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Syclone0044
11-28-2005, 01:49 PM
Hey import owners, this is an honest question I am hoping I can get some info on. How come everywhere I look, I see guys with very small engines (1.8L-2.4L) putting on HUGE turbos, often times bigger than the "600HP capable" PT51 "T3-family" (?) unit I have on my 4.3L Syclone? I managed to get this 3650# behemoth down the track in 12.2 seconds with the stock TD06-17C turbo at 20 PSI Boost. Why would a lighter weight import with a smaller engine need a bigger turbo to run similar or lesser times?

I would say that I have relatively poor throttle response on my truck, even with a 2600 converter it's quite a bit less responsive than the stock turbo was with the stock 2100 RPM converter. Basically if you want to go fast, you've pretty much got to hold the pedal down.

I'm looking at turbos for a little street project I'm considering on 3 Liter engine, and the ones I'm considering virtually all fall in a range much smaller than the turbos I see all the imports talking about (20G, GT35R, GT40+ etc.). My understanding was, on a street car you want a turbo that's going to give you good response and good part throttle boost and quick spool over the small gains in top end you might get with a gigantic unit and huge exhaust housing. :confused

With these imports I'm wondering how the response is, does the engine basically function like an "on/off switch"? Do you guys get any boost at low RPM or part throttle? What is that like to drive around?

My thought on what would be the most fun to drive around would be a huge big block with loads of instant throttle response, the whole small engine, high RPM, huge turbo thing seems like the polar opposite of that.

I have "zero" import experience so I'm hoping some of you guys can clue me in (and maybe I can take notes for my little project too.) Thanks!! :thumbsup

nismodave
11-28-2005, 04:35 PM
Well my car does not make huge #s. Around 400 to da wheels at 19 psi.

I dont get full boost until 4200 and I redline at 7700.

I enjoy driving my car on the street all the time. I think if I go bigger on the Turbo it will lose alot of streetability.

Unlike alot of the other import guys here in SE WI, 1/4 mile times are not the only thing I shoot for. I sure enjoy my reliability and streetablity with my setup.

Teufelhunden
11-28-2005, 07:18 PM
I managed to get this 3650# behemoth down the track in 12.2 seconds with the stock TD06-17C turbo at 20 PSI Boost. Why would a lighter weight import with a smaller engine need a bigger turbo to run similar or lesser times? Stock block(small) + stock 14b(smaller) + fwd dsm(light weight) = 10.841@126.63(20 psi/no N2O)

1/4 Time 10.841
1/4 MPH 126.63
1/8 Time 6.966
1/8 MPH 101.83
60' 1.579

www.dsmtimes.org (http://dsmtimes.org/times.php?Header_Type=Turbo_14b&Page=1)

Syclone0044
11-28-2005, 07:53 PM
Stock block(small) + stock 14b(smaller) + fwd dsm(light weight) = 10.841@126.63(20 psi/no N2O)

1/4 Time 10.841
1/4 MPH 126.63
1/8 Time 6.966
1/8 MPH 101.83
60' 1.579

www.dsmtimes.org (http://dsmtimes.org/times.php?Header_Type=Turbo_14b&Page=1)
OK, that didn't really prove anything. A list of the top 100 fastest cars with a 14b turbo on a mass produced car versus my results? :confused The car you cited seems to be about 1 second and 10 MPH faster than the next closest candidate, so there's obviously an incredibly major detail missing from the story there. My comment (that you quoted) referred to my results, implying comparison to local guys like me and their results with their DSMs.

Teufelhunden
11-28-2005, 08:03 PM
Wasn't trying to prove anything or really help ;). Tuning is always the biggest factor, as you know.

EvolvedRegal
11-28-2005, 09:51 PM
Well my car does not make huge #s. Around 400 to da wheels at 19 psi.

I dont get full boost until 4200 and I redline at 7700.

I enjoy driving my car on the street all the time. I think if I go bigger on the Turbo it will lose alot of streetability.

Unlike alot of the other import guys here in SE WI, 1/4 mile times are not the only thing I shoot for. I sure enjoy my reliability and streetablity with my setup.


Good god, full boost at 4200???? thats some lag oops I mean preperation time. I can hit full boost at damn near 3200.

Syclone- you also have to look at how much air the turbo pushes also. Say on a 16g at 20psi feels great, but on a 35r at 12-13 psi feels like the same thing. Although the larger turbo seems like it takes forever to spool you are still making a lot of power because the turbo is moving A LOT more air. The 16g I am running has been heavily ported on the cold side and massaged on the hot side with a larger outlet 10.5 vs 9.8 housings. This set-up is going to be pitched in 3 weeks and moving onto a stroker and larger turbo, most likely a 35r, maybe even a 40 (space limits me) Here is a video of AMS's evo still with a 2.0 and a 42r. http://media.ams-evo8.com/amsonthestreet.wmv

And here are some pics of the set-up:
http://media.ams-evo8.com/tn_DSC04805.JPG
http://media.ams-evo8.com/tn_DSC04809.JPG

Oh and also full boost isn't really a good way to determine the turbos capabilities.

number1
11-28-2005, 09:55 PM
That DSM is the fastest 14b powered car in the nation. That car doesn't have anything in it, I bet it ways 1500 pounds. And I agree with you syclone, most imports run big turbos because they think that is the only way to have a faster car. In fact running a smaller turbo that can spool and give the car more area under the curve would net better gains.

fireguyrick
11-28-2005, 10:07 PM
2.5ltr with a Gt35r .82 AR

I actually like the drivability with this setup over the stock setup. Sure, I do not see the full 22psi of boost till ~4krpm, but I get better MPG because it is easier to stay out of boost. Though, with the short gearing of the STi it is VERY easy to get into boost by just downshifting.

