Conceal and carry...

[animal]

The conceal and carry bill passed the house last night and supposedly they also garnered enough votes to override doyle's veto. I have no idea on the specifics of the whole thing, but if I am able to I am going to take the safety course and get the permit just so I can do it if need be. Anyone else plan on packin heat if this passes? :guns1

[BlownMe]

i just may look into it. ill probably get a permit and see where it goes from there.

[twicks69]

NO WAY IN HELL. this bill is the biggest piece of crap this year. "with exceptions in the bill made for people carrying concealed weapons under the influence in a school zone"

There is NO reason to carry a firearm. It is asking for increased severe/fatal injury cases, and more people out there with no experience using a gun--owning a gun.

I will be on the petitioning side of this one.

[PonyKiller87]

There is NO reason to carry a firearm. It is asking for increased severe/fatal injury cases, and more people out there with no experience using a gun--owning a gun.



You realize that once the law passes it doesn't mean people can just start carrying, you still have to go take a class and pass a backround check.... its not as easy as you think. In most cases the people that are causing problems with guns are carrying them illegaly, which wont change if this law is passed. What will change is maybe now a law abiding citizen will have the opertunity to defend himself.


I personaly plan on taking the class and getting a permit. Does that mean I will ever actualy carry a gun around, most likely not. But if the situation ever came up where I felt the need, then I could do it and feel safe without breaking the law.

[animal]

Does that mean I will ever actualy carry a gun around, most likely not. But if the situation ever came up where I felt the need, then I could do it and feel safe without breaking the law.

God damn right. I'll probably look around for a more compact pistol than my dirty harry hand cannon revolver, but will I actually carry it even once a year? Who knows, but to posess the freedom to do so is worth all the courses and background checks in the world to me.

[DirtyMax]

It's a proven fact that the crime rate in states with legalized CCW is lower.

[LIL EVO]

NO WAY IN HELL. this bill is the biggest piece of crap this year. "with exceptions in the bill made for people carrying concealed weapons under the influence in a school zone"

There is NO reason to carry a firearm. It is asking for increased severe/fatal injury cases, and more people out there with no experience using a gun--owning a gun.

I will be on the petitioning side of this one.


Tell theives and criminals that there is NO reason to carry a firearm. More people with no experience using a gun won't be carrying because they wouldn't want to!

A few opponents of the Personal Protection Act claim that passing this measure will result in increased shootings, gun violence and crime overall — basically a return to the “Wild West.” However, these same claims have been made before passage of similar bills in other states, and, to date, zero of the 45 states with conceal-and-carry laws have repealed them. In fact, 1999 crime statistics from the FBI show that overall violent crime, homicide, robbery and aggravated assault are lower in states with instituted conceal-and-carry laws than in those that do not have such laws.

[animal]

Does anyone know any specifics? Like can you carry just about anywhere? (shopping malls, etc) Or is it pretty restricted (ie only out in public but not inside businesses, etc) ?

Obviously we might not know specifics for our state yet, but how does it work elsewhere?

[PonyKiller87]

When I was in Texas a few years ago I talked to some people about this. When your in Texas is very well know that alot of people are carrying, all the time(if I remember right government buildings, schools, hospitals.. and stuff like that were about the only place they couldnt carry) Everyone is really nice to everyone else. Probably because nobody wants to piss off the wrong person and get shot.

Like I said before the people comitting crimes are usually carrying illegaly. The people that do carry with a permit help scare and detur the criminals from robbing random people. That goes right along with the stats, allowing this will only make things safer for everyone. Hands down no questions asked, nomater what retarded liberal spin you try and put on it thats how it really is.

[animal]

retarded liberal spin

"Is there another kind?"

http://www.oscarworld.net/fewgood1.jpg


:goof

[GRNDNL]

NO WAY IN HELL. this bill is the biggest piece of crap this year. "with exceptions in the bill made for people carrying concealed weapons under the influence in a school zone"

There is NO reason to carry a firearm. It is asking for increased severe/fatal injury cases, and more people out there with no experience using a gun--owning a gun.

I will be on the petitioning side of this one.


Now thats funny.... :rolf :rolf

I can't believe people really fall for that "Guns Kill People" garbage...... :rolleyes:

[95 TA - The Beast]

My biggest concern with a bill like this passing is that assholes that are too much of a ***** to defend themselves any other way are going to carry, and feel 'justified' in pulling a gun anytime they feel 'threatened'... Which includes situations that they themselves may end up instigating...

A buddy of mine mentioned a situation where he was pulling out of the Budget theatres up on hwy 100, he is pulling out and some jackass ricer punk is pulling into the far right lane and almost clips him... The ricer punk then stops dead almost guranteeing an accident, which, luckily, my buddy avoided, and then proceeds to get out of the ricemobile with 4 of his buddies and starts threatening my friend who is sitting in his car.

Now, my friend has mentioned in that situation he would have 'felt better' being able to carry a gun. Point blank fact of the matter is, all he had to do is call the police, say he is being threatened and there would have been a cop there pronto. In this case I couldn't say one way or another but I could see someone being 'afraid' and pulling a gun and start shooting...

