Hey Military personel...both former and current

[Yooformula]

I was watching future weapons tonight on Discovery and saw the Dragon Skin body armor and its testing. I then read online that the US govt told soldiers that if they continue to wear the privately purchased body armor that they would be denied death benefits?!?!? All soldiers were forced to remove privately purchased body armor... Is this true? If so....HOLY SHIT! The funny thing is that reports came from the field that a few generals were wearing this particular body armor but their soldiers werent allowed to?!?!

I also saw a report done by the DoD, that 80% of the Marines that we killed recently would have survived had their body armor been better.:wow Considering the Dragon skin is only $6000, I say its a steal to protect yourself and if you arent asking the govt to pay for it, how can they deny your death claim benefits?:wooo :fire

[88Nightmare]

wow, if that is true, that is pretty shitty.

[USMARINE1108]

The plates that go into the flack jacket now are rated to stop a 7.62 round (7.62x51 NATO, or .308, same as .308 Win). Those plates cover your chest and back. I've never tried it, thank God. The rest of the protective gear issued is meant to stop shrapnel. As far as what you're talking about with privately purchased body armor, that's news to me. I know as far as weapon accesories (lights, vertical grips, 3 pt slings, Aimpoints, ACOG's and sometimes rail systems) it is up to the CO's discression. Do you have a link?

[Breecher_7]

Yes its true, that is the policy. Its true that the issued flack jackets will stop a 7.62 nato from some range. But not a steel core 7.62 from point blank, that dragonskin is f'n awesome. If i was still in I would purchase it for sure. I have seen it in person when it was under development, they were trying to get a gov't contract at that time.

[Yooformula]

http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/dragon-skin-survivors.php

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/48/16999

http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_060420_dragon3,,00.html

[hrsp]

damn thats news to me

[wikked]

also:
http://brewcitymuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17897&highlight=dragon+skin

[Karps TA]

That's the stuff that frustrates me to read. I watch that Future Weapons show and see the billions we spend on new technology, but then we can't supply the guys out there now with the best equipment available. That dragon skin looked amazing with what it would stop.

You know that's all because of kickbacks too. The company who is supplying the current vests is paying someone off so they can keep the contract.

[Heat Seeker WS6]

What are the chances that the armour could be put to use by the 'other side'?

[fireguyrick]

I look at it in two ways. One is that the current armor is cheaper to buy then the dragon skin armor most likely. Then two is that there is a very valid reason to prevent troops from buying their own armor. The reason for that is not all armor is equal (obviously), and the military does not want troops buying armor that is inferior to the current stuff (and you KNOW that would happen).

Besides alot of armor out there is way to clumsy to wear.

Rick

[Bobby72GTO]

I wear whatever they give me. Our armor can stop armor piercing 7.62 rounds. We have plates front and back and on the sides under our arms.

[Yooformula]

I look at it in two ways. One is that the current armor is cheaper to buy then the dragon skin armor most likely. Then two is that there is a very valid reason to prevent troops from buying their own armor. The reason for that is not all armor is equal (obviously), and the military does not want troops buying armor that is inferior to the current stuff (and you KNOW that would happen).

Besides alot of armor out there is way to clumsy to wear.

Rick
What happens when the military issued equipment is inferior and more clumsy? Sounds to me like a govt contractor just wants to be the sole provider with no competition.

[PonyKiller87]

What are the chances that the armour could be put to use by the 'other side'?

Probably about the same as the chances of them getting other things we have like m16s, the more money they have the better the chances.


Im suprised they didnt show the effects of an M16 on the dragon skin, I think the smaller, higher velocity round might eventualy penetrate that thing. Also it would have been nice to see what a sniper rifle at like 300 yards would do to it. Just from the aspect of showing how well it works.

[y2kws6]

The other reason for the liablility and death benifits is the certification that the government has on the current supplies. They need to approve what is being sent out into the field. The dragon armor might resist more, but also might have other flaws. Expense is one thing, but the difference between the two might not be that much different. I am not sure, I have not done any research on it.
There more than likely is a contract specific with kickbacks, it is a business world.

