Why are there no fast LS1 Camaros around here?

[DoubleAron]

1st off let's get this straight, this is by no means a bashing thread, just a serious question. I talked about this with other locals and also people from other boards from around the country and I was just wondering why this area seems so far behind with the LS1 cars.
It seems that the Camaros out number the mustangs at least 3 to 1 but yet none of them are really fast. The 2 fastest ones seemed like underachivers to me, IMO. Could anyone tell me why they aren't any faster? Here are some things I thought of;
Harder to work on, more costly to build, don't like the drag only thing as much as the mustangs, not willing to spend the extra $$? Some are not well thought out combos?
The LS1 is an awesome motor and there are cars around the country doing great with them, I would like a early 2000's Z06 but only if I got rid of my junk 1st and it had a back seat, I have also kicked around the idea of a Camaro before so don't think this is some Chevy vs Ford thing.

[GRNDNL]

:stare :rolf :rolf

This should be fun...........

My guess is that no LS1 owner has put a Dana 60 in there car yet..... :headbang

[BAD LS1]

Well in a nutshell it is a cost thing and a learning curve. My car is 5 years in the making right now and im still learning stuff about it new all the time. Parts for these cars and engines are sometimes twice as much as stuff for a fox body mustang.

So ill try to put some stuff into prespective that does put a big damper on anyone really upping the anty and going real fast right away. The suspension needs to be sorted to make them launch good, it needs a 2500$ rear end setup that kills the pocket book right off the bat. But its about a horse a piece to race a 6 speed car vs automatic cost wise, the auto car needs a built trans and a 600-800 converter. The 6 speed needs a 600$ clutch setup, and a 300$ hydraulic setup, and a 200$ shifter to make it work right. Now there are alot of mid 10's CAM ONLY 6 speed and auto cars out there... Well my self for example have not had ample oppertunity to try and reach these goals due to lack of suspension parts needed to hook and get 1.3 60fts like those guys do, and parts breaking in between that set me back having to save up to replace them. Not saying ill reach these goals, but damn it im gonna try this year! Finally got the suspension parts, got a decent way to have good tune up on the engine and i personally am gonna try to let it all hang out this year with the car.

There are now a few of us that have the potential of running a decent # this year as most of us finally paid the taxes of racing these cars.

I talked smack last year, karma came right around and bit me in the ass hard last year as i chunked the stock motor right before the big race between me an Ian. Had to start saving for a new short block, i was done for the summer. So this year new approach... keep mouth shut, and let the car talk instead.

It is inspiring to see the mustang guys running so good, so it deffinatley gives me the will to at least want to be competetive with them instead of stuck in the mid 11's forever.

Im sure some of the other LS1 guys will chime in on some of my key notes, but i hope we have a good showing this year, it would be about time.

[JohnnyT]

There looked to be some pretty strong LS1's at the show last night. :thumbsup

[jbiscuit]

There looked to be some pretty strong LS1's at the show last night. :thumbsup

I would agree....I don't care if its a blue oval or an LS1....if that mofo is fast, I'll watch it run! :rolf

[Crawlin]

:rolleyes:

Almost funny...

Mine's an underachiever, yes it is... I've had it to the track once and only with a combination that was seriously lacking some key components.

For informational purposes, my car went 10.70 @ 127mph on a 1.54 or 1.56 60ft(no slip in front of me) at a 3400lb raceweight. It is missing some pieces for weight reduction, but by no means is it a featherweight like alot of the 2900lb cam only cars running similar times or faster. My times were on a 75 shot.

I only had it to the track once last year.

My passes were off the footbrake stalling it up to 2800 so when i went, rpm's were high enough since I didn't have a window switch. My converter HATES being stalled up that high, but that's what I had to do. I have a transbrake in the car ready to go. Just didn't use it last year. Then let's look at the wonderful bottle pressure at 750psi. Didn't have a heater on it because it was last minute that I was gonn spray the car that night. Then let's look into the intake path... I still had the stock LS1 intake and TB. Not even an upgraded LS6 or ported TB. The dyno on my car, it gained 30rwhp when i changed intakes before, but I had sold that aftermarket one off. And that was still with a stock TB that was still smaller then the intake inlet. Oh yeah, and no tuning done on the car after the TH350 swap and because I didn't need a speedo, but never adusted the tuning to turn off the VSS error code, it basically was running in "limp home mode". So what, basically 10-15* of timing being pulled from these computers in that mode?