Rick

Russ Jerome
11-28-2005, 10:18 PM
you also have to look at how much air the turbo pushes also. Say on a 16g at 20psi feels great, but on a 35r at 12-13 psi feels like the same thing. Although the larger turbo seems like it takes forever to spool you are still making a lot of power because the turbo is moving A LOT more air. .

Agreed, 20psi of cooler flowing air will beat the same setup overspooling
and heating 25psi thru an undersized turbo. The new family's of GT35 and
the like turbo's are light years ahead of the old Turbonetics wheels that
were designed in the 50's. My old design Turbonetics 60E is at full boost
by 3800, same setup with a GT35 is fully spooled by 3100 in a little 2.2.

My 60E fullsize with a stage 3, .63 exaust is not huge by definition but
will support well in excess of what I will ever put to it. It's a blast to
drive on street even tho I am automatic, no smoky burnout just feels
like a rubberband until tires ignite shifting to second :)

Berettaspeed
11-28-2005, 10:33 PM
When you get rid of the Stock sycolne turbo ill buy it from you...

Why not upgrade to the "20G" wheel???

ProjectCamaro
11-28-2005, 11:17 PM
I always wondered the same thing. I use to be into imports and all the turbo kits seemed to come with the 16G turbo which is WAY to big for a stock 1.6 or 1.8 liter.

Junky Giorgio
11-29-2005, 06:59 AM
I always wondered the same thing. I use to be into imports and all the turbo kits seemed to come with the 16G turbo which is WAY to big for a stock 1.6 or 1.8 liter.
oh wow... where the heck have you been. "forced induction; the replacement for displacement" ;)

Crawlin
11-29-2005, 09:41 AM
aren't you still in the 13's? so i'd say that it really didn't replace my displacement :)

WilliamZ
11-29-2005, 09:48 AM
He is nowhere right now :(

Crawlin
11-29-2005, 09:50 AM
yeah i know, i got an oil trail out my garage and down my driveway and onto the street leading me to where he is:) hahaha

i'm just ******* with ya Junk, my **** ain't going anywhere either

Syclone0044
11-29-2005, 10:46 AM
Well my car does not make huge #s. Around 400 to da wheels at 19 psi.

I dont get full boost until 4200 and I redline at 7700. What turbo(s)[?] are you running now? I was just browsing some Nissan forums last week searching for turbo information by coincidence :thumbsup

EvolvedRegal and Russ Jerome: I've heard the same thing repeated all the time, and in my experience it's just not true (or the effect is grossly overexaggerated.) The stock turbo compressor maps (http://www.enzoco.com/mike/syclone/maps.htm) on my truck suggested I would have "low effeciency" and "excessively heated air charge" the further I got beyond 14 PSI boost, yet I continued to experience gains as I turned it up all the way to 20-21 PSI. (no gains beyond that.) Furthermore, I then upgraded from the 550cfm stock Mitsu TD06-17c/8cm2 turbo with 2.5" stock crimp-bend downpipe to a PTE Buick-style "PT51" 950cfm turbo with a huge .86 A/R turbine housing and T350 exhaust wheel and a big 3" mandel downpipe, and guess what? NO FASTER AT THE SAME BOOST! The difference was downright negligble. At 15-18 PSI there was no gain whatsoever, and much slower spool. At 19-20 PSI Perhaps 1 tenth 1MPH. The only REAL gains were the higher boost range this turbo could operate at (20-25+ PSI). In other words, I would put money on my truck with the stock turbo at 20 PSI "hot air, out of efficiency" versus the big PT51 at 15 PSI "flowing much more air" any day. The difference is obvious by seat of the pants.

In my opinion, you'll only get REAL gains (the kind worth paying money for) if your existing turbo is an extreme bottleneck (for instance a stock turbo on a vehicle with upgraded heads/cam, or poorly sized stock turbo from the factory), or you plan on running higher boost than you ever could run (efficiently) before. If someone ran significantly faster at the same boost merely by upgrading their turbo (and not falling into any of the categories I already covered), I'd be interested to learn about it.


most imports run big turbos because they think that is the only way to have a faster car. In fact running a smaller turbo that can spool and give the car more area under the curve would net better gains. I have to agree with you 100% :thumbsup Not to mention a lot more fun to drive!

Berettaspeed: I already upgraded the turbo, but I'm going to hang onto my stock one for now. It needs to be rebuilt anyways.

