Opinions wanted:

[quickcarl]

I think it is kind of foul for Popular Hotrodding and those other magazines to conduct competitions like "Engine Masters" and "Fastest Streetcar Shootouts", "Pump Gas Engine" contests and such, where the competitors spill their guts and tell their power and longevity secrets and get little reward for their efforts. The Magazines sell more copies (make money), get great publicity and sponsor dollars(make more money), and even in one case, create a whole new magazine based off of what they learned from the participants in the contest(make gobs more money). :fire :fire :fire

Maybe it's just my mentality, but I was always raised to keep certain secrets secret. If we all had the same $hit, then what fun would it be to race each other??? :confused :confused :confused

I am sure that the engine builders did not necessarily tell everything they knew, but some guys with less knowledge might have given it all away and blew up their $hit on the Dyno or Track, as well ---and went home empty handed. :chair:

[Syclone0044]

Carl, check my post on the Engine Masters 2005 Challenge (http://brewcitymuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9944) for my comments on it. (it was in the "Technical Discussion" forum which you may not be reading?

I think it's an awesome contest to say the least. And I wouldn't call $80,000 "little reward for their efforts" :confused

I can appreciate what you're saying about not giving away secrets for nothing, but at the same time if nobody shared information, we'd all be in the stone ages making 0.5 HP/cu.in.

Come to think of it, I've got the most relevant discussion on this topic for you, Carl. Prepare to be blown away! Pay special attention to Darin Morgan's (Reher Morrison cylinder head tech) comments on the 2nd page. http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=738

I've also got a little secret to show you, check for a PM from me. http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/secret.gif

[GRNDNL]

They do it as a advertisement....for the most part they get lots of print.

I'm sure they don't give every little thing they do up.... ;)

[Syclone0044]

BTW, I couldn't be any more thrilled :rockwoot: about the fact that Engine Masters is now a real magazine you can subscribe to, in fact I was hounding them months ago to subscribe and they weren't offering it yet. My advice is for you to subscribe as well!

[95 TA - The Beast]

Carl, now don't take this negatively, as that is not my intent, but maybe more of a explanation to cut-through some of the convoluted 'opinions' and strong 'view-points' towards this...

Now, what you view as 'giving-away' secrets is a VERY true viewpoint in regards to allow some to 'glean' certain tricks and tips in regards to optimizing a given combination. And that is the key isn't it, there are only so many combinations out there (yes staggering amounts of choices, but in reality only certain combinations actually build one components strengths against anothers resulting in a given 'recipe'), and those combinations are surely what can begin to seperate those that 'dabble' in HP and those that 'make' HP, but the key being that the combination itself does not gurantee someone will hit a certain number, but it shows the possibility to...

Now that being said, I believe you have a big problem with all of these engine building series because they give those that haven't invested time, money, blood, sweat and everything else into tweaking THIER combinations an edge on jumping in the deep-end and putting together combinations that, at least in the fairest sense, allows them to 'piss in the weeds with the big-dogs' and have the distinct possibility of being 'lucky enough' that thier 'thrown together' setup will, by chance, have just enough of an edge to produce the upper end of thier power/torque ranges to be one of those 'magical' setups...

Now, we both know that the key is to consistently be putting together motors that produce power, stay together and produce the numbers. To do this it takes a lot more than 'luck', it takes skill, an eye for details, the ability to cover all the aspects of the buildup and that is also where this 'giving away' of information closes the gap for the 'hacks' and the 'skilled' in that people will also be looking for these things without ever having figured it out or invested enough time to have mastered it on thier own. And in that I also agree...

We are also dealing with an environment where with people sharing the knowledge as they are doing, the combinations are all becoming quite cookie-cutter because a lot of the 'knowns' have been gone through so many times (just look at the turbo Buick for a good example) and the info leaks out so much that in the end you only have advantages in areas that YOU have mastered and have not shared, but to get there it takes so much time, money and investment, I believe it is actually a dying breed for people to be that commited to actually attain that level of expertise. And again, I am in agreement that these build-offs give away far more in the way of information than they need to...

