Ward’s 10 Best Engines 2007

[DynoTom]

During an approximately 2-month period in fall 2006, a panel of six Ward’s editors evaluated each of 33 engine nominees using a variety of objective and subjective measures.


There is no instrumented testing. Editors evaluate each engine during their daily driving routines.

Heavily influencing judges’ voting are an engine’s fuel economy; noise, vibration and harshness (NVH) attributes; technical innovation; and power and performance – particularly specific output, or the power generated in relation to the engine’s size.

The engines must be offered in US production vehicles in 2007 model years.

Here is a list of the winning engines.

Audi AG FSI 2L Turbocharged DOHC I-4

BMW AG 3L DOHC I-6

BMW AG 3L Turbocharged DOHC I-6

DaimlerChrysler AG 3L DOHC V-6 Turbodiesel

DaimlerChrysler AG Hemi Magnum 5.7L OHV V-8

Ford Motor Co. Duratec 35 3.5L DOHC V-6

Ford Motor Co. 4.6L SOHC V-8

Mazda Motor Corp. DISI 2.3L Turbocharged DOHC I-4

Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. 3.5L DOHC V-6

Toyota Motor Corp. 3.5L DOHC V-6

[Flicktitty]

man, not 1 GM Product on the list.
Nice to see the Nissan VQ35DE got on the list :)

[RanJer]

man, not 1 GM Product on the list.
Nice to see the Nissan VQ35DE got on the list :)


GM gets pwned

hasn't the VQ motor been on that list since it came out? my buddy has a 350z and was talkin about that...

[Flicktitty]

GM gets pwned

hasn't the VQ motor been on that list since it came out? my buddy has a 350z and was talkin about that...

Don't honestly know. i don't look into these "lists" too often. cause most of them seem to be one sidded thoughts on engines/cars or what ever there talking about

[84hurst]

Don't honestly know. i don't look into these "lists" too often. cause most of them seem to be one sidded thoughts on engines/cars or what ever there talking about

The VE has been on there for I think 13 years straight! BTW, how the f*ck does the ford 4.6 make the list???

[2SLOW]

blah blah blah gm wasn't on there because they coulden't handle one!

[Prince Valiant]

To be perfectly honest, I'd replace the 4.6 SOHC engine with any number of engines.

The V8's from both Lexus and Nissan come to mind if I wanted to look to Japan. GM's LS series engines with multi-displacement would be a good substitute from an american player. Even within fords own ranks is a perfectly good diesel (okay...far from perfect, but better than the 4.6).

did they provide any captions explaining the rationale? I'm assuming that the platform they tested was the mustangs 4.6.

[Flicktitty]

The VE has been on there for I think 13 years straight! BTW, how the f*ck does the ford 4.6 make the list???

The VQ ;)
it has been on the list sine 97.

The VE30 was only used in 92-94. and was used on the maxima. it's pretty much a VG30 with Differant heads.

[Moparjim]

I work in the auto industry and subscribe to Ward's and yeah the tend to be like a lot of the media and are waaay slanted towards Japanese or German makes. The Hemi has been on the list every year since it came out I believe, even more of an achievement considering the bias involved. The list is way biased towards lower volume "neat" engines such as turbo or supercharged, etc. - what I consider engines that shouldn't even really be considered high volume engines.

[Bobby "Big Daddy" Flay]

WTF, no Honda engines. They rate better than some of those others any day.

[BAD LS1]

Yeah im supprised the venerable GM 3800-3900 engine didnt make it, its been on there for ever. Or some Honda engines too.

That 4.6L SOHC motor is a boat fooking anchor in my truly honest opinion. The 4 cammer is better and the 5.4L 4 cammer is the ultimate of ford engines, besides the old push 302... I guess the advent of the 3V 4.6 was enough to knock their socks off... Thats my take on ford engines.

Go figure the hemi is on there... I guess MPG wasnt a factor for wards lol But im suprised to see it on there being it still very much has push rods and is pretty simple in design.

[Flicktitty]

i'm kindda suprised of the LS7 not being on there.

[2SLOW]

yes or the lsx??

[88Nightmare]

yeah the GM LS engines with multi displacement definitely should have been on that list

[Korndogg]

im just gonna make my own list and post it as an article on some site. People will believe me too just because its in an article format.

[Poncho]

no LS series motor?? blah.

[DynoTom]

im just gonna make my own list and post it as an article on some site. People will believe me too just because its in an article format.


http://wardsauto.com/reports/2007/tenbest/intro/best_engines_2007/

[Prince Valiant]

Go figure the hemi is on there... I guess MPG wasnt a factor for wards lol But im suprised to see it on there being it still very much has push rods and is pretty simple in design.Just a comparison:

Chevy Camaro: 18mpg city, 25mpg hwy.
Chrysler 300C: 17mpg city, 25mpg hwy.

Both automatics for a closer apple to apple comparison.

And keep in mind that the 300 is a fair amount heavier and larger/less aerodynamic than the camaro, both of which hurt fuel mileage (though it does have multi-displacement which would account for 5-20% percent improvement depending on who you believe)

As far as the hemi being on there, it should be imo...not at the expense of an the LS engines per se. Both are pretty simple designs, for sure...but when does superior = complex? It doesn't have to be, to be superior, wouldn't you agree?