Dan

[Yooformula]

Did anyone catch the episode where they layed a dummy body on top of a shrapnel grenade? The body armor took the full blast meanwhile the inner lining was perfectly in tact.

[UnderPSI]

[QUOTE=PonyKiller87;229478]Im suprised they didnt show the effects of an M16 on the dragon skin, I think the smaller, higher velocity round might eventualy penetrate that thing. QUOTE]


They used an M16 with steel core bullets and it stopped them no problem. They shot it 18 times in the same 3" circle.

[Reverend Cooper]

yoo did ya watch the whole show it was a really good one

[Rhiannon]

What happens when the military issued equipment is inferior and more clumsy? Sounds to me like a govt contractor just wants to be the sole provider with no competition.

Hey, I'm a Marine and once you sign the contract, they own you. They can throw you in the brigg if you get a sunburn! Trust me, the Marine Corps has less money than all of the other branches and they are certainly not going to spend $6000.00 per person for that armor. BTW>>>> We still had sh*t from WW2 while I was in. While the "Chairforce" is sitting in A/C barracks in Iraq, we are in tents. We are hard core and for the most part "brainwashed". I know I am.......and I wouldn't trade it for all the money in the world!:usa

[Yooformula]

Hey Rhi...read.....the military NEVER paid for the personal armor in question. My question was more along the lines of how could they tell the soldiers not to wear their own armor if they pay for it and it has been proven to be better than the govt issued AND their own generals are seen on the ground wearing them.

[Rhiannon]

Hey Rhi...read.....the military NEVER paid for the personal armor in question. My question was more along the lines of how could they tell the soldiers not to wear their own armor if they pay for it and it has been proven to be better than the govt issued AND their own generals are seen on the ground wearing them.

Like I said before, once you are "owned" they can literally make you do anything they want or it would be insubordination. I'm surprised you never joined! You'd be good at it. :puppyeyes

[fireguyrick]

Like I said before, once you are "owned" they can literally make you do anything they want or it would be insubordination. I'm surprised you never joined! You'd be good at it. :puppyeyes

As a former Marine you should know better then this. There is only so far that the military can make you do. I served with 2nd FAST out of Yorktown, and my NCO's and officers were some of the strictest that I had ever dealt with. However, there was only so far that they could go. Sure, I had set rules that I was suppose to follow even "off the clock," but it is not like they could dictate whom I fraternized with (aside from Officers).

Anyways, it would be nice to see some armor like the dragon skin stuff. If it really does hold up as well as it appears it would be great. Mostly, IMHO, because it looks fairly flexible, which should provide wase of motion in it.

Rick

By the way Rhi, where and when did you serve?

[Breecher_7]

I did a little research yesterday and contacted my friends back at EOD mobile unit 7 out of coronado, ca wich is the unit was part of. There has been alot of controversy over this armor there lately with enough complaing and hard facts they have just been allowed to order dragonksin armor for everyone in the EOD units as well as the seal teams on the governments tab. Oh and if you think your flack jacket is going to stop a armor 7.62 round, think again. It doesnt have a chance on a point blank shot. Ive seen the effects of exlposives on body armor as well as it was part of my job, the standard military issue vest is SHREDDED by a frag grenade.

I still have that episode of futureweapons on TIVO, anyone wants to watch it i guess you could come over.....

[y2kws6]

Hey, I'm a Marine and once you sign the contract, they own you. They can throw you in the brigg if you get a sunburn! Trust me, the Marine Corps has less money than all of the other branches and they are certainly not going to spend $6000.00 per person for that armor. BTW>>>> We still had sh*t from WW2 while I was in. While the "Chairforce" is sitting in A/C barracks in Iraq, we are in tents. We are hard core and for the most part "brainwashed". I know I am.......and I wouldn't trade it for all the money in the world!:usa

Not to pick a fight, just point out the obvious. Who is the smart one?

