she wants.

[UnderPSI]

it's better than FORD!

x2 +1

[Al]

The Toyota drives better than the others as well.

Anyone remember how the older toyota/nissan trucks held up? The only issues I ever heard about were related to rust.

[Poncho]

Tom you want too many things.

things I've recall tom talking about buying or bought in the last few years

cavaliar
cobalt
civic
camaro ss
s10
s10 xTreme
Colorado
5.3 sierra
6.0 silverado
trailblazer ss
5.7 gto
6.0 gto
Tundra
Monte Carlo

when does it stop, money bags?

sad thing is, i know that list is longer..

[2SLOW]

he got a pretty good deal, i think he paid 26.5? with a little over 200 miles on it. Not to bad. Be crazy though he gets rid of that for a Toyota then everyone in my family will own an import! :wow

so are u implying that imports are better?

[88Nightmare]

toyota recently had a recall on 775,000 trucks in their new full line fleet relating to ball joint failure.

[wikked]

http://doncollier.com/Images/pace3.jpg
"Hey, this truck's made in New York City."


NEW YORK CITY?! :mad: :flipoff2: :fire


:rolf :rolf :rolf
Flashback +1

[animal]

:rolf :rolf :rolf
Flashback +1

I was beginning to think I was the only one who understood that.

[Prince Valiant]

Let's not forget that the titan had problems with it's tiny dana 44 rear end and towing.

I personally think the new tundra kicks butt for what it is...but personally, I'd rather see the whole truck market change.

1) I don't think either the titan or tundra have much hurt the domestic truck market too much. Once you start seeing fleet orders on either titan or tundra's, then look out.

2) Toyota finally has gotten it on the third try...but ironically, I think the half-tons from ALL manufactuers probably need to morph back to what the original tundra was...a large midsize.

My problem with the market is that the trucks keep getting larger and heavier (I've got NO problems with more powerful) and thus while we make improvements in the vehicles ability to be more efficient, we keep shooting it in the foot with the increased size and wieght.

Put these engines, trans, and technology in older trucks sized like they were in the late 80's/early 90's we'd probably see city mileage on the order of 17-18mpg, and hwy mileage in the 23-24 range easy. AND the trucks would be much faster too boot (always a plus in my book)

Sure, you couldn't tow 9,500, 10,000, 10,500 as you are seeing some half-tons rated for...but I think a 7,500 lbs tow rating covers what 95% of what most need...and if you want more, get a 3/4 ton (something I'd argue should be the case anyways for towing over 8,000lbs regularly.

I remember even in the mid 90's many 3/4 tons didn't get tow ratings as generous as the ones we see today in the half tons.

[Flicktitty]

so are u implying that imports are better?

not implying but they gotta be doing something right if every couple in my family owns one.

[juicedimpss]

^^^^^^^^^
thats gotta be the most intellegent post i have ever read from the valiant.
i couldnt agree more.

[Flight_740]

not implying but they gotta be doing something right if every couple in my family owns one.

Over the past 4 years, I have converted my whole family into imports. Nissans, acuras, Lexus, Infiniti, and even a Volvo.:thumbsup

[Moparjim]

When they build a good car (RWD performance cars asside) I would buy american again.

News flash #1 - The last several years, many of Toyota's cars, including the vaunted Camry have dropped in the charts significantly in every single quality indicator that matters. Read the last two JD Power Initial overall quality reports, you will find the Camry to be SEVENTH, trailing no less than 3-4 "American" makes. GM in particular has quite a few models in the top 5 of most segments including 1st places. Ford and Chrysler have some top ranked models as well. While you are at it, take a look at recalls - Toyota has had an absolute shitload of recalls the last 3-5 years, some years we are talking many times the amount of recalls of "American" makes. How about their recall last week of 500,000 plus V6s for sludging?

Unfortunately for the "big three", noone can read or actually educate themselves anymore, everyone still remembers the hard screwing they got from American manufacturers from the 80's to the mid 90's. The media is a big culprit as well, most media sources are still blinded as well. Around the mid nineties, a lot of American cars started to get aweful good, and a lot of the Japanese models struggled to maintain. It is hard for people to forget that crappy _____ that they had with a _____ problem that they had. Its an easy mentality to understand - people could have had 10 good Chryslers, but they will always remember and talk about the one they had that had a crap transmission in 1993...

[SmokinRAM114]

in my diesel power mag, toyota might have a new CAT motor in there trucks in the coming years.

[Prince Valiant]

I've heard that many of the domestic 1/2 tons are looking at diesels too...smaller v6's, etc.