In summary, my thoughts are to not waste money on a bigger turbo until you've completely outgrown the one you have. That has worked well for me and saved me some cash to boot. In fact I think the best turbo for a street car is the smallest turbo you can get away with and still make great power. :thumbsup

jbiscuit
11-29-2005, 10:52 AM
I think the best turbo for a street car is the smallest turbo you can get away with and still make great power. :thumbsup

my wagon is a perfect example of that. I have literally maximized every bolt on mod possible without cheanging out the turbo or factory boost control solenoid and tried to keep the car a fun, reliable daily driver. I have done that. The car does VERY well from a roll (not an AWD subaru's strong point), a dig etc

The car isn't the fastest subaru around or even on this board for that matter but it does OK. Several people have been in the car and were impressed with its performance. After all, it is just a station wagon.
:)

Syclone0044
11-29-2005, 11:02 AM
Yeah J, I think there's a lot to be said about streetability and driveability that DOESN'T show up in peak horsepower/torque numbers, or even ET/MPH numbers. The whole "area under the curve" thing, part throttle boost, etc. Two cars can run the same time at the track but one can "feel" a ton faster on the street and be more fun to drive. Dennis "95 TA" has a lot to say on this subject as he's gone to great lengths in that regard, with his car. (Too bad he doesnt post anymore :( )

jbiscuit
11-29-2005, 11:13 AM
well said. A street car to me should retain daily drivabilty features. It should be able to idle in rush hour. It should have space for groceries. It should be able to run on pump gas and in august in 80% humidity you should have air. Thats all part of making a car fun. My car is a friggin dog on the A/C but it still retains it in case I need it.

here is my formula for the ultimate daily driver street car set up:

AWD
turbo 4cyl
larger displacement (2.2L or above)
manual trans (5 or 6 speed)
stock flywheel for driveability
turbo that runs around 18-20psi on pump gas...around 280-300awhp ±
factory-style EM (reflash etc)
A/C intact
power window/locks
CD player with decent stereo
must be able to hold 2 sets of golf clubs
all seat belts intact
no roll cage (IMO that is not factory so it shouldn't be present)
suspension mods (adjustable coilover suspension/sway bars)
all season radials
aluminum wheels
brake upgrade

thats the basic formula I think would make a good daily driven fun car. With a competent driver, the car will go 12's all day, tear up on ramps and snow storms. You will have a BLAST in the snow and still be able to haul the groceries and golf clubs

jbiscuit
11-29-2005, 11:13 AM
by the way, riding in a 300whp AWD car is VERY fun...

Crawlin
11-29-2005, 11:58 AM
tube chassis, monster big block, and a lenco... street car, and read this month's Hot Rod to have it proven :) hahaha

jbiscuit
11-29-2005, 12:14 PM
"daily driver" is a phrase missing from that car

Crawlin
11-29-2005, 12:24 PM
hehe :) oh come on

jbiscuit
11-29-2005, 12:39 PM
streetable sure....daily driver. No way. Driving that car would be like having sex with a girl with one leg. Sure you could do it a few times but after that you just can't do it anymore. :durr

TopStreetDsm
11-29-2005, 01:30 PM
Every thing that I have seen makes me want to agree with you Josh for the most part. Alot of the setups people are running are over kill. I know plenty of people who like to have the bigger turbos and what not for power potential in the future. Others like to brag.

The flow some of these little multi valve motors have is fairly insane, allowing the ability to go into the high HP numbers on pump gas even. Many people have have their plans set and pick a good turbo. I have seen many small motor imports making 300-500hp and getting it nice and fast. These numbers are plenty potent for 11s or 12s 1/4's.

Big motors definitly make it easier but to have good results from a small motor is definitly doable.

As an example... A Garrett GT28RS I have personally seen make 420whp on a dsm. These are not rated for more than 340 by Garrett and will spool on a 2.0L around 2.5k or less and hold strong almost to redline at 7.5k ish...

Again you throw in every other factor and Im sure there is someone out there who could screw even that up. (tune, manifold design, 467,000 mile motor that should not do anything but die.)

I would say if you want to get really exact about it, Figure out where in the rpm band you want your power, and where you are redlining. Then fiqure the flow your motor has at these two points and try to find a compressor map which has what you want.

Jake
Top Street

Syclone0044
11-29-2005, 02:17 PM
As an example... A Garrett GT28RS I have personally seen make 420whp on a dsm. These are not rated for more than 340 by Garrett and will spool on a 2.0L around 2.5k or less and hold strong almost to redline at 7.5k ish... Wow!! :stare Details??? What was the secret? That's awesome. :thumbsup

Crawlin
11-29-2005, 02:28 PM
streetable sure....daily driver. No way. Driving that car would be like having sex with a girl with one leg. Sure you could do it a few times but after that you just can't do it anymore. :durr

hot girl with one leg? what's the prob? and why stop?

Cleveland Dave
11-29-2005, 02:36 PM
hot girl with one leg? what's the prob? and why stop?

yeah i see no reason to stop either.

nismodave
11-29-2005, 04:51 PM
Here is the link to the ONE turbo I run on my 2.0 SR20DET.

GT25/40R Turbo (http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=GRT-TBO-003&Category_Code=GRT)

I do run 264/272 cam setup and the car pulls hard all the way to 7700.

The car does not seem laggy to me, you just have to know how to drive it. ;)

ProjectCamaro
11-29-2005, 04:59 PM
oh wow... where the heck have you been. "forced induction; the replacement for displacement" ;)

You wish, there's nothing like the torque of a 5.7 liter V8. :headbang


Are you the guy I met at TCF Bank?

fireguyrick
11-29-2005, 05:39 PM
[QUOTE=ProjectCamaro]You wish, there's nothing like the torque of a 5.7 liter V8. :headbang QUOTE]


So the 416awtq that my car puts down must be nothing huh? Oh yeah, that is on an engine with less then 1/2 the displacment, and half the cylinders then this almighty V8. Power is a money game though, so it is pointless to argue that. Maybe this spring Project Camaro can meet Project STi. I will have a little more displacment lined up, so I won't need as much of a head start. :shades

Rick

sloLs1
11-29-2005, 06:45 PM
Every thing that I have seen makes me want to agree with you Josh for the most part. Alot of the setups people are running are over kill. I know plenty of people who like to have the bigger turbos and what not for power potential in the future. Others like to brag.