[88Nightmare]

Just a comparison:

Chevy Camaro: 18mpg city, 25mpg hwy.
Chrysler 300C: 17mpg city, 25mpg hwy.

Both automatics for a closer apple to apple comparison.

And keep in mind that the 300 is a fair amount heavier and larger/less aerodynamic than the camaro, both of which hurt fuel mileage (though it does have multi-displacement which would account for 5-20% percent improvement depending on who you believe)

As far as the hemi being on there, it should be imo...not at the expense of an the LS engines per se. Both are pretty simple designs, for sure...but when does superior = complex? It doesn't have to be, to be superior, wouldn't you agree?


for sure. some of the greatest inventions and innovations in life are quite simple designs.

[BAD LS1]

Just a comparison:

Chevy Camaro: 18mpg city, 25mpg hwy.
Chrysler 300C: 17mpg city, 25mpg hwy.

Both automatics for a closer apple to apple comparison.

And keep in mind that the 300 is a fair amount heavier and larger/less aerodynamic than the camaro, both of which hurt fuel mileage (though it does have multi-displacement which would account for 5-20% percent improvement depending on who you believe)

As far as the hemi being on there, it should be imo...not at the expense of an the LS engines per se. Both are pretty simple designs, for sure...but when does superior = complex? It doesn't have to be, to be superior, wouldn't you agree?


The Impala/Monte's are better examples and more current

DOD 5.3's get 18 city and 28 Highway

[88Nightmare]

The Impala/Monte's are better examples and more current

DOD 5.3's get 18 city and 28 Highway

I think non DOD 5.3's get like 16/20. Decent improvement. Doesnt seem like much, but when you are talkin about numbers that low, even just a few MPG will make a nice difference in your pocket when you get to the pump.

[Korndogg]

http://wardsauto.com/reports/2007/tenbest/intro/best_engines_2007/


you just proved my point for me...thanks

[Moparjim]

Valiant is correct - the lowish Hemi fuel milage ratings is not due to any inefficiency of the Hemi - it's actually very decent. The issue is every Mopar product is HEAVY, the 300C can weigh like 4800 lbs and the Mopar trucks aren't exactly light either.

[Prince Valiant]

The Impala/Monte's are better examples and more current

DOD 5.3's get 18 city and 28 HighwayNot exactly...the FWD drivetrain does have a couple of advantages with less rotational mass to spin. Plus, different size engines with different rotational masses and internal friction on top of the increased operational VE that a smaller engine will enjoy given equal driving conditions makes it less of a comparison.

But, given that even the monte is over 300lbs less (the camaro is over 600lbs less) on top of it's other chasis advantages from a fuel mileage point of view, it's exceedingly difficult to make a true apples to apples comparisons of just the engines themselves.

[BAD LS1]

Not exactly...the FWD drivetrain does have a couple of advantages with less rotational mass to spin. Plus, different size engines with different rotational masses and internal friction on top of the increased operational VE that a smaller engine will enjoy given equal driving conditions makes it less of a comparison.

But, given that even the monte is over 300lbs less (the camaro is over 600lbs less) on top of it's other chasis advantages from a fuel mileage point of view, it's exceedingly difficult to make a true apples to apples comparisons of just the engines themselves.

The monte is lighter heh? Its roughly the same as the Camaro at 3400-3500 lbs, the Impala and GP-GXP are closer to 4000

And FWD GM cars, as prolly other MFG's do not have as an efficient trans-axle due to a drive chain arrangment that connects the TC to the rest of the planetaries etc that sap alot of power and arent that hot at transfering it...

Not so sure the .4L diff in displacement warrants any frictional losses great enough to cause a substancial loss of economy.

But with the Camaro/Firebird comparo, that is not accurate either being its a DOD motor vs the LS1 which is not. One could assume the MPG of the 5.7L hemi woud be closer to that 18 mpg mark consistently w/o that bennefit.

Im currently testing my 5.3L DOD motor right now w/o the DOD in preperation for a camshaft to get an idea of the avg economy, which comes in at an avg of 20mpg right now in 15 degree weather with a 160 degree thermo stat.

[Prince Valiant]

The monte is lighter heh? Its roughly the same as the Camaro at 3400-3500 lbs, the Impala and GP-GXP are closer to 4000 Actually, curb wt for the IMP SS is listed at 3711lbs. The RWD 300C is listed at 4066 lbs. This is sourced from caranddriver.com. Like I said, over 300lbs difference.


And FWD GM cars, as prolly other MFG's do not have as an efficient trans-axle due to a drive chain arrangment that connects the TC to the rest of the planetaries etc that sap alot of power and arent that hot at transfering it...FWD transaxles have less mass to rotate/accelerate as a product of being more compact. This also lends itself to less friction losses and would therefore be more efficient.

We see examples of this on a dyno's where FWD vehicles tend to have less HP losses (on the order of 12-15%) vs that of a RWD vehicle where 15% losses would be considered excellent, and 17%-20% would be more the "norm". This efficiency would certainly be transfered to fuel mileage gains too.


Not so sure the .4L diff in displacement warrants any frictional losses great enough to cause a substancial loss of economy. Sure it does.

Look at a 2000 silverado Reg cab/short bed one with a 4.8 and one with a 5.3...only a .5L diference, and .1 off the one we talk about. This is before DOD.

The 4.8 is rated for 16/21
The 5.3 is rated for 16/20

Same tranny, gears, essentially same wt, and bed length.