Those are MY excuses and MY problems that I'm trying to address instead of just switching combo's like I had planned on. They aren't so much excuses as they are my fault, I just wanted to race and just dealt with the bad stuff.

[UnderPSI]

Is he saying I am slow :confused

[Crawlin]

So now let's look into why there aren't that many drag racers. First reason, just look at the age group buying these cars. Not alot of the people buying these cars can afford a hell of alot of mods to get into the 10's, NOR do they want to ruin the resale value of the car by stripping 500lbs of crap out that is impossible to put back in right.

And the drag racing thing around here, isn't all that big if you think about it. It's really just our core group of friends that you look to. And alot of guys around here don't want to deal with the hassles of a "strip" car.

First reason, like Tom said, they don't want to invest right off the bat a $2500 rear end, in addition to anything else trans wise. That clutch crap he talked about evens up with the $800 converters and then the $2000 tranny build up in the automatic to keep overdrive. And even at that point, the 4L60E isn't all that reliable.

And yes, in regards to ease of working on, we all know they suck. You've seen how far under the cowl the engine's are. Valve spring swaps are impossible without the right tool, and especially those back cylinders under the cowl. So most don't even want to deal with that hassle.

So let's compare our cars to the Foxbody's that have had almost 10 years ahead of us and factory backing of a racing series that has helped progress the state of aftermarket availability for those vehicles.

5.0 s-trim Vortech kit is what, $2500? Hell used they seem to be about $1500

OUR LS1 kit is the smaller g-trim and is about $6000.

That's a whole hell of a lot different.

Then if you want to look towards a turbocharger, that is just an even greater INSANE difference. All because space is tight, and you either have to give up ammentities, or pay more for that extra custom fabrication.

[Crawlin]

Then let's actually look at the LS1's around here...

Me - 10.70
Jeff - 10.90
Brad - 11.20
Tim - 11.20
Tom - 11.40

Jeff had some issues on that one pass and hasn't been back yet, Brad's running low boost at that time and should be quite interesting what his car can do considering the 3700lb weight I'm sure it is now, Tim's been out of the game doing something "secret" but we haven't heard from him in awhile, and Tom responded above with what combination he'll have and it should run pretty well.

So if you are trying to compare it to Chicago where they out number the mustangs at that same 3 - 1(but have 10x the population) Same thing with Houston and then the east coast.

Besides the fact that if you look at the age group of the guys that I listed above, we definitely aren't all rich pulling home equity loans to pay for our hobby :)

That's my full response :)

I'm slow, and it's ok :)

[Josepy]

some people like me have no problem running a stock ls1 for a year or so until they get the itch like me to do something about it. My car is a daily driver. I run from Allenton to Fond Du Lac everyday. My car gets 30mpg on the highway. Can't wait to get the cam and headers on.

[Crawlin]

You could point out the fact that how come there isn't a TON of '03-'04 Cobra's around. Really only one and we don't even know what it's gonna run. There's a TON of them in Chitown/Houston area, but not around here.

Know what I mean now? Things take a bit of time to progress through the mod stages.

[A B4C Z]

I would say the cost is up there with why there arent alot. First off i payed an arm and a leg for my car. But its what I wanted. The next thing is im in "the game" for being able to take it to california (not like im really going to) but if i wanted to I could take it there and not have to worry about it breaking over heating horible ride blah blah. I like it to stay as stock as factory as possible. The parts for these cars are still high in cost. The 5.0s have been around for a while. Just about everyone is making parts for them now. SLP GM's SS/Firehawk makers are now puting out mustang parts and i belive dodge parts also.

Also (except a select few) all the mustangs are late 80s early 90s cars. There cheap 2-5 grand for the car, so to spend another 5-10 on a motor suspension set up isnt so bad.

Where as you cant find an abondance of lt1/ls1 cars around here for that price range.

Well see what i can do this year. Im shooting for some 2.0 60fts this year!!!!! :D Got to knock that 2.3 down a little and hope for a mid 12 now!

Kyle

[DoubleAron]

CrawlinZ what's with the eye roll and the "Almost funny"?