Now, here is the part which I am *AFRAID* of... What if he was able to carry a gun, pulls it out and takes a defensive posture. Now if those assholes that started this **** were able to carry as well, THEY would be in thier rights to pull any weapons they are allowed to carry and *IF* shots got fired, my concern isn't for either one of those parties, as I feel if the one didn't pull a gun the other wouldn't be justified in doing it either, is that one of those asses are going to shoot some innocent person driving by the situation... And fact of the matter is I don't want any member of my family, or myself, to be shot because some spineless **** feels 'safer' carrying a weapon...

I mean realistically, the largest majorities of crimes happen to people because they are somewhere they shouldn't be. If you have a job that requires you to use deadly force to protect yourself or whatever you are carrying (bonded courior, businessman, security, etc...) you can ALREADY get a permit to open-carry, so it isn't a matter of 'defending for a given suituation', it is a matter of a LOT of people feeling 'bigger' than they would be without the weapon. THAT is my problem with this...

Now, it was said that in Texas everyone carries, which is very true. But Teans are also some of the biggest bunch of assholes whose egos are 10x the size of thier state. And yes, they tend to have many more instances of unjustified shootings or so-called 'accidental' shootings than a lot of other states...

I mean hell, I have known a bunch of people around here that want to CCW, and I can truely say only 1 or 2 of the dozen or so actually have the proper mentality to do it safely where I wouldn't be concerned being around them if they were carrying... The rest, I would rather stay far away from if I know they have a weapon on them because I can't gurantee they would use proper judgement in handling a tense situation and I wouldn't care to be hurt because of thier poor judgement...

And again, we are talking all law-abiding citizens that aren't criminals and that usually have guns in thier homes...

Again, all IMHO...

[LIL EVO]

**
Now, here is the part which I am *AFRAID* of... What if he was able to carry a gun, pulls it out and takes a defensive posture. Now if those assholes that started this **** were able to carry as well, THEY would be in thier rights to pull any weapons they are allowed to carry and *IF* shots got fired, my concern isn't for either one of those parties, as I feel if the one didn't pull a gun the other wouldn't be justified in doing it either, is that one of those asses are going to shoot some innocent person driving by the situation...
**

Then it looks like your buddy shouldn't be carrying as there's no reason to pull a gun on some punk kids standing around his car. He should continue to call the police and in the .005% that the kids would pull out a gun, then he could do the same and shoot.

[DirtyMax]

All the dirtbag felons who want to carry guns already do illegally. It's time law abiding citizens had a chance to even the playing field.

Thinking as a criminal, I sure the hell would think twice about carjacking someone for their "whip" if I thought there might be something waiting for me on the other side of that door.

[Al]

There is NO reason to carry a firearm. It is asking for increased severe/fatal injury cases, and more people out there with no experience using a gun--owning a gun.

I used to think this way till I did a little research. A correlation of crime rates per capita and states with and without concealed weapons clearly demonstrates that crime rates are lower in states which allow for concealed weapons. Even when I asked police officers about the subject, 100% of them were in favor of concealed weapons.


Well, I don't work for Pizza Hut anymore so I don't have any real need to carry, but I might take the classes if they take that route.

[LIL EVO]

True you may never have a "need" to carry, but then again you don't "need" car insurance.

[PonyKiller87]

Dennis,

I agree with alot of what you said. There are people out there that would qualify leagaly to carry, that dont have the mental capacity to do so in a safe way.

From what I have heard about the classes that you take to get the permit, they explain to you that if you accidentaly shoot an inocent bystandard, or you shoot someone you feel is a threat, the court will ultimatly decided if you were right, wrong or at fault. If your willing to carry it and or use it, you have to be willing to take the chance of getting screwed in court. That alone should keep things under control, but then again people are dumb.

[Al]

I can't believe people really fall for that "Guns Kill People" garbage...... :rolleyes:

Rosie does...

http://www.nycdiet.com/nycdiet/images/rosie.jpg

...she also believes that food does not cause obesity. :banana

[LIL EVO]

I wonder if this will have any effect on the right to use deadly force to protect your home/property. As of right now, generally if you shoot/kill someone that entered your home the law is against you.

[junk mx6 no rly]

thats so much ****.



how many ppl have actually seen someone on hwy with a gun i dont know how many kids ive seen talk **** and get out of there car and neither of them pull a gun out.In fact there was this 4door gtp that keep messing around with my friend(at the time) swerving at him brake checking him.So my friend got out of the car and they all 4 of them put there windows and my friend had a bottle rocket tried to light it but could but he trew it in the car threw the sunroof and they just took of they were all jumping in the car funniest **** i ever seen.LOL anyways yeah i used to live in texas for like 4 years and the only person in my family that had a gun was my uncle but hes a cop so yeah.Other wise the only ppl that did were the onyl ppl that do are ppl that live on a farm or ranch.

[Crawlin]

i LOVE this topic. it brings out the funniest comments in people. everyone alway brings out the wild west comment, but like has been state, crime rate is LOWER...

do you think those punks would talk as much **** as they did if THEY realized te guy in the car MIGHT be carrying?

but continue on with the topic, it gets more enjoyable than the street racing **** talking.

[Crawlin]

and i do believe that you are not part of the proposed bill has a TON of restrictions as to where you can carry them. like not in schools, goverment buildings(i.e. courthouses as well), or even BARS(for that obvious reason). when it came around a couple years ago, i had looked into it. but for 95% of the people atleast ON HERE... we never put ourselves into a position to really NEED them while alking the streets.