That's ~ a 5% difference right there. Not eye-popping spectacular, but a difference none-the-less.

The smaller stroke of the 4.8 means less rotating mass, slower piston speeds, less area the pistons move over, so less friction to overcome to produce work. That, AND since the two engines would have to produce ~ same HP will traveling at the same speed, the 4.8 would have a fractionally higher VE at that given speed (this operational VE is what DOD tries to enhance...allowing it to generate more effecient combustion through higher dynamic cylinder pressures).


But with the Camaro/Firebird comparo, that is not accurate either being its a DOD motor vs the LS1 which is not. One could assume the MPG of the 5.7L hemi woud be closer to that 18 mpg mark consistently w/o that bennefit. No we can't. I mean, if the Ram truck is rated at 18 w/o DOD, why should we think the much smaller, more areodynamic and lighter 300C would drop to that level too?

Look at the Dodge Ram pick-ups. Reg cab/short box/2WD/auto trans:

Before DOD:14/18
After DOD:15/19

Same basic wt, same drivetrain, etc. DOD doesn't make too much difference in even lab comparissons, so it probably wouldn't make much difference in real world comparisons.

How about this then...compare the auto 5.7 GTO to the larger, heavier, less aerodynamic 300C and what do you get? a 16/21 for the GTO vs 17/25 for the 300C.

But, I think you've got a fundemental misunderstanding about what effects fuel mileage tom. You seem to give it more to the engine when it's not...it's the platform that engine is in.

The heavier a vehicle, the more work an engine has to perform to accelerate it at a given rate to a given speed. Lighter vehicles will have the advantage then in city driving.

Smaller vehicles will also have an advantage on the hwy...since drag is ~20-50% (possibly more depending on the speed) of the work an engine must overcome as a car goes down the hwy, the less drag, then the less work, and therefore less fuel consumed.

Small vehicles have the advantage becuase of frontal area. Even if a large car and a small car had the same Coefficient of drag, the actual drag forces would be less in the smaller car...since the formula is:

Force of Drag = Coefficient of drag x (.5 X density of air) x frontal area x velocity^2

This is part of the reason why two similar engines get vastly different mileage in different vehicles. And why two different engines get similar mileage in the same car (look at the 2004 monte...the 3.4 gets 32hwy mpg and the 3.8 gets 30hwy mpg).

But the short of it is this: You can't put an engine from a geo sprint into a full-size chevy pick-up and expect to average 34city and 55hwy mpg. Nor would I expect to stick a stock 5.3 in a sprint and expect 14 city and 21hwy mpg.

Plus, you haven't failed to make the case for what specifically makes the hemi less efficient. It's internal diminsion are very similar to the LS1's (hemi has shorter stroke, slightly large pistons), similar compression ratio (advantage to the LS), similar cam timing (smaller cam in the hemi, driving up dynamic compression vs the LS, more imporant than static ratio's), similar intake designs, similar exhaust designs, similar port cross-sectional areas (since comparing volume is apple to oranges on different heads), etc, etc, etc. Maybe there are small differences in main and rod journal diameters, but shouldn't be too big a difference at all. The hemi heads flow better, so pumping losses should actually favor the hemi.

But I wouldn't say that the hemi has any particular advantage nor disadvantage to the LS with regards to efficiency. Why do you?

[BAD LS1]

Ok... Thank you professor valiant!

A: You really didnt have to spend as much time as you did thinking of angles to attack my post from.

B: Do i care about all this "baffle everyone with facts and figures" stuff? Not really... I did give the mopar motor credit for at least being a push rod motor and making the list, Pretty sure i did rip on the boat anchor SOHC 4.6L however... But yet you trail off on this motor?

Lastly...

When is that car of yours gonna be out next? The monte hasnt ran anything in a while...

Im not looking for a debate and frankly you dont even need to respond to my post except in regards to when the race car will be out and about again.

[Poncho]

thats sad the auto 5.7 GTO got 16/21, while the stick got 17/29
and the 6.0 GTO auto also got 16/21 and the stick got 17/25

also isn't the 300C now on the W5A580 trans?? I would sure hope it would get better fuel ecomony with that horrid 2.82 ratio in the rear end.

17/25 w/ DOD and a low rear gear, impressive.

the GT-ho runs a 3.46 gear, obviously turning alot higher RPM on the freeway

either way, like tom i have nothing really to debate, just my info.

[Prince Valiant]

Lastly...

When is that car of yours gonna be out next? The monte hasnt ran anything in a while...

Im not looking for a debate and frankly you dont even need to respond to my post except in regards to when the race car will be out and about again.
oh boy. A race would show me :rolleyes:

I don't even bad mouth Your GOD (LS) and you cry like a baby.

As far as the valiant, you missed memo where I sold the engine to free up some cash for the duster. But alas, You can have your chance this summer against a 'teen in the valiant.

[BAD LS1]

oh boy. A race would show me :rolleyes:

I don't even bad mouth Your GOD (LS) and you cry like a baby.

As far as the valiant, you missed memo where I sold the engine to free up some cash for the duster. But alas, You can have your chance this summer against a 'teen in the valiant.

Umm i didnt bad mouth the "HEMI"... But you went off the deep end about deffending it for some odd reason... Like you needed to clear these facts for me...

All that knowledge and never a fast car to go along with it... what a shame.