[Moparjim]

The Dodge 1500 will be available with the Cummins diesel sometime this year. That should be a great combo mileage and performance wise. I haven't looked it up yet but I bet the weight savings between the 1500 and the heavy duty 2500/3500s is significant.

[BOSS LX]

News flash #1 - The last several years, many of Toyota's cars, including the vaunted Camry have dropped in the charts significantly in every single quality indicator that matters. Read the last two JD Power Initial overall quality reports, you will find the Camry to be SEVENTH, trailing no less than 3-4 "American" makes. GM in particular has quite a few models in the top 5 of most segments including 1st places. Ford and Chrysler have some top ranked models as well. While you are at it, take a look at recalls - Toyota has had an absolute shitload of recalls the last 3-5 years, some years we are talking many times the amount of recalls of "American" makes. How about their recall last week of 500,000 plus V6s for sludging?

Unfortunately for the "big three", noone can read or actually educate themselves anymore, everyone still remembers the hard screwing they got from American manufacturers from the 80's to the mid 90's. The media is a big culprit as well, most media sources are still blinded as well. Around the mid nineties, a lot of American cars started to get aweful good, and a lot of the Japanese models struggled to maintain. It is hard for people to forget that crappy _____ that they had with a _____ problem that they had. Its an easy mentality to understand - people could have had 10 good Chryslers, but they will always remember and talk about the one they had that had a crap transmission in 1993...

That about sums it up.:thumbsup

[Nix]

News flash #1 - The last several years, many of Toyota's cars, including the vaunted Camry have dropped in the charts significantly in every single quality indicator that matters. Read the last two JD Power Initial overall quality reports, you will find the Camry to be SEVENTH, trailing no less than 3-4 "American" makes. GM in particular has quite a few models in the top 5 of most segments including 1st places. Ford and Chrysler have some top ranked models as well. While you are at it, take a look at recalls - Toyota has had an absolute shitload of recalls the last 3-5 years, some years we are talking many times the amount of recalls of "American" makes. How about their recall last week of 500,000 plus V6s for sludging?

Unfortunately for the "big three", noone can read or actually educate themselves anymore, everyone still remembers the hard screwing they got from American manufacturers from the 80's to the mid 90's. The media is a big culprit as well, most media sources are still blinded as well. Around the mid nineties, a lot of American cars started to get aweful good, and a lot of the Japanese models struggled to maintain. It is hard for people to forget that crappy _____ that they had with a _____ problem that they had. Its an easy mentality to understand - people could have had 10 good Chryslers, but they will always remember and talk about the one they had that had a crap transmission in 1993...

I couldn't have said it better myself man! Very nicely put:thumbsup

[88Nightmare]

last time it snowed and I was doin plowin, I heard on a late night radio show about toyotas recalls. With that 775,000 large truck recall relating to their ball joints, I can't remember if that was going to be affecting the new Tundras as well. idk, maybe im biased, maybe im not, I just don't think the japanese market will ever produce a truck that will haul and handle workloads like american trucks. Not that im sayin they are bad trucks, hands down I bet a jap truck would last twice as long as an american truck, I just like the interior of my chevy, and what it can handle for towing being only a 1500.

[Breecher_7]

Ahhh.....I was waiting for this issue to pop up! I am not convinced yet as many others seem to be. Personally I feel that the new trundra is really ugly and based by there recent massive recalls due to poor engineering only time will tell the fate of the tundra. Toyota builds a great product, no doubt, but thats based on what they have done for a long long time, small trucks, suv's and cars all with v6 and 4 cyl motors. Beefy V-8's and the drivetrain to back it up is new territory for Toyota and it will be very interesting to see the outcome. As far has half ton trucks go, I wouldnt purchase anything but a Chevy or a dodge right now, for reliablity and performance, they dominate. The 6.0 and Hemi engines are very impressive. To see Toyota venture into the HD line would be interesting as well but I think they would follow the route that chevy has making the vehicle a soccer moms car versus a true workhorse. Basically what im saying is that IFS does not have a place in a truck that has a capability to tow 24,000 pounds. Although it can be upgraded to take a beating it is far more likely to break and or fail in some way compared to a solid axle. I guess how I feel about it is, Toyota, give us what you got, if its a superior product only time will tell.

[88Nightmare]

what does IFS have to do with it? Chevy has been using IFS since 1988.....

[Breecher_7]

Im just stating the fact that if they went to a HD 2500 + that is most likely the route they would go. Its weak compared to solid axle and I feel has no place in a HD truck, not to mention it just rides to squishy.....