The flow some of these little multi valve motors have is fairly insane, allowing the ability to go into the high HP numbers on pump gas even. Many people have have their plans set and pick a good turbo. I have seen many small motor imports making 300-500hp and getting it nice and fast. These numbers are plenty potent for 11s or 12s 1/4's.

Big motors definitly make it easier but to have good results from a small motor is definitly doable.

As an example... A Garrett GT28RS I have personally seen make 420whp on a dsm. These are not rated for more than 340 by Garrett and will spool on a 2.0L around 2.5k or less and hold strong almost to redline at 7.5k ish...

Again you throw in every other factor and Im sure there is someone out there who could screw even that up. (tune, manifold design, 467,000 mile motor that should not do anything but die.)

I would say if you want to get really exact about it, Figure out where in the rpm band you want your power, and where you are redlining. Then fiqure the flow your motor has at these two points and try to find a compressor map which has what you want.

Jake
Top Street

I strogly agree with what Jake has stated. A lot of people like big turbos just to say yea i have a t88 or whatever! I turbocharged my saturn(even god doesn't know why!) and i was running a completely stock motor with a very crude fuel setup(SDS) but it worked well. saturns come stock with a 1.9L enigne. I ran a sc61 .60/.63 turbo with a stage 4 compressor wheel. A lot of people said it wasn't going to spool for crap. well it didn't in first gear BUT that was to help with traction! It also helped let my motor rev... bigger exhaust housing flows more air. i was also running a 38mm wastegate to let my motor breath after i reached full boost. Think about the hondas that rev well past 7000k rpm... you can free up HP by letting your engine breath once it reaches full boost! If i was rolling i could achieve max boost of 8 psi at about 4000 rpm. it was great for a DD because it was easy to stay out of boost and conserve gas. PICKING YOUR TURBO SIZE REALLY DEPENDS ON YOUR SETUP AND HOW IT IS GOING TO BE USED!!! all you have to do is do a little research on compressor maps and you'll find what your looking for! GOOD LUCK!!!

Bee
11-29-2005, 07:39 PM
well forget the other 4 cyl motors. honduhs have this VTEC thingy that can really spool a big big turbo at high rpms. honduhs don't have much power down low anyhow so that is why we like to use big big turbos because the honduh Vtec make big big power on the very high high end. so we make big big power. mr. cyclone you don't need to be asking those questions.. you need to ask why honduhs and other fwd put out so much power on big turbos..no traction = bullsh1t.. and for the awd people you need to ask them that even if they have awd their 4cyl wont last for sh1t... truth is don't all the 4cyl just often blow to cr@p under big boost on big big turbosss........ ;)

how was my ebonics...hehe!!! :thumbsup

Junky Giorgio
11-29-2005, 08:07 PM
aren't you still in the 13's? so i'd say that it really didn't replace my displacement :)

you and i both know why my car still only made it in the 13's....but oh well next year!

Crawlin
11-29-2005, 08:25 PM
i keep telling myself that every year, haha

nismodave
11-29-2005, 08:40 PM
you need to ask why honduhs and other fwd put out so much power on big turbos..no traction = bullsh1t.. and for the awd people you need to ask them that even if they have awd their 4cyl wont last for sh1t... :thumbsup


What about 4 cyl RWD???? :durr

sloLs1
11-29-2005, 09:29 PM
well forget the other 4 cyl motors. honduhs have this VTEC thingy that can really spool a big big turbo at high rpms. honduhs don't have much power down low anyhow so that is why we like to use big big turbos because the honduh Vtec make big big power on the very high high end. so we make big big power. mr. cyclone you don't need to be asking those questions.. you need to ask why honduhs and other fwd put out so much power on big turbos..no traction = bullsh1t.. and for the awd people you need to ask them that even if they have awd their 4cyl wont last for sh1t... truth is don't all the 4cyl just often blow to cr@p under big boost on big big turbosss........ ;)

how was my ebonics...hehe!!! :thumbsup


My EVO seems to being doing just fine!!! it takes everything i throw at it! Plus my Saturn never blew up! Maybe i just have good luck(knock on wood!) J/K i do know what yea mean... a motor can only with stand sooo much abuse for such an amount of time. Same thing with v-8 stroker motors... or nitrous... they will only last for soo long but it is fun a$$ hell while it lasts!

Russ Jerome
11-29-2005, 11:10 PM
EvolvedRegal and Russ Jerome: I've heard the same thing repeated all the time, and in my experience it's just not true (or the effect is grossly overexaggerated.)

"Your" setup may have exeption's but today's case in point:

My present daily driver (90 turbovan) is a bone stock
2.5 Turbo weighing in at over 3000# with a little tiny stock Mitz
turbo of the TEO4H family. At 15psi the stock 2.5 feels "peppy",
swap it out with a t-3/4 with a 60 trim and a .63/stage3 and the
van will simply roll tires all day on onramp at EXACT SAME 15PSI!