But the big point here is, this information is only TRUELY useful to someone with the skill to attain the same results as those giving the information away. Again, 'luck' can play a part and allow a mediocre builder to attain excellent results, but in the end, it is the lack of experience and professionalism that will keep that individual from obtaining the same results over and over again.

On the 'positive' side of things, if all this 'extraneous' info floating around helps someone attain a greater knowledge of what they are doing and helps them further thier drive and motivation towards becoming competent and experienced enough to enter the ranks of those that can build mills that produce and do it consistantly, is that such a bad thing?

Or, is it just a matter of an attitude of, the fewer the competitors, the better I'll stand out in the end??? (not meant as a vicious attack, just a quick and concise query into the mentality behind the ultimate hatred of giving this info away, ie, the devils advocate viewpoint)

Dennis

[Prince Valiant]

My opinion opinion of the competition has little to do with the guys who freely choose to participate and share...no one forces them to do it, they do it for publicity and in part for their ego and their competitive drive...and maybe make a little prize money. They know what they'd have to share going into it, and it's not like they are guarding any super precious secrets like where the holy grail is...

But as for the competition itself, it is much like what NASCAR has kind of become imo.

It's not neccessarily a bad thing, mind you...It's just that the basis of it is essentially this: The engines that are competing don't neccessarily represent the best of the best, just the best of the best within the given and somewhat convoluted rule requirements.

I think i'd kill to have anyone of those engines for a car...I just don't think that the winners always have the engine I'd pick...just the best "all-around" engine, that sometimes wouldn't even be the fastest if put in a car.

Do they give away all their secrets though? For some reason, I can't recall what any of these guys use for cams, or how these guys are programing their timing curves and what jetting they run...just that many run undersquare engines when they can, and have thermal coatings on most of their combustion surfaces, and other pidily stuff like that.

I'd like to see an enginemasters challenge in which they remove the octane requirements, narrow the band in which average power and torque is obtained to something you'd see in a drag race in which you are always pretty close to peak hp, and just let the guys go all out to see who can build the most power....as that will likely be the killer engine given the correct chasis/drivetrain...and see what power these guys could achieve given those criteria...the ones the guys at the races use.

[Cryptic]

typical long book response

Holy crap Dennis, where you been?

[quickcarl]

Wow , and I thought I was the only one that wrote long a$$ed paragraph novels and $hit !!! I was expecting many of you guys' points to be used as replies.

I agree with you guys for the most part, but I Just do not like where a magazine writer gets a crash course on this stuff by visiting a few shops, and all of a sudden he's a guru and $hit. Half the time, the writer still doesn't know what he's talking about, and is giving out erroneous info. How about in last month's EngineMasters where the writer was building his own engine--"The Ultra", and he was probing readers for their input, and how he can get more power from it??? That's GAY. If he knows so much, how about losing that sh!t carburetor and putting a Dominator on it. Reading the writers stories, and writeups on featured cars, I can tell that they really are putting on a pretty good act and fooling most people. I never claim to know everything, but I don't front. And I do not exploit people for their knowledge. That would be immoral.

As for the $80,000, only the winner(s) get a chunk of that, right?? What about the guys that did not win?? They still revealed very useful info that when added to the info of the winning combos, could stir up a real killer concoction................am I right?? :confused

Their point of selling magazines is well made, but the losers alike should be paid something for their contributions. Pay them for every word they utter---share the profits, so-to-speak.

I built Lucifer--a bad a$$ed 511-- and made the mistake of selling it to someone. There was alot of my best kept power secrets in that engine. That engine evolved----eliminating "tricks" that did nothing for production of power---or at least bang for the buck. Fortunately, the bozo that bought it knew not what he had and it's potential, so he called himself rebuilding it and changed many key things inside of it. I can remember him calling me and asking me where to degree the cam to, and what the camshaft specs were. After all of his sh!t talk behind my back(because of HIS abuse and mistakes with the engine), I found it quite pleasurable to tell him to go to hell. C&S helped him to change &/or remove many things in that engine, rebuilt it for him a couple of years later, then it never ran right again. :rolf

Score:
Carl-------------10 points
Ryan------------0 points

[quickcarl]

Do they give away all their secrets though? For some reason, I can't recall what any of these guys use for cams, or how these guys are programing their timing curves and what jetting they run...just that many run undersquare engines when they can, and have thermal coatings on most of their combustion surfaces, and other pidily stuff like that.