[animal]

We were talking about this at lunch. I agree that not everyone should carry, and 90% of the people that don't carry now, won't carry (and likely won't even get the permit) if this law is passed. It's easy to come up with all these scenarios, but in reality they just don't happen any more than when someone's unlawfully carrying. If it really were a huge problem, you'd be hearing about it all over the news every day from the liberal media... you can bet your ass they'd make sure everyone knows they don't like us normal good people carrying guns. I'll even argue, you're still way, way, way more likely to die or get seriously hurt simply while driving to the movies, than gunshots fired in the movie theatre parking lot by two licensed people that might not use their best judgement over a driving problem.

Comfortable? I won't feel any less comfortable than I do now. The percentage of people that get these permits that will ever even wind up in a situation that needs them is likely less than 5%. I'd bet if you walked around the mall tonight, you'd pass at LEAST 10 people that have carried unlawfully in the last week or were even carrying while you saw them. Do you feel more uncomfortable about them, or people that have passed a safety course and background check and are essentially weeded out, trained, and legally licensed to carry a firearm under their coat?

Fact is, it's not going to change much of anything other than making criminals think twice or at least choose a less likely target. Is the bank robber going to feel as comfortable robbing a bank when any joe blow behind him could suddenly have a gun to his head? I wouldn't think so.

I will get this permit as soon as I can, but the chances I'll even carry once with it are somewhat low. Just another freedom I will have, and be able to take advantage of if I so choose. Honestly, for a majority of people, I think it might be more of a nuisance to carry than anything. You'd be restricted as to the types of establishments you could visit, and who wants to leave their piece in the car?

[LIL EVO]

If your car breaks down on 5th and north or you need to pick up a buddy/help change a tire in a shady neighborhood it'll be a nice option. It's all about choices and options.

[GRNDNL]

and i do believe that you are not part of the proposed bill has a TON of restrictions as to where you can carry them. like not in schools, goverment buildings(i.e. courthouses as well), or even BARS(for that obvious reason). when it came around a couple years ago, i had looked into it. but for 95% of the people atleast ON HERE... we never put ourselves into a position to really NEED them while alking the streets.

I would like the option to carry if I wanted to, I don't own a gun now but you never know what will happen down the road. I like the idea of getting the permit just to have it.....

[BAD LS1]

If the testing for the permit could only weed out the "not so smart people" who would think this new gun they carry on them is an extension of their **** and pull it on random punks. You really have to have good decision making skills to know when its time to pull the heat out and when to take other PROPER action as in letting the cops deal with it. I certainly would like to look into taking this certification test as well. *Animal* please pass any info on to me you may find about this in the future. Thanks!

[Slow Joe]

If the testing for the permit could only weed out the "not so smart people" who would think this new gun they carry on them is an extension of their **** and pull it on random punks. You really have to have good decision making skills to know when its time to pull the heat out and when to take other PROPER action as in letting the cops deal with it. I certainly would like to look into taking this certification test as well. *Animal* please pass any info on to me you may find about this in the future. Thanks!

IQ and a Street Smarts test? :durr LOL... IDK... I could go both ways on this law... It's cool for people that aren't psycho and such... But then there are the people that get dumb... And... That could get scarry...

[BAD LS1]

IQ and a Street Smarts test? :durr LOL... IDK... I could go both ways on this law... It's cool for people that aren't psycho and such... But then there are the people that get dumb... And... That could get scarry...

I agree! There are some nut jobs out there that MAY be able to pass the test... some real cowboys i know of here at work would be good examples of that, that would be just itching to use it the first time someone gets in their face.

It aint that easy to screen people in reality,but there should be some signifigant pre-requisits required that the average normal human being that really thinks through decisions before acting would be able to meet... Maybe some sort of physc test? lol

[animal]

IQ and a Street Smarts test? :durr LOL... IDK... I could go both ways on this law... It's cool for people that aren't psycho and such... But then there are the people that get dumb... And... That could get scarry...

But that's the argument, the people you're going to have a problem with are the people who are carrying them NOW. It's like anything else though. You have just as many people driving cars or carrying big ass knives... they can kill you with those too!


Tom, no problem.. I'll let you know.

[Slow Joe]

But that's the argument, the people you're going to have a problem with are the people who are carrying them NOW. It's like anything else though. You have just as many people driving cars or carrying big ass knives... they can kill you with those too!


Point taken... maybe they should just screen everyone and take things away if need be... :rolf :rolf like that'd ever happen... it would take too long and... yeah be a voilation of civil rights if I undersetand correctly...

[animal]

Point taken... maybe they should just screen everyone and take things away if need be

But that might *GASP* offend someone. :wow :wow

[Slow Joe]

I'm thinking that would be more of a voilation of civil rights than offensive...

[UnderPSI]

You can get information about concealed carry classes at Fletchers in waukesha. They always have info for different classes and seminars talking about carrying and self defense.

[animal]

I'm thinking that would be more of a voilation of civil rights than offensive...

Well I'm thinking that some people should no longer be entitled... at which point "offended" is all they're left with. :)

[animal]

You can get information about concealed carry classes at Fletchers in waukesha. They always have info for different classes and seminars talking about carrying and self defense.