This is just something that was on my mind and thought I would post it, I wanted to know for my own knowledge. When I was looking into these cars
awhile back one thing that kind of stuck out to me after doing some research is they seem like crazy fast bolt-on cars but after that they seem to hit a brick wall. Does that seem true to anyone else?
I guess I forgot that these cars are as new as they are also.
As somewhat stated above the Fox body is a great car for the fact you can get them for cheap, cut them up and then buy another if needed. Even if it is getting harder to find nice ones now.
Believe me if I had the cash this would not be the car that I would own but this is what I know, I owned this car before, etc.

[JC70SS]

Home equity loans to build a motor?? No?!?! :rolf

[BAD LS1]

Well as far as bolt on cars go... yes and no as to hitting a wall. Your kinda at the limit of the stock heads in that 430 ish RWHP that seems to be getting these mid 10s at 130 with just a cam. Then some cars only make 430-450 with heads and dont run any better. There are at least 6 full weight 6speed and auto cam only + bolt on cars in the mids 10s on nuts alone. Then there are the guys im trying to model mine after... run low 11's on motor, spray it with a 150 and bang out some 9.80's. I have alot more spray on tap than that, but im gonna start that small and seewhat happens.

First order of buisness will be to hone it to 11 teens on motor, then start small with the bottle.

However reality is a *****. I now go by a acronym that i found that really applies to the quest of squeezing water from a rock.

FDCA

Formulate a plan
Deal with Reality
Can't Do it alone
Adversity is part of this process

We will see if this pays off for me personally this year. As im always willing to help others with my aquired knowledge from my car, through tuning up peoples cars.

[Crawlin]

Was more towards Keith because with the amount of ribbing he gives off on that same topic, I knew how his post would be... i should have been more specific

My old '98 Z went 11.7x N/A with headers, a 4400stall, a lid, exhaust, and at 3200lbs. That was with the stock tranny and stock 3.23 gearing.

Bolt on wise these cars can fly. But it's just like any other car out there, it's combination. There is ONE 10 sec N/A bolt on car, a couple 10 sec N/A cam only cars, a good number of 10 sec N/A head/cam cars, and countless built bottom end 10 sec N/A cars.

But like I said, every combination is different. It's not so much a WALL, but more of a willingness to try. You have some guys that realize that there can be more in a combination, then there are others that go out with the same settings everyday looking for that next BEST E.T. by sheer luck hoping on weather or track conditions to maybe help them.

And with everything, look at the WHOLE rather than the e.t. Those bolt on guys are running around at a 2900 RACE weight. Some are a little bit less, some are a bit more. As crazy as I am for weight reduction, I'm not THAT crazy.

You could also point out that there really aren't that many fox bodies running around that are as fast as the rest of the country too. It's all just population around Milwaukee compared to those other cities.

bobby - 9.9x
sam & tina - 10.20 and the 'vert was 10.90?
andy - 10.50
josh - 10.50
mark - 10.90 ? don't remember

other than that, not much around. so you have us by a bit, but it's not to the point where the years of availability and information the 5.0's have would expect.

[SpdRcrZ]

the real reason is cause I beat them with my cavi...... and they went and traided them in for Evo's.......:rolf

just messin....... kinda ;)

I know if Chad would have kept his firebird, it would be wicked fast by now....... Last time I saw Brad's car it was crazy..... I think on the verge of breaking the sound barrier :stare

[Yooformula]

Besides the cost..I think you have to factor in the weather. We only have a short period of time to play with these things and 1 mistake could cost you the entire year. When I lived in Florida there were monster LS1s everywhere but the weather is mint all year and tracks catered to that. GLD is great and do a fantastic job of catering to races but its only for a few short months. Its either too cold to work on it yourself or too broke to cut your teeth on it and learn on this platform. I let go of the drag racing bug long ago when i moved here once I realized how long the off season was and how little time you have to ENJOY the car.

[Lash]

lol....I love the title of this thread.



I'm sure the LS1's around here will be alot quicker this year.

[Grim_Reeper7.0]

Lets start with they are expensive to work on. Any idiot with half a brain would pick up a 03-04 cobra and spend a fraction of the money to make there car fast as a LS1 owner would. I happen to fall into one of the idiot catergories though.......i have no idea how much money i have tied up into my engine.......i know its alot....almost what I paid for the car.....and thats just engine. Oh.......and the dana 60 comment........I run a Currie 9" with a 4 link......so its not a 60...but its damn strong.

[SLOWC5]

My car ran like **** at the track. I have video of the car dying in the burnout box and going into limp mode... blaa blaa blaa. excuses, excuses, excuses.