This is not seat of the pant's guesswork, I have run this exact same
setup at GLD and traction in my street tire setups are only drawback.

Turbo's are fickel, what works with one IC setup and intake may
not work on another. The only true test is running EXACT same
setup down GLD with no other changes.

I dont condone BIG turbo's, stock turbos are great for there application
but cooler air equals amazing HP (less knock) potential. Same argument
could be had with "better flowing" or "better cooling" intercooler.

I would rather roll out of hole with street tires and pump gas to a
low to flat 12.0/120 than smoke hides to a 13.0/115 myself, actualy
saves parts and $ (got to drive to work in morning ya know!).

EvolvedRegal
11-29-2005, 11:19 PM
well forget the other 4 cyl motors. honduhs have this VTEC thingy that can really spool a big big turbo at high rpms. honduhs don't have much power down low anyhow so that is why we like to use big big turbos because the honduh Vtec make big big power on the very high high end. so we make big big power. mr. cyclone you don't need to be asking those questions.. you need to ask why honduhs and other fwd put out so much power on big turbos..no traction = bullsh1t.. and for the awd people you need to ask them that even if they have awd their 4cyl wont last for sh1t... truth is don't all the 4cyl just often blow to cr@p under big boost on big big turbosss........ ;)

how was my ebonics...hehe!!! :thumbsup

And no other cars have anything like VTEC right? Nissan was the first to come out with a "VTEC" type valvetrain. I have a AWD, so i guess i should be looking for a new motor right now since they don't last. What happens is there is a weak point somewhere from the engine to the ground and in any dsm or evo that happens to be the t-case, my problem has already been taken care of. Shep tranny and TRE t-case, not likely to break even with a 6k dump.

And no 4cyls wont blow under heavy boost with the proper set-up. I have run up to 31psi w/meth and no leaking or head problems, still has the stock HG also. It's how the car is prepped and tuned. Id rather have a very linear power band then a balls out do or die dyno graph which seems to be the norm on here.

90% of the people on here have never built a domestic or import motor and see how much they differ from another but yet very similar. Most people do the bolt-on path because it's what someone else has told them to get, very little time has been research. A lot of people say that AEM EMS is the way to go, I think otherwise. I have developed a new algorithim to my new speed density set-up still utilizing the stock ecu and it feels that I make a lot more power on this set-up running a lot richer (10.2) on lower boost than my standalone set-up running in the 11.5 afr area (22psi). if you want a great standalone for half the price of the AEM look into a Hydra. Or if you want to spend big bucks go motec M800 (have one for sale all unlocked)


But back on topic, Syclone0044 the turbo maps look like ass:
http://www.enzoco.com/mike/syclone/stocker.jpg http://www.enzoco.com/mike/syclone/upgrade.jpg

What kind of upgraded turbo is this? If you want to make great power at stock displacement look into a PTE 70, it's a big turbo but with a 4.3 you should have no problem spooling that if you get cammed for it. I can hook you up with an awsome person out of MI for you. Here are some things for you:
Your stocker is a Mitsubishi TD06-17C w/8cm2 housing (very small) the regular upgrade is a Mitsubishi TD06H-20G w/14CM2 housing

Russ Jerome
11-29-2005, 11:32 PM
Wow that stock map is....well stock.
Here is a small map for you, for a 4 popper:

http://www.turbocharged.com/catalog/compmaps/Fig16.gif

theavenger333
11-30-2005, 01:37 AM
basically like you guys have all said, most times stuff is overkill. i remember when i was gonna get a DSM (god saved me on that one j/k) i heard nothing but 14b is dogchit etc. 16g was the way to go. everyone dawged it. yet the 14b is a small unit, but its there, and the motor is small. josh and i have discussed this, we agree, its more fun most of the time to learn how to properly do something, rather than swipe the credit card and put on something bigger. i'd rather hit the best power possible with a capable unit. the 4.3 is about as close to a V8 as u can get without 8 cylinders, requires a larger turbo. i've heard of WAY too many hondas throwin the same turbo josh has on H series motors, and even down to a D15. its just dumb. and costly no less

ProjectCamaro
11-30-2005, 04:24 AM
You wish, there's nothing like the torque of a 5.7 liter V8. :headbang


So the 416awtq that my car puts down must be nothing huh? Oh yeah, that is on an engine with less then 1/2 the displacment, and half the cylinders then this almighty V8. Power is a money game though, so it is pointless to argue that. Maybe this spring Project Camaro can meet Project STi. I will have a little more displacment lined up, so I won't need as much of a head start. :shades

Rick

I agree it's whoever spends more money. You can make your car faster than mine and I can make mine faster than yours. It's all a matter of what you personally prefer and I prefer V8's because they are easier to make big hp numbers in my opinon without causes engine problems. My brother on the other hand is huge into imports. He has a '98 GSX and an '02 or '03(don't remember) S2000. I have nothing but respect for a fast car no matter what it is.