I would suspect that if this goes through, the information will change somewhat.

[Slow Joe]

Well I'm thinking that some people should no longer be entitled... at which point "offended" is all they're left with. :)

Agreed! :thumbsup

[Rocket Power]

I would. I have a couple compact enough to carry now, but I am always up for an excuse to buy more guns :) 'Course being a bigger guy I could probably conceal most full size auto :goof
I had already contacted my State Senator (Reynolds) and my Assemblyman (Staskunas) before the votes. Reynolds was a cosponsor and Staskunas sounded like twicks69.
I don't get how I can have such opposites represent the same area.

[twicks69]

the reason that I am against this is shown in the statements made by Dennis. There are people carrying for the wrong reason -- that they need protection, but they don't believe in rationality. If you are on 5th and north and your car breaks down, that is your own fault -- because you chose the route that you took to go to the bars on north and oakland. There are always an alternative solution to problems like these, but people just do not always think about it.

So far, it seems like I am one of the only ones against the CCW bill that has spoken up.

I am more afraid for the law enforcement personnel, as I have family that are police officers in Wisconsin. All you need is one DUI'er with a CCW license, that gets pulled over and loses control, pulls his gun, and before the officer can see that he is a licensed person...someone gets shot. That is only one scenario.

[u_say_go]

I wonder if this will have any effect on the right to use deadly force to protect your home/property. As of right now, generally if you shoot/kill someone that entered your home the law is against you.

Not really. If someone enters your home while armed you have every right, by law, to do what is necessary to stop that intruder, including killing them. If you can prove that your life was in danger (if it wasnt, put a butcher knife in their dead hands) and thats why you killed them, the only thing you really have to worry about is a civil suit from the scum's family.

[PonyKiller87]

I am more afraid for the law enforcement personnel, as I have family that are police officers in Wisconsin. All you need is one DUI'er with a CCW license, that gets pulled over and loses control, pulls his gun, and before the officer can see that he is a licensed person...someone gets shot. That is only one scenario.

I'm not trying to be an ass and gang up on the one person that doesn't agree so far but thats a terrible argument. First off most people that would beable to get a permit would not be dumb enough to drink while carrying, especialy being that you can't carry in a bar. On top of that, if someone pulls a gun on a cop and gets themself shot, its their own fault.

The only bad thing about making up all these scenarios about what if this or what if that and someone got shot... Im sure we could come up with plenty of those that already happen now with out the carry law.




Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that if you are convicted of any crime while carrying a gun(reguardless of whether is leagal or not) it becomes a felony ???? Just another one of those things that makes you be more careful about your actions if/when you do decided to carry.

[animal]

thats a terrible argument

It indeed is. Especially considering there's a 0.02% BAC limit when you're carrying. Anything higher and you'd likely lose your legal carrying privledges. I'll argue all day that this is just as likely to happen with someone carrying illegally and it is in fact SAFER to have people licensed to carry. That way, when the cop runs the plate, just have the computer they're checking with anyway flag the plate saying the owner has CCW privledges. If the officer knows that going in, he can react and be more prepared for the completely more-than-rare incident described. If they were carrying illegally, he has no idea.





Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that if you are convicted of any crime while carrying a gun(reguardless of whether is leagal or not) it becomes a felony

Define Crime. Theoretically, J-walking is a crime is it not?

[UnderPSI]

By the way there has only been one time on record where a gun was pulled by a cc authorized person because of road rage. that was in California, and it was dismissed.

[UnderPSI]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that if you are convicted of any crime while carrying a gun(reguardless of whether is leagal or not) it becomes a felony ????

Actually you are wrong, it is not automatically a felony. (I would know) Don't ask or speculate please. Though if you are convicted of a felony you can't ever get a CC permit.

[animal]

Actually you are wrong, it is not automatically a felony. (I would know) Don't ask or speculate please. Though if you are convicted of a felony you can't ever get a CC permit.

Or posess a gun for that matter. I would think the CC would logically follow.

[PonyKiller87]

Actually you are wrong, it is not automatically a felony. (I would know) Don't ask or speculate please. Though if you are convicted of a felony you can't ever get a CC permit.


Are you sure? I though they passed something just a year or two ago that any mistermenor(sp) crimes become a felony if your are convicted and you had a gun. I remember reading something about this a while ago.

[92lxcoupe]

Does anyone have proof that CCW reduces violent crime? I have done some research and it points the opposite way. I am looking for information that supports your claim, and they only info I found relates to a study done by John Lott that has since been debunked.

[Syclone0044]

I'm all for carrying. :thumbsup

Anyone got links where I can read current info/news on the subject matter?

[animal]

I'm all for carrying. :thumbsup

Anyone got links where I can read current info/news on the subject matter?

Well right now it only passed the house and senate, but still has yet to make it to doyles desk for veto. It would then be expected the veto being overrode. As far as info, i don't think there is much to be had at this point, since it hasn't been finalized at all yet.

[DirtyMax]

Does anyone have proof that CCW reduces violent crime? I have done some research and it points the opposite way. I am looking for information that supports your claim, and they only info I found relates to a study done by John Lott that has since been debunked.