I'd like to see an enginemasters challenge in which they remove the octane requirements, narrow the band in which average power and torque is obtained to something you'd see in a drag race in which you are always pretty close to peak hp, and just let the guys go all out to see who can build the most power....as that will likely be the killer engine given the correct chasis/drivetrain...and see what power these guys could achieve given those criteria...the ones the guys at the races use.

I do not think things like "timing curves and Camshaft profiles or degreeing are piddly, but useless things like piston top coating are piddly.

The parameters seem to be to get an "answer" to a question. Perhaps the question is something to do with, "how much power can we get from a given octane fuel and cubic inch engine???". Then they should spend the research dollars and find out like we're expected to do--as regular guys--paying engine shop customers. Engine builders have to feed their families(and afford to do more racetrack research) too, right???

[95 TA - The Beast]

Carl, ok you hit on two key issues here, and let me address them independently...

First, in regards to the blatent ignorance and stupidity of magazine article writers, and MOST of the 'horsepower' journalists in this world, it is true, most do not have the technical, engineering, nor applied background to fully understand what they write about. At the same time, they dabble in something they feel they are 'entitled' to know because they can get close to master engine builders and 'speak the lingo', but in reality they don't know proper, nor valid questions to ask to maximize the experience and knowledge-transfer from those very same people, so it is akin to a caveman asking a nuclear scientist to explain his work... Too much gets lost in the translation, thus the articles written are much less than they should be and in some cases only confuse the less-knowledgeable and cheapen the sport at the same time...

At the same time, it is funny to us with a real 'clue' about what is going on to watch such forays into stupidity and laugh all the while viewing thier 'greatest achievment' for what it is, a amateur attempt at something with no real basis for comparsion... They key here being is that propaganda sells, and when propaganda and technical info are the subject of the sale, true information is always lost... Now that is good and bad... Good for us with a clue as we can laugh and know better, as well as 'reading between the lines' and understanding the true information present while discarding tons of BS and lies that just make for a better 'story'... (for example, have you actually sat down and read a Smokey Yunick or Vizard book? They are PRIME examples of real info buried in a ton of useless crap that confuses the ignorant and allows those with the ability to think to decipher the useful content) Bad for those that take what is being written as gospel and waste thier time and money buying what they think is the 'hot-ticket' and finding out it is mediocre at best, and downright worthless at worst...

In the end, unless some people truely write some solid technical articles based on years of thier experience, explaining all aspects of what, how and why, those true 'secrets' will remain still secret...

Now in regards to the payouts, yes I agree, everyone that competes should get some level of sponsership in the least, along with a $$$ consolation prize for taking thier time to compete, as you have said, to the benefit of the magazines and sponsers alike...

In regards to the 'validity' of such a 'build-off' for the sake of power generation, the key here is to allow professional builders to showcase thier abilities to produce 'useable' power for a variety of applications, with a variety of products, with no one single application being targeted... It would be way different for drag race only setups, street only setups, road race, etc... The biggest reason behind all of this is to show off products and potentials, that is all... Since if it were all about all-out performance in one direction only it would alienate a large subsection of potential customers and that is a major marketing no-no... ;)

[Reverend Cooper]

its a good point some secrets should be you secrets thats what keeps your edge

[Cryptic]

its a good point some secrets should be you secrets thats what keeps your edge

I'll translate:

It's a good point, some secrets should be your secrets. That's what keeps your edge.

[nismodave]

Isnt that what classes are all about, HP, and chassis/tire setup being somewhat equal.

I know that you drag racers depend alot on HP, and Suspenion setup, along with a good reaction time. But when I raced Karts for many years, my equipment was outclassed most of the time. I had to make up for it in hard work and driving skill.

Getting back to guys sharing "secret" setup tips........SO WHAT??

If you are one of the best DRIVERS in your perspective motorsport, all things being "equal", you be victorious.