[Poncho]

All that knowledge and never a fast car to go along with it... what a shame.


oh snap.. :popcorn

[Prince Valiant]

oh snap.. :popcornYou've never had a faster car, butterball :loser

You are at your saddest when you think you've got a friend :(

Umm i didnt bad mouth the "HEMI"... But you went off the deep end about deffending it for some odd reason... Like you needed to clear these facts for me... No, you didn't "bad mouth" it...but then, I didn't cry either.

...but you did imply that it wasn't very fuel efficient

Go figure the hemi is on there... I guess MPG wasnt a factor for wards lol I was just pointing out that the hemi, LIKE the LS series, is pretty efficient, and tried to reconcile the differences in apple to oranges comparisons.

If you've got a problem with it, so be it. :D

Oh, and I can't wait till next summer to line up the duster with the camaro!

oh snap!

[Poncho]

You've never had a faster car, butterball :loser

:confused

[HITMAN]

Actually, curb wt for the IMP SS is listed at 3711lbs. The RWD 300C is listed at 4066 lbs. This is sourced from caranddriver.com. Like I said, over 300lbs difference.

FWD transaxles have less mass to rotate/accelerate as... blah, blah, blah, ad infinitum

Wow, that was impressive... :sleep

[HITMAN]

You've never had a faster car, butterball :loser

You are at your saddest when you think you've got a friend :(
No, you didn't "bad mouth" it...but then, I didn't cry either.

...but you did imply that it wasn't very fuel efficient
I was just pointing out that the hemi, LIKE the LS series, is pretty efficient, and tried to reconcile the differences in apple to oranges comparisons.

If you've got a problem with it, so be it. :D

Oh, and I can't wait till next summer to line up the duster with the camaro!

oh snap!

Still name calling and posting up your bombastic prattle, I see. Nice to know you're consistent. :thumbsup

[Prince Valiant]

:confusedJust pointing out that while a beater and ugly and smelly, the valiant still would have beaten anything you've had to this point.

Also, should be pointed out that while you are correct, final drive ratio's can be important in improving the efficiency of a car, you got it horribly wrong.

First: Axle ratio's don't equal final drive ratio's.

You list the final drive for the GTO at 3.46. You have to account for the 0.70:1 O/D, and that thus leaves you with 2.42 final drive.

Then, you got it wrong...the current 300C's run a 3.06 axle ratio with a .83 O/D ratio leaving one with a 2.54 final drive ratio.

[Prince Valiant]

Wow, that was impressive... :sleepYou haven't gotten to a doctor for some insulin therapy yet? Be careful, while you might not be able to see them, a foot is a bad thing to lose.

And yep. I still name call where it hurts. Why would I change? I figure a good joke is always a good thing

[Poncho]

Just pointing out that while a beater and ugly and smelly, the valiant still would have beaten anything you've had to this point.

Also, should be pointed out that while you are correct, final drive ratio's can be important in improving the efficiency of a car, you got it horribly wrong.

First: Axle ratio's don't equal final drive ratio's.

You list the final drive for the GTO at 3.46. You have to account for the 0.70:1 O/D, and that thus leaves you with 2.42 final drive.

Then, you got it wrong...the current 300C's run a 3.06 axle ratio with a .83 O/D ratio leaving one with a 2.54 final drive ratio.

then call Chrysler cuz they're lying their asses off saying just the SRT-8 uses a 3.06

[HITMAN]

You haven't gotten to a doctor for some insulin therapy yet? Be careful, while you might not be able to see them, a foot is a bad thing to lose.

Oh, I think I'll be able to find my foot. It'll be sticking out of your ass when you get your pile on the road. :thumbsup


And yep. I still name call where it hurts. Why would I change? I figure a good joke is always a good thing

Oh the pain...:rolf The problem with you lack-o-logic here is: When have your put-downs actually been any good? Your insults are mediocre 7th grade level, at best. In our last engagement, your math won the day for you, but your vapid attempts at derision were just plain flat. Much like your Valiant's vaunted performance... :yawn:

[Prince Valiant]

then call Chrysler cuz they're lying their asses off saying just the SRT-8 uses a 3.06it's true. They used to use 2.82's, but now shows 3.06's on everything with a v8 and RWD. AWD's use the 3.40's ratio's.

But whether it's 2.82 or 3.06 we are talking about, it still leaves us with either 2.34 or 2.54 vs the goat's 2.42's. The difference of which b/w the goat and 300 is virtually nill.

Oh the pain... The problem with you lack-o-logic here is: When have your put-downs actually been any good? Your insults are mediocre 7th grade level, at best. In our last engagement, your math won the day for you, but your vapid attempts at derision were just plain flat. Much like your Valiant's vaunted performance... Listen, I can't help if you don't appreciate rib pokes directed your way...but please don't think I post them for your appreciation either. Although, I do admit I thought you might like that last one as it did make a referrence to your earlier "problem" of dozing off and your stated reason.

What I want to know is this: Are you then going to race against the valiant? Personally I hope so...I'll buy some hooters wings for you if you win.

[Poncho]

so when you were making a point it mattered, but suddenly it doesn't?

i really don't give a shit. nuff said. so you don't have to bother proving anything to me. I don't want one, and can't afford one, so you can peddle your hemi "marketing genious" gospel to someone else.

i'm not meaning this as an insult, but basically nobody cares, and you're preaching to nobody. it's falling on deaf ears. While your points are obviously rediculously well thought out (which I respect, and also wonder wtf? who cares) they aren't going to change anyones minds.

basically there are alot of arguements why the hemi should and shouldn't be on the list, or why or why not the LSx motors shouldn't. Personally I pick the LSx platform.