It's a big web. Here's some "newer than Lott" stuff for you:

Anti-self-defense extremists are often confronted with the question of why Ohio should resist concealed carry reform, since 45 other states have it in some form or another (including every state that borders Ohio). They are fond of responding that since Ohio's crime rate is already lower (than, say, Michigan), there is no need for these reforms. Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence founder Toby Hoover made this very argument on a live WBGU Bowling Green panel show a little over a week ago.

After reading the FBI's 2002 Uniform Crime Report, we know they're going to wish they'd used a different excuse.

For something like 40 years, the state of Michigan has had a crime rate higher than that of Ohio, per capita. This fact in and of itself doesn't deter from arguments that Ohio needs a concealed carry law - just because our rate is lower, doesn't mean we should seek to lower it even more. But these extremists' arguments are flawed for still another reason: the crime rate disparity is no longer a reality, thanks to passage of a concealed carry reform law in Michigan in 2000.

In 1999, Michigan's violent crime rate was 4,324.8 per 100,000 people, compared to Ohio's 3,996.4. Legislators and citizens were fed up. Amidst howls from gun control extremists, failed court challenges, and veto-threats, Michigan's state legislature passed a "shall-issue" concealed carry reform bill into law. The state began issuing licenses in the year 2000.

In the first year of widespread licensing, Michigan's rate dropped to 4,109.9, vs. Ohio's increase to 4,041.8 per 100,000 people.

In 2001, Michigan's crime rate dropped below Ohio's for the first time since modern crime trends have been recorded - down to 4,081.5 per 100,000 people, compared to yet another increase in Ohio - up to 4,177.6.

With the success of Michigan's concealed carry law apparent even to some former opponents, the state legislature passed a number of liberalizations to that state's CCW law - making it easier to obtain a license, and to carry a firearm for self-defense in more places. The changes went into effect last July.

The FBI has just released it's 2002 Uniform Crime Report, which reveals stunning facts about the success of Michigan's concealed carry law: amidst a slight upward trend in crime nationwide, Michigan's crime rate has dropped yet again: down to 3874.1, a 10.5% reduction in just three years. In that same time, Ohio's crime rate has increased 5%.

As if this isn't enough, the devil can most certainly be found in the details:

Ohio's violent crime rate is increasing at an even faster pace than the overall crime trend - up 4.24% in 2002. Michigan's violent crime rate, on the other hand, dropped another 2.63%. Ohio's murder rate was up a whopping 21.24% last year, while Michigan's experienced a less than one percent change. Ohio's rape rate (already one of the highest in the nation) rose another 13.31% last year, while Michigan's dropped 1.34%. Robberies in Ohio surged 6.5% in 2002, while they dropped a whopping 8.49% across the northern border. Car thefts, which include carjackings, increased 2.83% in Ohio last year, while falling 7.42% in Michigan.

We've been saying it for years now, and it's never been more provably true: Every day that Ohio's Republican leadership waits to fix Am. Sub HB12 and send it to Gov. Taft increases the defenseless victim list in our state, and forces otherwise law-abiding citizens into making a choice between facing felony arrest or being unable to defend themselves. This simply should not be.


Source:
http://www.ohioccw.org/article1501.html

[95 TA - The Beast]

And the simple fact of the matter is, no matter what side you are on, you can find data to support YOUR viewpoint better than someone elses viewpoint... Simple fact of the digital age and the 'payed for' statistics... Just look at smoking..

For example, no way in hell that anyone with common sense wouldn't say that the Tobbaco industry shouldn't be held accountable for the increase in health and medical benefits and smoking should be made illegal because of the complete healthrisk TO ALL, that it implies... that is unless you own stock in the Tobacco industry or are a heavily addicted smoker yourself, then you would say otherwise... :)

[SlowStee]

The main thing that worries me is...What if a simple fight happens? Like 2 guys start beatin the **** out of each other....and ones packing heat...


I dont see that as having a pretty ending to a simple brawl

[Al]

Does anyone have proof that CCW reduces violent crime? I have done some research and it points the opposite way. I am looking for information that supports your claim, and they only info I found relates to a study done by John Lott that has since been debunked.

YES!!!

Check out the NCPA!

http://www.ncpa.org/newdpd/index.php

You can find all sorts of info on there ranging from school performance relative to tax spending to gun control and the states with and without it.

[animal]

The main thing that worries me is...What if a simple fight happens? Like 2 guys start beatin the **** out of each other....and ones packing heat...

I dont see that as having a pretty ending to a simple brawl

And that couldn't happen right now? Simply having weapons available doesn't imply that every situation will escalate to the point of using them. Ccw is not a new concept and there are a lot of states with these permits. If these crazy scenarios were so common, you'd be hearing about them all day every day in the media. They would kill to get coverage on stuff like that with their anti-gun sentiment. But you don't hear that, because it only happens about as much as it would anyways.

Every fight, argument, or scuffle doesn't imply people will use the highest weapon at their disposal, or you'd hear about a knifing every time there's words said on a bus, or people getting their throats cut with a beer bottles during every bar brawl. It just doesn't happen, because the normal law-abiding people who would be passing these background tests, and taking these classes to legally get the permit are the same ones who aren't going to slit someone's throat with the nearest weapon any time a scuffle starts anyways. The people who would be doing that, as a whole, are the same ones that don't give a **** that carrying a gun is against the law. They'll do it anyways... JUST LIKE THEY DO NOW. That's not to say you can't have isolated incidents of normal people losing their cool, hauling off, and shooting someone. But someone desperate to cause that much harm to someone else WILL find a way to do it whether they have a gun on them or not.