[88Nightmare]

chevy uses IFS in their HD 2500 and 3500. I have one in my 1500. and I love it. If you don't do extreme offroading, the IFS is the best thing ever. The ride down the freeway is awesome, it handles crappy sideroads nicely. Personally, if you had bought a truck to do towing and hauling with, but drive it most of the time empty, IFS is the way to go. With Chevy, they've used it for 20 years and its great. I have no complaints about it. The ride in my 1500 is very very nice. Even when towing its nice. I don't know what you mean about squishy. Its "soft", idk about squishy. If you are comparing it to a 1-ton suspended truck, then yeah, you might call it squishy...

[Breecher_7]

My dodge is a 1500, it has IFS as well and I hate it. It has two much body roll, even with the T-Bars cranked....it feels squishy, i just prefer the feel of a solid axle truck. And im aware that chevy uses IFS in there HD trucks,thats why I said "they will probably go the way that chevy has". Im just not a fan of it. Its a truck, its not meant to be comfortable and plush, its designed for work. Its rediculous that auto manufacturers are catering to the stupid soccer mom and office dad that want a 1 ton truck to do nothing but drive to work and drop the kids off at school but want plush leather, navigation and a soft BMW type ride. This nonsense is what makes trucks designed for WORK to expensive for people that really need them.

[88Nightmare]

hey, I use my truck once or twice a month to tow my stock car around, and sometimes inbetween that to tow whatever or haul somethin for someone, but otherwise, my truck is my daily driver. And I drive a lot, so it better be fuggin comfortable. I don't wanna feel like I'm driving a sherman tank. Yeah its a truck, its mean to be a truck, but since when do we have to follow these stupid guidelines? Look at all these crossover SUV's. Suddenly station wagons are AWD family haulers... What ever happened to the good ol Ford Turtle wagon or the Mercury Unstable wagons? Step outside the mother fuggin box man. Trucks can be comfortable too.

If you used your 1-ton truck for a living and hauled stuff EVERY day, wouldn't you like it to be comfortable riding? Even with the IFS, that barely hurts their towing ability, they tow just as much as ford or dodge with the solid fronts, and ride a hell of a lot better. Why wouldn't you want that?

[Breecher_7]

Durability, Dependability and Cost of repair. Solid axles are better when you break it down. I have defended IFS in the past, but I feel for HD trucks, Solid axle is the way to be. 1/2 ton trucks, Fine, IFS is great, most are daily drivers, hell mine is a 05 and I already have 32K on it, it gets driven alot. If they want to be plush and cushy then fine, be that way, Im not saying they shouldnt be. But the fact is that MOST people that own HD trucks NEED them for WORK, not just simply because they WANT to have a big truck for no reason. Cutting back on the nonsense that they pack HD line trucks with no adays would seriously cut back on the prices of the vehicles not only because of the cheaper cost of manufacturing the product but because mommy and daddy wouldnt be in the market for a truck like that. Its all based on supply and demand, they have soccer moms paying the high dollar for this vehicle so they figure they can keep charging more for them. Im not trying to start a fight but this is simple economics, be a little more open minded.

[88Nightmare]

I am open minded, but some people just don't like the way a solid front axel rides if they drive a LOT. My neighbor has a 99 Powerstroke, solid front axel, and he has about 200k miles on it. Before he bought his semi, he used to pull a 50ft 5th wheel trailer with it. He was driving about 40k miles a year. He was replacing his balljoints almost twice within a 12 month time period. And thats a solid front axel. Think thats cheap to keep doin ball joints like that over 4 years? It all depends on the situation. The IFS is dependable if maintained. It may be pricey to repair, but Chevy's IFS lasts.

edit. I believe Dodge has IFS now on their heavy duty trucks. I test drove a 2006 2500HD ram with a cummins, and if I am not mistaken, it had IFS.

[Flight_740]

everyone still remembers the hard screwing they got from American manufacturers from the 80's to the mid 90's...


Are you kidding me? Thats the last time I remember GM and most other american cars to be good. Since then they have become crap.

[Breecher_7]

If he was replacing ball joints that often there was somthing else wrong, that is not right. A dana 60 front end will go well over 100K before it thinks of needing ball joints. Im going to just stop this where it stands, you just dont grasp the point im trying to get across here and im getting tired of arguing with you. Its obvious that you along with every other soccer mom see HD trucks as luxury vehicles and not what they are intended for. Solid axle trucks do not ride rough and they are comfortable, MUCH more so then they were years back. The point im trying to get across is if HD trucks didnt appeal to people with no need for them, they would be cheaper and more affordable for the people that do need them. To purchase a 3500 or F350 just to drive back and forth to work everyday and pack it with every luxury option of a cadilac is absolutly rediculous. Im not making a personal attack on you, i want you to know that, i Just dont think you understand what im getting at. So anyways! How bout that tundra!