[MurphysLaw88GT]

Holy shit, yet another BCM shitstorm. Lets name this one Hurricane Ditka.

[BAD LS1]

So about this duster.... Gonna be runnin' single D's heh?? After all thats what its gonna take to drive past the camaro with its current nitrous setup...

[Poncho]

don't forget the GTslow, since apparently it's never run better than the valiant. Damn I never noticed the valiant on the top 50 list in the 12's there.

13.0s stock are slow for a 3800lb car + a manatee driver , and 111mph traps. dang now it's a 2 ton kangaroo turd.

[HITMAN]

Listen, I can't help if you don't appreciate rib pokes directed your way...but please don't think I post them for your appreciation either. Although, I do admit I thought you might like that last one as it did make a referrence to your earlier "problem" of dozing off and your stated reason.

Oh, I know you post them because you think the crowd might appreciate some humor. I'm just telling you from a "Simon Cowell" stand point, don't quit your day job to start writing humor for Dave Letterman. His monologues don't need to get any shittier, and I'd really hate the thought of you having to take it in the ass off of Times Square for $10 a crack (pun intended) just to get bus fare back to Milwaukee... :rolf


What I want to know is this: Are you then going to race against the valiant? Personally I hope so...I'll buy some hooters wings for you if you win.

What gives you the idea that it was your Valiant I was referring to when I mentioned the word "pile" ? :devil

[Prince Valiant]

so when you were making a point it mattered, but suddenly it doesn't?Um, no. I was showing you how stupid and wrong your example was in the first place :rolleyes:

[Prince Valiant]

His monologues don't need to get any shittier, and I'd really hate the thought of you having to take it in the ass off of Times Square for $10 a crack (pun intended) just to get bus fare back to Milwaukee... :rolf You say this as if you may have had personal experience. Only you didn't have a day job to quit :(

What gives you the idea that it was your Valiant I was referring to when I mentioned the word "pile" ? :devilLooking at the duster, I don't think I'll have it up and running till late summer...and that'll be with a stock 440, not the 500 this year (that might be a year or two off yet).

And anyways, I thought I might give you a decent chance by putting up the valiant. :devil

[Prince Valiant]

So about this duster.... Gonna be runnin' single D's heh?? After all thats what its gonna take to drive past the camaro with its current nitrous setup...We'll just have to wait and see. Trust me though, I'm not worried.

[BOSS LX]

I would take an LS motor any day over the over rated hemi...:)










Choad!;)

[BAD LS1]

We'll just have to wait and see. Trust me though, I'm not worried.

See thats the problem... we all have to just wait and see... All i have to do is wait for my bottle to get filled and wait the two minutes it takes to fill the tank up with 93....

This argument is now, not 5 years from now if not longer.

Ill come around asking where this "single D"car is in spring though thats gonna smack the shit eating grin that resembles a carp off the front of my camaro... Cuz my lowly 10 teens LS1 will be looking for some of that amc hornet or whatever...

[Prince Valiant]

I would take an LS motor any day over the over rated hemi...:) And oddly, this only proves my point further. :thumbsup

[Prince Valiant]

See thats the problem... we all have to just wait and see... All i have to do is wait for my bottle to get filled and wait the two minutes it takes to fill the tank up with 93....
That's a bunch of BS tom. You've had your car for how long now? Since 01? Trust me, when you got that car, you sure's a hell didn't have to fill a bottle and run low 10's. I remember you beating the valiant then sure...but thank god for you it was a 1/4 mile and not an 1/8th mile track. You had to run me down every time.

Hell, i remember two years ago how you worked to get 11's.

I buy a car with no engine, trans, or rear and what, its supposed to run 9's then and there?

Be patient. It won't be 5 years. I might try to give it a shot with the 440 this summer. And oh yeah...both engines will run pump premium gas.

[HITMAN]

You say this as if you may have had personal experience. Only you didn't have a day job to quit :(

See, that's just what I'm talking about. That's as lame a comeback as any I've ever seen. That meets the standards of classification E.W.* Thank you for making my point. :loser

*Extremely Weak




Looking at the duster, I don't think I'll have it up and running till late summer...and that'll be with a stock 440, not the 500 this year (that might be a year or two off yet).

And anyways, I thought I might give you a decent chance by putting up the valiant. :devil

And the hits just keep on a-rollin... :yawn:

You must really think my Cobra's a turd. Good, that will make smacking you around that much more entertaining. You see, I know what your thinking. You have nothing to lose. If I win, all I did was beat down some POS that I shouldn't even bother racing. If you win you've got bragging rights. You forget what a target your supercilious ass has become. There will be some crow served the day we race. Bring your favorite condiments and a doggy bag. I think you'll need them...;)

[Prince Valiant]

You must really think my Cobra's a turd. A turd? No. Beatable with the valiant? With an outside chance, yes.


Good, that will make smacking you around that much more entertaining. Such feirce hyperbole...i'm so scared :rolleyes:


You see, I know what your thinking. You have nothing to lose.That's pretty much the case regardless of what I race you with. What, do you think "pride" or "rep" is really on the line in a pathetic race? Please homey.