My 2 cents.

[95 TA - The Beast]

Isnt that what classes are all about, HP, and chassis/tire setup being somewhat equal.

I know that you drag racers depend alot on HP, and Suspenion setup, along with a good reaction time. But when I raced Karts for many years, my equipment was outclassed most of the time. I had to make up for it in hard work and driving skill.

Getting back to guys sharing "secret" setup tips........SO WHAT??

If you are one of the best DRIVERS in your perspective motorsport, all things being "equal", you be victorious.

My 2 cents.

Key here is, that things are NEVER *equal* in any kind of competition...

[quickcarl]

In regards to the 'validity' of such a 'build-off' for the sake of power generation, the key here is to allow professional builders to showcase thier abilities to produce 'useable' power for a variety of applications, with a variety of products, with no one single application being targeted... It would be way different for drag race only setups, street only setups, road race, etc... The biggest reason behind all of this is to show off products and potentials, that is all... Since if it were all about all-out performance in one direction only it would alienate a large subsection of potential customers and that is a major marketing no-no... ;)


I totally agree.

I like you. You're well spoken and you seem to see where I am coming from.
And, no I'm not :gay

:rolf

[quickcarl]

Isnt that what classes are all about, HP, and chassis/tire setup being somewhat equal.

I know that you drag racers depend alot on HP, and Suspenion setup, along with a good reaction time. But when I raced Karts for many years, my equipment was outclassed most of the time. I had to make up for it in hard work and driving skill.

Getting back to guys sharing "secret" setup tips........SO WHAT??

If you are one of the best DRIVERS in your perspective motorsport, all things being "equal", you be victorious.

My 2 cents.

Sorry, Dave, but you missed the point by like 20 miles or something like that. In Drag racing or almost any form of racing, you want to get and keep your edge. Racing classes nowadays(in drag racing) are not about things being equal or fair in any way. Thats where upper-midwesterners fail. Up here, people are always trying to make sh!t fair. NEWSFLASH: Sh!t aint fair....life aint fair. Classes up here are more about cliques and exclusion, and NOT making a playing field level or "fair". Fair is a relative term. Things for rule makers are "fair" if they pertain to their combo or their friend's combo. If you want examples, I can give them, and it would blow your mind----that can be another thread.

Tires level a field. Suspension design parameters level a field. In drag racing, that's pretty much it. There are so many variables in everything else, that there is no real world way (notice how I did not use the word "fair") to pair up any of the possible engine combinations and place them in a realistic class. Blowers and turbos cannot be classed together with all other things being equal. Nitrous engines all paired together in one class cannot even be directly classed--regardless of weight breaks. They have tried, but in the end, it is not a legitimate match. 1600 horsepower from a 600 inch engine is in no way the same as 1600 horsepower from a 400 cube engine. The smaller engine might or might not break more often, but would be a faster and more efficient combo than the 600" engine. The 600" engine has to harness more torque, and has to control initial application of torque to get the car moving, and then manage the rest from 300 feet on to the end of the track. The lil' motor can mindlessly dump a load through it, and let the powerband do it's thing.
Nitrous cannot be paired with forced induction. Every year, people learn so much more about their particular power adder, that the cars are all but impossible to class together.

Tires and suspension allow all combos to be on a level playing field. In my opinion, a 29.5 x 10.5-non"w" tire is about the limit for seperating the men from the idiots. When I don't really want to do any work (racing is work at this level), then I throw on the 33 x 10.5w tires, and get stupid. Those big a$$ed things will hook on ice. When I feel creative, and want to do some "research", I play around on the 29.5 tires. The lil' tires take a real driver and a good crew to keep you off the guardrail. I can still turn excellent #'s on the little tires--but it takes finesse. Modified Super street cars at the last 2 races, failed to impress me. A few ran great numbers, but they were all over the track--or blew the tires off--and only ran high 7's. I have run their numbers and gone straight as a string. Guys I raced with down south, go faster yet, and on half the tire-----as straight as a string.