[Breecher_7]

Are you kidding me? Thats the last time I remember GM and most other american cars to be good. Since then they have become crap.

What came out the 80's that was good other then mabey the Grand National or the Fox body mustangs? All the trucks in the 80's were garbage.....

[Breecher_7]

And no, dodge and ford both have solid front axles in the 3/4ton up trucks

[Flight_740]

The Montes, regals, cutlass's were good cars. Luminas were great cars. The taurus with the 3.0 were decent. Corsicas, cavaliers, clebritys, pontiac 6000's, caprices. Crown Vics were good too. You still see all these cars on the road. Beat up but still running.



The only junk IMO was mopar back then.

Now correct me if Im wrong.

[Breecher_7]

I guess you see "good" vehicles in a different way then I do. Everyone is entitled to there oppinion i guess.

[Flight_740]

I guess you see "good" vehicles in a different way then I do. Everyone is entitled to there oppinion i guess.



They were good cars. The old Multi port 2.8's and 3.1's were good motors. Slow as piss but they were tuff. The old TPI 3800 was a good motor too.

[88Nightmare]

yeah im gonna have to go ahead and now classify you as a prick for putting me on the same level as a soccer mom. I have owned a wide variety of trucks in the past. I have owned everything from a crew cab one ton dually big block chevy to a reg cab shortbox 2wd Isuzu. I have done more driving on my vehicles then anyone should ever have to do. I know tried and true the IFS rides better. It costs more? So fuggin what. Everything costs more now a days. That's life. How much did a pickup in the 80's cost compared to the same thing today? I know that a 1500 Chevy back in 85 didn't cost 35,000 bucks. I understand what you are saying about lux'n up the HD's, but its what people want now. They don't want some stripped out workhorse anymore. If you spend 3/4 of your day in your truck, do you want to be driving a brick shit house? Hell no. Today, these people want their CD changers, their XM radio, their power heated seats.... their whatever you can fill in the _________. a 2007 classic silverado 3500 totally stripped out starts at 24,485, and a 4x4 knocks it up to 27,715. A Ford superduty starts at 25,585. Solid front axel in that mofo, and it costs more.... hmmmm. HD Rams start at 26,805. And yeah, all this information is pulled specifically off of each manufacturers website. And oh no, the IFS weakling of the bunch seems to be the cheapest.
But like I said, no one seems to want a stripped out vehicle anymore. They want it fully loaded. Not only does it add to the resale, but it just makes driving more of a pleasure. Sure, I could have bought a totally stripped out 1500 4x4 work truck with the vinyl floors and crank windows and a manual transmission, but who the **** would want to buy it when im done with it? Ya try to sell a truck like that, and people KNOW what it was used for.

Oh yeah and as far as the powerstroke eating balljoints, its a common ford problem. my neighbor has already discussed his problem on other superduty forums and many people share the same problems...

[Breecher_7]

They were good cars. The old Multi port 2.8's and 3.1's were good motors. Slow as piss but they were tuff. The old TPI 3800 was a good motor too.

I guess i see your point now, my appologies

[Flight_740]

Speaking of, can i change my screen name? I hate GTP's!!:rolf :rolf

[Breecher_7]

Im a prick because i have a understanding of simple economics? And as far as your pricing is concerned, get off the computer, go to the dealership and you will find that out of the big 3, a hd line chevy with the same equipment as the other two will be more expensive, hands down. Ive see some 40K+ stickers on there 1/2 ton trucks, thats REDICULOUS. If you want to continue this nonsense take it over to the truck forum, weve crapped this one up enough.

[88Nightmare]

on a half ton truck? are you on crack? my buddy just bought an 07 duramax extended cab short bed 4x4 with everything but leather and out the door signed $38g's. Sir, you should never drink the bong water.

[88Nightmare]

and no, you are prick for comparing me to a soccer mom. Pretty rude.

[Breecher_7]

I didnt mean to be rude, it was just a comparison in your way of thinking. i do appologize if i really pissed you off.