I can only see 10-15% of the population taking advantage of this and actually passing to get the permit. 20% tops. I would say on average I've only met 1 of 3 people that like guns enough to do something like this, and of those, many wouldn't go through the hassle or ever have a reason to get one. I will get the permit to gain the freedom it allows, but will rarely choose to carry, as I see having it on me more as a liability at times than a comfort factor. I think a majority of people will probably do the same. Plus, it's a good excuse to buy another gun :)

[turbogarrett]

As a law abiding citizen (well mostly) who travels and works in some rough areas often times alone, I'm all for conceal and carry. I know quite a few people who have been held up, trucks broken into etc. A criminal will probably think twice if this law ever goes through...

[383Firebird]

I just did a speech on carrying concealed weapons. Facts are that in almost every state it has helped and there are facts to prove it. The FBI states that violent crime rates are the highest in states that prohibit carrying concealed weapons. A study of 2,000 felons in prisons said that 57% of them were more afraid to have an encounter with an armed victim rather than a police officer. A university of Chicago study said that although there had been a slight increase in larceny and auto theft after the bills have passed in states that there would be a decrease in 1,500 murders a year if passed in every state as well as a decrease in thousands of rapes, robberies, and aggrevated assaults. Gary Kleck who is a Florida State criminologist found that there is approximately 2 million defensive gun uses each year by the average citizen. He also found that victims who used guns for self-protection were less likely to be injured or lose their property. Kleck also said that there is no increase in injury that counterbalances the great effectiveness. Another study showed that less than 2% of fatal gun accidents occur during defensive gun use, which is around 20 deaths a year. Allowing this also is a help for everyone like stated above. No one knows who will be carrying so although I won't be carrying no one will know that so they may think that I am. This is a huge preventitive measure for everyone especially women. It was shown that women have benefited from this with their murder rate dropping 3-4 times the amount that mens have since the bills have passed.

Considering I am going into law enforcement I still am unsure how I actually feel about these bills personally. But I truly can not argue with the facts that I have seen. If someone is going to do something dumb with a gun they are most likely going to be carrying it illegal anyway.

Here are a few of the many sources available online (I used many journals which arent available online for other sources):
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgeff.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry
http://www.wpri.org/WIInterest/Vol11No2/Hein11.2.pdf

[T-Bag]

I'm all for it, hopefully they are able to overide douchebag's veto

[Cjburn]

I'd take the classes and get the permit, probably never will carry outside of my vehicle. It's a written RIGHT in the Bill of Rights on what we're supposed to be able to do to protect ourselves. Why does there have to be a law permitting the Bill of Rights to be legal? Interesting...

[HITMAN]

the reason that I am against this is shown in the statements made by Dennis. There are people carrying for the wrong reason -- that they need protection, but they don't believe in rationality. If you are on 5th and north and your car breaks down, that is your own fault -- because you chose the route that you took to go to the bars on north and oakland. There are always an alternative solution to problems like these, but people just do not always think about it.

Why does anybody need a specific reason? The legislation is called the "Personal Protection Act". It seems rather self-explanatory to me. It is a shall-issue bill, meaning anyone that wants a permit, that passes a concealed carry class and is not a convicted felon, must be issued a permit. No other reason is necessary. However, there are a lot of restrictions for a permit carrier, and any violation of said restrictions results in the permit being revoked, permanently. Carrying a gun legally also places much responsibility on the permit holder.


So far, it seems like I am one of the only ones against the CCW bill that has spoken up.
No, you just seem to be the only person that is willing to prove to the world that you can't think logically. If you could, you would see that your opinion is short sighted. Look at the statistics for other states that have shall-issue laws. They've hardly become the new Dodge City. Crime usually ends up going down because criminals are cowards that only prey on the weak. In shall-issue states, the criminal never knows who might be packing, so they generally resort to B&E, instead of armed robbery.



I am more afraid for the law enforcement personnel, as I have family that are police officers in Wisconsin. All you need is one DUI'er with a CCW license, that gets pulled over and loses control, pulls his gun, and before the officer can see that he is a licensed person...someone gets shot. That is only one scenario.

Where do you get this crap from, Handguns Inc.? What would stop said crazed drunk driver from just running the cop over? If I had to chose between facing a drunk with a gun or a drunk with a 3000lb+ WMD, I'll take the gun wielder, every time.

Also, what makes you think that the only people that carry guns are permit holders? Ever heard of a misdemeanor called carrying a concealed weapon? Lawbreakers are just that, someone that does not follow the law. I think you'll find that LEGAL permit holders will tend to be far more responsible than your average Joe-Blow. It's a LOT of responsibility.

Police Officers have a lot more to worry about that someone that carries LEGALLY. If LEOs are worried about a LEGALLY armed citizenry, then why do most of them support this legislation?

[twicks69]

Hitman =

Thank you for cutting me down because I have a different view of the situation than you do. Good for you. Merry Christmas to you too.