Syclone0044
11-30-2005, 10:29 AM
well forget the other 4 cyl motors. honduhs have this VTEC thingy that can really spool a big big turbo at high rpms. honduhs don't have much power down low anyhow so that is why we like to use big big turbos because the honduh Vtec make big big power on the very high high end. so we make big big power. mr. cyclone you don't need to be asking those questions.. you need to ask why honduhs and other fwd put out so much power on big turbos..no traction = bullsh1t.. and for the awd people you need to ask them that even if they have awd their 4cyl wont last for sh1t... truth is don't all the 4cyl just often blow to cr@p under big boost on big big turbosss........ ;)

how was my ebonics...hehe!!! :thumbsup
:wtf Were you trying to actually say something, or just make noise in my thread? I can't even read that crap. If you have something intelligent to say, I ask that you use the SHIFT key at least once per sentence. :mad: I show you respect with the time I spend editing/proofreading my posts and capitalizing/punctuating them, I only ask that you do the same for me. I would have thought with your shop's experience you'd have something useful to contribute to this thread, why did you post this instead? :confused

jbiscuit
11-30-2005, 10:36 AM
above post =

[grabs riot gear] uh oh [/grabs riot gear]

Syclone0044
11-30-2005, 10:42 AM
"Your" setup may have exeption's but today's case in point:

My present daily driver (90 turbovan) is a bone stock
2.5 Turbo weighing in at over 3000# with a little tiny stock Mitz
turbo of the TEO4H family. At 15psi the stock 2.5 feels "peppy",
swap it out with a t-3/4 with a 60 trim and a .63/stage3 and the
van will simply roll tires all day on onramp at EXACT SAME 15PSI! Hey Russ. I think our opinions on the topic are actually the same. I wrote:

"In my opinion, you'll only get REAL gains (the kind worth paying money for) if your existing turbo is an extreme bottleneck (for instance a stock turbo on a vehicle with upgraded heads/cam, or poorly sized stock turbo from the factory)"

... It sounds like your example falls under the latter category, is that possible? I know my 90 Turbo Grand Prix is the exact same way, the tiny stock T25 turbo (one of the smallest I've seen) is absolutely taxed at 12 PSI on this 3.1L engine. I am sure if I ever upgraded the turbo it would probably be a screamer at even 2 PSI less boost!

PS: Your Turbovan sounds pretty cool! :thumbsup

number1
11-30-2005, 12:57 PM
The statement about volume of air is correct, more air at the same pressure = horsepower. The biggest problem is spool time because of compressor sizing. With a newer designs of the turbo charger can facilitate spool and greatly reduce lag, for example ball bearing turbos and garrett VNT turbo chargers. The turbo themselves can be larger for more air flow, but still produce the same personalities of a smaller, less developed turbo.

FourEyedFord
11-30-2005, 04:43 PM
What about this compressor map? :durr

FourEyedFord
11-30-2005, 04:44 PM
Sorry, I really don't know what any of that means. I just wanted to post a compressor map. How would you read this Josh?

EvolvedRegal
11-30-2005, 05:08 PM
Looks more like a supercharger pic, that thing can flow a hell of a lot of air. 70/lbs per min and it's right at it's peak eff.

FourEyedFord
11-30-2005, 06:01 PM
Looks more like a supercharger pic, that thing can flow a hell of a lot of air. 70/lbs per min and it's right at it's peak eff.


Yes, it is for a vortech ys-trim supercharger. How do you read the map, and what rpm is that 70lbs at? A lot of people push these blowers into the 70,000 rpm range, what does that mean in flow? Looks like the map doesn't show that high.

Russ Jerome
11-30-2005, 06:43 PM
Hey Russ. I think our opinions on the topic are actually the same. I wrote:

"In my opinion, you'll only get REAL gains (the kind worth paying money for) if your existing turbo is an extreme bottleneck (for instance a stock turbo on a vehicle with upgraded heads/cam, or poorly sized stock turbo from the factory)"



Yup agreed with your post 100%.

Another issue people dont realize when sizing a turbo is the
AR of the turbine itself, most overturbo'ed cars run a tight
AR on hot side to spool the pig. Again the oversized turbine
(not allowing hot expanding gass's to exit freely) actualy
negate the larger comp wheels ability to flow and still heat
the air. Its a careful balancing act and a huge intercooler
will only act as a bandaid to cool overheated air and cause
more restriction than when they started...make sense?

I cheat, I research guys with my setup making over 450hp
and find out who is happy with there street spool with the
same turbo that they dynoed with :) Unfortunatly my present
Starlet projects "new" turbo was purchased 4 years ago...lots
change over time and it's dated today!

Russ Jerome
11-30-2005, 06:47 PM
How would you read this Josh?

Here is a basic read:
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/turboflow.html

TopStreetDsm
12-01-2005, 03:18 AM
Here is a basic read:
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/turboflow.html

Hey Russ! I have seen you down at the track before. If I am not mistaken... You were boosting your old minivan (WITH A TRAILER WITH YOUR OMNI ON IT) next to me on the freeway. Freakin awesome!
Anyways, I love that site. Most people will not take the time or have the desire to gain the knowledge which is on there.

Anyhow, I think a turbo is "one of" the last things that should be desided on when setting up a "good setup" is the turbo. More I believe the very first thing should be "What Is Your Goal?" Power, Times, Increasing VE to achieve better gas mileage... Big or small shoot from there.

A couple by the ways...
-The 420hp figure on those GT28RS turbos is not uncommon. I got the chance to drive Jeff Simon's (Simons CPR) turbo 1000cc snowmobile. That this was something to the affect of 410-415hp on that turbo.
-And, Thank you for putting a tech related thread in this section.
-Numbers will get you 90% of the way. The rest is just doing it.