I have a 3400lb full interior, completely stock car, except for the upgrades. I dont think I ever imagined competing at a level of where the local mustang guys are at.

C5 also have the " vette" tax

$1500 headers
$1700 rear diff
$1200 catback
$1000 converter

this **** is expensive

JEFF

[BOSS LX]

bobby - 9.9x
sam & tina - 10.20 and the 'vert was 10.90?
andy - 10.50
josh - 10.50
mark - 10.90 ? don't remember



Some how i think this will change a little this year! :thumbsup

Give the LS1's time. They get faster every year!

[Crawlin]

I'm sure it will Andy. I'm looking forward to seeing that whole list be 9's. Even if Josh doesn't hit it, I think I like his car the best because of the 'vert and the 5speed.

[T-Bag]

Lets start with they are expensive to work on. Any idiot with half a brain would pick up a 03-04 cobra and spend a fraction of the money to make there car fast as a LS1 owner would. I happen to fall into one of the idiot catergories though.......i have no idea how much money i have tied up into my engine.......i know its alot....almost what I paid for the car.....and thats just engine. Oh.......and the dana 60 comment........I run a Currie 9" with a 4 link......so its not a 60...but its damn strong.

Considering 03-04' cobra's are almost always twice as much as most LS1's, I do not understand your whole money logic here.

I like cars that go fast, I don't care if it's an F-body, Mustang, Civic, whatever. This should be a fun year!

Well to watch at least

[FourEyedFord]

bobby - 9.9x
sam & tina - 10.20 and the 'vert was 10.90?
andy - 10.50
josh - 10.50
mark - 10.90 ? don't remember


Sam went 10.000s, Mark went 10.1s, and Andy went high 10s missing a piston last year :headbang.

The LS1 cars are fast for having all kinds of computer bullsh!t on them! :goof
(Sorry, what did you expect from me)

[Crawlin]

I just remember andy going mid 10's at the KOTH where my studs broke.

Oh well, summer is coming and I just hope to be able to drive my car

[Poncho]

money, weather, prices to mod. multiple cars??

those are main factors.

I'm hoping for mid 11's till i have to tear the car apart, and start replacing stuff.

big cam, headers and a 150shot should get me there. but how long will the clutch last if I'm running slicks? how about my IRS? stuff I'd love to do, but I don't wanna drop over 1k on a LSD and then more for 3.91's and upgraded halfshafts, then get drag bags, etc.

out of curiousity, how much does $1500 buy a fox body parts wise? like jeffs car suffering the "vette" tax, mine suffers the "gto" tax. i just bought $1500 headers, thats gotta go damn far on modding a fox body.

also a big factor that gets overlooked.

do you wanna take a 98+ LSx powered car, that still should cost you around 10k minimum and gut it to be a drag only car? I don't know how people can do it. I cringe thinking tom paid likely upper 20's for his SS new, enjoyed it stock for a little while, then went racing with it. now it doesn't get to leave the garage much. IMO, it now has just as much value as the Yenko that it sits next to all winter.

or Jeff, what 30k yet for a '99 vette, then all the mods & other stuff to it.

learning from them, it would be in my best interests to get another car, and park the goat mon-fri to not tear it up in daily driving.

you wanna play, you gotta pay. it's alot more expensive for LSx boys and gals to play, even moreso for those of us blessed with under 15-20k a year production #'s.

and I know nearly everyone that I know playing with a LSx car, also happens to be under 30. good job or not, theres other goals going on in life in them years.

[turbogarrett]

Very potent motors- like said before aftermarket parts are $$$ ,but finally seem to be moving closer to reality as more competition enters the market. It's only a matter of time and/or money........

[theavenger333]

garrett you don't count, you took the best part of the camaro, and replaced the worst part

[turbogarrett]

^most fbodies w/ similiar mods should be able to out e.t. me. The car is a chore to get off the line w/ 550+ in/lb springs out back, irs and radials. :D

[theavenger333]

well yeah, a Wanker equipped FD is meant to launch and hold big HP, not necessarily the torque. set the thing up right and you're ready to go

[Slow Joe]

Come on now guys, I have to pay the V6 tax, which includes replacing everything EXCEPT for the chasis :durr :rolf

Edit: Oh yeah, and I bought the car new, and already have over $1500 in suspension alone...

[BAD LS1]

How is the car running yet Garret?

[turbogarrett]

How is the car running yet Garret?