Their "secrets" are how these feats of drag racing are accomplished. Their racing is the most amazing thing to every single northerner that I have spoken to, who went down there to see it. Their racers do not whine about what's "fair", or bug other racers for their secrets---they just figure their own sh!t out.

[Syclone0044]

Dennis, I've got some strong constructive criticism that I hope doesn't come across too flameful. As you know, I have a lot of respect for some of your building strategies and street car idealogies etc. and your current Trans Am. But that doesn't mean I won't point out where I think you're wrong (and I hope anyone else would do the same for me, as long as it's constructive.) With that being said...

I had a hard time reading your thoughts on this topic. I read them more than once, I really tried - but I couldn't get past your overly offensive and "holier than thou" statements littered throughout your points of argument. Your points of view tend to come with the implied disclaimer of "If you don't agree with me, you're an absolute fool." and to the best of my knowledge, threats never make for a good argument.

If this seems defensive, perhaps it's because you managed to insult anyone reading your lengthy response, who doesn't fully agree with you.


it is funny to us with a real 'clue' about what is going on to watch such forays into stupidity and laugh all the while viewing thier 'greatest achievment' for what it is, a amateur attempt at something with no real basis for comparsion... :rolleyes: I don't even know where to begin with that. I suspect the reason you "laugh and point" at this competition from up on your high horse, has a lot to do with the fact that you personally would never participate in any type of competition where you stood a legitimate chance at losing or being judged against something similar and coming out on the short end. Which is fine, not everyone has to compete, but that doesn't mean everyone who DOES want to compete in the name of fun/progress/glory/respect/etc. is stupid or an amateur and deserves to be insulted/belittled. The "basis for comparison" seemed really simple to me - any 509 ci n/a carb'ed engine running 91 octane gasoline with maximum average power between 2500 and 6500. What's wrong with an engine building competition for the sake of engine building? That's what this is, and as an engine builder yourself I am surprised you aren't more interested in it, but I suspect it has something to do with your tendency to avoid competitions in general. In other words, I would expect to hear your insults and attacks towards ANY competition and it almost seems more like sour grapes than legitimate debate about why a particular challenge is or isn't "pointless"...


The biggest reason behind all of this is to show off products and potentials, that is all... Since if it were all about all-out performance in one direction only it would alienate a large subsection of potential customers and that is a major marketing no-no... I suspect the customer base of Engine Masters magazine is engine builders. What is alienating to them about an engine building competition? What about this competition would prevent it from being held in the exact same manner if it was all privately funded without any advertisers? You're "oh so confident" about your suspicions on what's "behind the scenes" yet you really haven't shown the concrete evidence to jump to such a conclusion with that level of certainty.


Key here is, that things are NEVER *equal* in any kind of competition... I could go on for a long time about this outrageous statement (for which you provided no supporting arguments), but I'll simply start off by asking what would be unfair or unequal about two men engaging in a game of checkers? Since your statement contains easily disprovable terms ("NEVER" and "any kind"), it would only take a single equal competition to disprove your statement. Also, isn't "equality" judged differently by each individual? So how can you make such a factual assertion regarding The Way Things Are? Frankly, I am surprised to see you speaking in such extremes, I thought you were more reasonable in considering possibilities. So no competition is ever fair? Are you sure you don't have a chip on your shoulder about competitions?

Like I said; I don't mean this as a personal attack, but it ends up sounding like it when I respond to where you've basically written everyone off who disagrees with you, as an idiot. I can tell you are passionate about this subject and I find it unfortunate that your personal bias on the topic seem to reduce the credibility of the points your making..........But not as unfortunate as the fact that neither you (or Carl) seems to have looked up the link I posted earlier, a link where the REAL pros of the industry (guys who actually build engines for a living and get paid a lot of money and have coincidentally had success in organized, respected competitions) discuss their feelings on this very topic. :rolleyes:

I have read some of your posts on the LT1 forum and I noticed the same offensive, authoritative, closed-mind tone over there. I might suggest that you allow for possibilities and keep an open mind, or how else do you ever learn something new?