I am out in the heat like the rest of you working on the planes, but when I am not.....A/C here I come. Including in that is the big screen TV, Food, Soda, and 24/7 internet.

I do not think I had it ruff in the desert for the 2 years other than working for hours sometime in the 155 degree heat. I feel that my spouse had it worse attempting to take care of the two boys by herself.

I do believe that we are all in this together, you choose your path and I chose mine. Thank you to everyone for serving.

Dan Kuehn
14 years Air Force Reserve

[PonyKiller87]

Not to pick a fight, just point out the obvious. Who is the smart one?

I am out in the heat like the rest of you working on the planes, but when I am not.....A/C here I come. Including in that is the big screen TV, Food, Soda, and 24/7 internet.

I do not think I had it ruff in the desert for the 2 years other than working for hours sometime in the 155 degree heat. I feel that my spouse had it worse attempting to take care of the two boys by herself.

I do believe that we are all in this together, you choose your path and I chose mine. Thank you to everyone for serving.

Dan Kuehn
14 years Air Force Reserve

I agree, during times of war such as this, the departmental(army vs AF v Navy vs Marines) bickering gets kinda dumb. When theres not a war going on and nobodys ass is on the line, Im all for it, it gives you something to do, but right now its not really needed is it?

[fireguyrick]

I will defend the Air Force somewhat. I was impressed with the units I worked with from the Air Force, however, they were not your typical units (CCT and PJs).

Rick

[Cryptic]

my naval career was spent 1 mile above sea level... go figure...

[Poncho]

Probably about the same as the chances of them getting other things we have like m16s, the more money they have the better the chances.


Im suprised they didnt show the effects of an M16 on the dragon skin, I think the smaller, higher velocity round might eventualy penetrate that thing. Also it would have been nice to see what a sniper rifle at like 300 yards would do to it. Just from the aspect of showing how well it works.

Do M4's use the same rounds?? thats what they're using in Iraq, hell they are still using sniper rifles back from WW2.

[fireguyrick]

An M4 is basically a modified M16.

Rick

[Poncho]

An M4 is basically a modified M16.

Rick


I'm well aware of that, however, I was wondering if they used the same rounds, as perhaps the same kind of round would be less suited for the "shorter version" of the M16?

[fireguyrick]

Yes, it uses the 5.56 x 45 NATO round.

Rick

[300pny]

I was in for 6 years and knew from the start I wouldn't want to stay. The medical care you get is horific so them saying you can't wear certain armor is no surprise. I took my disability, education benifts and got the heck out.

[Breecher_7]

Brought this back from the dead huh? Damn you have alot of time on your hands!!!!!

[300pny]

Brought this back from the dead huh? Damn you have alot of time on your hands!!!!!

Some days more than others...Oops wait that dosn't apply to the post Hmmmm let me toss in a GO MILITARY!!!

[MurphysLaw88GT]

I'm well aware of that, however, I was wondering if they used the same rounds, as perhaps the same kind of round would be less suited for the "shorter version" of the M16?