If I win, all I did was beat down some POS
Were you under the illusion that something else would happen if you won? Girls might start paying attention to you? Kids might stop laughing at you? Please, ellaborate on what you think happens when you win a meaningless race?

that I shouldn't even bother racing. You should race whatever you want man...it's up to you.

If you win you've got bragging rights.Don't flatter yourself...what makes you think I'd brag about beating you?

You forget what a target your supercilious ass has become.:confused Okay, now you are just being Gay. Please stop...it's making me uncomforable.

And if anyone else shares his sentiments, please make them known so that I can protect my sweet, virgin ass! :rolf

There will be some crow served the day we race. Bring your favorite condiments and a doggy bag. I think you'll need them...;) Well, we'll have to see about that. But don't worry, if I lose, it won't be a big deal to me. No matter if it was the valiant or the duster.

[HITMAN]

A turd? No. Beatable with the valiant? With an outside chance, yes.

This made me think of another situation. Allow me to paraphrase:

Valiant:What are my chances?
Hitman: Not good.
Valiant: You mean, not good like one out of a hundred?
Hitman: I'd say more like one out of a million.
[pause]
Valiant: So you're telling me there's a chance...

:thumbsup


That's pretty much the case regardless of what I race you with. What, do you think "pride" or "rep" is really on the line in a pathetic race? Please homey.

Nope, just my crap verses yours. And the sting that comes from losing to someone you dislike.



Were you under the illusion that something else would happen if you won? Girls might start paying attention to you? Kids might stop laughing at you? Please, ellaborate on what you think happens when you win a meaningless race?

If it's all so meaningless, then why bother building and racing a fast car at all? Go back to collecting stamps and playing D&D with the rest of the Pocket Protector Brigade...:rolleyes:

Try that one on somebody that doesn't understand the rush and ego-stroke that owning and racing a fast car is. :punch:




Don't flatter yourself...what makes you think I'd brag about beating you?

The lady dost protest too much, methinks... :rolf



:confused Okay, now you are just being Gay. Please stop...it's making me uncomforable.

And if anyone else shares his sentiments, please make them known so that I can protect my sweet, virgin ass! :rolf

If you think that's uncomfortable, you should have to deal with your sad attempts at humor from this end. :loser



Well, we'll have to see about that. But don't worry, if I lose, it won't be a big deal to me. No matter if it was the valiant or the duster.

Sure it wont...

[MurphysLaw88GT]

:popcorn :popcorn :popcorn :flamet

[Prince Valiant]

Valiant:What are my chances?
Hitman: Not good.
Valiant: You mean, not good like one out of a hundred?
Hitman: I'd say more like one out of a million.
[pause]
Valiant: So you're telling me there's a chance... Your no Lauren Holly buddy.

(I know...your retort is I'm no Jim Carrey. Or even Jim Nieghbors. Certainly no Don Gartlis)


Nope, just my crap verses yours. And the sting that comes from losing to someone you dislike. Me dislike you? That's unpossible! :rolf

Hey, I wouldn't make so many fat jokes if I didn't like you.

If it's all so meaningless, then why bother building and racing a fast car at all? Because it is just meaningless fun?

A stupid, fun, immature hobby that I enjoy. I guess some people find more in it, but not me.


Go back to collecting stamps and playing D&D with the rest of the Pocket Protector Brigade...:rolleyes: Lol...you saying that is not without it's irony.


Try that one on somebody that doesn't understand the rush and ego-stroke that owning and racing a fast car is. :punch: I guess if you are of limited means.


If you think that's uncomfortable, you should have to deal with your sad attempts at humor from this end. :loser then it seems quite sadomasochistic that you keep coming back for more. You sick freak.


Sure it wont...If it did, why wouldn't I be among those who every year re-invent their cars year in and year out to try and "keep up"?

[HITMAN]

Your no Lauren Holly buddy.

(I know...your retort is I'm no Jim Carrey. Or even Jim Nieghbors. Certainly no Don Gartlis)

Hehe, you're not even Don Knotts.:rolf

BTW, just exactly who is Don Gartlis, anyway?


Me dislike you? That's unpossible! :rolf

Hey, I wouldn't make so many fat jokes if I didn't like you.

Well, since it seems to be the only weapon in your pathetic repertoire of gags, I'm gonna have to say, "Yeah."



Because it is just meaningless fun?

A stupid, fun, immature hobby that I enjoy. I guess some people find more in it, but not me.

Right, because it's such a cheap hobby. Collecting beer cans and playing WoW are "stupid and immature" "meaningless fun." Racing can be all of these as well, but the whole ego thing and the costs involved usually makes it more than just a whim. But, seeing as you must be one of the idle rich, I guess that it's just one more log on the fire for you. Along with your Polo ponies, Porsche, P-51 and pool, you pretentious purveyor of pompous pablum.


Lol...you saying that is not without it's irony.

Right. I know I fairly drip with nerdy ponderous explanations as to why snow tires work... ;)


I guess if you are of limited means.

:rolleyes: "Oh Jeeves, tea will be served in the Florida room." Good grief, you must be worth Billions. Pardon me for breathing your air, your Royal Wonderfulness.


then it seems quite sadomasochistic that you keep coming back for more. You sick freak.