You still have a seat reserved as "OFFICIAL LAPTOP HOLDER" :rolf

Jake
Top Street

EVIL AWD
12-01-2005, 06:03 PM
I think that alot of the turbo setups on imports are overkill for guys running stock motors and 8-10psi with a T3/T4, sure they'd be way better off with a 16G for streetability. I think the reason a lot of the import owners that know what they are doing and actually making good power decide to go with big turbos is because of their power potential. Another factor is them not knowing for sure what they want out of the car and wanting a turbo that will also support future power urges.. It would suck to spend big bucks on a turbo that is super effecient for your current setup but then 6 months down the road you decide you want more power and now you have to purchase another turbo because the one you just bought can not push enough air. Another thing to consider is a lot of the smaller import engines are reved to 8,500+ RPM's and even if you don't reach full boost until 5,000 RPM you still have 3,500+ RPM's of powerband at full boost. Now on your V8 that redlines at 5,500 RPM's you have to have full boost by 2,000 RPM's to have the same amount of powerband under full boost. Full boost is only a downshift away and our cars regularly cruise near 4,000 RPM's anyway. With over 500hp I prefer a turbo that is effeicent and not having to "work" so hard. Could I accomplish the same power goals with a slighly smaller turbo and increase spool time by a few hundred RPM's, yes, but I do not like the idea of pushing my turbo to it's limits. I think the turbo will last a lot longer if it doesn't have to "work" so hard. But what do I know. :thumbsup

sloLs1
12-01-2005, 07:35 PM
I think that alot of the turbo setups on imports are overkill for guys running stock motors and 8-10psi with a T3/T4, sure they'd be way better off with a 16G for streetability. I think the reason a lot of the import owners that know what they are doing and actually making good power decide to go with big turbos is because of their power potential. Another factor is them not knowing for sure what they want out of the car and wanting a turbo that will also support future power urges.. It would suck to spend big bucks on a turbo that is super effecient for your current setup but then 6 months down the road you decide you want more power and now you have to purchase another turbo because the one you just bought can not push enough air. Another thing to consider is a lot of the smaller import engines are reved to 8,500+ RPM's and even if you don't reach full boost until 5,000 RPM you still have 3,500+ RPM's of powerband at full boost. Now on your V8 that redlines at 5,500 RPM's you have to have full boost by 2,000 RPM's to have the same amount of powerband under full boost. Full boost is only a downshift away and our cars regularly cruise near 4,000 RPM's anyway. With over 500hp I prefer a turbo that is effeicent and not having to "work" so hard. Could I accomplish the same power goals with a slighly smaller turbo and increase spool time by a few hundred RPM's, yes, but I do not like the idea of pushing my turbo to it's limits. I think the turbo will last a lot longer if it doesn't have to "work" so hard. But what do I know. :thumbsup


:thumbsup agreed!

Russ Jerome
12-01-2005, 08:56 PM
Hey Russ! I have seen you down at the track before. If I am not mistaken... You were boosting your old minivan (WITH A TRAILER WITH YOUR OMNI ON IT) next to me on the freeway. Freakin awesome!


Thanks man, hard to miss a minivan with an RFL/BOV !
Got a second one, clean gandpa model with running boards ;)

Blackhawk01
12-02-2005, 06:58 AM
Syclone,

There's a guy who lives down the road from me. He transplanted 4.2L inline 6 out of a new Trailblazer into his 66 Nova. Put a big GT4788 turbo on it and a rather large front mount cooler. At 23psi he's pushing 1200hp, and the motor is pretty much bulletproof through all of his travels so far... He even drove it on the street for 1400+ miles in the Hot Rod Mag Drag Week this past Labor Day weekend.

Started in KC, and ended in Martin, MI. They had to drive to like 5 different towns in 5 days and make passes down the strip at each stop. Best average ET won. He ran an 8.62 @170+ on the last day of the event, but had traction issues at a few of the other tracks so he didn't win, but did pretty well.
Oh yeah, and he made his passes on true DR's, not slicks, or street et's...

Blackhawk01
12-02-2005, 07:00 AM
By the way...

I'm getting over 550hp at the rear wheel on a 1.3 liter :banana

Bee
12-04-2005, 02:25 PM
main reason why 4cyls use BIG TURBOS for BIG POWER because little turbos can't make BIG POWER in 4cyls... Most 4cyls have gearing options to spool big turbos anyhow and revs are up in the 9-10k rpms. small engines have their own powerband as does the big 8s. in the end usually the big 8s win. durh they have 3-4 times the displacement. 4cyls only often win in the weight catagory!!! other then that 4cyls are a mere dot when compared to the BIG8s.... in any case though i would still rather build 4cyls fwd due to the challenging nature ;)

some in WI w/ a fwd hit 9s damn it!!! :rolleyes:


WHEN THE AMS1000 gets tuned w/ more track time hopefully someone i know in WI will finally dip into the single digits... :thumbsup

Blackhawk01
12-04-2005, 07:21 PM
WHEN THE AMS1000 gets tuned w/ more track time hopefully someone i know in WI will finally dip into the single digits... :thumbsup


If they need help with the AMS, you might want to have them give me a call. ;)

Bee
12-05-2005, 12:31 PM
If they need help with the AMS, you might want to have them give me a call. ;)


will do bro... :thumbsup

BAD LS1
12-05-2005, 01:47 PM
Syclone,

There's a guy who lives down the road from me. He transplanted 4.2L inline 6 out of a new Trailblazer into his 66 Nova. Put a big GT4788 turbo on it and a rather large front mount cooler. At 23psi he's pushing 1200hp, and the motor is pretty much bulletproof through all of his travels so far... He even drove it on the street for 1400+ miles in the Hot Rod Mag Drag Week this past Labor Day weekend.