Take your pick.....
(NATO: SS109; U.S.: M855)
and others...
Cartridge, Ball, L2A1 (United Kingdom): 5.56x45mm FN SS109 equivalent produced by Radway Green.
Cartridge, Tracer, L1A1 (United Kingdom): 5.56x45mm tracer compliment to L2A1, also produced by Radway Green.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56mm, Ball, M193 (United States): 5.56x45mm 55-grain ball cartridge.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56mm, Grenade, M195 (United States): 5.56x45mm grenade launching blank.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56mm, Tracer, M196 (United States): 5.56x45mm 54-grain tracer cartridge, red cartridge tip.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56mm, Ball, M202 (United States): 5.56x45mm 58-grain FN SSX822 cartridge
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56mm, Ball, XM287 (United States): 5.56x45mm 68-grain ball cartridge produced by Industries Valcartier, Inc. An Improved version was also produced designated XM779.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56mm, Tracer, XM288 (United States): 5.56x45mm 68-grain tracer cartridge produced by Industries Valcartier, Inc. An Improved version was also produced designated XM780.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56mm, Grenade, M755 (United States): 5.56x45mm grenade launching blank specifically for the M234 launcher.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56mm, Ball, XM777 (United States): 5.56x45mm ball cartridge.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56mm, Tracer, XM778 (United States): 5.56x45mm tracer cartridge.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56mm, Ball, M855 (United States): 5.56x45mm 62-grain FN SS109 ball cartridge.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56mm, Tracer, M856 (United States): 5.56x45mm 64-grain FN L110 tracer cartridge
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56mm, Armor Piercing, M995 (United States): 5.56x45mm 52-grain AP cartridge, black cartridge tip.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56mm, Tracer, XM996 (United States): 5.56x45mm so-called "Dim Tracer" with reduced effect primarily for use with night vision devices.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56mm, Special Ball, Long Range, Mk 262 Mod 0/1 (United States): 5.56x45mm 77-grain Open-Tipped Match/Hollow-Point Boat-Tail cartridge. Mod 0 features Sierra Matchking bullet, while Mod 1 features either Nosler or Sierra bullet.
Cartridge, 5.64mm, Ball, MLU-26/P (United States): Early USAF designation for 5.56x45mm ball cartridge produced by Remington.
:devil

[USMARINE1108]

An M16 has a 20 inch barrel while the carbine version (M4) has a 14.5 inch barrel. Other than that, mostly same same. They are both 1/7 twist barrels and fire the same ammo. Due to the longer barrel and distance between the sights, the M16 has a longer range and is easily fired more accurately. The M4 is used mostly where targets are in closer ranges, and when the longer, heavier M16 would get caught up on things (clearing houses).


And no, we are not using WWII sniper rifles.........what you must be thinking of is the M21. They are another version (some upgraded parts, stock, longer barrel and added glass) of the M14. The .mil put a bunch of them back into service with a lot of success in the hands of designated marksmen. They are leaning towards a semi auto as a replacement for the M40, most likely something in a AR-10 platform. As far as engaging multiple targets from a distance, it makes sence over a bolt gun. However, the M40 will be around for a long time. Snipers have this thing about giving up their bolt guns.

[Teufelhunden]

I was in for 6 years and knew from the start I wouldn't want to stay. The medical care you get is horific so them saying you can't wear certain armor is no surprise. I took my disability, education benifts and got the heck out.You were in the Air Farce and your complaining about conditions. :stare

[Breecher_7]

You were in the Air Farce and your complaining about conditions. :stare

We who served have the right to ***** regardless of what we did. So he was in the chair force.....he still has bitching rights.....

[flyin_blue_egg]

I was watching future weapons tonight on Discovery and saw the Dragon Skin body armor and its testing. I then read online that the US govt told soldiers that if they continue to wear the privately purchased body armor that they would be denied death benefits?!?!? All soldiers were forced to remove privately purchased body armor... Is this true? If so....HOLY SHIT! The funny thing is that reports came from the field that a few generals were wearing this particular body armor but their soldiers werent allowed to?!?!

I also saw a report done by the DoD, that 80% of the Marines that we killed recently would have survived had their body armor been better.:wow Considering the Dragon skin is only $6000, I say its a steal to protect yourself and if you arent asking the govt to pay for it, how can they deny your death claim benefits?:wooo :fire

the way I see it....IDK how much $$ it costs...if it means I got a better chance of making it home....I'd be first in line to buy it

[GTSLOW]

You were in the Air Farce and your complaining about conditions. :stare

I can't complain I was stuck in Korea for my first 2 years, and now shitty Fort Irwin.

[USMARINE1108]

I can't complain I was stuck in Korea for my first 2 years, and now shitty Fort Irwin.


I spent 2 nights in the BOQ at an AF base in Arkansas a few years ago. Nice place.