Actually, it's more like gaping at a train wreck to see the mangled bodies. It still makes me a sick, twisted freak, just not for the same reasons.


If it did, why wouldn't I be among those who every year re-invent their cars year in and year out to try and "keep up"?

"Limited means?" Oh wait, you have enough money to buy and sell Bill Gates, so that can't be it. And it couldn't be because you're not smart enough to build a six-second street car. No, that couldn't possibly be it. Everyone has been witness to your seemingly limitless knowledge of all things automotive... :alcoholic
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/images/smile/cwm40.gif I know, you're lonely in your mansion, nobody wants to play Monopoly with you anymore 'cause you always win, so you've decided to give all of us mere mortals a chance (albeit a slim one) at actually beating you at something. How magnanimous of you... http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/images/smilies/bowdown.gif

[Prince Valiant]

Hehe, you're not even Don Knotts.:rolf

BTW, just exactly who is Don Gartlis, anyway?Hey! This must be you:
http://gabbyhooch.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/spellman.jpg

Keep fighting the good fight!


Well, since it seems to be the only weapon in your pathetic repertoire of gags, I'm gonna have to say, "Yeah." :confused "yeah" to what?


Right, because it's such a cheap hobby. Collecting beer cans and playing WoW are "stupid and immature" "meaningless fun." Racing can be all of these as well, but the whole ego thing and the costs involved usually makes it more than just a whim. But, seeing as you must be one of the idle rich, I guess that it's just one more log on the fire for you. Along with your Polo ponies, Porsche, P-51 and pool, Um, did I ever say it was cheap? Did I ever say I was rich? I'm looking.....nope. Don't see where I even hint that. For someone who sooooo good at spelling, you sure do suck at reading.

I can't help that I don't live and die with losing races. I've learned how to win, and I've learned how to lose. I've so much as only rolled my eyes when I've trashed an engine. Why cry over it? It is what it is...just a fun hobby. If you think the fate of the world hinges on it, so be it...

...but just chill, yo.

you pretentious purveyor of pompous pablum. this is great irony :thumbsup

Right. I know I fairly drip with nerdy ponderous explanations as to why snow tires work... ;) Sadly, you seem not to know what "irony" means :(


:rolleyes: "Oh Jeeves, tea will be served in the Florida room." Good grief, you must be worth Billions. Pardon me for breathing your air, your Royal Wonderfulness. ...and your reading skills continue to deteriorate. Maybe "limited means" refers to your need to have your ego stoked by a fast car...because it's appearently your only avenue to having his "ego-stroked" :rolleyes:

I feel like I'm dealing with a guy with an idiot savant...you can spell amazingly, but can't do anything else. The ultimate one-trick-pony.


:"Limited means?" Oh wait, you have enough money to buy and sell Bill Gates, so that can't be it. And it couldn't be because you're not smart enough to build a six-second street car. No, that couldn't possibly be it. Everyone has been witness to your seemingly limitless knowledge of all things automotive... :alcoholic
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/images/smile/cwm40.gif I know, you're lonely in your mansion, nobody wants to play Monopoly with you anymore 'cause you always win, so you've decided to give all of us mere mortals a chance (albeit a slim one) at actually beating you at something. How magnanimous of you... http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/images/smilies/bowdown.gifSee, now I must admit...I'm a little worried about racing you. I mean, what if I win? You seem to make WAY too big deal about this...no need for hystronics and all.:rolleyes:

[Poncho]

l-o-freakin-l

[HITMAN]

Hey! This must be you:
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/3298/HTMNvsU.jpg
Keep fighting the good fight!

Will do.


:confused "yeah" to what?


Originally Posted by Prince Valiant
Me dislike you? That's unpossible!

Hey, I wouldn't make so many fat jokes if I didn't like you.
:durr




Um, did I ever say it was cheap? Did I ever say I was rich? I'm looking.....nope. Don't see where I even hint that. For someone who sooooo good at spelling, you sure do suck at reading.

I can't help that I don't live and die with losing races. I've learned how to win, and I've learned how to lose. I've so much as only rolled my eyes when I've trashed an engine. Why cry over it? It is what it is...just a fun hobby. If you think the fate of the world hinges on it, so be it...

...but just chill, yo.

I infer it from what IMO is your disingenuous ho-hum attitude. You claim it's all meaningless. Why post here? Why rise to challenges? Why offer an opinion at all? You claim to have run 12.90 @ 106. Why bother putting that in your profile if it wasn't a source of pride? You brag to Tommy about making him have to play catch-up because you got out on him so bad. If it means nothing to you, why bring it up? Your car should be a source of pride for you. It's a nasty little sleeper that probably catches a lot of people unaware, and you did it on a small budget. Good for you, you should be proud. So stop with the "who cares" shit already. :rolleyes:


this is great irony :thumbsup

Sadly, you seem not to know what "irony" means :(

I know what it means. Do you? Do some of the these faults fit my own personality, sure. But I'm not arguing with me...;)


...and your reading skills continue to deteriorate. Maybe "limited means" refers to your need to have your ego stoked by a fast car...because it's appearently your only avenue to having his "ego-stroked" :rolleyes:

Maybe? Maybe you should go read your dictionary again...

From dictionary.com
2. means,
a. available resources, esp. money: They lived beyond their means.
b. considerable financial resources; riches: a man of means.