Alright, I'm zipping up my flame suit now for the blast I'll surely recieve in response... :devil :goof

[Syclone0044]

Does anyone have any books they can recommend, or websites with detailed information, where I can read more on the history of competitions and rule making? (preferably in auto racing but not necessarily.) I've been wanting to research this topic more heavily for the past year or two but didn't know where to turn.

[Syclone0044]

Guys I raced with down south, go faster yet, and on half the tire-----as straight as a string.

Their "secrets" are how these feats of drag racing are accomplished. Their racing is the most amazing thing to every single northerner that I have spoken to, who went down there to see it. Their racers do not whine about what's "fair", or bug other racers for their secrets---they just figure their own sh!t out. Carl, I wonder if it's a large factor that the racers down there probably have a large amount of respect for one another, and everyone knows and silently agrees to not taint the competition or it would ruin the spirit of the whole thing? For instance do they do any fuel testing or does everyone just "know better" than to put additives in their fuel that would go against the spirit of the rules? From what I have seen, it only takes 1 bad apple to spoil it for everyone by taking the rules and bending them too far. Good competitions only seem to last so long before someone siezes an opportunity that they probably shouldn't have. http://www.warrifles.com/forums/images/smilies/2cents1.gif

[95 TA - The Beast]

Josh, it truely is not worth my time to do a long-drawn out overview on how your conclusions about what I said are very juvenile and not so much immature, but un-informed... But I just can't help 'laying it all out there'...

I will take a moment to clarify a few direct points that you 'attempted' to use as a basis for your being offended...

First off, my comment about the authors 'greatest achievement' was worded and in the context of a given authors attempts at being a 'gearhead' and in reality thier being just a noob and having no clue... The comment was a 'point and laugh' at thier 'awe' of an accomplishment that pales in comparison to the long-time involvement most of the true 'informed' readers have in motorsports, thus the author is the one being laughed at... You 'assumed without understanding' that I was talking about the competitions, which I was not... Please refrain from making references to my material without properly understanding the context as I will refuse to clarify things to you since you obviously have a problem comprehending the written language...

Secondly, this whole thread is about personal viewpoints. Plain and simple. I posted a reply to Carl in regards to his viewpoint and even went through the detailed dissection of the competitions, thier impact on those 'with a clue' and the generalized view from MY VIEWPOINT. Nothing more. If you took it as being arrogant, then you surely are either extremely jealous, or just plain too sensitive because if you notice, I didn't slam, nor attack anyone, and just gave a viewpoint I was certain that Carl would understand based upon his own view of the 'competitions'...

Lastly, the view of the Engine Masters from an engine builders viewpoint is that it is a build-off... Nothing more. If it were more it would be a detailed in-depth engineering level dissection of every aspect of the builds, what they did to make more power and exactly how it affected thier buildup vs other choices they could have made. In reality, the overviews are just that, overviews, with little factual informormation other than some tips and tricks that can be gleaned as highlights, but it is far from a 'how-to' guide and leaves those with an understanding of intricate levels of details of such builds with less than an appreciable amount of information. Now I will say some of the people involved in the build-offs happen to have thier own web pages which sometimes go much further into detail, but again it is stats, not 'how-tos'...

And in regards to my 'attitude', I post a viewpoint, I don't kiss peoples asses, I don't attack others unless I feel they are morally or ethically in the wrong (kinda viewing it like a public service to be the 'outspoken one'), but in regards to technical stuff, I will admit I don't post anywhere near the level of information I have learned and 'earned' because I invested a ton of time, money and energy aquiring my knowledge and to 'give it away' happens to just allow others a 'quick cheat' and in reality I have found that it tends to cheapen myself as an individual because people mis-interprete what is said (like you obviously have on multiple occasions), mess something up, or don't reach the same results because of a lack of experience or know-how and then end up bad-mouthing the person they got the information from. Why do you think I have been quiet for over a year? A few years back I couldn't go anywhere without people looking to start technical debates, at the best, all out fights at the worst, over stupidity they themselves had no clue or a flawed basis for understanding of, but thought since they read something somewhere that they knew as much as someone else...