[Breecher_7]

I have seen MULTIPLE 1/2 ton chevys with over 40K stickers, last fall when i was out looking at trucks

[88Nightmare]

my way of thinking? apparently I think like a soccer mom.

lets compare our way of thinking...

having a salesman in the family and many friends who are salesman over at braeger chevy, you can imagine I spend a lot of my time at dealerships... which I do. How often do you think someone walks into a dealership and says "Give me a silverado, with 0 options." Next to none. Why? Because with all the toys available in trucks today, who wants a stripped out truck? That guy that buys a truck with 0 options to drive every day is gonna get laughed at when he takes he new truck over to his buddies house to show it off. He's gonna be hearin things like "dude wheres your keyless entry" or "man how did you not go and get the changer" or somethin like "man I cant believe this thing doesnt have fog lights" Its reality man. A lot of companies that purchase pickups for their work fleet are barely stripped out. They might have the vinyl floor which is easy to clean, but chances are it has a/c, power windows, locks mirrors, and a cd player. Stripped out trucks suck, this aint the early 90's anymore. Trucks now cost so much because of all the bells and whistles on em. You want a cd player? thats cool, now they are gonna charge you more because of the engineering that went into that cd player to be able to hook up onstar, a changer, navigation, and xm radio to it. Uh oh, here goes the price again when you get voice recognition controls. Wait, how do we get those steering wheel controls to work on the radio? Up goes your price again. How bout them trucks that have the trip computers and tell you your fuel mileage, mileage till empty, total fuel used, and your engine oil life? you think thats free to engineer? nope.

my point? don't blame your truck's independant front suspension for the inflated cost, blame all the crap inside your truck.

[88Nightmare]

I have seen MULTIPLE 1/2 ton chevys with over 40K stickers, last fall when i was out looking at trucks

then you are going to the wrong dealership man.

[Breecher_7]

Yeah, im not crazy, just built one on chevy's website over 40K..... A base LTZ silverado 4x4 is 38K before options........cant be done huh?

[88Nightmare]

now you are pissin me off. I never said it couldnt be done, but if you ****** read what the **** you are doin, you will see that an LTZ is complete with navigation, heated leather, and anything else under the sun less a microwave. My truck, an LT2, which is power seats, windows, locks, auto dimming power folding mirrors with the turn signals in em, in dash 6 disc, xm, onstar, digital climate control, driver information center, 4wheel drive, and basically anything else you can think of aside from leather stickers at $35g's. Why would you ever need anything more than that in a pickup? BTW my truck cost me 24g's :D. How much did your dodge cost ya? And like I said, my friends duramax loaded just like mine cost $38gs. Thats including tax, title, and an extended warranty.

[Breecher_7]

I never blamed the trucks IFS for the inflated cost, mabey you should re-read things. I blamed the nonsense installed in the trucks for the inflated price and the IFS giving that cushy car like ride for making that truck appealing enough to make the bmw drivers want to own a big diesel truck for no reason. You are blowing this out of perportion.

[88Nightmare]

yes you ****** did. you said with the engineering of the IFS, it raises the cost of the truck because soccer moms want a nice riding truck.

now, you are comparing a top of the line LTZ truck and say hey look at this, its over 40k. No shit eh?

Last time I was at a ford dealership, to get a truck equipped like my 1500 in a powerstroke, it would have cost me about $44,000. A cummins? Bout the same. And thats cheap? Yet duramax's are walkin out the door at 38k with class leading power. what now *****? you wanna start gettin off the subject, I can get off the subject just as much as you. The bottom line like this originally started, IFS IS NOT what raises the cost of a truck.

[Breecher_7]

on a half ton truck? are you on crack? my buddy just bought an 07 duramax extended cab short bed 4x4 with everything but leather and out the door signed $38g's. Sir, you should never drink the bong water.

Seems to me like you were saying it couldnt be true..... And im aware of what the LTZ package includes, i was just making my point. oh and you would be suprised how much time I spend at dealerships, probably much more then you, but i fail to see how that has anything to do with this.

[RanJer]

Like sands through the hour glass.. these are the days of our lives.. Weekdays on BCM

[Breecher_7]

This is hopeless, Im done arguing with you.

[88Nightmare]

Seems to me like you were saying it couldnt be true..... And im aware of what the LTZ package includes, i was just making my point. oh and you would be suprised how much time I spend at dealerships, probably much more then you, but i fail to see how that has anything to do with this.

yeah the sticker is over 40k, who the **** pays sticker for a car or truck?

[Breecher_7]

Who is talking about paying sticker? Im just saying that is what they are TRYING to sell it for. This is getting stupid. Seriously, take it to the truck forum if you want to continue this.

[88Nightmare]

im kinda out of things to say..

cept for....

a fully loaded KING RANCH powerstroke ford stickers for about $55k. Is that not rediculous? This is the price trend. Things just keep goin up and up.