Started in KC, and ended in Martin, MI. They had to drive to like 5 different towns in 5 days and make passes down the strip at each stop. Best average ET won. He ran an 8.62 @170+ on the last day of the event, but had traction issues at a few of the other tracks so he didn't win, but did pretty well.
Oh yeah, and he made his passes on true DR's, not slicks, or street et's...

I seen a couple pics of that car in hot rod like a year ago, it was acutally the 3.5L I5 out of a colorado though wasnt it??? i could be wrong, i just remember it beinga Vortec inline motor and the sheet metal intake and the turbo the size of the front wheels on it LOL

Blackhawk01
12-05-2005, 07:22 PM
It might have been. But he called me about running an AMS boost controller just a month or so ago, and he said he's running a big turbo on a 4.2 out of a Trailblazer/Envoy.

Bee
12-05-2005, 07:58 PM
It might have been. But he called me about running an AMS boost controller just a month or so ago, and he said he's running a big turbo on a 4.2 out of a Trailblazer/Envoy.


see syclone.. even a 4.2L needs a BIIIGGG TURBO.... why shouldn't a 1.8L need a BIGGG TURBO??? hehe just screwing with you!!!

someone should try superchargering a 4cyl..... :confused I know I wouldn't!!! Done a few s-chargers back in the day and only felt like a hair quicker......felt like an allmotor feel instead of real boost gutt feeling type of deal!!! someone prove me wrong and build one!!! :goof :shades

Syclone0044
12-07-2005, 01:12 PM
Another thing to consider is a lot of the smaller import engines are reved to 8,500+ RPM's and even if you don't reach full boost until 5,000 RPM you still have 3,500+ RPM's of powerband at full boost. Now on your V8 that redlines at 5,500 RPM's you have to have full boost by 2,000 RPM's to have the same amount of powerband under full boost. Full boost is only a downshift away and our cars regularly cruise near 4,000 RPM's anyway. That's a great point I never thought about, man. :thumbsup Makes a lot of sense!


With over 500hp I prefer a turbo that is effeicent and not having to "work" so hard. Could I accomplish the same power goals with a slighly smaller turbo and increase spool time by a few hundred RPM's, yes, but I do not like the idea of pushing my turbo to it's limits. I think the turbo will last a lot longer if it doesn't have to "work" so hard. But what do I know. :thumbsup On my daily driver the stock turbo has 172,000 miles and for the last 60,000 I have been running it at the absolute limit (the car gets slower if I run any more boost) which according to the T25 flow map I could find, is somewhere between 150,000-200,000 RPM :stare And it still works fine. Regular Mobil1 oil changes and I don't beat on it when it's cold, so that might have helped. But the point is I try to run all my turbos to their limits and haven't had much problem... Although come to think of it -- I did the same thing on my Syclone and with 35,000 miles (only about 20,000 of high boost), the stock turbo felt like it had a lot of shaft play when I pulled it off. So I guess I'm undecided there.

Syclone0044
12-07-2005, 01:16 PM
There's a guy who lives down the road from me. He transplanted 4.2L inline 6 out of a new Trailblazer into his 66 Nova. Put a big GT4788 turbo on it and a rather large front mount cooler. At 23psi he's pushing 1200hp, and the motor is pretty much bulletproof through all of his travels so far... He even drove it on the street for 1400+ miles in the Hot Rod Mag Drag Week this past Labor Day weekend. Wow, that's awesome! :headbang When the GM 4.2L DOHC Inline 6 came out, immediately I was thinking of the Supra motor and wondering if the results would be similar on this motor if turbocharged. I guess so! How did he get camshafts ground for that motor? Or does he still have the stock cam? I'm wondering what type of (forced induction capable) engine management could handle that motor along with it's exhaust cam phasing etc. Got a link I can read more about this interesting project?


Started in KC, and ended in Martin, MI. They had to drive to like 5 different towns in 5 days and make passes down the strip at each stop. Best average ET won. He ran an 8.62 @170+ on the last day of the event, but had traction issues at a few of the other tracks so he didn't win, but did pretty well. Is he on here anywhere? http://www.hotrod.com/eventcoverage/113_dragweeks_05_day5/

Blackhawk01
12-08-2005, 06:18 AM
He runs the BigStuff3.

He's driving the 66 nova wagon in the sm block power adder class. Way ahead of anybody else. But for some reason it says they didn't make a run in MI.
Maybe I misunderstood when I talked to him?

Looks like 8.82 was the best he ran in the competition not an 8.62. I know he said something about going 170 though, maybe it wasn't at this event. Oh well, still not bad for Mickey Drag Radials, and no boost control...

Blackhawk01
12-08-2005, 06:20 AM
I run a GT61 on my bike. It's extremely efficient even in the mid 30# range...

550+rwhp on a 1.3 liter with intake temps in the 65 degree range can't be wrong...