One thing I will say about you personally Josh is that you are a hard person to try to talk to, in that you try to glean information from others, try to get as much as you can from them, and in return end up trying to best thier knowledge and experience and want to come out as some sort of authority on things... Or at least that is the way it seems... The key is, you haven't earned the right nor become wise enough to a) obtain the knowledge and more importantly b) to disseminate it and understand it for what it is worth, thus you feel others are always 'holding back' info and you think that you are being 'kept out of the loop'... Reality check, the loop is just that a give and take... As a noob you have to learn, invest and educate yourself and then start having something else to offer before you can expect people to just give you everything they know and then take the time to try to explain it in a manner that you can understand... Anyone that walks up to someone and starts asking them a ton of technical information is going to piss them off, as in 'who the hell is this little chit asking me this kind of stuff'... I mean it took us true 'gearheads' years and years of blood, sweat, experience and VERY importantly, money, to gain this knowledge and you expect us to just give it all away to someone that, at times, comes off as 'a cocky asshole' that expects he can just get all the info and experience at our expense???

I know EXACTLY where Carl is coming from in regards to his being pissed that people are getting info for 'virtually nothing' and that is the key of this whole thread...

Most of the time that I may *seem* to be arrogant is that it is because I expect others to do thier own homework... The internet is a vast resource, as are otehr individuals, but all of that information doesn't do you any good if you don't try to understand the concepts, the basics and in general if you are just looking for a handout... That is the key, very few are truely involved in any interest, and I mean enough to spend hours upon hours not only reading things, but doing things and finding out for themselves... This is all a give and take, and after a while you tend to feel that there are a lot more taking than giving...

If you wouldn't come off as trying to get 'everyones info and knowledge' and actually participate without being a smart-ass and trying to prove others wrong (biggest mistake of ALL noobs is a lack of humility), then you would probably be more well received... You have to contribute and respect others to earn that respect yourself...

[95 TA - The Beast]

And in regards to 'competitions' it is quite a foolish notion to think anything is ever 'fair' and 'even' when it comes down to it... EVERYONE is looking for an edge and a way to win, plain and simple... To think otherwise goes to show truely how ignorant you are... ie, people will ALWAYS be looking for loopholes in the rules, bending the rules, trying to get away with stuff they shouldn't, etc... If that weren't the case, then we would all live in an Utopian society were everyone is honest, loyal and there would be no need for rules... :rolf

[95 TA - The Beast]

One last thing, I have explained it to you before about my not 'caring' to compete, as I have spent far more than most have on thier cars, so if competing was the key I would have done it long ago, but I built my car for me to enjoy, not for me to compete with... I mean hell, if I had wanted to compete I would have just kept the White T/A I had and done it with that, but as it stands I have far too much else on my plate, and competing to 'prove something' just isn't a priority...

Not to say I probably won't at some point run a number, just saying that for me to be a hardcore competitor just isn't a big 'need' for me right now...

[nismodave]

Sorry, Dave, but you missed the point by like 20 miles or something like that. In Drag racing or almost any form of racing, you want to get and keep your edge. Racing classes nowadays(in drag racing) are not about things being equal or fair in any way. Thats where upper-midwesterners fail. Up here, people are always trying to make sh!t fair. NEWSFLASH: Sh!t aint fair....life aint fair. Classes up here are more about cliques and exclusion, and NOT making a playing field level or "fair". Fair is a relative term. Things for rule makers are "fair" if they pertain to their combo or their friend's combo. If you want examples, I can give them, and it would blow your mind----that can be another thread.

Tires level a field. Suspension design parameters level a field. In drag racing, that's pretty much it. There are so many variables in everything else, that there is no real world way (notice how I did not use the word "fair") to pair up any of the possible engine combinations and place them in a realistic class. Blowers and turbos cannot be classed together with all other things being equal. Nitrous engines all paired together in one class cannot even be directly classed--regardless of weight breaks. They have tried, but in the end, it is not a legitimate match. 1600 horsepower from a 600 inch engine is in no way the same as 1600 horsepower from a 400 cube engine. The smaller engine might or might not break more often, but would be a faster and more efficient combo than the 600" engine. The 600" engine has to harness more torque, and has to control initial application of torque to get the car moving, and then manage the rest from 300 feet on to the end of the track. The lil' motor can mindlessly dump a load through it, and let the powerband do it's thing.
Nitrous cannot be paired with forced induction. Every year, people learn so much more about their particular power adder, that the cars are all but impossible to class together.