But anyway, its been fun. Its been real... but it hasn't been real fun. We should do this again sometime. What do ya say to maybe Monday morning? Maybe we can debate on why dodge's transmissions fail. Jer can join in and discuss their front ends :D

[Breecher_7]

Havent seen any issues with the trannys in the 3rd gens....and now that orion is no longer making them for 08, it will be interesting. Im all up for it though, a good debate that goes noewhere do to individual prejudice is always fun.

[88Nightmare]

I don't know much about the dodge transmissions, so I wouldn't have much to say other then assenine opinions and personal attacks on people's character, appearance, and what they drive. All I know is the last generation, like the mid 90's had some serious trans problems.

[Breecher_7]

Serious problems is a understatement, why there was never a class action suit filed is beyond me. The 5 speed auto behind my hemi is a brute though, it gets a serious beating and runs like hell.

[88Nightmare]

theres a lot of things with auto manufacturers that should have been a class action suit. The cam gears on the V8 taurus sho's is a big one. I don't think anything ever materialized from that one. I know there's plenty others, I just cant happen to think of em.

[DynoTom]

News flash #1 - The last several years, many of Toyota's cars, including the vaunted Camry have dropped in the charts significantly in every single quality indicator that matters. Read the last two JD Power Initial overall quality reports, you will find the Camry to be SEVENTH, trailing no less than 3-4 "American" makes. GM in particular has quite a few models in the top 5 of most segments including 1st places. Ford and Chrysler have some top ranked models as well. While you are at it, take a look at recalls - Toyota has had an absolute shitload of recalls the last 3-5 years, some years we are talking many times the amount of recalls of "American" makes. How about their recall last week of 500,000 plus V6s for sludging?

Unfortunately for the "big three", noone can read or actually educate themselves anymore, everyone still remembers the hard screwing they got from American manufacturers from the 80's to the mid 90's. The media is a big culprit as well, most media sources are still blinded as well. Around the mid nineties, a lot of American cars started to get aweful good, and a lot of the Japanese models struggled to maintain. It is hard for people to forget that crappy _____ that they had with a _____ problem that they had. Its an easy mentality to understand - people could have had 10 good Chryslers, but they will always remember and talk about the one they had that had a crap transmission in 1993...



I could not agree more ! :thumbsup

[Cryptic]

I have seen MULTIPLE 1/2 ton chevys with over 40K stickers, last fall when i was out looking at trucks

I just got done shopping and I have to agree with Breecher_7 here. You get into anything diesel or HD 3/4 ton and your easily in the 40's.

I finally said the hell with it and bought a 98' 3/4 ton gasser and save myself 30 grand for now. Even on used diesels over at Lenz Truck... they wouldn't budge on prices even with cash in hand. Used they started at 25k for anything descent shape and nicely equipped.

[77thor]

Tundra is a very nice truck.
I still have my old 97 Tacoma.

[Prince Valiant]

This thread lost me when people started saying american cars of the late 80's early 90's were great cars.

imo, those were the cars that killed the domestic cars of today and are precisely why many hold bias's against domestic cars.

[Flight_740]

Nope, they are still ruining themselves.


Of course this is a matter of opinion.

[Moparjim]

Nope, they are still ruining themselves.


Of course this is a matter of opinion.

That is EXACTLY the problem. That is your opinion based on rumor, conjecture, or experience with the limited sample size of what cars your or a small circle of friends and family may have owned.

I on the other had have worked in the auto industry for 11 plus years as an engineer, another 5-10 years before that as a mechanic. I receive and read numerous trade magazines such as Ward's, internal technical publications, every one of the major quality indicator publications such as R.L. Polk and J.D Power. I also have access to hard data regarding recalls, warranty cost, manufacturing processes and specifications. In addition I have physically been to and benchmarked many of our plants, as well as Toyota, Ford, GM competitive plants. I have been to many of our manufacturing equipment vendors that make equipment for the big 3 and the foreign makes as well. I have also visited numerous parts plants.

An example - how many people know that in 2005 Toyota sold 2.6 million vehicles in the U.S. and had 23 recalls affecting 2,225,776 vehicles. That is 0.856 recalls per vehicle sold and that is not including all 75,000 of their hybrids were recalled as well. The same year, DaimlerChrysler sold 2,304,833 vehicles and had only 9 recalls affecting 765,777 vehicles or only 0.332 recalls per vehicle sold, practically 1/3 of the amount Toyota had.