The proper word to convey what you say you "maybe" meant would have been "scope" or "focus," but not "means." The wrong word changes the context of what you said. I'm fairly intelligent, but I don't read minds. If your vocabulary is too weak to put up an effective argument, then perhaps you might want to lower your sights on an easier target, like say Junk MX6. I'm quite sure that you'll be able to dazzle him with your mediocrity...



I feel like I'm dealing with a guy with an idiot savant... The ultimate one-trick-pony.

Talking to the reflection in your monitor, again?


See, now I must admit...I'm a little worried about racing you. I mean, what if I win? You seem to make WAY too big deal about this...no need for hystronics and all.:rolleyes:

Even though I risk redundancy, I must once again quote Shakespeare: "The Lady dost protest too much, methinks..." :thumbsup

Say now, if it's no big deal to you, why even respond? You continue to prattle on and on about how this hobby means nothing to you, yet you keep coming back like a moth to a flame when you feel your expertise has been challenged.

I say you're being disingenuous about your level of passion for the hobby and you've stated your peace to the contrary. If I was truly wrong in my assessment of you, your one denial should have been enough, and you could've just let the delusional fat-guy ramble on.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what I think. I can't continue to argue the inarguable. Only you know what is truly in your own mind. If it really matters so little to you, I actually feel sorry for you. To have no real passion for the things you like seems like such a shame. I, on the other hand, really like cars. Modding them, racing them, bench racing, it's all pretty much fun to me, and if I couldn't do it anymore, I would be very sad. Would it be the end of life for me? No. I still have lots of other diversions and I would move on with my life. But, while I can still do it, I will do it to the fullest and enjoy it as much as I can. Which means I will really enjoy whipping you like a red-headed step child. And if perchance I lose, oh well, I won't like it one bit, but it won't be more than a few hours of disappointment. Afterward, I will just go back to the drawing board to analyze my failure, so that I can rectify whatever shortcomings are present in my vehicle or myself . That way, it wont be a repeat performance. :thumbsup

I look forward to battling it out with you for real on the streets this summer. :shades

[Poncho]

Jeez guys, with all this popcorn i'm eating watching this thread, you need to knock it off, it'll make me get fat.

[Prince Valiant]

Jeez guys, with all this popcorn i'm eating watching this thread, you need to knock it off, it'll make me get fat.Um, your already there :confused

And have been for quite some time :goof

[Prince Valiant]

You claim it's all meaningless. Why post here? Why rise to challenges? Meaningless doesn't equal "No fun" :confused

Why offer an opinion at all?Why do people argue politics? Sure, politics actually means something and is of great importance, but two yahoo's on an internet board will settle nothing nor affect the course of the world.

Because they enjoy it. That's all.

You claim to have run 12.90 @ 106. Why bother putting that in your profile if it wasn't a source of pride?Taking pride in an accomplishment does not mean that if I lose a race I'll somehow be bothered by it.

Plus, you make it sound hard to put my PR in my profile, lol. Yeah, it was such a "bother" :rolf


You brag to Tommy about making him have to play catch-up because you got out on him so bad. If it means nothing to you, why bring it up? You missed the point of that then...I wasn't bragging, he was bagging on me for not trying to get the duster up and ready for spring. I was pointing out to him that his car 1) Wasn't a 10 second car in it's first year and 2) At one time, even his vaunted camaro wasn't all too much faster than the much despised valiant. Just pointing out that it doesn't happen overnight.


Your car should be a source of pride for you. It is. But again, this doesn't mean that if it's beaten I hastily begin planning a new combo to ensure I'm not ever beaten again. It is what it is, and I enjoy it. I don't let loses diminish that one iota. Like I said...it's always been fun, but when I lose, "who cares"?





Maybe? Maybe you should go read your dictionary again...

From dictionary.com
2. means,
a. available resources, esp. money: They lived beyond their means.
b. considerable financial resources; riches: a man of means. Maybe you should read, and then comprehend your dictionary then. Let's look at it again together:
From dictionary.com
2. means,
a. available resources, esp. money: They lived beyond their means.
b. considerable financial resources; riches: a man of means. You read b correctly...it refers to money. But in A, it refers to resources, noting especially money. Not exclusively money. Not only money. Not resources only refers to money, and money only, so that when people write "means" they can only be refering to money.

In this case, if the only resource available to you to stroke your ego is a fast car, then I say that I feel sorry for you.

I used the correct term. You just infered it as you wished, very narrowly and incorrectly.


Talking to the reflection in your monitor, again? Holy 2nd grade flashback Hitman!


I say you're being disingenuous about your level of passion for the hobby and you've stated your peace to the contrary. If I was truly wrong in my assessment of you, your one denial should have been enough, and you could've just let the delusional fat-guy ramble on. No, one denial isn't enough, when you continue to get it wrong. I've never said I didn't have a passion for it...I just contend that a)losing is no big deal to me and 2) I don't make it out to more than it should be (as you yourself alludes to later)

And if perchance I lose, oh well, I won't like it one bit, but it won't be more than a few hours of disappointment. Afterward, I will just go back to the drawing board to analyze my failure, so that I can rectify whatever shortcomings are present in my vehicle or myself . That way, it wont be a repeat performance. :thumbsup And this is where I differ. My enjoyment in the hobby doesn't hinge on only, or even largely hinge on my ability to win races.

I look forward to battling it out with you for real on the streets this summer. :shadesGood, as do I.