Tires and suspension allow all combos to be on a level playing field. In my opinion, a 29.5 x 10.5-non"w" tire is about the limit for seperating the men from the idiots. When I don't really want to do any work (racing is work at this level), then I throw on the 33 x 10.5w tires, and get stupid. Those big a$$ed things will hook on ice. When I feel creative, and want to do some "research", I play around on the 29.5 tires. The lil' tires take a real driver and a good crew to keep you off the guardrail. I can still turn excellent #'s on the little tires--but it takes finesse. Modified Super street cars at the last 2 races, failed to impress me. A few ran great numbers, but they were all over the track--or blew the tires off--and only ran high 7's. I have run their numbers and gone straight as a string. Guys I raced with down south, go faster yet, and on half the tire-----as straight as a string.

Their "secrets" are how these feats of drag racing are accomplished. Their racing is the most amazing thing to every single northerner that I have spoken to, who went down there to see it. Their racers do not whine about what's "fair", or bug other racers for their secrets---they just figure their own sh!t out.

I dont think I missed it as much as you think. I never said the word "fair" in my statement.

Tricks and secrets will always eventually figured out by others.

Hell when I raced karts for year we did thing like, first ones to run BIG air filters, Exhaust temp, and a few other things. All legal in the rules but not done by many others.

I have no clue what is involved with putting together a REAL drag car like your Camaro. And Im sure with your years of experience of Destroying compitition that you do things with your car that the other guys would have no clue why you did them.

But as far as guys going on TV and in Mags telling go-fast secrets, Im sure that is frustrating to guys like yourself, who had to learn on their own, though trial and error.

But thats the way it is now in this world of information we live in.

[Syclone0044]

Hey Carl, I apologize for getting into a lengthy and somewhat off topic discussion on your topic. I contacted Dennis off line so as to not further interrupt, and we spoke at length.

[quickcarl]

Carl, I wonder if it's a large factor that the racers down there probably have a large amount of respect for one another, and everyone knows and silently agrees to not taint the competition or it would ruin the spirit of the whole thing? For instance do they do any fuel testing or does everyone just "know better" than to put additives in their fuel that would go against the spirit of the rules? From what I have seen, it only takes 1 bad apple to spoil it for everyone by taking the rules and bending them too far. Good competitions only seem to last so long before someone siezes an opportunity that they probably shouldn't have. http://www.warrifles.com/forums/images/smilies/2cents1.gif

One guy showed up with a total Racecar that dropped back from Outlaw 10.5. The car was mostly tin and tube chassis, with a rearend that was narrowed so much that the 10.5's were swallowed up--and were barely visible underneath the car. He proceeded to actually do quite well, but stirred up much drama and confusion. The sweetness of his efforts to steamroll the field were short lived, though because everyone on top stepped up their game. Two top contenders replaced their 615's with Fulton's higher grade 706 Mountain pieces, and shut his a$s down. Now who looks like more of an idiot? The guy with the race car (to me)--- getting spanked by streetmachines with full interiors power windows, headliners and all !!!

Yes, they do seem to have more respect for each other(just a little), but even more respect for the true spirit of the rules in their respective classes.

[quickcarl]

I dont think I missed it as much as you think. I never said the word "fair" in my statement.

Tricks and secrets will always eventually figured out by others.

Hell when I raced karts for year we did thing like, first ones to run BIG air filters, Exhaust temp, and a few other things. All legal in the rules but not done by many others.

I have no clue what is involved with putting together a REAL drag car like your Camaro. And Im sure with your years of experience of Destroying compitition that you do things with your car that the other guys would have no clue why you did them.

But as far as guys going on TV and in Mags telling go-fast secrets, Im sure that is frustrating to guys like yourself, who had to learn on their own, though trial and error.

But thats the way it is now in this world of information we live in.
Sorry, Dave I might have missed some of that, but we still brought out some good points.