As far as 80's and 90's cars you couldn't be more off base. Damn near everything Toyota and Honda made lasted hundreds of thousands of miles, got signicantly better milage, had far superior NVH. A lot of those cars you could put 200,000 miles on them without a powertrain or major repair, and the cars still drove nice and tight like as if they had under 50,000 miles on them. Most American cars were not so great. Chryslers were absolute junk I bet few people can even NAME what we sold in 1991. K cars, Acclaims, Dynastys, etc. GM and Ford weren't any better. Chevettes, Escorts, early Taurus, Beretta/Corsica, Lumina, were all garbage. The 2800 and 3.1 were lousy NVH, lousy milage, lots of issues. The even worse part was the cars themselves not so much the powertrain - peeling clearcoat, NVH, rust, etc. Most American cars of that era rapidly turned into rattletraps with numerous issues be they electrical, accessories, shakes rattles and rolls. Trucks were the worst of all - up until the mid 90's the big three were still selling essentially the same trucks they were selling in 1970. 1970-1992 Dodge trucks are essentially the same damn truck! We were still putting what was basically the same 318/360 from 1966 in trucks till 1992 and even when we redesigned them as the newer "Magnum" engines they were still the same basic engine and we milked those until the new Hemis came out. Ford and GM weren't too much different.

[Flight_740]

That is EXACTLY the problem. That is your opinion based on rumor, conjecture, or experience with the limited sample size of what cars your or a small circle of friends and family may have owned..


Dude, actually I have ran the family car dealership for the past 6 years and been arouund the business for over 15 years. Trust me, I see and drive enough cars to make a valid opinion.


Also, recalls mean nothing as far as I'm concerned. What were the actuall recalls? My guess is mainly US safety guidelines not being up to par.

Lets see how many miles we can actually pull out of these things.

[hrsp]

^ agreed

[Moparjim]

That being said, I am obviously a Mopar and American car guy, but I do try to be objective. I have no problem discussing or pointing out Chrysler's faults. I also have nothing against ANY make of car, shit I am very tolerant of all the damn Mustang guys around here! Every manufacturer has made some nice stuff and some not so nice stuff. The only thing I really do take issue with is narrow minded, ill informed people that put forth ideas that "ALL (INSERT BRAND NAME HERE) ARE GREAT THEY ARE GOLD PLATED AND CAN DO NO WRONG".

If you do the research you will find that there is a good deal of parity lately - there are some really good and even tops in their class quality cars coming out of the big three, and most Toyotas are still pretty damn good as well. Chrysler minivans, LX cars, Jeeps, Dakotas, and trucks all get very good marks in the surveys, warranty data, etc. The jury is still out on the newer stuff made at Belvedere and Sterling Heights (new small and midsize cars). Previous small and midsize cars (Neon, Sebring, Stratus) were so-so in both quality and competitive performance.

[Poncho]

So I wouldn't have much to say other then assenine opinions and personal attacks on people's character, appearance, and what they drive.

whoa dude. you can't do that, taking from Valiants play book. :rolf

in my small personal experience, that american cars that've been getting made since the early 90's got significantly better by the late 90's, but now are way way better today.

The fit and finish on our mustang and GTO are great, paint quality (lack of orange peel) etc. is better. They run smoother, aren't rattling yet, and easily make me forget the past cars I've had.

Quality wise, they're both great, but personally I think my kangaroo blows our mustang out of the water. Rightfully so, it's a shit ton more expensive in other markets.

thats my .02 on recent car quality.

[Prince Valiant]

shit I am very tolerant of all the damn Mustang guys around here! ...And that's why you are a better person than me.

[Prince Valiant]

whoa dude. you can't do that, taking from Valiants play book. :rolfIt wouldn't be...I know alot about the mopar tranny's.

[fireguyrick]

Damn I am such a soccer mom. I mean what is wrong with me that I want a truck/SUV that can tow 6000lbs+, and still have all the options? I mean, I should really want to be a TRUE man, and have no heater, A/C. radio, power anything when I tow things for long distances.

Rick

Oh yeah, it is RIDICULUS not rediculus. Also, for claiming to have a basic understanding of Economics Breecher, it really does not show. Why are dealerships trying to sell trucks at $40K+? Because they can, and people will buy them. Yes, that means that some of the lower paid working class that needs them will not have the ability to afford them. That being said though, if one is really that underpaid or poor there is NO REASON they should be looking at a NEW truck.

[Moparjim]

Dude, actually I have ran the family car dealership for the past 6 years and been arouund the business for over 15 years. Trust me, I see and drive enough cars to make a valid opinion.


Also, recalls mean nothing as far as I'm concerned. What were the actuall recalls? My guess is mainly US safety guidelines not being up to par.