The CCW bill is one that you all are in favor of because why? You feel safer knowing that you have a gun? That you can make a difference? That you would be able to show that criminal out there who's boss? That you all feel that it is going to drastically reduce crime because it will make the criminal think twice about committing a crime? What about the restrictions in the bill?

So what happens when there is a crime committed against you in places like: a school zone, a college campus or sporting event, a bar, a restaraunt where greater than 50% of sales are from alcohol, a government facility, etc. Places where you are not allowed to carry a concealed weapon. Are you going to blame it on the government because they do not allow you to carry a weapon there, and that if the law was different and allowed you to carry a weapon in these places, you could have made a difference and could have prevented a crime.

This bill has so many restrictions in it that it is not an effective way to prevent crime. There are also the arguements out there about keeping the permit records private or public. I agree with keeping them private because it is none of your damn business if I own a CCW permit. The arguement for public record is that if kept private, it would be nearly impossible to tell whether the law is working as intended and make sure the permits wind up solely in the hands of upstanding citizens.

The idea of this bill is to give people protection that is psychological. The potential of not knowing whether someone is armed would prevent some people from committing a crime, but it will not deter everyone.


Just because I don't agree with you and your views, it doesn't mean that I don't understand the bill and its details.

[LIL EVO]

Ok, you guys know what? I work around Northridge, Southridge and Grand Avenue. Just 10 minutes ago I stopped at an awesome car wash on 107th ish and Brown Deer Road. It is a shady area with shady car washers. A few people started walking up towards my car and my stomach sure would've felt a little easier if I had a gun on me. Don't give me any BS about "picking a different car wash in a better neighborhood" because then you are sterotyping and actually ADMITTING that there are "bad" areas in the city. There's no reason I should NOT feel safe in any part of the city no matter what I'm doing.

Hear about the gang shooting at Southridge last night? Yeah that was real cool. Grand Avenue mall is also full of an interesting bunch of people.

[Berettaspeed]

im not against it, but i do agree that letting people carry a gun would make Mr. tough guys think twice about car jacking someone or even robbing stores. this way the "bad guys" are not the only ones carring the guns having the advantage. and its not as easy as buy a gun, and walk around with it. My girl friend wants a gun in the house, but i don't see a need for it. i rather use a baseball bat. a gun would be a last resort.(i mean a hand gun or something, i gots rifles)

and if felons can't get guns but want one, they can still get one weather or not the law goes through.

[T-Bag]

Stuff

I can understand your concerns, but please take a look at every other state with concealed carry, they are addressed already and have not been a problem. CCW isn't a new thing, its not like if WI suddenly gets it everyone is going to go batshit insane, its going to be like most other states and life will move on.

[twicks69]

I will continue to research the CCW law in other states to expand my knowledge of it.

Lilevo - No, I did not hear about the Southridge shooting. It wasn't in the newspaper. Yes, I admit that there are bad parts of town. Heck, I was working this whole week on 14th & National in my old neighborhood (13th& Mineral), and I know that it is far from safe. Northridge area has also gone down over the years, and I know that there are numerous cases of car jackings and thefts around the Brown Deer road area East of I-41/45 all the way down to Green Bay Road. I am not stereotyping people.

There is no such thing as a city that is totally safe, but I know that the passing of the CCW law would not put an end to violence. I hope that if it does pass, it would reduce the level of crime.

[T-Bag]

I will continue to research the CCW law in other states to expand my knowledge of it.

Lilevo - No, I did not hear about the Southridge shooting. It wasn't in the newspaper. Yes, I admit that there are bad parts of town. Heck, I was working this whole week on 14th & National in my old neighborhood (13th& Mineral), and I know that it is far from safe. Northridge area has also gone down over the years, and I know that there are numerous cases of car jackings and thefts around the Brown Deer road area East of I-41/45 all the way down to Green Bay Road. I am not stereotyping people.

There is no such thing as a city that is totally safe, but I know that the passing of the CCW law would not put an end to violence. I hope that if it does pass, it would reduce the level of crime.


I don't think anybody in their right mind believes it will end violence, there is no way to stop that, but it won't escalate it either.

[pOrk]

I'd pack some ass

I mean...

[HITMAN]

Hitman =

Thank you for cutting me down because I have a different view of the situation than you do. Good for you. Merry Christmas to you too.

You're welcome. :thumbsup
Happy Ramahanakwanzmas (My PC greeting to liberals, one and all.)


The CCW bill is one that you all are in favor of because why? You feel safer knowing that you have a gun? That you can make a difference? That you would be able to show that criminal out there who's boss? That you all feel that it is going to drastically reduce crime because it will make the criminal think twice about committing a crime? What about the restrictions in the bill?

Why, you ask? Because it is my right AND my responsibility to defend myself. I don't expect anyone else to do it for me. The police can't possibly be everywhere at once, so in the event I find myself inextricably caught up in a violent situation I wasn't looking for OR expecting, who else do I have to depend on? I'm not looking for an ego trip, only to even the odds with criminals. In case you haven't figured it out yet, not only do criminals tend to break all of societies other laws, but they seem to disregard those that apply to gun ownership and use, as well. I don't really care whether crime statistics go down or not, I just want the opportunity to LEGALLY carry a gun to defend my family, my friends and myself, should the unfortunate need arise.