Idle still needs some work, but goes like a mofo at wot :thumbsup

[BAD LS1]

Idle still needs some work, but goes like a mofo at wot :thumbsup

Well one part is fixed then, as i was saying its not fun to try to dial it in the city, we will have to try to get it out by me where there is more room to get more accurate data to tune from.

[turbogarrett]

Well one part is fixed then, as i was saying its not fun to try to dial it in the city, we will have to try to get it out by me where there is more room to get more accurate data to tune from.

What, no more tuning in da hood? :banana1:

[Poncho]

"good points, but you still suck"

thanks from whoever left that in my rep for that.

[SpdRcrZ]

Got to love the Vette Tax...... GTO Tax....... and then I have the GM 4 cylinder tax....... we pay double for half the parts..... :( if they even make the parts......

[Poncho]

comparitively you should still have some sort of aftermarket, nothing like what a civic's got...

civics have motor swaps. so do you.

I've now seen more than 1 L67 in a Cavalier.

and we all know if you can stuff a L67 into a J-Body and you can stuff a LSx into a W-Body, then you should be able to stuff in a LSx.

how fast are your cavvy's?? I can honestly saw I've never seen a fast cavvy in my own eyes, but I know they gotta be out there. I hear they just love the spray...

[Lash]

how fast are your cavvy's?? I can honestly saw I've never seen a fast cavvy in my own eyes, but I know they gotta be out there. I hear they just love the spray...


They like boost better :)...well the eco's do anyway :D


His full interior street tired...as in all season tires... 2.4 LD9 (not eco) cavy ran 12.8 with full interior and ZERO internal mods besides 2.3 quad 4 cams.
I haven't seen his "other" cavy run again yet. They were having some problems with it last year...the potential is deffinetely there though. I heard they ran it this year (Brain needs to PM me with the time it ran :D).

Gotta love turbo's.

There may also be a few others around here that'll for sure give you a run for the money. ;)

[Poncho]

that is damn cool.
thats a sleeper, never would expect nothin' outta a cavvy.

12.8 on street tires? damn I wanna see that thing on slicks.

[Lash]

Theres a video somewhere.
Sure as hell dosent sound like a cavalier with an open dump on that hairdryer.

[SpdRcrZ]

:) my 12.8 run is against a bike (rocket)....... I think I have it on my PC..... will have to look for it..... run was on 15psi.

The 96 has run a best of 13.2 @ 109...... and that was shutting down at the 1000' mark (ran out of gear).... and on 11psi..... so far this year (one run) we ran a 14.0 @ 110...... higher rev limit, but sticky track made it almost stall on the line.

[Poncho]

damn your little cavaliers would run right with my big cavalier.

[TransAm12sec]

Any idiot with half a brain would pick up a 03-04 cobra and spend a fraction of the money to make there car fast as a LS1 owner would.

My first thought to this is 03/04s cost 20-30 grand, while LS1s cost 10-20 grand. Once you have the car it's cheaper, but the starting price is 10 grand more for the Cobra.

In the Twin Cities, there are 7 LS1s that I can think of off the top of my head that are in the 11s or deeper. Three head/cam/N20, three cam/N20s, and one head/cam. I'm sure there are more.

Nitrous is popular up here. I've seen more of the fast street car scene in Minnesota without a car then I have seen in Milwaukee with a car. I need to learn the spots in Milwaukee.

[Jake B. (Killer Quad)]

:) my 12.8 run is against a bike (rocket)....... I think I have it on my PC..... will have to look for it..... run was on 15psi.

The 96 has run a best of 13.2 @ 109...... and that was shutting down at the 1000' mark (ran out of gear).... and on 11psi..... so far this year (one run) we ran a 14.0 @ 110...... higher rev limit, but sticky track made it almost stall on the line.


You going to get that 96 runing right this year! Just ran the Grand Am 13.50 motor only the nitrous is off for this year.

Back on topic, whats the idea of fast ls1?!? I know mine is a basicaly stock car and at the track I really dont go around looking to race the LS1 cars. I see pleanty of 11's there and some pretty wicked drag cars too f-bods that is.

[SpdRcrZ]

I'm going to try...... :headbang

You running it at Import Wars? (thats this Sat, isnt it? I havnt recieved my 06 schedule yet)

[Jake B. (Killer Quad)]

sunday sunday sunday

[SpdRcrZ]

ahh..... well, maybe I'll be able to make it down then........ weather and woman permitable......