Lets see how many miles we can actually pull out of these things.

Now that's plain ignorant - recalls mean nothing, they are usually just SAFETY things lol?

Toyotas recalls in 2005 off the top of my head included like 800,000 trucks and SUVs for ball joints seperating, resulting in loss of steering and crashes - not a big deal I guess uness its the truck your wife and kids are in...

Also were some "minor" issues like seat belts not locking, exhaust rubbing through brake lines resulting in leaks and loss of brakes. I know every single Prius was recalled for a little thing like the steering shaft breaking, again resulting in a total loss of steering!

Which dealership do you "run" exactly, and what type of cars do you sell? I know plenty of people that sell things and have absolutely no clue as far as the actual specs of what they are selling. I know exactly how Toyota and the big three manufacture their cars, particularlyh powertrains. I know what Toyota makes their rods out of, how and where they cast their blocks, what machines and tools they use to machine their parts, how they tighten their bolts, you name it. Like a lot of industrys, none of the us do anything really all that different, and we all copy I mena "benchmark" each other. I can tell you factually that our plants and a lot of the big three plants use the same, similar, or even BETTER processes than Toyota does. We also all use a lot of the same damn parts - Denso, Bosch, etc. parts are found on damn near ALL manufacturers cars be they foreign or domestic.

[Flight_740]

It's just a little family place. I'll PM you a link to our site. I'm pretty proud of the place actually.


All I know is being in this business, I see plenty of cars with some miles. Thats the true test.

[Moparjim]

Lets see how many miles we can actually pull out of these things.

R.L Polk does some interesting studies and reports on "long term reliability". They study a lot of different things including taking surveys, one thing that is particularly relevent is they do a study that tracks vehicle registrations over many years. They track how many cars and trucks of a particular model are actually still registered and operating after 5, 10 or more years. last one I got and read, their rankings were loaded with domestic cars, including many GMs. Dodge trucks and minivans were the #1 rated large truck and minivan believe it or not.

J.D. Power also does long term reliability studies of a similar nature, though their reports are all survey based. All three manufacturers track warranty cost, which is also a VERY good indicator of initial to mid term reliability, with many warrantys going 70,000 or even 100,000 miles. This information is available to me, and is typically available "leaked" somewhere on the web when manufacturers have problems. Search for some of that data and you will find the facts back up what I have posted.

P.S. - I am baffled what makes people think hillbillies in Kentucky or Texas are really building that much better of a car than fellow Midwesterners from Detroit, Wisconsin, Illinois, Ohio, etc.

[Moparjim]

It's just a little family place. I'll PM you a link to our site. I'm pretty proud of the place actually.


All I know is being in this business, I see plenty of cars with some miles. Thats the true test.

Damn you reply fast lol. PM away I would love to check it out.

[Cjburn]

I've been screaming the media bias for a couple years now, Toyota's quality has been dropping for a couple years (as I assume anything would as the ramped up production rates would dictate), and I'm a Toyota guy. I've owned 2 Toyotas, 2 Hondas, 4 Nissans, and I've NEVER owned a domestic manufacters' car. All cars break, and drive what you like, because if they didn't, there would no need for Service departments at Toyota dealerships, just a big Jiffy Lube looking thing in the back...

[88Nightmare]

Damn I am such a soccer mom. I mean what is wrong with me that I want a truck/SUV that can tow 6000lbs+, and still have all the options? I mean, I should really want to be a TRUE man, and have no heater, A/C. radio, power anything when I tow things for long distances.

Rick

Oh yeah, it is RIDICULUS not rediculus. Also, for claiming to have a basic understanding of Economics Breecher, it really does not show. Why are dealerships trying to sell trucks at $40K+? Because they can, and people will buy them. Yes, that means that some of the lower paid working class that needs them will not have the ability to afford them. That being said though, if one is really that underpaid or poor there is NO REASON they should be looking at a NEW truck.

man I was waiting for a reply like this. Best said thing all day as far as Ive seen. well done. :headbang

[Lash]

Wow! WTF happened here...LMAO!

[Reverend Cooper]

the new tundra is the bomb digity

[hrsp]

ibtl? any ways i cant read well enough to read all the posts in a timely manner so i'll just say...in my limited time on this earht and the limited amount of vehicles i've come across toyota has been the benchmark for durability..thats just me though so dont go flaming out your ass cause i said toyota;s are durable...

[WilliamZ]

toyota recently had a recall on 775,000 trucks in their new full line fleet relating to ball joint failure.
At least they recalled them instead of never fixing problems like GM...