As for the restrictions, I don't care for them, but I'm not the one writing the legislation, I can only follow the law as it ends up being written. If it were up to me, I would not try to water this bill down with the feel-good pandering to the left. There is already too much of that going on in government, today.


So what happens when there is a crime committed against you in places like: a school zone, a college campus or sporting event, a bar, a restaraunt where greater than 50% of sales are from alcohol, a government facility, etc. Places where you are not allowed to carry a concealed weapon. Are you going to blame it on the government because they do not allow you to carry a weapon there, and that if the law was different and allowed you to carry a weapon in these places, you could have made a difference and could have prevented a crime.

I will deal with this stuff as it crosses my path on a day-to-day basis. Common sense is required in these matters. If you lack it, you probably aren't going to get far in life, regardless of the status of the PPA.

If you carry in one of those places that are off limits, you risk being charged with a crime. However, if you justifiably had to brandish or, heaven forbid, use your weapon in one of those places, and innocent lives ended up being saved, I doubt you would be charged. And even if you were, conviction is another matter, entirely. Better judged by twelve, than carried by six... ;)



This bill has so many restrictions in it that it is not an effective way to prevent crime. There are also the arguements out there about keeping the permit records private or public. I agree with keeping them private because it is none of your damn business if I own a CCW permit. The arguement for public record is that if kept private, it would be nearly impossible to tell whether the law is working as intended and make sure the permits wind up solely in the hands of upstanding citizens.

Are you being intentionally obtuse, or do you truly not understand? This bill has NOTHING TO DO WITH CRIME PREVENTION, it is all about providing an otherwise law-abiding citizen with another tool to defend him or herself from the unknown. Criminals have guns. Why shouldn't a law-abiding citizen be allowed the opportunity to even the odds a little, WITHOUT having to worry about being charged with a crime?
The records probably should be made available to law enforcement agencies. I'd like to see them kept private, but unfortunately, that ain't the way the world works. So, if you feel the need to apply for and receive a CCW permit, then you have to be willing to give up a little privacy to get it. Remember, nobody says you have to have one, just don't deny me the right to do so, if I wish.



The idea of this bill is to give people protection that is psychological. The potential of not knowing whether someone is armed would prevent some people from committing a crime, but it will not deter everyone.

So what? If you can do so legally and it gives you peace of mind, what's the problem? Nobody said YOU MUST, they're only trying to say YOU MAY, IF YOU WISH.

As for the criminals that are not detered?... May they end up on cold, hard slabs everywhere... :banana



Just because I don't agree with you and your views, it doesn't mean that I don't understand the bill and its details.

Yeah, but you don't seem to be able to grasp the idea that someone might want to be able to look after themselves. You think that everybody should just let the government take care of all your needs, from cradle to grave. This appears to be a common thread in all liberal thinking. :punch:

[UnderPSI]

So, if you feel the need to apply for and receive a CCW permit, then you have to be willing to give up a little privacy to get it.


I have the same situation with having class three weapons and silencers. You have to get the tax stamps and a home inspection by a sheriff. They also have the right to come search to make sure the weapon is with you. That is just the price you pay to get to play. It has never bothered me nor has any one else (government bodies) either.

[Rocket Power]

I was cruising around the assembly site and checked to see who voted for the amendment (AA15 TO sb403) that dropped the BAC , no carrying with in so many ft of a school, etc. and nearly passed out when I saw my Assemblyman Staskunas actually voted FOR it. :wow So I sent him an email thanking him and asking if that amendment made it to the final bill that went to Doyles desk and Doyle vetoed it, would he vote for the override. Probably be a bit before I hear anything since they aren't in session, but I always hear from him even though we never agree.
That ammendment passed 71-25 in the assembly.

I think everyone who supports this should contact their assemblyman and state senator to make sure they are on board with the override.

If you don't know who they are look here:
Who Are My Legislators? (http://165.189.139.210/waml/)

[animal]

If you don't know who they are look here:
Who Are My Legislators? (http://165.189.139.210/waml/)

Presumably you got that from belling's site. Provided you've also paid attention to belling, you'd also know that emailing your legislators isn't ANYWHERE near as good as writing them or calling them. ;)

[Jake B. (Killer Quad)]

how many ppl have actually seen someone on hwy with a gun .

I have to comment here, from past experiance the people who do carry this law will have no effect on. They are not carring for protection! A friend had 9 rounds fired into his car cuz of typical teenage stupidity! They flashed a 22 pistol and payed for it! This was on HWY BTW they started the whole deal so guess they got what was coming!

But I'm for PPA and if it passes I will look into it more. Will I actually go through and get a permit, maybe or I may feel its just a waste of time an money for me. But I'd like that option to carry if I am able to! I have guns an I like my guns. Hopefully if this gose thru it will also help educate people on what gun control should really mean! Not banning guns all together for the law abiding citizens as some people are so hell bent on doing! I bought my guns legaly use them legaly and will not ever give them up!

[Rocket Power]

Presumably you got that from belling's site. Provided you've also paid attention to belling, you'd also know that emailing your legislators isn't ANYWHERE near as good as writing them or calling them. ;)
Actually I just went to the State site and looked for it, but I figured that's what belling had too :thumbsup
I don't know if my email carries the weight of a call, but I do always hear from back from both of them. They snail mail me back their responses since I always give my address. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to call too :D